04/25/24
December 14, 2005
McNabb fires back at NAACP prez's criticism that he's "mediocre": Personally, i'm not an eagles fan, but i'd say mcnabb is much more than mediocre. From reading the prez's opinion piece on mcnabb, it seems as though he tries to connect mcnabb's decreased scrambling during games and an old soundbyte of mcnabb saying that "everybody expects black quarterbacks to scramble." I think it probably had more to do with the qb playing with injuries, as opposed to him selling out.
Of course, the prez also loses me with quotes like these "Just think how the whole media circus could have been avoided had you had the courage to offer only a tiny fraction of your bonus this year to Owens and running back, Brian Westbrook."
posted by ninjavshippo to football at 07:20 PM - 110 comments
In my view Donovan McNabb is both a great player and a class act. And he's also an excellent role model. He'll be 100% back next year both physically and emotionally, and the Eagles will be back on track. And I ain't an Eagles fan either!
posted by The Casual Observer at 07:48 PM on December 14, 2005
Thank God it wasn't a white guy who said it.
posted by volfire at 07:51 PM on December 14, 2005
The NAACP is what is mediocre, what they done of signifigance in the past 5 years?
posted by Daddy-O at 07:54 PM on December 14, 2005
The NAACP is what is mediocre, what they done of signifigance in the past 5 years? I'm pretty sure that this isn't the opinion of the NAACP but rather a man who happens to be the leader of an NAACP chapter in Philadelphia. In the past five years, the NAACP has done more to fight racism and discrimination than most. I'd hardly call that mediocre.
posted by panoptican at 07:59 PM on December 14, 2005
Is it me, or do some african americans do alot to keep racism alive themselves . Last year (if I am not mistaken) 2 of the four QBs in theAFC/NFC championships were black, and I didnt even notice or think of it that way until a black man pointed it out. Isn't that what we all want, people not even thinking of race, but instead thinking of who the person is and how he does his job?
posted by Lunger24 at 08:23 PM on December 14, 2005
That's a weird opinion column. What does Donovan McNabb have to do with a black player who died playing college football in 1923? I can't believe McNabb continues to take so much heat related to his race. The guy always seemed pretty innocuous to me, and yet Limbaugh, Owens, and now this local NAACP dork have all taken shots at him.
posted by rcade at 08:28 PM on December 14, 2005
Is it me, or do some african americans do alot to keep racism alive themselves It's you.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:38 PM on December 14, 2005
Some, not all. But because I am white, I can't comment on this right? And some white people do to, but not all.
posted by Lunger24 at 08:40 PM on December 14, 2005
As a born and raised Eagles fan and also a whiteman(Iwas born that way too) I am extremely proud of Donovan McNabbs patience in the face of ridiculous racist statements. He is an excellent quarterback and Im sure he is equally as precious to his family and community. I do wish he would scramble more but understand that a sports hernia makes it pretty hard to run around like a little kid. Next year the Eagles will be back better than ever. Does this guy remember that Allen Iverson lives and plays in the same city? Even he is growing up a bit.
posted by GoBirds at 08:55 PM on December 14, 2005
Mc Nabb's performance speaks fot itself. I don't think he needs Jesse Jackson or the NAACP.
posted by JIM W. at 09:56 PM on December 14, 2005
A life long resident of the Hawaiian Islands, I am no Eagles fan, I do know however, that the Eagles have consistiently mustered some damn good teams, and the organization for the most part is a class act, stand up club. I tip my hat to most of the comments made in respect to Donovan. Especially to the one post made in reference to " playing at the level or point of where indidvuals are not cognitive of race or color". Kudos to this post and most of all kudos, respect and admiration for Donovan, truly a class act and one Hell of an athelete. In todays day and age, he(Donovan) should be emulated, admired and respected FOR the individual he is on the playing field as well as off. Mahalo
posted by Bradduh at 10:03 PM on December 14, 2005
I have watched NcNabb since his days at Syracuse, he has always given 110% everytime he steps onto the field. He has had some injuries this year that have restricted his movement. Cant we just play football and keep the race crap outof ot.
posted by SyrRugby at 11:23 PM on December 14, 2005
He is truly an awesome player on and off the field. No Eagles fan here, but I have a ton of respect and admiration for one of the better players in the NFL.
posted by baxterndino at 11:43 PM on December 14, 2005
It's a testament to McNabb's overall goodness as a person and athlete that all sides, from bigots like Limbaugh to baiters like Mondesire take shots at him. It's like some star said about fans at away games..."They don't boo you if you suck"
posted by vito90 at 12:50 AM on December 15, 2005
Another thread that mentions race.Seriously, what the hell is going on? Please stop. Why read so deep into this? this thread will only draw the pro-mcnabb people(which i am 1 of). race has nothing to do with this bullshit. The idiot that said this is a cowboys fan. nothing more. Whats so odd about that?
