February 03, 2008

Well the Dolphins can breathe now. Its like I said earlier this year, it doesn't matter what your record is up to the superbowl, cause if you don't win it all, it doesn't mean a thing.

posted by ok5561 at 09:11 PM on February 03, 2008

Eli has arrived, gutsy, heads up football by a underdog quarterback and team. Congrats to Patriots for super season and memorable Super Bowl.

posted by Nakeman at 09:12 PM on February 03, 2008

Despite being a Dolphins fan I was rooting for the Pats, because I always pull for the AFC, but when I saw Manning escape three guys who had handfuls of his jersey and then throw a pass that Tyree caught with one hand and his helmet I knew something special was about to happen. A great game and I enjoyed it all. Congratulations to the Giants - doing it the hard way all year long.

posted by Mr Bismarck at 09:14 PM on February 03, 2008

Carl is gonna be happy.

posted by catfish at 09:17 PM on February 03, 2008

The best season in NFL history was just knocked off by one of the best Super Bowls. Eli Manning's escape and pass to David Tyree goes right up there with The Catch as one of the great plays of all time. What a stunner.

posted by rcade at 09:23 PM on February 03, 2008

I thought the turning point was going to be the 12 men on the field challenge call on the punt that gave the Pats a first down. It just seemed fated that that drive would end in a touchdown. Shades of Marty McSorley's stick in the 1993 Stanley Cup Finals. But the Giants weathered that one. Very entertaining game in the 4th quarter (at least for those of us without a strong rooting interest).

posted by holden at 09:27 PM on February 03, 2008

" I need more confetti" - David Tyree

posted by catfish at 09:29 PM on February 03, 2008

I was surprised to see Eli take the MVP - two fourth quarter touchdowns is the sort of strong finish that pushes you to the front of the voter's minds. I guess you can't give the award to "The Giants Pass Rush" though.

posted by Mr Bismarck at 09:31 PM on February 03, 2008

Evil is vanquished.

posted by THX-1138 at 09:36 PM on February 03, 2008

but when I saw Manning escape three guys who had handfuls of his jersey and then throw a pass that Tyree caught with one hand and his helmet I knew something special was about to happen. That was a special play (and the second time Manning escaped from a sure sack - the first time he "overthrew" Burress). As good as that play was, I think the story of the game was the Giant's D-Line overpowering a superlative Pats O-line. And just points out how important that O-line has been all season long.

posted by cjets at 09:39 PM on February 03, 2008

Was not impressed with Belichick's after game interview. What's his problem?

posted by Nakeman at 09:45 PM on February 03, 2008

Well, so much as for the best dynasty, best team in the history of the league, etc.... It is all for naught. The G-men showed how they outperformed the playoff teams in the NFC, by DEFENSE. The did it to Garcia, Romo, Farve, and now Brady. No QB likes to get hit that much. I wonder now if they will qustion Tom Brady for the boot and flowers. Or for having a hot girlfriend as being too big of a distraction? Rule # 11 - we don't need no celbrity QB's. Congrats to the Giants.

posted by Mickster at 09:46 PM on February 03, 2008

First of all this had to be the best superbowl of all time. Eli Manning did the impossible and the play that stood out in the whole game was when he escaped the grasp of 3 or 4 Pats defenders trying to sack him. If the Patriots sacked him then, I believe they could have won because that was a huge completion that Eli threw. Anyway, the Giants D and Eli Manning showed a lot of heart and they deserved to win. In the future, I will not be rooting for the Patriots and Brady any more because they had a chance to be the greatest team of all time and they couldn't pull it off. My favourite team is the Ravens so it doesn't even matter. Last year, Peyton and this year Eli win the Super Bowl. Who's going to be next for the Mannings their children?

posted by Scars at 09:52 PM on February 03, 2008

It was classic watching Bill B. leave the field before the game was over. Down go the Pats. Wow. Classic. Didn't watch the post game - did he actually even face the media and congratulate his opponents ?

posted by cixelsyd at 09:55 PM on February 03, 2008

bigrotty said: Tiki Barber..... where are you?

He is stinking up The Today Show. The best part of not having cable is that I am no longer subjected to his move into journalism. Here he is discussing how he is still a Giant.

rcade said: What a stunner.

Yeah, I'll be saving the text message I sent an hour and a half before the game where I called a Giants 3 point victory. I actually called the Giants winning 34-31 but, hey, I called it the team and the spread. Great game. Congrats to the Giants and their fans!

posted by geekyguy at 10:00 PM on February 03, 2008

I thought the G-Men had lost it when they utterly abandoned the blitz on the 2nd Half NE touchdown drive. Then Manning made his move, and the G-Men held out. Congrats to the New York Giants.

posted by Bonkers at 10:03 PM on February 03, 2008

Belicheat, Belichoke, Beligone ....

posted by cixelsyd at 10:06 PM on February 03, 2008

I can die happy now!!! What a game!!! Im glad my dad got to see that one... Couldnt be happier... What a game!! Did I say that already??? Oh well... What a game!~

posted by firecop at 10:19 PM on February 03, 2008

bigrotty said: Tiki Barber..... where are you? He is stinking up The Today Show. The best part of not having cable is that I am no longer subjected to his move into journalism. Here he is discussing how he is still a Giant. Tiki Barber is now the poster child for addition by subtraction. Subtract Tiki Barber. Add Super Bowl Ring.

posted by cjets at 10:20 PM on February 03, 2008

Awesome game. One of the best ever. The last quarter and the last drive by the Giants was incredible. I can't wait to read the "Sports Guy" react to this this week. These type of games are why all of us on this site are passionaite about sports.

posted by erkno11 at 10:28 PM on February 03, 2008

Congrats to the Giants. It seems they were the first team that actually THOUGHT they could outplay the Patriots' offensive line and made that their game plan, blitzes and all. It proves that no position or unit is invincable to an all-out winner-takes-all challenge...which is the only thing that won it for the gritty Giants. Like the Good Book says, "Let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. It was good to see good football beat up by better football. I enjoyed the cameras staying on Brady during his whimpy little sideline pouts and rants.

posted by JayLBird at 10:32 PM on February 03, 2008

I read in several places that the "fast track" in Arizona would benefit the Patriots' offense. Looks like it really helped members of the Giants D-line (who really didn't seem to get much traction on the field in Green Bay two weeks ago) as much or more. As a total unrelated aside: Does anybody else see bigrotty's screen name and read "bigotry"? Of course, this is coming from the guy who reads budman13's posts in his head in the voice of Duffman for no good reason, so take it with a grain of salt.

posted by holden at 10:41 PM on February 03, 2008

Now that's funny holden because when I write them I'm doing his voice in my head too....Oh no...Duffman can't breath. Great game. Eli escaping and Tyree making that catch was amazing. Gotta love that Giant pass rush too.

posted by budman13 at 10:50 PM on February 03, 2008

On the NFL Network, Osi Umenyiora of the Giants just said, "18-and-1 -- let them go trademark that." Sweet.

posted by rcade at 11:07 PM on February 03, 2008

Wow. Just...wow. I was finally getting used to the fact that the Giants were actually in the Super Bowl and now this. Behold the power of the billboard.

posted by goddam at 11:20 PM on February 03, 2008

two comments: -Bill B walking off the field with 1 sec left on the clock is one of the most gutless things I have ever seen in sports. I have seen players do it but never a coach. Burn in hell Bill. - I watched Archie Manning play for the Saints for a number of years. He got his ass kicked for some of the worst team ever put together in NFL history. Archie was one of the best QBs ever to play that noone ever noticed. Truly what goes around comes around.

posted by whodat at 12:27 AM on February 04, 2008

One of the best Super Bowls. Too many "stories within a story" to go into but everything played out in grand fashion. Kudos to both teams for fantastic seasons and hats off to Eli for not letting the naysayers get to him. Now all he needs is a supermodel girlfriend.

posted by sandskater at 01:11 AM on February 04, 2008

Bill B walking off the field with 1 sec left on the clock is one of the most gutless things I have ever seen in sports. I have seen players do it but never a coach. Burn in hell Bill. Doesn't even rank in the top 10. Number 1 is the Detroit Pistons "bad boys" (Thomas, Laimbeer, Vinnie Johnson etal) sulking off the court and into the locker room with like a minute and a half left in the blowout that was the fourth game sweep in the playoffs by Jordan's ascendant Bulls in 1991. They wouldn't even look at the Bulls bench, let alone congratulate them after the Bulls had tried for years to beat the Pistons in the playoffs. Isiah Thomas has the least class of any sports figure in American sports. Congratulations to the Giants.

