July 17, 2007

Hidden: Falcons QB Michael Vick Indicted on Federal Charges; : somewhat of a surprise, given that two weeks ago, most legal pundits familiar with the case said it was unlikely that Vick would face charges. Vick and three others are charged with violating federal laws against competitive dog fighting, procuring and training pit bulls for it and conducting the enterprise across state lines. The indictment alleges that Vick and his co-defendants began dog fighting in early 2001, the former Virginia Tech star's rookie year with the Falcons.

posted by The_Black_Hand to football at 05:13 PM - 103 comments

You have to be one (allegedly) sick s.o.b. to enjoy this shit. Whether or not Vick is involved, what the hell is wrong with people? How can you sit there and watch this and enjoy it? And electrocuting the losing dog? They actually wet it down and electrocute it? How twisted do you have to be to do something like that? Sorry, I know it isn't really bringing anything new to the discussion, but I'm just so sickened and so pissed off reading about this. Whoever actually is involved should be put in a ring with a pitbull.

posted by SummersEve at 06:12 PM on July 17

I've been halfway expecting this. The Feds take their time building a case, to the point where you think they've disappeared, and then bam. It had been pretty quiet on the Vick front the last few weeks. How'd you like to be Bobby Petrino? He leaves his great program, the Falcons trade Schaub, and now this. If there's even a whiff of solidity in the Fed case, Vick is gone for as long as Goodell wants him gone. And the new coach is without the QB that the club foolishly mortgaged their talent base to obtain. Bobby, it ain't worth it. Some franchises make their own bad luck. This seems to be one of them. Git now, take a year off, and go have lunch with Bobby Bowden. He'll be ready when you are.

posted by beaverboard at 06:13 PM on July 17

GodDAMN. I rooted for that sick son of a bitch. I hope he fucking ROTS IN JAIL.

posted by vito90 at 06:17 PM on July 17

Mars, Vick did this to himself. He deserves more than he will (probably) get. DISGUSTING...

posted by jphclub at 06:17 PM on July 17

Come on, Get off the "poor little black guy" routine. Granted the Govt. got involved, but, it was because Mike Vick is a High Profile Athelete, not because of his color. If it had been Brett Farr or some other "white" athlete they (the Govt.) would have had to make a stand also. If Mike is guilty then he should be punished severly because as a "high Profile" athlete HE IS in the media attention. It comes with the job. Come on, Get with it. If your black, white green or yellow and you're "High-Profile", you are going to catch more attention. Being black is a chance of birth. Not an excuse. "If he did the crime, then, He must do the time!" Being black He should know that he is under a microscope and he should be MAN enough and Intelligent enough to realize it and watch his "P,s and Q's even more. His role model should be as an upstanding, NFL player and citizen and NOT as some street thug that expects to beat the system. When a black man "thugs out" he not only hurrts the NFL's image, but all of our images as well.

posted by skeet0311 at 06:29 PM on July 17

Sorry guys, but dog fighting is an equal opportunity criminal activity. They are just as many (or more) white men indicted and arrested for fighting dogs as black men.

posted by irunfromclones at 07:08 PM on July 17

Vick and the others who promote this obscene activity should be banned from professional sports- period.

posted by pbel at 07:56 PM on July 17

They should make Vick eat dog poo until he dies. Then they can electrocute his dead body and feed it to dogs.

posted by DudeDykstra at 08:00 PM on July 17

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. IF Vick is indeed as guilty as it APPEARS that he is, then there should be some sort of award for the dumbest, throw-it-all away due to greed, S.O.B in the history of stupid-ass decision making. You, Mr Vick, are (were) a hero to legions of fans, blessed with incredible athletic talent and millions of dollars. If you actually were knowingly contributing to the horrors taking place on your property, then I call into question your ability to reasonably function safely in society. Staggering. Disgusting. Mind-numbing.

posted by THX-1138 at 08:01 PM on July 17

I agree. There is no way Vick will get what he deserves. Even if he does 6 years in jail, he deserves more. I would say he deserves to be thrown into a pen of these poor animals he has tortured and maimed and killed. Throw Clinton Portis in there with him while you're at it.

posted by Ricardo at 08:06 PM on July 17

Here is the indictment as posted on the Atlanta Journal-Constitution's Web site. So much for the day job in Atlanta, Ron...er...Michael.

posted by roberts at 08:06 PM on July 17

from the ESPN post The indictment also claims that in the summer of 2002, at various times, Peace, Phillips, Taylor and Vick performed "testing" sessions at the property in Smithfield. After the testing, the indictment says, dogs that performed poorly were put to death by Peace, Phillips or Taylor. In April 2007, the indictment says, an additional "testing" session was performed by Peace, Phillips and Vick. Afterward, it claims eight dogs were hanged, drowned and/or slammed to the ground and killed. OK, I'm no animal activist. But even if you could explain away the desire to watch 2 animals go at it as some sort of "sport" or "enjoyable activity", how on earth can you justify killing the weak dogs that didn't test well...not just killing them, but "hanging, drowning, or slamming them into the ground until dead". That's something you only associate with 13 year old juvenile delinquents who are on a path to become future serial killers

posted by bdaddy at 08:17 PM on July 17

Above the Law......O.J killed people. Vick kills dogs ( which I agree is gross and sick ) Why would he do any time if O.J. didn't. Or Robert Blake Or Teddy Kennedy.... Famous people rarely do jail time.....God bless america..... How hard is it to get Canadian citizenship????

posted by 3pounddickey at 08:19 PM on July 17

The ham sandwich was obviously guilty.

posted by SummersEve at 08:23 PM on July 17

Just remember an indictment only means that the grand jury decided that there is enough evidence to go forward with a trial, that is still quite a long way from a conviction. Regardless of his legal status though, he either is or isn't guilty and we may never know for sure but if he should confess (unlikely) or plea in order to get a lighter sentence (because he knows he's guilty) then I would hope that his team would have the common decency to sever all ties with him. The NFL must have some sort of character clause in their contracts allowing them to cut shitbags and criminals.

posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 08:33 PM on July 17

the smoking gun has the indictment

posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 09:06 PM on July 17

Maybe Michael Moore could do a "Sicko" show on this dumbass. To have it all as the others have pointed out makes him one of the dumbest sons of bitches ever. I hope he rots in a cell full of pit bull remains.