posted by RZA at 03:54 AM on December 15, 2005
If you don't want to talk about race, there's a pretty easy way to avoid that. I'm glad this NAACP column was linked here, because I can't recall a black athlete taking a shot quite like this one. The members of the Philly NAACP should sack their chapter president.
posted by rcade at 06:49 AM on December 15, 2005
Last time I checked Being a good or great player had nothing to do with color, but with pride and a love of the game.
posted by big dawg 1966 at 07:41 AM on December 15, 2005
I really think the media has a great deal to do with this issue. They are always the ones to say comments like " He's one of the great black quarterbacks in the league" instead of just saying He's a great quarterback. Maybe they should control their need to make it into a race issue.
posted by big dawg 1966 at 07:44 AM on December 15, 2005
McNabbs comments were what set this off into the realm of racism. He was faced with criticism about his frequency of running the ball and claimed it was now expected of him because he was black. Stupid comment Mr McNabb, I expect you to run the ball because your so fucking good at it. McNabb failed as leader to his team, he chocked in the superbowl? I don't agree with these statements at all. He got his team to the S.B. without The Nameless Idiot, and played decently in the bowl, the Pats just played better, no fault of Donavan's. I really don't see anyway you can blame McNabb for the actions of a certian wide reciever with a rather checkered past. I've been guilty of getting way too into these "non-topics" about racism, religion, ect. but I firmly believe that when you have a public forum to speak your mind, especially in America, you have to assume that others will assume the worst and watch your god damn mouth. You can say what ever you want but also remember people can interpit your words however they want. Sasquatch12154 Is it hard to see your keyboard with that white hood over your head?
posted by HATER 187 at 08:32 AM on December 15, 2005
Mike Lawson/ Lunger 24...you sound like a IDIOT.... The President of the Philadelphia chapter/NAACP has brought a unwanted negative light to this great organization with his personal opinion.....This is not the opinion shared by the Chapter...and you have the nerve to say that black athletes keep racism alive...what planet are you from..... RACISM WILL CONTINUE TO BE ALIVE ..OUTSIDE OF SPORTS....WHY? Because most (White/Black, etc) are afraid to talk about the Past, current issue.... Donovan has been a great leader on and off the field....he has not made a FOOL of himself like Terrel Owens.... Remember WE NEVER GOT OUR 40 ACRES AND A MULE.....
posted by gmkirk at 08:50 AM on December 15, 2005
The comments about Donovan were way out of line. In the end, all this really proves is that racism is alive and well on both sides of the issue. As long as we are blessed with free speech, you are going to have opinions like this Prez of a local NAACP. Its also funny to hear the links to what Rush Limbaugh said. I suppose the old saying still holds ture "what goes around comes around"
posted by daddisamm at 09:28 AM on December 15, 2005
Donovan McNabb is black? I just thought he was that guy who usually kicks the crap out of the Cowboys once a year.
posted by Desert Dog at 09:51 AM on December 15, 2005
That has to be the worst taunt I've ever read, Desert Dog. The Eagles play the Cowboys twice a year. And they just lost both times this season. Watched any sports lately?
posted by rcade at 09:58 AM on December 15, 2005
I am sort of wondering when we (as a society) will stop picking apart the socio-political opinions of athletes or entertainers and treating them as though they have any larger meaning. This kind of diatribe coming from someone whose opinions on race relations might be expected to be more valid than an athlete's, is quite surprising. Although I guess DMac could be considered an expert on black quarterbacks... I wish my Bills had a mediocre quarterback like him.
posted by sfts2 at 10:06 AM on December 15, 2005
Is philadelphia just totally emotionally fucked or what? Now that T.O's done they go after their injured star quarterback. It's like the entire city needs a nice bubble bath and some "alone" time to "recharge".
posted by chmurray at 10:17 AM on December 15, 2005
Actually, rcade, I'm a Cowboys fan. I know the Cowboys and Eagles play twice a year and I know the Cowboys swept the season series this year. I said he 'usually' beats Dallas once a year. When McNabb plays well, Dallas, and most teams, have trouble containing the guy. It wasn't supposed to be a taunt, it was supposed to be a compliment to McNabb. And yes, I've watched some sports lately.
posted by Desert Dog at 10:49 AM on December 15, 2005
im no eagles fan, but its hard for me to remember mcnabb being that good. all i remember are a bunch of pics. he never was all that mobile. sounds mediocre to me
posted by grizzay at 11:01 AM on December 15, 2005
Grizzay--did grade school get out early?