posted by sic at 03:18 AM on February 04, 2008

Who's going to be next for the Mannings their children? Shemp Manning, the lesser known Manning who decided not to get into football because he was really sold on Extreme Long Division as a big upcoming 'sport' in the US. He's not very coordinated and is deemed legally blind in 27 states (and Puerto Rico) but the AP reports that he was signed by the Falcons late last night.

posted by jerseygirl at 05:59 AM on February 04, 2008

I really doubt people's first inclination after the game was, "I need to go say congrats to Giant fans on a website like RIGHT NOW!" Sorry, I thought everyone was as naturally punctual as yourself. That said, I can't help but get the feeling there would have been a server crash with at least 10 Pats fans posting a thread titled Perfect! all at once. Know what I mean? You should also cut me a little slack, this is the first time all season I've been able to take a legit jab at the Pats or their fans for losing.

posted by Prophite at 06:25 AM on February 04, 2008

That said, I can't help but get the feeling there would have been a server crash with at least 10 Pats fans posting a thread titled Perfect! all at once. Know what I mean? I don't know if we even have 10 die hard Patriots fans that have front page posting privileges, now that I think of it. But generally, we try not to be that kind of site. If I were to guess, the people you ran into previously were probably drive-by commenters and not invested members of the site. Also, for a twist of irony, poster of this thread Joey Michaels is actually a big Patriots fan.

posted by jerseygirl at 06:57 AM on February 04, 2008

this is a comeuppance that hits so hard unborn Patriots fan grandchildren will know the pang of loss Word. It's not even the loss, because there's nothing to complain about, they got outplayed and beat. It's that we now have to listen to the Schadenfrued Brigade. I get the feeling Rod Woodson woke up beaming this morning after spending yesterday arguing Brady was an average QB in a lucky situation. Because he sure looked it yesterday against the Giants relentless pressure. As for Belichick walking off the field, poor sportsmanship is certainly one way to look at it. As a complete homer Pats fan, I saw it as a guy looking at a field covered in media and fans and accepting they got beat. It's not like he ran straight to the dressing room. But of course that doesn't fit the popular narrative, so have at him.

posted by yerfatma at 07:46 AM on February 04, 2008

The tone was set on the first play when the Giants rushed through and knocked Brady down. The Giants defense played the game of their lives last night. Even though they were gassed in the 4th quarter, they made life tough on Brady. I kept watching the game thinking New England would throw it into gear and start scoring points but the Giants defense held their ground. It was a game where you couldn't take your eyes off what was going on. A very good game and one of the best Super Bowls in a long long time. Congrats to Eli and the Giants for slaying the dragon.

posted by dbt302 at 07:57 AM on February 04, 2008

My thoughts from yesterday's game: If I was giving out the MVP, it would have gone to the Giants' defensive line. Manning had a nice game and made some great plays to win the game in the 4th quarter, but the pressure up front in Brady's face all night is the reason they were in it in the first place. They were incredible. The challenge on the 12 men on the field call was the turning point in the game. The call may have been technically correct when corrected, and the Patriots may have won that, but challenging such a minute thing regarding a player who had no impact in the play was so bush league that it killed their karma. Oh, and the referee's "After further review *drops flag*, the Giants had 12 men on the field," was classic. I don't have a problem with Belichick running up the tunnel at the end. He congratulated Coughlin. He may have not even realized that the game was over. Or he may have. I do think in that situation that the losing coach should be able to concede the last couple seconds if he wants. Great game.

posted by bender at 08:48 AM on February 04, 2008

That said, I can't help but get the feeling there would have been a server crash with at least 10 Pats fans posting a thread titled Perfect! all at once. Know what I mean? You should also cut me a little slack, this is the first time all season I've been able to take a legit jab at the Pats or their fans for losing. Comment icon posted by Prophite at 6:25 AM CST on February 4 I've heard of being bitter in defeat, but bitter in victory? That's a new one.

posted by sic at 08:58 AM on February 04, 2008

10 points after 3 quarters of play? That isn't very entertaining. I thought the game was compelling; although as a football fan first and an American football fan second my entertainment isn't tied to the amount scoring. I was fascinated by the constant effort of the Giants defence to ensure the Patriots didn't run away while their own offence was struggling.

posted by Mr Bismarck at 09:04 AM on February 04, 2008

10 points after 3 quarters of play? That isn't very entertaining. If entertainment equates to points scored then yeah it was a snoozer. Most people were crediting the Week 17 game as the best of the season and despite it being the polar opposite offensively the Super Bowl was as entertaining of a game for me. was so bush league that it killed their karma Karma? How free-spirited of you. I figured some Patriots fan must have shifted in their seat the wrong way to seal the final score. It's cheap. It's unsportsmanlike. Except when it works out for my team though, right? C'mon. There are easier ways to hate on someone.

posted by YukonGold at 09:07 AM on February 04, 2008

I thought the G-Men had lost it when they utterly abandoned the blitz on the 2nd Half NE touchdown drive. Then Manning made his move, and the G-Men held out. They didn't abandon the blitz that drive...Brady just got rid of the ball early that drive because the Giants forgot to cover the quick underneath stuff. The blitzes were coming, they just never got there Tiki Barber is now the poster child for addition by subtraction. This team went to the SB with Tiki. If last years Giants would have got the QB play of THIS years Giants, they could have won the SB too. The difference in the Giants this year isn't "addition by subtraction" by losing Tiki....It's the performance of their QB down the stretch (which they didn't have the past few years) Yes, he fought through the crowd to congratulate Coughlan. Hugged him actually, which was nice. Seems to respect him. 10 points after 3 quarters of play? That isn't very entertaining. It is for people who appreciate defensive struggles (just like some people prefer 1-0 pitchers duals to 10-8 slugfests). I happen to prefer them like this actually. The call may have been technically correct when corrected, and the Patriots may have won that, but challenging such a minute thing regarding a player who had no impact in the play was so bush league that it killed their karma. Crazy. He wants to WIN the game and it was an ILLEGAL play (thus the flag). I didn't realize you could challenge it, but given you can there isn't a coach in the NFL, had they recognized it, wouldn't have made the same call.

posted by bdaddy at 09:11 AM on February 04, 2008

Petty was the best halftime act ever.

posted by garfield at 09:16 AM on February 04, 2008

Re: Belichick leaving early, I don't think it's quite the sin that some are making it out to be. But if his players had to stay out on the field for the last snap, then I think he should have too. I understand that he was upset and all, but I don't think he should have left his players out there.

posted by goddam at 09:28 AM on February 04, 2008

As a lifelong Giants fan, it still hasn't hit me. We won????? Good lord. Has to be one of the most memorable non-family events of my life. Whoah!

posted by BCHockey at 09:44 AM on February 04, 2008

Why did the clock continue to run after Brady threw the final incompletion? There were at least four seconds on the game clock and it ran down to one after the play was clearly over.

posted by ajaffe at 09:55 AM on February 04, 2008

I think coaches should be able to challenge calls the refs make, but not calls they don't. Otherwise they could challenge holding not being called on every play.

posted by kirkaracha at 09:59 AM on February 04, 2008

I think coaches should be able to challenge calls the refs make, but not calls they don't. Otherwise they could challenge holding not being called on every play. I think Belichick getting clarification on whether he could is testament to how the whole challenge process is built on shaky ground. There are clearly more rules to determine what can and cannot be challenged than anyone can keep straight. I highly enjoyed seeing Brady's perfect little world... Can I get Vegas over/under action on unnecessary schadenfruede comments?

posted by YukonGold at 10:05 AM on February 04, 2008

It was with great trepidation that this Pats fan opened this thread today. My fears were eased when I saw that the tone was one of congratulations to the Giants rather than mockery of the Patriots. May I add my congratulations to New York for their excellent game plan and courageous execution of same. One of the things about the Giants defense that caught my notice was the delayed rush up the middle. It accounted for a number of the hits on Brady, and even when blocked, it still deprived him of the ability to step forward and throw the deep ball. I'm surprised that New England's coaches didn't foresee this and figure out a counter move. There were a number of other calls on defense that I found strange, especially the all-out blitzing on the last drive. My personal feelings are of deep disappointment. I'm old enough to have lived for the years of Red Sox futility; having had elevated hopes in the few years when they got close, only to be denied. Now it seems to be the Patriots turn in the barrel. I can only think that if the records of the 2 teams had been reversed, that is the Giants at 18 - 0 and Pats at 13 - 6, and the outcome had been the same, Pats fans would have felt really good about their team having played so well and come so close. Alas, the reality is painful. I talked to my son last night, and only half-jokingly told him that his 4th floor dorm window is too low to jump from to kill himself, but too high to avoid injury. He would be better off just to grin and bear the anguish.