posted by Mickster at 09:14 PM on July 17

About Goddamned time,too!

posted by sickleguy at 09:18 PM on July 17

"Come on, Get off the "poor little black guy" routine." ????? What could have prompted this post?

posted by bo_fan at 09:23 PM on July 17

I had a feeling this was going to happen..... Maybe this high profile coverage will open the eyes of the authorities , cause dog fights are happening all over the country... I agree with all the other comments he is a SICK FUCK

posted by jaclp at 09:26 PM on July 17

Lord, I used to actually like Michael Vick too. Now his career has gone to the dogs. Well, SOMEONE was gonna say it......

posted by NerfballPro at 09:38 PM on July 17

I agree that anyone that gets kicks out of this midevil sorce of activity is SICK. If he's found guilty I think we could be seeing his exit in the NFL. You could say his career litrally went to the dogs! Maybe now the Falcons can move foward and get a true QB. Every time he takes off with the ball you wondered when the season ending injury would happen.

posted by robi8259 at 09:46 PM on July 17

Just plain sick. What a twisted excuse for a human being.

posted by urall cloolis at 10:09 PM on July 17

I also totally miss the point of skeet's post (who suggested race had anything to do with it?), but aside from that I can only hope that Atlanta enjoys the Joey Harrington era. Even better for us Minnesota fans, it starts against the Vikings.

posted by TheQatarian at 10:17 PM on July 17

I also totally miss the point of skeet's post (who suggested race had anything to do with it?) Probably someone in a comment that was such a blatant violation of the posting guidelines that it got yanked. That's usually the way of it.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:21 PM on July 17

Sorry Guys, BUT the first couple of postings on this site (which are no longer being shown) were about how our govt. only got involved because Mick Vick was a high profile BLACK athlete. And I (as a black man myself) get tick off as people like Mike Vick enhances the "sterotyping" of my race. So I apologize because without those postings my posting seems completely out of text. Sorry

posted by skeet0311 at 10:32 PM on July 17

A friend of mine would like to fight Michael Vick. His name is Chuck Liddell. He is a UFC Champion. Would anyone else like to see this happen? Would anyone pay to see that on Pay Per View? I know I will be in the front seats if it would ever happen. Make the punishment fit the crime. I can think of no better punishment.

posted by urall cloolis at 10:36 PM on July 17

An indictment doesn't mean he's guilty. It looks bad, but so did Ray Lewis and he faced neither legal nor professional consequences. Given the way other athletes under a cloud have been treated, he has to be suspended by Roger "Tough on Crime" Goodell, right?

posted by rcade at 10:42 PM on July 17

A great big Fuck You to Vick, his family, his friends, and anyone else involved in this case. I don't care to what extent his involvement was with this sick case, be it direct or corollary. I don't care if he is found "not guilty" of these abuses, he is still guilty of something, be it neglect, stupidity, or something much, much worse. If this douchebag is still involved in the NFL when the dust settles, every fan should be made aware of how these animals lived and died, so they can treat Vick accordingly. I am by no means a dog lover, but to hear that anything had to suffer so horribly for the sick enjoyment of others makes me nauseous. And I challenge anyone to come to his defense in any logical fashion. This isn't a case of someone being persecuted for anything. This is a horrific case that needs to be pursued until this shit stops.

posted by tahoemoj at 11:04 PM on July 17

Ok...like many others, im far from what you would call an animal rights activist, but readin crap like this...lets just say I'd like to run into Vick on a back alley somewhere if he really is behind it (as it seems) And like others have already said before me...how sick do you have to be to enjoy watching something like this? Unfortunately though, how often do high profile people actually do time when they break the law? Once in a blue moon maybe? I guess all thats left to say is FUCK YOU VICK. P.S. "If convicted, Vick and the others — Purnell A. Peace, Quanis L. Phillips and Tony Taylor — could face up to six years in prison, $350,000 in fines and restitution." <- What the hell is $350,000 to a NFL quarterback with a multi-million dillar salary?

posted by kenakabones at 11:19 PM on July 17

Vick is a d#%k!!! The punishment that he will get won't EVEN be enough!!! Anyone who attends, promotes, enjoys, partakes or in any way, shape or form has ANYTHING to do with dogfighting needs to be strung up and beat...with a very big stick!!!

posted by Duty68 at 11:24 PM on July 17

I remember just a few years ago everyone saying Marcus Vick was the black sheep of the family and not to compare him to Michael, who was such a positive role model. I guess that is all sorted out now. Michael Vick is lower than a Dogs Dick. I hope he is ripped apart by a pack of his own angry dogs.

posted by urall cloolis at 11:34 PM on July 17

It looks bad, but so did Ray Lewis and he faced neither legal nor professional consequences. "Lewis accepted this plea bargain, and he was sentenced to one year of unsupervised, unrestricted probation. He was also offered expungment of this record if he successfully completed his probation, and was not suspended by the NFL. He was fined a league record $250,000." (wikipedia citation containing the information above) What the hell is $350,000 to a NFL quarterback with a multi-million dillar salary? Well, my guess is that if he goes into prison for 6 years he won't be making "multi-million dillars", and could have his house seized as a "criminal asset".

posted by grum@work at 11:34 PM on July 17

Well, my guess is that if he goes into prison for 6 years he won't be making "multi-million dillars", and could have his house seized as a "criminal asset". Well, I dont know about you, but Im about willing to bet he will spend minimum if any time in prison. How often do famous people go actually....like i said at first "Once in a blue moon maybe?" I guess only time will tell for that one. And as for your point that he "could have his house seized as a "criminal asset"" I personally hope he does (as long as these chargea are true) P.S. Thanks for pointing out my typo. I'm horrible at those

posted by kenakabones at 11:52 PM on July 17

It's starting to look like Virginia Tech has a psychopath recruitment plan. I cannot and will never understand the kind of culture that endorses this as a lifestyle. Vick and these other guys obviously didn't invent this activity, but I can't conceive of actually looking at the behavior of the people around you without going, "Whoa, man. This is seriously deranged. We just electrocuted a dog." I guess if you, for some reason, view the pitbull as some sort of sub-creature of inherently evil intent... but still... how do you sleep at night? I guess I'm just joining the choir of people who don't get it. This is unlikely to come out in any trial, but I want to hear somebody involved defend the activity, just to understand what anybody could possibly get out of it. I get the gambling angle, I guess, but is there a sense of satisfaction in destroying these animals? Is it duty or necessity? Is it some sort of robotic "this is the way it's always been done?"

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 11:52 PM on July 17

Jack Johnson's crime was liking white women.Ali's crime,not fightin a bogus war.Ray Lewis' crime:riding with the wrong people in his limo.Jamal Lewis' crime:TALKING ABOUT A DRUG DEAL 3 years before his arrest.now Vick.I'm sure there are countless others,like the football player in georgia who got tossed in the pen for having sex with that white girl.I don't care what anybody says.if you are a Black athlete with big name,the government is going to be on your back.Joe Louis even fought for the army,and he died broke because the IRS screwed him to death.I REST MY CASE.

posted by mars1 at 11:56 PM on July 17

Ali's crime,not fightin a bogus war You make it sound like he was the only one imprisoned for doing that. Ray Lewis' crime:riding with the wrong people in his limo Riiiight. That's why he gave money to the dead man's daughter. Jamal Lewis' crime:TALKING ABOUT A DRUG DEAL 3 years before his arrest Well, organizing a drug deal IS a crime. like the football player in georgia who got tossed in the pen for having sex with that white girl No, he got tossed in the pen for having sex with an UNDER AGE girl. if you are a Black athlete with big name,the government is going to be on your back Yeah, I remember when they ran Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Venus Williams and Walter Payton off to jail. Those were sad times for everyone. As for white athletes going to prision, off the top of my head: Pete Rose - tax evasion Denny McLain - money laundering Craig MacTavish - vehicular homicide

posted by grum@work at 12:27 AM on July 18

if you are a Black athlete with big name,the government is going to be on your back. You have got to be joking right? Read Skeet0311's 10:32 pm July 17th post. It may help you out in the long run.

posted by jojomfd1 at 12:35 AM on July 18

Being black is a chance of birth. Not an excuse. "If he did the crime, then, He must do the time!" Being black He should know that he is under a microscope and he should be MAN enough and Intelligent enough to realize it and watch his "P,s and Q's even more. Just remember an indictment only means that the grand jury decided that there is enough evidence to go forward with a trial, that is still quite a long way from a conviction. You see, this is the sickening fucking shit I'm always referring to here. I mean look at how many times he is called a "sick fuck" etc. One "sick fuck" goes as far as stating that he should know his life is under a microscope because he's black. I'm black, should I know to watch my p's and q's? Remember he has only been accused of the crime and look at this bullshit make shift wanna be lynch mob. This is exactly the shit Chico (rip) was referring to. The funny thing is the outrage by some people that "some of the dogs were killed" is fucking hilarious to me. Guess what they do to that cow before you eat it. Guess what they do to that chicken before you sit down with your bbq sauce. Guess what they have been doing to greyhounds for years after they are not fast anymore (trust me folks, "dog racing" isn't big in the projects, so guess who is running that business). Guess what they do to that little baby lamb you love so much with the mint jelly. Wait, everybody here is a vegetarian right? It just blows me away that so much outrage can be expressed toward someone ACCUSED of something and not one word was mentioned or discussed when, about a month ago a "high profile" white athlete (while on steroids and painkillers) choked his wife and mentally retarded son to death before killing himself. Where were all the "scumbag" posts then? One person goes as far as saying he is friends with a UFC fighter ( that got his ass beat in the 1st round recently) and wants Vick to fight him. UFC, where human beings beat each other senseless and it's just a matter of time before an MMA fighter gets murdered in the cage. But hey that's cool to watch right? If a fucking horse (that is forced to race mind you) breaks it's leg, what the fuck do you think happens to it? I'll give you a hint: Barbaro....Oh wait, he wanted to run around in circles with a man on his back. Besides a white guy killed Barbaro, so he was "euthanized". That's different. Get a fucking clue people.

posted by Bishop at 01:38 AM on July 18

What's a nubian?

posted by igottheblues at 03:03 AM on July 18

Besides a white guy killed Barbaro, so he was "euthanized". That's different. Get a fucking clue people. Seems like that example would be the exact opposite of dog fighting. They put the horse down because it was in pain, not because it was unable to inflict pain on other horses anymore.

posted by yerfatma at 05:39 AM on July 18

Obviously the dogs that were killed were killed for more than just "they didn't fight good". They are still worth money uninjured. They were injured beyond help and euthanized. But black gang member thugs wearing bling killed them so they were electrocuted, hanged and "slammed to the ground" etc. Like it matters what makes them dead. Chris Benoit choked his retarded son and wife to death..what makes you more "sick"?...no comment? These guys fought dogs (allegedly) and then euthanized a few, 'call congress cause those rich negros are at it again'. What's the world coming to.

posted by Bishop at 06:02 AM on July 18

I don't get it: what does Chris Benoit have to do with it? Is it your contention that would excuse Michael Vick's alleged actions? Or that the site has to report on every white athlete-related crime before it can accept posts about black athlete-related crime? Benoit wasn't convicted of anything. Shouldn't you be consistent and defend him as well? Thanks for throwing "retarded" in there. It well reflects the nuance in your argument.

posted by yerfatma at 06:25 AM on July 18

The difference, as I see it, is that any freakin' moron understands what Chris Benoit did was absolutely horrible. There's no arguing that. We don't need 86 comments pointing that out. What Vick has been involved in, however, is always worthy of debate because it involves animals. Some people will always approach the inhumane treatment of dogs/animals as the worst thing someone can do. But dogfighting/cockfighting, etc. are still acceptable and practiced by a large, underground society. Some, though they don't probably admit it out in the open, get a kick out of baiting and/or fighting animals. My biggest problem is with the thought processes of Vick. Why would he become involved in this type of activity, whether it was as a participant or a backer? Is he too stupid to realize what the ramifications would be if it was uncovered? That's a tragedy. He basically works at throwing away what's left of his already-shaky NFL quarterbacking gig.