posted by Howard_T at 10:17 AM on February 04, 2008

You think this thread isn't mocking the Patriots, Howard? I'm going to disagree.

posted by jerseygirl at 10:22 AM on February 04, 2008

Another thing I realized after this game: since University of Phoenix Stadium opened and began hosting significant neutral site football games last season, the heavy underdog is 4-0. Boise State over Oklahoma Florida over Ohio State West Virginia over Oklahoma Giants over Patriots Not saying those events are related, but at least an interesting coincidence.

posted by bender at 10:24 AM on February 04, 2008

I'm using the score to indicate a lack of offense. With a lack of offense, you have less chance for lead changes. While the 4th quarter was lead-change-a-riffic, by only having one lead change in the first three quarters is what I meant by not "entertaining". I don't mind a titanic defensive struggle, but it wasn't like the defenses were making goalline stands or end-zone interceptions. I didn't see two lackluster offenses but rather two outstanding defenses. Your last examples are not necessarily indicative of a "titanic defensive struggle" but rather defenses making big plays when they need them. The defenses were so good last night that those opportunities were practically non-existent. I think we're going to just have to agree to disagree here.

posted by bender at 10:30 AM on February 04, 2008

I thought the entire game was entertaining. I couldn't believe that New York's D-line kept getting to Brady. We've seen Brady get knocked on his ass more than a few times this year, but his line always seemed to protect him when it mattered most. Even when he was getting the ball out there was a guy coming in at the same time. And I really didn't think Eli could engineer a ballsy game winning drive with 2 minutes left in the superbowl. That really surprised me.

posted by curlyelk at 11:02 AM on February 04, 2008

Perfectville is funny, yes, but I'd be quite happy to see the 72 Dolphins choke on their champagne next year. Seriously guys, you were first. Isn't that enough?

posted by Mr Bismarck at 11:20 AM on February 04, 2008

Just a thought. Maybe next year it will be an Eli/Payton Superbowl. Now that would be somthing. I just don't think it could be a Kitna/Payton game. Good bye Matt. Thank you Giants for a great game. Sorry Pats that you didn't succeed in the perfect season. Everyone will start again in August. Now let's go racin'!!!!!

posted by coach at 11:40 AM on February 04, 2008

You think this thread isn't mocking the Patriots, Howard? I'm going to disagree. Save for a few knucklehead comments and the anti-belichick sentiment it's been pretty above it all. I'll admit I have a hard time with any of that. Being a Giant fan and having an overwhelming number of friends be rooting for "the other guys" was tough. Anyone who wants to make comments of that ilk is disrespecting the game that was. In my seat I was resigned to losing - prepped myself for it all week, was gonna be no big deal. Sitting on the other side it's shock, pure shock. Foregone conclusions don't exist in football. There is no next game. You can't win 4 in a row and battle back from elimination. You have 35 seconds. They may have only scored 31 points combined but I think it was the greatest football game I ever watched.

posted by YukonGold at 12:16 PM on February 04, 2008

I must admit, I had AB-SO-LUTE-LY ZERO confidence in Eli when he came out for that final scoring drive, and after he missed Burress on that first 3rd down and got the Dumb Eli look on his face, I figured it was flat-out over. That last Giants drive was amazing to watch, but I don't think Eli deserves nearly the credit he's receiving. The play where he escapes everybody on the Pats' defense was incredible, but if not for a standout play by Tyree, that ball goes two feet above his head. I think the Giants' wide receivers saved Eli's bacon all through the second half, if there could be multiple MVP awards, I'd give 'em to to everybody who caught a ball, and Ahmad Bradshaw, who I thought did a spectacular job for a rookie, in the biggest game of the year. I'm happy to see Strahan and Toomer get their rings, and the Dolphins fan in me is happy that the legacy is intact, but I'm about tired of The Class of 1972 acting like such arrogant, childish pricks. Cut it out, you old farts, you're embarrassing yourselves! Congrats to the Pats and their fans on a spectacular 18-win season (only done 3 times in the NFL, I believe); during the regular season, your boys played professional football at a level very few have been able to attain, or sustain, for that matter. And, congratulations to the Giants and their fans. What an underdog story, and what a great way to end the NFL season. Let's play two!

posted by The_Black_Hand at 12:24 PM on February 04, 2008

My play or lack of a play was the dropped interception by Samuel during that last two minutes. He makes the INT and the game is over. The second play was the Manning escape from the three Pats defensive players. If another defender would have come in and laid a hit on him while he was in their grasp he would have gotten an unnecessary roughness penalty. Thats my perspective. All of that didn't happen so congrats to the Giants.

posted by Ironhead at 12:33 PM on February 04, 2008

If another defender would have come in and laid a hit on him while he was in their grasp he would have gotten an unnecessary roughness penalty. Thats my perspective I couldn't disagree more. If the hit was legal, not helmet to helmet and not at his knees, I don't see the refs throwing a flag on the play. You play through the whistle, or at least you're supposed to. It wasn't as though there were several Patriots players prepared to hit him and suddenly made the decision not to for fear of being penalized. He got out of the grasp of the defenders and threw long. Terrific play by Manning, spectacular catch by Tyree.

posted by ampto11 at 12:56 PM on February 04, 2008

That wacky play by Eli Manning reminded me of another guy who wore number 10 and played quarterback for the Giants, Fran Tarkenton. 10 points after 3 quarters of play? That isn't very entertaining. The Patriots averaged 36.8 points per game this season, setting the all-time record for points scored, and were 14-point favorites. The Giants' defense was great, but even during the game it was difficult to think they'd be able to hold the Patriots to two touchdowns over the entire game, and the Giants needed to score somehow, some way. It was dramatic. I don't think it came close to what Prince did in one of the hardest venues to perform well. In the rain.

posted by kirkaracha at 01:35 PM on February 04, 2008

TBH: That last Giants drive was amazing to watch, but I don't think Eli deserves nearly the credit he's receiving. The play where he escapes everybody on the Pats' defense was incredible, but if not for a standout play by Tyree, that ball goes two feet above his head. I think the Giants' wide receivers saved Eli's bacon all through the second half, if there could be multiple MVP awards, I'd give 'em to to everybody who caught a ball, and Ahmad Bradshaw, who I thought did a spectacular job for a rookie, in the biggest game of the year. What you said. That was a desperation pass and an amazing catch. Tyree richly deserves the job security he should have following this Superbowl. Not that I want to take anything away from the Giants' play -- I thought there was a lot of skill, focus, determination and talent on display by the G-men, and a pronounced absence of stupid mistakes. It was a well-earned win. I'm at a loss to explain what happened with the Pats -- it seemed like the o-line, which has received such praise this year, was ordinary (at best) in a game that really called on them to be a whole lot better. I'd call that the single biggest factor.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:46 PM on February 04, 2008

Belichick's leaving the field before the game was officially over shows that he's nothing but a classless ass. Yeah, he went and hugged TC with 1 second left on the clock... Of course, one could say that dumping the Gatorade on TC with time left on the clock is a bit presumptuous too, right?

posted by jerseygirl at 02:10 PM on February 04, 2008

Red Sox fans != Patriots fans, NY Daily News.

posted by jerseygirl at 02:17 PM on February 04, 2008

I read the NY Times myself. I'm interested in everyone's opinion on this. If the Patriots won, they would have been widely regarded as the best team ever. It's a moot point now but by that logic, does this mean the '72 Dolphins are the best team of all time because they went undefeated? I would answer that with a resounding no. I would suggest the '85 Bears or the Niners of the 80's (1984 in particular). I just find it interesting that many people thought 19-0 would have conferred "greatest Team of all time" status but you don't ever hear that about the 1972 dolphins.

posted by cjets at 02:30 PM on February 04, 2008

One thing's clear: no-one does the sore winner act better than certain sections of NYC and environs. My perspective? Somewhat over-rated team loses perfect record to somewhat lucky bastard team. It does confirm my belief that league and knockout tournaments are best kept apart.

posted by etagloh at 02:34 PM on February 04, 2008

He was a divisive force who didn't believe in the Coach and let the rest of the team know it. He told the owner when he left that they should keep Coughlin. He must have believed in him somewhat. Fact is, Tiki has been 100% spot on with all his comments regarding the Giants. He's only issue is he's honest. My play or lack of a play was the dropped interception by Samuel during that last two minutes He wasn't coming down inbounds anyways (both his feet hit out even though he didn't have the ball) The refs would have to blow the whistle first and call the play dead (invoke "in the grasp") in order for an unnecessary roughness penalty to occur. The sad part is, that is probably one of the greatest plays in SB history and it very well could not have happened if the refs had called in the grasp with the strictness they do 90% of the time. I've seen that whistle blown a lot quicker for guys a lot less "wrapped up".