posted by dyams at 07:36 AM on July 18

Chris Benoit choked his retarded son and wife to death..what makes you more "sick"?...no comment? Why in the world would you even bring in the "The Crippler" Chris Benoit into this conversation? To make a point? Weak. Look, I'm no legal expert but didn't the Duke lacrosse team get indicted as well? See what happened there, right? The public and the media started to make assumptions just like in this scenerio before it was ultimatly decided by the courts. Just let this play out before anyone starts to call for Vick's head. I am no Mike Vick apologist because if he did in fact fund this dog fighting ring, then throw him in jail for his actions but as of right now, the man is not guilty of anything except having family members that apparently took advantage of Vick's generosity.

posted by BornIcon at 07:42 AM on July 18

Okay Bishop I will agree that Chris Benoit was a "sick fuck". As far as I am concerned he and Mike Vick can both burn in hell. I guess the only difference is that Benoit got to go straight in while Vick will only get bumped up to the front of the line when it is his turn.

posted by urall cloolis at 07:55 AM on July 18

Bishop, if you want to jump to a man's defense based on the color if his skin (which I can only assume by your 1:38 AM CDT on July 18 rant), you'd do much better sticking to the 'he hasn't been convicted- he's innocent until proven guilty' angle; You lose major credibility with the 'Give me a break, at least he's not Chris Benoit' shtick... While I would tend to agree that 'an indictment only means that the grand jury decided that there is enough evidence to go forward with a trial, that is still quite a long way from a conviction' and anyone is entitled to his day in court, I can't help but think that there is NO way that a grand jury would find enough evidence to indict me of dogfighting charges... Where there's smoke, there's usually fire, etc. etc. (Igottheblues- What's a Nubian... classic!)

posted by don-peyote at 07:58 AM on July 18

Where there's smoke, there's usually fire, etc. etc. I feel obligated to point out English Common Law (and thus the US legal system) is based on the premise this isn't so.

posted by yerfatma at 08:01 AM on July 18

Let's clear some things up. 1. Innocent until proven guilty only applies to our justice system, not sportsboards. I think he's guilty of some horrendous crimes. Before he was indicted, there were people posting "he hasn't even been indicted yet." Now he has, some of us are just ahead of the curve. 2. Torturing a dog and then killing it, is not euthanizing it. 3. It's not about a race conspiracy. If you don't own houses where there are illegal activities going on then you make it a lot harder for the government to form this "conspiracy" against you. If you're black when you commit a crime then they will be indicting a black man when they prosecute the criminal.

posted by Familyman at 08:06 AM on July 18

Yerfatma, I understand the legal system has different principles; I was speaking generally, not legally... I mean, OJ Simpson is legally innocent, right?

posted by don-peyote at 08:07 AM on July 18

BornIcon, I think Vick is now innocent until found guilty of being a willing participant in the promotion of dog fighting and the actions that surround it.

posted by gfinsf at 08:10 AM on July 18

I love how Chris Benoit's a "white athlete" now that Bishop can use him to make tendentious points about race. Pro wrestling is soap opera. The only resemblance to sport is the grueling physical toll of what they do, which encourages them to 'roid up. Stop being an apologist for dog fighting, Bishop. Using the verb "euthanize" to describe getting a maimed dog wet and electrocuting it may be the most ridiculous thing said in this discussion, and that's saying a lot. Well, I dont know about you, but Im about willing to bet he will spend minimum if any time in prison. My guess is that some of the others will do time but they will ensure that Vick doesn't take the hit, for practical reasons as much as anything else. A maximum six-year sentence isn't much, and Vick's the one with the money to assure them all an aggressive defense. Vick's definitely going to be suspended, though. The Falcons are in a rough spot.

posted by rcade at 08:14 AM on July 18

To follow up on that point, Vick reportedly lied to the commissioner and Goodell is going to hand down a suspension.

posted by rcade at 08:15 AM on July 18

BornIcon, I think Vick is now innocent until found guilty of being a willing participant in the promotion of dog fighting and the actions that surround it. Pretty much. I mean, these are just allegations. It's just funny to me how people are quick to jump the gun over allegations without actually hearing or even knowing the facts but that's the way the 'court of public opinions' seems to be.

posted by BornIcon at 08:25 AM on July 18

I couldn't agree more rcade. Vick's lying to Goodell is no where near as disgusting as the actions alledged in the charges, but when you lie to the judge (Goodell) bad stuff happens and I think Vick will be suspended and then gone if convicted. And if convicted, may he feel a "large" amount of the pain he dished out.

posted by gfinsf at 08:37 AM on July 18

I have to agree with rcade as well. If he is formally charged, I can assure you that the prosecution will maul the co-defendants and Vick will probably skate out with 5 years of probation - MAYBE.

posted by okoeedrifter126 at 08:44 AM on July 18

My intention is to point out all "High Profile" celebs' are under a microscope and their lives are publicly scrutinized. Anyone (Mike Vick in this case) should have the intelligence to keep himself out of situations as these. Whether he is guilty or not will be decided later. It is in his own realm of possibiliity to have his legacy be remembered as either an outstanding athlete, who can be a role model for kids, a good representative of the black community and just a good all-around guy to be respected by all or just another ghetto, street n***** that threw his life and talents away. I am a black male from the "ghetto with 2 teenage age boys that adored Vick. Now what do I tell them? He was their "hero". True....an indictment isn't a conviction. Ask those college "white boys" (the Duke LaCrosse team) that our Honorable (?) Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpiton publically wanted to hang. (Wonder if Bishop would refer to these 2 as "sick F***s)? But in this case it seems as if the Govt. seems to have "dotted their I's and crossed their T's pretty well. And BISHOP your input about the cows,sheep chickens etc. is totally ridiculess. BIG difference in putting down animals for food uder prescibed methods or having fun watching two animals literally rip each other apart for the glee and enjoyment of it. If you don't know the difference then maybe the "sick f***'s" title you give these other posts would aptly apply to yourself. ( I'm sure there are a few doctors in your city that could be of help to you. May I suggest giving them a call.) Also the F*** word is not necessary in a sentence to make it a complete sentence. It only puts emphasis on your own ignorance instead of inhancing the point. Might want to point that out to the doctors as well. (Just a suggestion).

posted by skeet0311 at 08:49 AM on July 18

I think Goodell's walking himself into a trap by setting a new standard for punishing players. Sooner or later, owners are going to get tired of taking a money hit for his get-tough reputation. Losing Vick will cost the Falcons millions.

posted by rcade at 09:00 AM on July 18

Hey, if you've recently joined Sportsfilter -- welcome! You definitely want to check out this SpoFi link. It's our rules of the road here to ensure we all play nice, that in the course of discourse no one kicks anyone else in the balls or crotchal region where balls would be, that no one gets a time out on the bench, or suspended. We now return you to your regularly scheduled outrage and fury.

posted by jerseygirl at 09:01 AM on July 18

We now return you to your regularly scheduled outrage and fury. Maybe that should be our motto.

posted by BornIcon at 09:20 AM on July 18

I think Goodell's walking himself into a trap by setting a new standard for punishing players. Sooner or later, owners are going to get tired of taking a money hit for his get-touch reputation. Losing Vick will cost the Falcons millions. Yeah, it's unfortunate that the Falcons have built their franchise around Vick to have this all happen. Even if Vick is exonerated, he will never really be free of this. It's probably already costing the Falcons. Who wants to walk around with a Vick jersey now? I'm not sure how this personal conduct policy is going to work if Goodell is going to be suspending players based on allegations. An indictment isn't a list of facts, it's a list of items that the defendants are being accused of. Obviously, there are supposed to be facts to back them all up, but it doesn't make it so. And, if you suspend Vick for a long time, and he is acquitted and has been falsely accused, then what?

posted by bperk at 09:24 AM on July 18

rcade, but what is their argument? We are going to lose milions because you won't let this felon play for us?? I think this and the Pacman incident/s are going to get a whole bunch of players to think twice and then some. There are far more players doing good than bad and if it costs an owner some $$ then let him/her learn their lesson. Don't ever lower any standards and make bad behavior acceptable.

posted by gfinsf at 09:25 AM on July 18

My point is that (as a black man) take great offense when a "High Profile" black person hurts me, my family, my black community and the whole image of the the black race by his actions, and for that he should be given the MAXIMUM sentence IF convicted for the Crime of dogfighting. He as a "HIGH PROFILE" person (if convicted) has hurt more than just a "bunch of dogs". He has hurt an entire race There are good and bad people of every race. The kind of people who think Vick's actions are a reflection on an entire race are ignorant anyway, so I don't see the point in giving more importance to his actions than they deserve.

posted by bperk at 09:28 AM on July 18

Let's all agree that Vick is a SCUMBAG! whether, black/white/purple etc.... still a SCUMBAG. It's just another asshole celebrity/athlete who doesn't have the common sense or morals to realize that they were given great opportunities in life to make a difference with their fame and fortune, but instead piss it away on stupid and arrogant choices in their lives. And let's face reality, a high powered asshole attorney that will make a fortune defending his client, will probably get a light slap on the wrist for Vick once everything is said and done. And after all is said and done Vick might be traded or released by the Falcons, yet he will still have his multi-millions and eventually be picked up by some other team either here in the NFL or the CFL.

posted by koolhandvuk at 09:29 AM on July 18

And, to add to jerseygirl's PSA, although it's not part of the guidelines...for heaven's sake, someofyou, you don't really need to come back to the thread every few hours with another safe-behind-my-screen rant about what you'd like to do to Michael Vick that uses slightly different invective and references different body parts, but that is otherwise indistinguishable with the itself-not-very-original screed of righteous indignation that you posted a couple hours back. We heard you the first time, really.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:29 AM on July 18

I mean, OJ Simpson is legally innocent, right? No, OJ Simpson is legally not guilty. /lights fuse

posted by grum@work at 09:32 AM on July 18

skeet, just stop. For the love of asterisks and CAPS and parenthesis and quotation marks, please just stop.

posted by jerseygirl at 09:34 AM on July 18

Bishop, my word, get a grip. The Vick thing became a Federal case because the Commonwealth Attorney for Surry County, Gerald Poindexter, had a search warrant in hand backed by a great deal of solid information, and chose to let the warrant expire rather than execute it. Poindexter is African American. Not only did he not move on Mike Vick, he was also the one that started hollering out the race card when the Feds took over after he chose to do nothing about Vick. BTW, it wasn't the FBI with guns blazing that moved in on this poor, unfortunate high profile black athlete. It was the Department of Agriculture. Mr Poindexter, you seem to be spineless, clueless, a poor imitation of Jesse and Al, and low on professional ethics. Maybe you were even trying to cut a brother some slack by looking the other way. For your meritorious conduct, you have been chosen to receive an exclusive, all-expenses paid double bunking with Mike Nifong. Rich McKay and Arthur Blank of the Falcons, if you have brains in your heads, you have known for a while that things were not right with your star player. For allowing Mike Vick to be himself in his own special way without apparently conducting any sort of investigation of your own into his conduct, for steadfastly supporting and enabling him through his travails, for being in such denial that you traded your #2 QB while local and national law enforcement officials were becoming very interested in your main guy, and for being on a European vacation this week as the heavy shit was being handed down by the grand jury when any executive with a clue would have been at home and on the case, trying to figure out where this bad scene was headed - for all your negligence, dereliction of duty, and lack of resolve or initiative, you have been chose to be triple-bunked with Myles Brand. (For those who don't remember, he was Bob Knight's boss at Indiana who didn't have the balls or brains to fire Knight despite having an overwhelming amount of just cause.) Mr. Blank, if you can't bring yourself to get Vick gone, you know what they say at Home Depot: "You can do it. We can help". Commissioner Goodell, when is that press conference going to get started?

posted by beaverboard at 09:36 AM on July 18

- dangerously walking on eggshells here as this post is about a business decision and not race - Hey who else saw those scathing headlines about Matt Schaub the other day? What? You didn't? Maybe it was worth the gamble to keep one of the most exciting field presences in a long time behind center but... I would have thrown my eggs in with the more modestly talented and less allegation prone QB. Well maybe not in fantasy football where there are no negative points assigned for dog fighting and animal cruelty indictments.

posted by gradys_kitchen at 09:45 AM on July 18

gradys_kitchen..... I think you have some scrambled eggs in your basket!