posted by bdaddy at 03:03 PM on February 04, 2008

What's with the PC view of class as it pertains to not letting the Pats have exactly what they deserve? Have we forgotton so quickly these topics? We are perfect. We are the greatest ever. Bow down to the kings of sport. Cheer for us, we are perfect. All of the above were within the last 30 days. This is my favorite. Brady had a game for the ages yesterday, and that 26-28 could easily have been 28-28: his only incompletions were on-the-money drops (that Welker drop that would have kept the drive going was so frustrating!). If he has that kind of patience next week... it'll be a massacre. The Patriots have so many options, you simply can't cover them all, and the only weak link is if Brady can't find them. But when the offensive line gives him some extra time, and he "takes what the defense gives", he looks damn good. lbb: (Brady set another record in yesterday's game, btw -- a 92.9 completion percentage, highest for a quarterback in any NFL game, regular season or postseason.) There were at least three records, however inconsequential- highest completion percentage, and along with that most consecutive completions in the playoffs (16, before his first of two incompletions), and I think they flashed up something about most home wins/winning percentage in the playoffs; I believe he's undefeated at home, or had the most wins at home, or something. Harrison also extended/set a record for most consecutive playoff games with an INT, at 4. Really, at this point- with the Colts out of it- those not fans of San Diego, Green Bay, Dallas, or New York should be rooting for the Patriots: this is a once-in-a-lifetime chance to see perfection. As someone said earlier, if you go into the 9th with your team being beaten by a perfect game... you start rooting for a perfect game, even if it's the Yankees. Oh, and highest QB rating in playoff history (141.4). Odd that it wasn't "perfect" as a QB rating, because you can't imagine a better game, but I guess his yards-per-pass was too low. posted by Hal Incandenza at 4:00 PM CST on January 13 Just think if any other NFL team goes undefeated next year AND wins the SB. The Pats would go from potentially the greatest team ever to Mark Mcgwire in 1 year. A once in a life time chance to see perfection? Trademarking 19-0? This team and some of it's fans were just asking to lose. Classy?

posted by Prophite at 03:31 PM on February 04, 2008

I'm missing your point, prophite. What did the Pats fan that upset you so much? The links you posted don't seem bad to me. Were the Pats fan not supposed to be happy about their team doing so well? Where they not supposed to hope for a perfect season? How is that not classy? The reality is that the Pats were perfect until yesterday. And, really, I don't know how you can be any kind of judge of classiness with a comment dredging up old posts when Pats fans were happy with their team's success.

posted by bperk at 03:39 PM on February 04, 2008

18-and-D'oh!

posted by kirkaracha at 03:45 PM on February 04, 2008

but I don't think Eli deserves nearly the credit he's receiving. The play where he escapes everybody on the Pats' defense was incredible, but if not for a standout play by Tyree, that ball goes two feet above his head. When he got out of that sack and let loose I expected to see a receiver with no defenders around. It was kind of a broken play at that point and the way he chucked the ball it just seemed like he saw someone get free. They pan over to the receiver and three Pats are swarming him. It should have been an interception or an incomplete and he got bailed out. But Eli does deserve credit for his gutsy play last night. And its fitting that his receivers bailed him out a few times because those same receivers have had a reputation for dropping a lot of balls...this year even.

posted by curlyelk at 03:56 PM on February 04, 2008

And it’s especially sweet as a Yankee fan to know that Red Sox Nation went to bed in tears last night. Give the Pats their due. Hell of a football team and only 3 points short of perfect season. I'm of the opinion, if they made a run within the final seconds, and kicked a field score to tie, they would have won the game. The Pats should be proud of what they accomplished. Belichick, however I'm not giving a free pass until the investigation concludes over the alledged taping of Rams before Super Bowl XXXVI. Boy, I hope this is not true. I'll be crushed all over again at the Rams loss.

posted by Nakeman at 04:08 PM on February 04, 2008

The first touchdown pass to Tyree. Defender in pursuit and another coming towards the ball. Aikman pointed out the difficulty immediately. I believe Aikman said something to the effect that if it was off by inches in either direction, that it would have been intercepted. I think Manning deserves all the credit he is getting. It was not a perfect game but he drove them on two long drives in the 4th quarter for TDs. On the first drive, the TD pass to Tyree (as well as the pass to the back up tight end, Boss) were great passes. On the second drive, he led the team 83 yards in the last two minutes of the game to score the winning TD. Even the pass to Tyree, given the circumstances, was a good play. If he throws that ball low, it's probably picked off. He throws it high, gives Tyree a chance to make a play and Tyree makes a phenomemal play. And if Manning doesn't fight his way out of the sack, it's probably 4th and 10. Again, two long 4th quarter TD drives to win the game. That seems to be a hugely clutch MVP type performance (I'm not taking anything away from the D-line, but if you're gonna single out one player, I'd single out Manning).

posted by cjets at 04:18 PM on February 04, 2008

I just watched the fourth quarter (I live in Europe and didn't to stay up watch the game live) after knowing that Manning was voted MVP. All I can say is WTF? He must be the luckiest guy in the world. That last drive he threw two balls that really should have been intercepted. He nearly fumbled the ball when he ran out of the pocket. Toomer made an amazing shoestring catch on another pass that he threw short and granted he showed a lot of desire in getting away from the pass rush on the helmet catch, but Christ! he threw that ball wild into quadruple coverage!! The receiver made an amazing catch, but damn, that play was more luck than anything else. The only sharp pass he threw was the touchdown pass. Everything else just seemed like luck and near turnovers. This is an objective viewing by someone who is not a fan of either team, and doesn't even really follow the NFL anymore. No way is manning the MVP. The defense should have gotten it.

posted by sic at 05:07 PM on February 04, 2008

Some reactions to the Super Bowl... The fourth quarter was very entertaining but the most exciting thing that happened in between the Patriots first touchdown and the fourth quarter was Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers which isn't saying much. Tom Brady was not good at all, in large part due to the pressure. However, he still has more rings than all the Mannings combined. Incredible job by the Giants. Manning wasn't spectacular but he got the job. He wasn't the MVP though. I'd have given it to someone from the Giants' defensive line. I didn't see Bill Belichick's actions as unsportsmanlike. He gave his congratulations to Tom Coughlin. There really wasn't a need for him to stick around while 22 players assembled for a game-ending kneel down.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 05:41 PM on February 04, 2008

Eli received the MVP b/c he's the quarterback and that's just how it is. If the Patriots had won, Brady would have been MVP even though the majority of his passes travel 5 yards and Welker had the game of his life. Several posters and commentators have no idea what "class" means. Humility, biting your tongue instead of lashing out, not feeling the need to brag about how special you are - these are some element of "class".

posted by whitedog65 at 05:54 PM on February 04, 2008

whitedog65: If the Patriots had won, Brady would have been MVP even though the majority of his passes travel 5 yards and Welker had the game of his life.

Actually, after they scored their second TD, I was noting that Welker was the likely MVP if the Patriots held on to win. After all, in their last Superbowl Deion Branch won the MVP, not Brady. And had, dammit, a hail mary worked in those last seconds and Randy Moss caught a pass, it might have been Moss instead. I still think the failure to be aggressive in long passes led the Giants to put more pressure at the line. I think Moss being bottled up was preventable; in those last seconds, watching him race down the field and just miss passes (Brady was off all night long, but a couple were catchable if Moss jumps), I couldn't help think that if they'd done that in the first quarter, the Giants would have been nervous about the long pass, and put another body back- thus freeing up the line and allowing for those short passes like in the Jaguars game. I just have a hard time contemplating that such a perfect season would end like this, and so closely: if Samuel holds on to that potential interception... if Moss catches that one off his fingertips... if... if... I'd gladly have the Patriots start next season 0-8 to have had the win yesterday. A pitcher who retires 26 batters in a row, gives up a homerun, and then strikes out the first batter in his next start gets credit for nothing. Rooting against that is like the people rooting against Maris hitting number 61. The Patriots need to get younger and stronger in their line, but they have all the tools to go 19-0 next year... but they probably won't, since teams will know the way to beat them is to bludgeon them. They'll be in the playoffs in 2008, they'll probably advance, might even make it back to the Superbowl, but it won't be the same even if they won next year. Call me crazy, but I still say they are arguably the best single-season team in history. Had they won yesterday, it would have been inarguable; now it's at least arguable. If you swap the two games they played against the Giants, they'd be 15-1 in the regular season, with more points and TDs than any team in history, and a Superbowl. And other not-quite-perfect teams are considered the "best team of all time". That the win and the loss happened in the order they did is a mark people will note when considering them "Greatest of All Time"... but does not erase it. 4 teams have gone 15-1 in the regular season, of which two won the Superbowl (the 1984 49ers and 1985 Bears), and two did not (the 1998 Vikings and 2004 Steelers), neither of whom even reached the Superbowl. Not winning the Superbowl is sad, but one can't detract that in 2007-08, the New England Patriots were arguably the most dominant team in history. And if 4th quarters were 14 minutes and 30 seconds long, that'd been inarguable... :)

posted by hincandenza at 07:08 PM on February 04, 2008

I enjoyed the game, and though I was really just rooting for the offense (okay, part of me was rooting against perfection) the defensive play by both teams was really something. I think the Giants won because they played tough, gutsy games when they needed to. I think they were helped out in both the NFC game and the Superbowl by a few external factors: being the underdog suited their team psyche very well; the visiting bench heater "malfunction" at Green Bay kept them angry and ready to play all game long; the insulting Vegas line for the SB and the hubris of the Patriots' trademarking "19-0" provided a little more fire, especially for the defense, and especially for a team that played better as the season, and then the playoffs, progressed. I live in New York, and think NYC sports fans are more or less like fans from anywhere else, except many of them have the feeling, endemic among New Yorkers, that their city, their lives, and their sports teams are somehow exceptional, and that they're entitled to respect, if not success, because New York is a special city that confers on its denizens some special badge of honor. They're wrong, but nowadays everyone puts so much lip service into showing other teams and their fans how humble in victory or defeat they can be that they forget that it's about bragging rights, and that it's perfectly sportsmanlike to say, "Nice game. Now, fuck you, Giants, and the horse you rode in on. I'm glad you beat the Patriots, because I loathe perfection -- rooting for the Pats to go 19-0 is like rooting for the school bully to kick your own ass -- and also they're an AFL team, and we all know what that signifies. But now that you have the trophy, you're the target now. Enjoy it while it lasts; you earned it, now I hope you lose every game next year, or at least the ones against the Redskins. Congratulations, Giants, you helped remind this country that striving for perfection can be trumped by hard work and a little luck. Nice job, now go to hell." I loved the halftime show, but was disappointed at one song Tom Petty left off his set list: "Even the Losers..." ...get lucky sometimes.

posted by Hugh Janus at 07:38 PM on February 04, 2008

Call me crazy, but I still say they are arguably the best single-season team in history. Had they won yesterday, it would have been inarguable; now it's at least arguable. Sorry Hal. You're crazy. At best, they're the 43rd best team in history. You need to win the Super Bowl to even be in the conversation. All 42 superbowl winners deserve to be ranked ahead of them. And, as I mentioned earlier, why is it inarguable that a 19-0 Pats team would be the best ever? Do you consider the 1972 Dolphins the best ever because they were 17-0? The Pats were the best single season Passing Offense of all time. I'll give you that. But the Giants found a way to stop that.

posted by cjets at 07:48 PM on February 04, 2008

If they could do that, they'd never have left the team hotel.

posted by yerfatma at 08:02 PM on February 04, 2008

Tom Brady is a very flexible man.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 08:17 PM on February 04, 2008

I think the Patriots were licking themselves over the 4th and 13 in the 3rd qtr. So, if I say the Patriots suck, am I the one that get's in trouble? I would like to add that this in no way should reflect on rockstar 2001's ability to spell and/or locate keys on his keyboard. Especially if he meant to say that. Then I think an explanation is in order. Keyboards intake air sharply.

posted by THX-1138 at 08:29 PM on February 04, 2008

So, does anyone still think it was a bad idea for the Giants to actually play against the Patriots in that last regular season game? I'm guessing they learned some things from that game that they wouldn't have learned with Eli, Plaxico, Strahan, etc. on the bench.

posted by fabulon7 at 08:44 PM on February 04, 2008

Hey! Look what I wrote on January 21:

I'm rooting for the Pats, but only a fool would underestimate the Giants at this point. They have been on fire for a month now. Two weeks rest, on the road, and the underdog position again? They're the team to beat in the Superbowl, I think. It is going to be an extremely close game, I imagine, and The Patriots are going to need their entire bag of tricks if they're going to beat them. Comment icon posted at 5:00 AM CST on January 21

Damn, I'm good sometimes.

posted by Joey Michaels at 11:02 PM on February 04, 2008

So, does anyone still think it was a bad idea for the Giants to actually play against the Patriots in that last regular season game? As I recall, most people saw it as a good call at the time. As they moved on into the playoffs, people called it a better and better call. It's been considered a good idea for some time now.

posted by jmd82 at 11:14 PM on February 04, 2008

If you look at the #'s and consider them in light of the pressure he faced, i think Brady was great. Almost every other quarterback would have given the game away with the beating Brady took. He, however, actually kept them in it and gave them a chance to win. Agree. To me Brady's defining moment as a great quarterback didn't come on a scoring drive, but on that last failed drive. Two plays jump out at me: First he put a tremendous bomb right on Randy Moss' hands but the Giants defensive backs played amazing defense to break it up. Moss barely had to break stride, the ball was right there. Second, when he got sacked, I mean just hammered near the end there, his first thought was to call a time out. Presence of mind. Time has almost completely run out, he just received a sledgehammer to the chest, he's lying on his back with 75,000 screaming fans and he still has the presence of mind to immediately call a time out from the ground. That is a quarterback. Congratulations to the Giants, they played an amazing game, especially the defense, and they beat a great team and a great quarterback. Also strongly agree that a defensive player should have won the MVP.

posted by sic at 04:21 AM on February 05, 2008

Come on guys, It's time to let go... Time to let what go, exactly? My right to discuss sports as I see fit, becuase it upsets you? Guess what? I still don't think Eli deserves all the credit, or the MVP, and I'm going to continue thinking that, no matter what you say. I watched him launch crappy passes most of the night, and get bailed out by his teammates. Your team won the Superbowl; be happy with that, and quit complaining because not everybody is in love with Big Blue like you are. That's how sports works. Your post is like an Ode to Eli Manning, complete with a mash of everybody's favorite cliches (he's having fun out there!); you like the guy, I get it, but if you can't maintain at least a little bit of objectivity, you're going to go crazy around here. Congrats on the win.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 05:05 AM on February 05, 2008

#1 TBH, that was not directed solely at you ("guys" was plural so I thought that was clear). There are plenty of posts beating up on on Eli. How did I attempt to prohibit "your right to discuss sports"? I thought thats what we were doing? #2 So since my team won, I should shut up and color? Bullshit! I also have a right to discuss sports here as I see fit as well, and I happen to disagree with those who seem to think that Eli Sucked his way to a superbowl ring. I was one of his biggest critics during the season, I wasnt sure he was going to find his way in the NFL, but if NOT throwing an interception in the Entire playoffs (Brady threw 3 in the Championship game alone) doesnt get you at least some measure of respect as a passer then I dont know what will. #3 How is my post "complaining"? I attemted to rebutt the posts made critisizing Eli. I think I made some valid points too. His teamates that "bailed him out" as you say LED THE LEAGUE IN DROPPED PASSES. Maybe its about time they gave him some help. Maybe its YOU who need to stay objective around here. I was absolutely not upset when I wrote my post I just didnt agree with some of the opinions out there. Guys should be used to that by now.. #4 I've never written an "Ode" before so I was unaware that using one cliched tearm was the measure by which odes were written but since I know now I will practice and write some more. Look TBH, I dont know who your "team" is but there were alot of crappy written, inflammatory threads out there on both sides of this game but I re-read mine and I still dont think mine was one of em.

posted by firecop at 07:53 AM on February 05, 2008

You would make the Polk administration proud l_l_b.

posted by HATER 187 at 08:37 AM on February 05, 2008

I happen to disagree with those who seem to think that Eli Sucked his way to a superbowl ring. I think you're fighting with people who don't exist, at least not in this thread. I don't think Manning sucked, but I also don't think he was the MVP, and that particular pass was a ruptured duck. It succeeded due to some luck and another player's skill -- subtract that skill, and you've got millions of viewers screaming that the pass never should have been thrown.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:45 AM on February 05, 2008