posted by koolhandvuk at 09:47 AM on July 18

Skeet0311, you're not helping. There is a way to say what you're trying to get across without using explosive words.

posted by justgary at 09:47 AM on July 18

Bishop... After reading your weirdest rant yet, I feel I must ask: do you condone, and/or participate in, dogfighting? From this link, you can clearly see the preferred methods of euthenasia for cats and dogs: Dogs and Cats Preferred methods Barbiturates By far the most acceptable technique for euthanasia of dogs and cats is i.v. administration of sodium pentobarbital at a dose of 150 mg/kg, with almost immediate unconsciousness followed by respiratory depression. Inhalant anesthetics Halothane or isoflurane may be used as an acceptable means of euthanasia. Exposure should be maintained for at least one minute after apparent clinical death (cessation of respiration). Vital signs should be checked for at least five minutes after exposure to ensure that unintended recovery does not occur. You'll note that nowhere in there does it recommend tossing the dog in a bathtub with a hair dryer in it, or holding it underwater until it drowned, or beating it to death, or grabbing it by its hind legs and swinging it like a baseball bat against the ground until it dies. Guess who else tortured animals? Jeffrey Dahmer. Ted Bundy. Ed Gein. John Wayne Gacy. All white guys, and all sick fucks. Hope that makes you feel better. When you rant and rave about Steve Foley, or Pacman Jones, or Ron Artest, or anybody else, depite your occasional over-the-top hyperbole, I can see where you're coming from, and appreciate your point. Here, however, you've gone off the deep end. Comparing euthanizing Barbaro with torturing dogs is the most half-assed leap of logic I've ever seen. This isn't a fake water bottle with an "unknown particulate" inside. This is barbaric and inhumane. Big difference. To the people saying that Michael Vick should be tortured, mauled by dogs, have his nuts chopped off, etc., you're incorrect. He should have his day in court, and if he's convicted beyond reasonable doubt, should suffer the legally accepted punishment for his crimes. Disband the lynch mob and leave it to the authorities. Get a fucking clue people. Physician, heal thyself.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 09:50 AM on July 18

Beaverboard, I think you need to get a grip. Prosecutors let search warrants expire all the time for thousands of different procedural reasons. Implying that Poindexter did it because he was black to give another black man a break is just racist. I would have thrown my eggs in with the more modestly talented and less allegation prone QB. Yeah, I bet the wish they held on to Schaub now. Maybe they will try to get Culpepper. Harrington in Miami was the same as Harrington in Detroit. He is not the answer.

posted by bperk at 09:50 AM on July 18

Sorry Jerseygirl, but, that was the way I was taught. Guess I'll have to start a post on hanging my teacher.

posted by skeet0311 at 09:53 AM on July 18

Also, for all of you thinking of interesting and blood thirsty ways of punishing vick using the very dogs he 'may' have tortured, here is my suggestion: https://secure.hsus.org/01/makeadonation?qp_source=gabam3

posted by gradys_kitchen at 09:59 AM on July 18

I think one other thing to think about is if Vick is thrown out of the NFL, he is no Joe Montana, Brady or Manning....At best, he is an excitng player who disappoints. If you were a GM, would you trade picks or players for him?? Next year if Atlanta drafts the kid from Louisville, and they will try with Petrino, there is a real potential for excitment. What "real" football fan would want Vick as his/her QB to win a Super Bowl. Not me and I bet not you.

posted by gfinsf at 10:08 AM on July 18

Sorry Jerseygirl, but, that was the way I was taught. Guess I'll have to start a post on hanging my teacher. Comment icon posted by skeet0311 at 9:53 AM CDT on July 18 Yeah, only if it is sports related, you will.

posted by jerseygirl at 10:20 AM on July 18

Vick is screwed. A couple of things: 1. While an indictment doesn't mean guilty and other big name athletes have escaped conviction, those points ignore the key under-lying fact here: this is a federal indictment. The old adage about how one can indict a ham sandwich is a comment on the indicting process. It is not a comment on the likelihood of conviction. If this was state court (where OJ and Ray, etc were tried), the indictment would be less important and the prosecutors vastly less talented. But this is federal court. Federal prosecutors don't proceed with indictments until they know they will get a conviction. The conviction rate is above 95% of those who are indicted. Given that the indictment included the testimony of at least four cooperating witnesses that federal prosecutor thought was strong enough to bring before the grand jury, coupled with the fact that one or more of the other three guys will likely roll on Vick as he is the main target, that 95% conviction rate is probably up towards the 99.5% conviction rate. And he is in the rocket docket in federal court in Richmond, so the defense won't be able to use delay tactics to build a defense or drag it out. And everything about federal court is worse for him: more competent prosecutors, stricter judges, more prosecution-friendly procedural rules, more prosecution-friendly jury pools, and on and on. In short, this indictment means a whole hell of a lot. There is at least a 95% chance he is convicted. 2. The federal law he was charged under falls under the RICO statute. That this is under federal law and not state law further increases the likelihood of jail time.. Whereas the state case would be whether he broke the dog fighting statute, under Federal Law, the issue is gambling on an illegal activity. Suddenly, the same act which would just be dog-fighting under state law, becomes racketeering, gambling, mail fraud, income tax invasion, criminal acts across state lines, involvement in a racketeer influenced corrupt organization, and a host of other federal crimes that all up the ante. Because he is being charged with conspiracy as well and being charged under racketeering statutes, he can be criminally liable for anything that was done by his co-conspirators or this organization run out of his property. 3. Do not rule out the possibility of further indictments against him. _____ This guy is hosed. Whether he plays football again is the least of his concerns. He is facing a near certainty of jail fines and enormous fines.

posted by dios at 10:28 AM on July 18

Sorry Jerseygirl, but, that was the way I was taught. Guess I'll have to start a post on hanging my teacher. How about you try playing by the rules of this site instead? 0 for 5...