It succeeded due to some luck and another player's skill -- subtract that skill, and you've got millions of viewers screaming that the pass never should have been thrown. I watched it live and didn't have the ability to see the outcome yet I wasn't screaming don't throw it. I realize I was cheering for Eli, but he's not winning the game with out throwing up that "ruptured duck". He threw it, it was caught. End of story. Credit where credit is due in my mind. The MVP discussion is trivial. Fans only had 8 options in their text messaging options and I believe that plays into the decision. Justin Tuck and David Tyree were not options.

posted by YukonGold at 08:59 AM on February 05, 2008

Call me crazy, but I still say they are arguably the best single-season team in history. I have to agree with Hal. This team can still be considered at the top of the list. Maybe not THE top, but close to it. At best, they're the 43rd best team in history. You need to win the Super Bowl to even be in the conversation. All 42 superbowl winners deserve to be ranked ahead of them. Winning a Super Bowl 20 years ago doesn't make you better than the team that lost the Super Bowl this year. Easy enough to point out the fallacy in that thinking. Tiger Woods isn't taken off the greatest golfer list after losing a major. On Sunday, one of the great teams got beat by a very good team. This is how sports works. Sometimes the underdog wins. It's why many of us watch. The better team doesn't always win. Only 3 teams have ever won 18 games in one season. How can that not make them at least nearly as good as those two teams (85 Bears and 84 49ers)? I'm a 49er fan by the way and still think those two teams of the 80's are the best ever but I see the argument for these Patriots.

posted by Ricardo at 09:16 AM on February 05, 2008

Also I have to say if anyone questions Tom Brady's toughness they need a reality check. The strip of his arm when he was throwing that one pass in slow motion (was watching the ESPN feed) looked like his arm was going to be broken. If he was bitching on the sidelines good for him, I never saw quit in his eyes. He got beaten up badly but was there in the end. He's a winner and yesterday will not take that away.

posted by gfinsf at 09:34 AM on February 05, 2008

I don't know what a "ruptured duck" is, but I thought that the pass Eli threw had a fair bit of zip on it. The biggest issue with it was that it sailed a little bit and was over Tyree's head. Here's the video. There's a great breakdown of that play by a Giants fan in this discussion at Football Outsiders.

posted by holden at 09:52 AM on February 05, 2008

Their play calling was so conservative I don't think they ever gave themselves a chance before all hell broke loose I have to agree with Familyman. There was one point, think it was early in the second half, where Moss made eye contact with Brady and shifted his eyes in a way that suggested (to my amateur suspicions), "Going deep". I got all fired up for the .7 seconds after the snap before the Giants sacked Brady as he was about to let fly. That rush was relentless. The one thing I might wonder is why they didn't go to more 2 and 3 TE sets like they did earlier in the playoffs. The offense looked like shit. I'm guessing a bit of that is Brady's injury (he looked similarly bad with the over and underthrows against SD), but the bulk of the credit goes to the Giants' D. On preview: it looked during the game like Aikman had it exactly right; Moss slowed down and the DBs caught up to him. If that pass was 10 yards further down the field, I think Moss could have caught up. I know the DBs could not have.

posted by yerfatma at 10:05 AM on February 05, 2008

(edit: Brady and Moss are among a number of players who will not be going to Hawaii) The Pro Bowl game is a contest that should go away once and for all. I like pro football as much as the next guy, but after the playoffs and Super Bowl I have never had any desire at all to watch the game. More and more players, especially from Super Bowl teams, choose not to go, so it's a rush to fill the rosters with replacements. It really involves paying the guys to party in Hawaii, go through the motions for four quarters (save for a few decent hits), and that's it. I can't help but wonder what the reception would be for the game if it was held on the mainland. Have it in Philly or Baltimore and see how many players opt out!

posted by dyams at 10:31 AM on February 05, 2008

Brady's QBR of 82 is lower than all but three of his regular season games in 2007. His average was the ungodly 117.2! I think the two biggest numbers in the bowl were 5 sacks and that 82.5 QBR. If the Giants don't get to Brady, it's not even a close game.

posted by rcade at 10:44 AM on February 05, 2008

Call me crazy, but I still say they are arguably the best single-season team in history. Ok, you're crazy. You are not a championship team unless you win the championship game. And non-championship teams do not qualify for consideration for the pantheon. The Pats had a great season, but you gotta bring home the bacon. And Superman would totally kick Batman's ass.

posted by psmealey at 10:57 AM on February 05, 2008

As far as one of the best of all time, you can't put them in the mix, but how can they not be logically? If the patriots win that game they're certainly in the running for the best of all time, right? So the difference between being the best of all time and not even being considered is a play where the guy catches the football on his head? Come on. The patriots simply did not play well in their last game. But the idea that they're not a great team, that they were over-rated when the difference may well have been a play that wouldn't be duplicated in a hundred years is ludicrous. I tend to think these things even out over time. Would we be discussing the Patriots as the best team if A.J. Feeley didn't decide to throw deep on Asante Samuel when the Eagles were ahead and had the momentum in Week 12? Or if Baltimore had not called a timeout on fourth down in Week 13? Teams get lucky to win sometimes and have bad luck to lose; unfortunately for the Patriots, the other team was the beneficiary of a "lucky" play in the biggest game that mattered. I personally think the Patriots season was historic and that they are likely the best regular season team of all-time and in the top 5 teams of all-time. But from Week 12 onward (including into the playoffs), they were not consistently dominating teams the way they were earlier in the season. Contrast that with, say, the 1985 Bears, who won their three playoff games 21-0, 24-0 and 46-10. For better or worse, armchair historians and MMQBs overemphasize how a team finishes.

posted by holden at 11:16 AM on February 05, 2008

Or if Baltimore had not called a timeout on fourth down in Week 13? How quickly we forget that Balmer won that game.

posted by yerfatma at 11:29 AM on February 05, 2008

Tiger Woods isn't taken off the greatest golfer list after losing a major. Only 3 teams have ever won 18 games in one season. How can that not make them at least nearly as good as those two teams (85 Bears and 84 49ers)? Because they didn't win the Super Bowl. As far as the Tiger Woods reference, it's a different sport with 4 "super bowls" in each season. If, by the Woods reference, you mean sustained excellence, I can't really argue with them being called the team of the decade. But that doesn't make this 2007 team one of the best of all time. As far as one of the best of all time, you can't put them in the mix, but how can they not be logically? If the patriots win that game they're certainly in the running for the best of all time, right? So the difference between being the best of all time and not even being considered is a play where the guy catches the football on his head? When you say that the difference in the whole game was that catch, you do a disservice to the great game the Giants played. The defense held them to 14 points with 5 sacks. Manning had a QB rating of 140.5 in the 4th quarter with two long TD drives. And the Giants had bad breaks of their own. The bobbled pass by Smith that led to the INT. Manning's overthrow of Burress. Manning choosing to throw to Burress when he had a wide open Toomer. The Giants outplayed the Patriots and deserved the win. I think the Patriots are a great team and not overrated. But if you want respect for the Pats, you should show the same respect for the Giants and the game they played. As for the catch itself, described by some on this site as "lucky" and the pass itself a "ruptured duck," I would have to disagree. This was not the immaculate reception. Manning threw the ball right to Tyree. He didn't have to move his feet, just elevate. It went a little high but not too high for Tyree to get both hands on it. It was a great play and evokes memories of Montana to Clark, if anything. I don't recall anyone calling them lucky.

posted by cjets at 11:49 AM on February 05, 2008

But that doesn't make this 2007 team one of the best of all time. Well, they are ONE of the best of all time. They smiply can't claim to be THE best of all time. But in the same fashion, I don't believe that the '72 Dolphins are THE best of all time, but they are allowed to be part of the discussion.

posted by grum@work at 12:00 PM on February 05, 2008

Huh? There are no more ties in hockey. (Kind of off-topic, but...) I think the shootout system, after three periods and an overtime end in a tie, is a ridiculous way to determine a winner. Ties have been done away with in the standings, but ending a game this way is kind of like baseball, after one extra inning, going to a home run derby to determine a winner. They should play the game until a winner is determined in regular play.

posted by dyams at 12:14 PM on February 05, 2008

(Kind of off-topic, but...) If keeps this alive for another 100 comments have at it. Also, if lbb wants to go down the fight road... it's Cougar vs. Bear

posted by YukonGold at 12:30 PM on February 05, 2008

can Batman beat up Superman? The real question should be, "Is Lois Lane hotter than Spiderman's girlfriend?"

posted by Howard_T at 12:52 PM on February 05, 2008

And the thread spirals further out of control.