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:54 AM on July 18

To further what dios said.

posted by justgary at 11:05 AM on July 18

dios, thanks for that. When I mentioned the indicting a ham sandwich, it was more in the long-since-dashed hopes of pouring a little water on things. Unfortunately, it looks like the water was followed by a bit of electricity in-thread. Of all the things my father ever taught me, one of the most valuable was: "If you commit a crime, don't cross state lines doing it." Yes, yes he did.

posted by yerfatma at 11:10 AM on July 18

Can we all just get along! This has nothing to do with black athletes or white athelets, Dahmer or Manson. Vick made a dumb ass decision period. Guilty or not; this will effect the income and image of the Falcons and the NFL. It's all about the MONEY people. How the hell do you own property and not have a clue whats happening on it ? If that is the case, he should serve time just for being that ignorant. If you call yourself a professional then be that on all levels. BACK TO THE MONEY. If innocent; does anyone really believe that Falcon fans and players are going to rally around a QB that just does'nt seem to have what it takes to get them to the next level? (Not) How many animal activist are Falcon fans? How many tickets will sell just to see Vick play now? Watch those number 7 jerseys start to pile up. How many parents are going to actually run out and get litte jimmy (or susie) a Vick jersey now? BOTTOM LINE you f... with the image of the league, you f... with the image of my team, that f.... with the money; so f... you Michael Vick.

posted by fourthreeforty at 11:15 AM on July 18

I hope that I'm not throwing petrol on the fire here, but I also think that where the treatment of animals is concerned, human nature is a bit interesting. Whenever there is a human tragedy, people seem to respond with empathy for those suffering. But when an animal suffers, the reaction seems to be more vocal and outraged. As an example, when the local food bank is low on donations, which is, like, always, public reaction a bit mild. But when the animal shelter is low on pet chow, people are more inclined to get a bag of dog food and donate it. Perhaps it is the perception that animals are helpless and that we are their caretakers, whereas humans should be able to take care of themselves. Now, I'm not with PETA or anything, it's just my own observation.

posted by THX-1138 at 12:08 PM on July 18

Federal prosecutors don't proceed with indictments until they know they will get a conviction. The conviction rate is above 95% of those who are indicted. The 95% is true, but that's primarily because most cases never make it to trial. Defendants plea bargain rather than risk going to jail for a lengthy sentence in a federal prison in which there is no parole (and you'll serve roughly 85% of your sentance) So my best guess is still that he pleas and gets a huge fine and probation.

posted by bdaddy at 12:32 PM on July 18

I hope that I'm not throwing petrol on the fire here, but I also think that where the treatment of animals is concerned, human nature is a bit interesting. True. It's also interesting that Vick plays pro football, a sport that leaves many of its players broken and shortens their lives.

posted by rcade at 12:36 PM on July 18

It never fucking fails with this place, Black man indicted= must mention OJ, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. Pro wrestling is soap opera. Yea and the craziest mustache threads that pop up here every year are all about sports too. Then there are the Maurice Clarett threads that were 60 posts long because he jacked someone for a cell phone. Keep in mind he wasn't involved with any sport at the time and yet he found his way into several threads here at Spofi. Benoit was an athlete on juice. Just as many kids knew Chris Benoit as they do Mike Vick. His business is referred to as "sports entertainment". My point is that (as a black man) take great offense when a "High Profile" black person hurts me, my family, my black community and the whole image of the the black race by his actions, and for that he should be given the MAXIMUM sentence IF convicted for the Crime of dogfighting. He as a "HIGH PROFILE" person (if convicted) has hurt more than just a "bunch of dogs". He has hurt an entire race Get off the pipe "brother". All I want to know is, will every one show up in the 'Mike Vick found innocent' thread like they did in the "I told you the white boys from Duke were innocent thread". Will any of you support him suing the media for their part is this bullshit? I feel I must ask: do you condone, and/or participate in, dogfighting? Do you condone the circus? Zoos? Any sport involving animals? If you do, you condone animal cruelty on 1 level or another. You ever had a leg of Lamb? Take a guess at how they kill the baby sheep. Killing an animal for food is different? Yea eating it is much less cruel then burying it. Stop acting like these guys would just walk out to the kennel, randomly select a dog and set it on fire. At least none of the dogs were tied up and dragged to death because they were black. Or shot by police because they wouldn't 'do what they are told'. The accepted racism here is a fucking insult. Take a look back at the Duke thread when they were 1st indicted and see how many people were calling for them to be mauled by animals. And for all you newly found 'activists', take a look at this "sports"event that happens every year and then find the corresponding 'Spofi outrage thread'. from the article; Besides the obvious cruelty, dogs also pay a terrible price behind the scenes. Not every puppy born is a fast runner, and those who do not make the grade are usually killed—by bludgeoning or drowning—for not possessing monumental stamina and speed. Guess how many Black folk compete in that event. Half of you don't even like Pitbulls. They are even banned in some neighborhoods. But when an animal suffers (at the hands of rich Black thug gang members), the reaction seems to be more vocal and outraged. fixed. Evidence? Search threads and comments for 'Spofi members against the Iditarod". White athlete on steroids kills retarded son....no story here. Black athlete "might" be involved in dogfighting...get the rope and torches, we're on our way to a 100 poster. If he is found innocent there won't even be a thread unless it's a thread full of 'I can't believe they let that coon go'.

posted by Bishop at 12:38 PM on July 18

"Unfortunately though, how often do high profile people actually do time when they break the law? Once in a blue moon maybe?" In this country the true legal punishment for the wealthy is to have their name in the paper/on the internet every day linked to a criminal case. (No, not all publicity is good.) Maybe even that doesn't hurt but to stand by as the best defense attorneys your money can buy drain your bank account certainly does.

posted by Newbie Walker at 12:42 PM on July 18

Fuck, if I knew there was going to be a flameout, I would have brought marshmallows and skewers.

posted by jerseygirl at 12:51 PM on July 18

Thanks JerseyGirl for reminding us of those, but when men argue, esp. a subject like this, we do it with a bit more aggression and testostereone. Our Bad. Consider the new can of worms opened.