posted by brainofdtrain at 01:13 PM on February 05, 2008

And the thread spirals further out of control. Imagine what it will look like at the 300 post mark.

posted by dyams at 01:23 PM on February 05, 2008

Dude, the guy on the Cialis ad says you should call the Doctor after four hours.

posted by Mr Bismarck at 01:56 PM on February 05, 2008

Defensively, they were just a sharp as the Giants, and offensively, they looked great on their first offensive possession as well as their final drive. Both defenses played well, yes. But the giants were going against one of the greatest offenses of all time with a quarterback many consider one of if not the best of all time. So saying the New England defense played as well as New York's is true if you take out those details. I don't think you can say that they did not play well, they did play well against a very tough and committed team. The Giants just played a little bit better when it counted. I'm not saying New England played a terrible game. But I don't think they played well. Give credit to the giant offensive line. That doesn't mean blame can't be put on the Patriot defensive line. When you say that the difference in the whole game was that catch, you do a disservice to the great game the Giants played. No I'm not. I'm saying that play could have gone either way. It was a pivotal play and had a huge mark on the game. I'll bet 9 out of every 10 times (and that's being generous) that ball falls to the ground. That's not taking anything away from the giants. That's simply the truth. It was a close game that could have gone either way. That play went the giants way. If it had gone the patriots way I'd say the same thing. So my point, with the game so close, and such a decisive play, it's nonsense to call the patriots over-rated when they were so close to a win and 19-0. This was not the immaculate reception. Manning threw the ball right to Tyree. He didn't have to move his feet, just elevate. It went a little high but not too high for Tyree to get both hands on it. It was a great play and evokes memories of Montana to Clark, if anything. I don't recall anyone calling them lucky. Because there wasn't a single thing lucky about it that play. No, sunday's play wasn't the immaculate reception, but it wasn't montana to clark either. It was somewhere in between. This might be where we agree to disagree, because I can't fathom how you can look at those two plays and not see how one might be considered slighly more lucky than the other.

posted by justgary at 02:39 PM on February 05, 2008

So my point, with the game so close, and such a decisive play, it's nonsense to call the patriots over-rated when they were so close to a win and 19-0. I would agree with that especially because I never called them overrated. I just said that they're not one of the best ever because they didn't win the Super Bowl. This might be where we agree to disagree, because I can't fathom how you can look at those two plays and not see how one might be considered slighly more lucky than the other. If what you're saying is that Manning to Tyree was slighty more lucky than Montana to Clark, I guess I can buy that. What I have an issue with is the characterization that this was more luck than skill. Let's talk about what this catch wasn't. It wasn't a tipped ball. It wasn't caught with one hand. It wasn't caught with any other part of his body. To review (again): Manning breaks away from what seemed to be a sure sack. He spots Tyree and delivers a 40 yard strike to him, albeit slightly higher than he would have liked. Tyree elevated and caught the ball with two hands. It was only after the initial catch that he held the ball against his head to ensure the reception. Of course, there's some luck involved. But there's also a tremendous amount of skill involved on the part of both players. Does he drop it 9 out of 10 times? I would argue that but I don't have to. They made the play when they needed to with a minute to go in the Super Bowl. That's my definition of clutch, not luck. /And now back to Superman v. Batman (or was that MJ v. Susan Storm?)

posted by cjets at 03:17 PM on February 05, 2008

(or was that MJ v. Susan Storm?) It's on now:

On on the topic of the hottest piece of comic ass, Sue's hot, but who wants to go after a dude name Mr.Fantastic? Namor can't compete w/ that, and he knows that, and that's why he's always tryin' to invade the main land.

posted by YukonGold at 03:36 PM on February 05, 2008

Sue's hot, but who wants to go after a dude name Mr.Fantastic? Plus, he's got that stretchy thing goin' on. That's a bit much to match up against. Guy can alter his junk depending on her mood. Now, that's what I call ribbed for her pleasure.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 03:55 PM on February 05, 2008

Guy can alter his junk depending on her mood. Now, that's what I call ribbed for her pleasure. What about THE THING? Let's just say he's permanently ready for action. And, by the way, the on-screen version of Sue Storm (Jessica Alba) defeats all comers.

posted by cjets at 04:06 PM on February 05, 2008

Well, I finally have internet access so I am finally able to post my thoughts on this game. Bear in mind, I am a die hard Pats fan how has followed the team religiously since 1985 1. Congrats to the Giants for pulling off one of the greatest upsets in sports history. Even though I told anyone who would listen that the G-men worried me, I still believed Brady & the bouys would pull it out. 2. This Super Bowl is exactly what a football game should have been: bone crushing defense, intriguing offense, non stop edge of your seat action. Anyone who equates high scoring with greatness is not a true football fan because they don't truly appreciate all facets of the game. 3. My son went to bed crying because the Pats lost. I went in there and told him that the Pats didn't lose, the Giants just won. They out-executed the Patriots, and whoever wound up winning that game deserved to raise the Lombardi. Then I told him welcome to the agonizing disappointing reality of what being a true New England sports fan is all about. 4. the Giants' defensive scheme was genius. They figured out a way to tie up the O-Line 1-on-1 to allow a delayed pass rush get to Brady. Sheer genius. 5. I'm not making any excuses, but I do think Brady's ankle was worse than ANYBODY let on. What stuck in my mind was a comment by Buck, I think, that said that Brady tried practicing with the boot, but stopped because "it was too uncomfortable". You don't recover that quickly from a high ankle sprain, I don't care who you are. 6. Another talking head said that, towards the end of the season, it almost seemed as if the Patriots were trying to lose a game but the other teams just kept giving them back the victories. I don't believe that, but I do believe that the Pats did let the magnitude of the potential accomplishment get to them. Just look at how they looked and acted when they came out. They were too business-like and didn't seem to be enjoying themselves at all. Just a personal observation. and finally, 7. Comic book wise, MJ puts them all to shame; on screen, how come no-one is mentioning Halle Berri in tight black leather?

posted by crqri at 04:35 PM on February 05, 2008

Guy can alter his junk depending on her mood. Now, that's what I call ribbed for her pleasure. Maybe, but he doesn't last near as long as Anthony Stark.

posted by irunfromclones at 04:57 PM on February 05, 2008

how come no-one is mentioning Halle Berri in tight black leather? Catwoman or Storm? Actually, why am I even asking?

posted by yerfatma at 06:00 PM on February 05, 2008

That is true. However, in light of recent successes I'd say a a decade or two will have to pass before lamenets can start again. Hopefully by that time the Lions will have won the Super Bowl. Or at least make the playoffs. A guy can dream right?

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 07:43 PM on February 05, 2008

So, um, I was watching on the internet streamed from China so had no English commentary or commercials. I was struck, as half-time began, with how phallic the stage that Tom Petty was on looked as it strobed white. Did anyone else see that? Crazy.

posted by geekyguy at 08:32 PM on February 05, 2008

I would agree with that especially because I never called them overrated. I just said that they're not one of the best ever because they didn't win the Super Bowl. True, you never did. What you said was: But if you want respect for the Pats, you should show the same respect for the Giants and the game they played. Which, not showing respect for the giants was not my point, and not anything I said. So I was trying to make my point clearer. The giants played a great game, showed no fear, and seemed to have more energy than the patriots. Saying that the game could have gone either way and hinged on an improbable play, which it did, doesn't take away from that.

posted by justgary at 12:39 AM on February 06, 2008

The Giants could have scored more points, but they kept screwing up inside the Patriots 30 in the first half. They could easily have had at least two field goals. The Giants' defense was astonishing. Late in the third quarter, the Patriots had run 41 offensive plays, 19 for 0 or negative yards. The Patriots scored on 53% of their drives during the regular season (pretty amazing); they scored on two out of nine during the Super Bowl. I think the Patriots' would have won if it had gone to overtime. The Giants D was exhausted during the Patriots scoring drive. Field position was huge. The Patriots started three drives inside their 12 and two more inside their 21. Going 80-90+ yards is tough for any offense. McQuarters fielded almost every punt, even when it would have been safer to fair catch, but it paid off and he had decent return yards.

posted by kirkaracha at 10:33 AM on February 06, 2008

Without the championship ... it a wait until next year choke. You go on and on praising the giants in every way possible and then end claiming the patriots choked? That makes absolutely no sense. Did the giants win the game? Or did the patriots let the pressure get to them and give it away? Because you can't have it both ways. One question. How did the defense of the Giants let Moss get behind everybody with a couple of seconds left? Brady throws that ball a little sooner or 5 yards further and the Giants loose with 9 seconds on the clock. And then the 'not even close (your words)' to best team ever becomes just that. Funny how that works. Not even close = 5 yards. 5 more yards and the patriots go from chokers not even close to the best of all time to become one if not the best of all time. I should have had you defend my opinion.

posted by justgary at 11:13 AM on February 06, 2008

Did the giants win the game? Or did the patriots let the pressure get to them and give it away? Because you can't have it both ways. I don't see how these two are mutually exclusive. The Giants certainly played well and did what was needed to win, but the Patriots were supposed to win this game. New England has the all time QB, star wide receivers, clutch defense, and genius coach. By contrast, Coughlin, Manning, and others for New York have been considered highly questionable not only in seasons past but also earlier this year. I think you can say the Pats blew this one without taking anything away from the New York.

posted by curlyelk at 12:33 PM on February 06, 2008

I think the issue of the Patriots greatness has to be looked at like this. Had they won the game they would have had the perfect season and by virtue of it being the longest perfect season, I think they would have gone down in history as being the best team ever. No matter how close they came to achieving this, the fact that they did not, drops them pretty far down the list. There is the 72 Dolphins that did everything possible, beat every opponent and won the Championship, nobody has ever equaled that feat so they have to have the number one slot. Two other teams have one the championship while suffering only one loss going 18-1 for the year. 85 Bears and I believe the 84 Niners. I really think the best Patriot teams are the ones that won previous Superbowls, so even those Patriot teams should be rated better than this one. I will say that this years Patriot team is probably the best team in history not to win the Superbowl. I am not sure what that counts for but it's probably true. Patriot fans are funny. If someone points out that they could have easily lost to the Ravens or Giants during the season, they are quick to point out that they didn't and winning is all that counts. So by the same criteria, the winnig championship separates the greats from the not so greats. Close does not count it only makes the defeat harder to swallow. Simply put they came close to greatness but fell short.

posted by Atheist at 12:47 PM on February 06, 2008

Isn't the whole point of following sports to create elaborate sets of measurements that prove your initial point? And isn't the point of this site to encourage that sort of talk?

posted by yerfatma at 01:56 PM on February 06, 2008

Well, if you're referring to me I'm not a patriots fan. I wasn't referring to you. When listing the best teams of all time you can't include the patriots because of the super bowl loss. I'll give you that. They lost the right to that claim. And I realize that the only true way we have to measure greatness is to win or lose. Patriots lost = not great. We are in total agreement here. Where I don't get your outlook at all is your claim that they were no where near the greatest when you admitted they were 5 yards from a perfect season. Where the victory depended on a play that could have gone either way. If they were no where near the greatest they simply wouldn't have been in that position. My comment about the last Patriots possession with just seconds left, where Moss ran down the sideline and actually got behind the prevent defense of the Giants, was not to imply how close the Patriots got. I was just wondering how in that situation a guy could actually get past the defense. Of course one explaination is that he had just out run the arm of Brady and the defense let him go. In any case I was not trying to imply the Pats were far out of the game ever. All my points are directed at the fact that you can come close to becoming the greatest ever, but fail on the final step and then not be anywhere close to being considered the greatest. As close as they were to making history, in the end they failed reaching the goal of every team in the league, getting to and winning the championship. All season long when asked about their season the Pats were the first ones to say, undefeated is nice but it's all about winning the superbowl. You seem to be arguing that because they were ever so close to becoming the best they still must be considered among the best. My feeling is just because a few teams came close to beating the Pats during the season their wins were still wins as if they had dominated which is true, and just because they come close to acomplishing something remarkably great they didn't which is the same as missing it by a mile. The game could have gone either way on many plays but in the end even a close loss takes them a long way down the list. Does any remember how Tenessee finished a season, in the Superbowl one yard away from victory as time ran out. The beauty of sports is that sometimes an inch is all that separates greatness from mediocrity.

posted by Atheist at 04:03 PM on February 06, 2008

My analogy is great; it's your nerdboy sensibilities that are feeling the pain of a too-well-fitting-shoe right about now.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 04:38 PM on February 06, 2008

Do I really fit in here? I mean, I know nothing about comic books or D&D. How can I ever discuss a SuperBowl without that skillset? Make me feel better and let's have a Blades of Steel reference or a "electronic football game" comparison please!

posted by BoKnows at 05:22 PM on February 06, 2008

No wonder I slobbered all over PONG and BATTLEZONE when they first came out. Cjets, it's a good thing that you did not slobber all over the football game. That could have burned the house down.

posted by BoKnows at 05:37 PM on February 06, 2008

Ah, Blades of Steel, back when kitting out a team was easy: "And give me a fat defenseman so I can knock people down."

posted by yerfatma at 07:21 PM on February 06, 2008

I freakin' loved electric football. Yeah, but did you love it as much as this guy?

posted by goddam at 07:45 PM on February 06, 2008

Thanks guys and gals. I knew I could count on you to make me feel better. You got it Yukon. There it is. Blades of Steel. (zzzching) Fight!

posted by BoKnows at 08:52 PM on February 06, 2008

I freakin' loved electric football. Yeah, but did you love it as much as this guy? Although I was a lot younger than this guy, seeing that picture reminded me of how me and my friends were. I used to carry my team in a fishing tackle box, and had them all painted as LA Rams. I had the starters numbered just as the starters on the Rams, and knew what every player could do. You could also do things to adjust the brushes on bottom of the players to get them to move certain ways. We were seriously into it, but again, we were young. Girls took over as our main interest. Now I'd actually like to go back to electric football.

posted by dyams at 07:26 AM on February 07, 2008

I wasnt into the "electronic football" thingy, but I was a BIG FAN of the first coleco-vision handheld electronic sports stuff! little red dashes and blips moving around a teeny tiny field.... I had regular footbal, head to head football (aptly named because the game was sos small you would smack heads occasionally) basketball, hockey and baseball. True to what dyams said, girls were still "icky" at that point.

posted by firecop at 08:09 AM on February 07, 2008

the definitive commentary on the big game? http://youtube.com/watch?v=2OR9sOID8_s

posted by ajaffe at 09:20 AM on February 07, 2008

duly noted, lbb. not really a comment on the super bowl by me, but rather an opportunity to get this out there...

posted by ajaffe at 12:24 PM on February 07, 2008

I'm not sure what time that was shot, but my wife was on her way into work near where the parade started and saw people all-but-passed out on the street in Giants garb at 9 a.m. or so. This gives you a good idea of the mood out there.

posted by ajaffe at 01:29 PM on February 07, 2008

In an effort to keep this thread going, I have to say the Giants have absolutely zero chance of repeating as Super Bowl Champion. You take into consideration the usual performance of Super Bowl champs the following season, they probably won't even make the playoffs. Does anyone really thing the Giants will win their division? Over the Cowboys? If not, they're going to ride the wild card back to the big game? Face it, it's a one-year thing for the Giants. Great for them, but too bad for any of their fans expecting some sort of dynasty. The Patriots' schedule looks ridiculously easy next year, so I fully expect them to be flirting with perfection again.

posted by dyams at 08:14 PM on February 09, 2008

Wow, what a fall for LT. From kicking butt to pounding out "We kick they booty." Drugs will ruin your life. A UNC degree down the drain. Sad, so sad.

posted by gfinsf at 01:27 AM on February 10, 2008

I think the Giants have a young team, that while repeating is obviously a daunting task, can likely win the NFC East. Having said that, that the NFC East has tendency to beat each other up pretty bad during the regular season. The cowboys should still be a quality team, the eagles are up and down so you cant really tell, the Skins just signed Jim Zorn as a head coach so that could go either way. This Division will be up in the air, but I dont think the Giants were as inconsistant as some may think. They played dang good ball the entire second half of the season and through the playoffs. Even without a big chip on their shoulders next season I think they will have more confidence. With rookies like Bradshaw, smith, Moss, Boss, I think the G-Men will be tough to beat. Having said that, injuries are always lurking and can change a season in the blink of an eye.

posted by firecop at 10:49 AM on February 10, 2008

dyams, is that absolutely zero meaning on the kelvin scale? doing my part for number 300...

posted by lil_brown_bat at 04:20 PM on February 10, 2008

Two hundred and seventy two and counting. That is good grammer right there. Never start a sentence with numerals.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 08:00 PM on February 10, 2008

Two hundred and seventy two and counting. That is good grammer right there. Never start a sentence with numerals. That's good spelling right there. Never correct someone's grammar while misspelling a word.

posted by tommybiden at 08:55 PM on February 10, 2008