posted by gradys_kitchen at 12:53 PM on July 18

All I want to know is, will every one show up in the 'Mike Vick found innocent' thread like they did in the "I told you the white boys from Duke were innocent thread". Will any of you support him suing the media for their part is this bullshit? What leads you to believe he is innocent? White athlete on steroids kills retarded son....no story here. That story basically played itself out...He killed himself, so no presumption of innocent or guilt, no debate to be had on the subject. Stop acting like these guys would just walk out to the kennel, randomly select a dog and set it on fire. At least none of the dogs were tied up and dragged to death because they were black. Actually eight of the dogs were killed for not being "ring worthy", not being good fighting dogs, not because they were injured. Those dogs were hanged, drowned and shot. Good try Bishop. Keep trying to dance around the issue here. Race has nothing to do with the outrage toward Vick, at least it doesn't from me. What has been said, done or acted upon that makes you feel so strongly that Vick is innocent? Will you join the outrage WHEN he is convicted or will you try to find more excuses?

posted by urall cloolis at 12:57 PM on July 18

Bishop...you must be from da hood. Cuz yo reazonn' is dope... Oh sorry, I forgot that I was dealing with intelligent bloggers who don't condone ingorant acts of violence whether it was on human being or a helpless tied up animal. But I guess it's Ok because it was a ghetto rich athlete with no fuckin' common sense.

posted by koolhandvuk at 12:57 PM on July 18

If he is found innocent there won't even be a thread unless it's a thread full of 'I can't believe they let that coon go'. The regulars here would never accept a comment calling a black athlete a "coon" and I'm tired of reading that kind of smear from you. There's a minimum level of good intent you have to assume in people in order to have a civil conversation with them. You have never shown it here on SportsFilter, and I'm tired of letting it slide. Go fight your race war somewhere else.

posted by rcade at 12:59 PM on July 18

White athlete on steroids kills retarded son....no story here. Black athlete "might" be involved in dogfighting...get the rope and torches, we're on our way to a 100 poster. You're really gonna hang your hat on that comparison? How many threads on sportsfilter have there been on the WWE? You're comparing Vick, a very popular player, playing the position, in the most popular sport in the US with a guy I had never heard of who participates in a fake sport? If this had been Peyton Manning you think the thread wouldn't be 100 comments long? Think he could electrocute dogs and people would just shrug their shoulders and say "ah, he's white, no big deal"? If he is found innocent there won't even be a thread unless it's a thread full of 'I can't believe they let that coon go'. And if said it would be deleted and the member banned. It would also come from someone who signed up that day just to troll. That's an unfair assessment and an insult to the rank and file sportsfilter member that is here every day to discuss sports. Also, what rcade said.

posted by justgary at 01:05 PM on July 18

I explained the situation to my younger brother who has less of an interest in football than I do. He has no idea who Michael Vick let alone what color he is. His response: This Vick guy is a sick fuck. White athlete on steroids kills retarded son....no story here. As a recovering Pro Wrestling fan I wanted to post this thread but I didn't. I figured more time would be spent on a)arguing weather or not Pro Wrestling is a sport or b)the role steroids played in all of this. There is a story there but wrestling is not widely accepted as a sport so it was left out. To suggest that this story was any less tragic because Benoit was white is an insult to the memory of his wife and son. I would have brought marshmallows and skewers. I'll bring the chocolate and grahm crackers and we can make smores and cuddle over the warmth of l_l_b's recently flamed good name.

posted by HATER 187 at 01:09 PM on July 18

Isn't interesting how ignorance and stupidity never fails to point itself out?

posted by THX-1138 at 01:30 PM on July 18

I can't help but think the San Diego Chargers are breathing a collective sigh of relief, thinking back to the 2001 NFL draft, when they traded the number one pick to Atlanta, who took Vick, and "settled" for the number five pick, some guy named Tomlinson. If I have that right, I don't think it's a reach possibly ranking that the best move in recent football history.

posted by dyams at 01:36 PM on July 18

Go fight your race war somewhere else. I don't know if that means ban-nation or not, but if it does, can you close this thread to make things fair? The thread's awful enough; the inevitable taunting would be worse.

posted by yerfatma at 01:59 PM on July 18

In a previous life I was involved in a number of "high profile" cases. There was not a single one of these that did not invoke an oh shit when we learned its nature or the name of the person involved. It always meant ten times the normal amount of work, not because the person was getting a break, but because of the level of scrutiny from all directions. If it wasn't completely ironclad we wouldn't move forward. A federal indictment of this scope indicates that they are very confident of a conviction. Until he is convicted, I can't agree with the NFL suspending him. I would expect that if the Falcons ownership has one brain cell amongst them, that they make the backup QB the starter even before training camps start. Guilty or not guilty, this would be a huge distraction for not only Vick but the entire team.

posted by irunfromclones at 02:30 PM on July 18

Until he is convicted, I can't agree with the NFL suspending him Conduct (as in the leagues conduct policy) has nothing to do with convictions. Ask Pacman. Maybe NFL owners should treat their players this way. I can see it now .... A Blank: Vick had us so close, but I just don't think he's gonna be able to take us to the next level. B Petrino: Probably not. We got this great kid Joey ready to step in and take his place. I wish I still had that Matt dude. A Blank: Go ahead and take him out back and chop his balls off and stick a hot poker up his ass before you finish him off. B Petrino: You want me to chain Chris Redman next to Harrington to see if he's got the killer instinct.

posted by Ricardo at 02:50 PM on July 18

I think everyone is missing the fact that this took place back in 2002....doesn't say much for our society....This isn't a black or white issue......it's a stupidity issue....Vick falls into the category of the rich athlete that has nothing better to do with his time and money, hanging around the wrong people.

posted by stefex at 11:31 PM on July 18

The accepted racism here is a fucking insult. No shit, first of all I would never even think of saying half of the shit you do, and secondly if I did I would expect to be banned for it. Get something other than a PETA site for an article on the Iditarod. One may be inclined to believe a more neutral party than that. Guess how many Black folk compete in that event. Half of you don't even like Pitbulls. What do "black folk" and that event have to do with each other aside from geographic locations? If you want to run it go and do so. Or you meant something about "black folk" and pit bulls, but you wouldn't make that assumption would you? That would be stereotyping, and almost a kind of profiling. Aren't these some of the things you are constantly complaining about? Hypocrit!

posted by jojomfd1 at 12:04 AM on July 19

I think everyone is missing the fact that this took place back in 2002 According to the indictment the dogfighting operation involving Vick began in early 2001 and continued through April, 2007. Would it still be ongoing if not for the investigation? Probably.

posted by urall cloolis at 12:39 AM on July 19

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