posted by daddisamm at 11:26 AM on December 15, 2005
I'm no Eagles fan either, but sports racism is for the most part kept alive by the players themselves. Ever notice that those that make the most noise are the least performing? McNabb is a quality player, and most of the time he just does his job and never says a thing. When this twit from the NAALCP says his stupidity and McNabb comments on it, he (the NAACP idiot) deserves everything he suffers from it. Only one comment on athletes speaking out on politics. When they do, then they deserve the politicians sticking their noses into the player's business. A sports personality has the right to comment to his representatives privately, but when he/she uses the media for this, they deserve all they get in retribution. Find something racist about that.
posted by mrhockey at 11:32 AM on December 15, 2005
"Is it me, or do some african americans do alot to keep racism alive themselves" Now there's a psychological spin on things for you...it seems to me that there's a common thread here between races. Higher class (economically) blacks and whites tend to shy away from talking about racist issues while the lower class don't. And I don't mean talk about them intelligently, either. Lower class whites tend to use racist jokes much more often and lower class blacks tend to discredit rich blacks as being out of touch with them, thus not "truly" black. At least from 20 years of living in the south, this is what I see. WHat makes this NAACP fellow's comments surprising, then, is that he is from the higher class that should be smart enough to be setting an example by not publicly talking about things like this because they know it just shouldn't be mentioned in today's society...trying to get racism out of the media, especially the sports media and the newspaper that the lower class reads, is a big step toward getting rid of the problem. This guy just set that back a few steps. Obviously whoever mentioned ESPN as being a culprit for always talking about McNabb in terms of black quarterbacks is absolutely right. I'd like to see a QB of ANY COLOR put up the numbers McNabb did and take a team to the NFC Title game with Fred Ex and Todd Pinkston. Wow for some reason that post sounded really communist to me. I better take a shower
posted by Masked at 11:36 AM on December 15, 2005
Grizzay--did grade school get out early? ZING!
posted by rocketman at 11:50 AM on December 15, 2005
First it was Rush dragging MacNabb into a racial fiasco now this guy. Throw TO in the mix and Donovan must be wondering what in the heck he did to deserve all this. He constantly has people bringing him into these rediculous situations and he handles them with class and dignity. At least as well or better than anyone could expect. What does he get for taking the high road when TO was bashing him in the media? Mondeshire(sp) ripping him for not being a 'black enough' QB and not giving up some of his paycheck when TO has a $49m contract. What a joke. Donovan is a guy that anyone, black or white, should look up to. Both for his play on the field and his conduct off it.
posted by stofer71 at 11:59 AM on December 15, 2005
Lower class whites tend to use racist jokes much more often The wealthy caucasians I went to high school with rather enjoyed the racial comedy. I think ignorant is ignorant. The wealthy just might be more sheltered, only mingling amongst themselves, thus shielding their true feelings from the masses.
posted by garfield at 12:16 PM on December 15, 2005
Where's Weedy?
posted by Termite at 12:31 PM on December 15, 2005
Lower class whites tend to use racist jokes much more often I'm pretty low class but I am not racist.
posted by HATER 187 at 12:42 PM on December 15, 2005
i think i might use this post in one of my classes to show how complicated an issue race remains in US society today. elsewhere in the world, race isn't like it is in america. in some places it's bad or similarly unjust, but nowhere but in the US of A is such an obvious issue so fervently brushed under a rug that by now is taller than a mountain. qmkirk's got it right, and no one responded - until the past is recognized, the present's destined to be stuck in the stagnant water of racism that we've yet to more than stir as a country ideologically "committed" to equality... with that as an example of commitment, it's no wonder our divorce rates are as high as they are. and don't forget that being white (which i am) and claiming this problem is someone else's fault (Sasquatch12154) is simple... i don't blame it on you sasqy, i blame it on our schools, which have failed to develop empathy in all stratas of US society since thomas jefferson came up with this neat experiment called a "meritocracy." i recommend we focus on something we know (sports) rather than something that we as a country remain inept to address (race relations).
posted by blue at 01:09 PM on December 15, 2005
Blame it on schools or the past? It's my job to raise my kids, no one else's. And if we get started on all the past wrongs to one race or another, then y'all better get packing, cause this was my race's country millenia before the white or black or brown man came. I have to agree that media types and sportscasters of either color also help to keep the race card in play. I'm pretty careful about who my kids look to as heros, and I have no problem with McNabb being one of them. My kids have all been in sports and the only thing that mattered to them was how well you play. I'm waitin on the weedman myself.
posted by irunfromclones at 01:50 PM on December 15, 2005
blue, do you really think the blame should lie with the schools? I think it starts at home, by a person's parents or guardians. Just my opinion.
posted by Desert Dog at 01:54 PM on December 15, 2005
Sasquatch12154 Is it hard to see your keyboard with that white hood over your head? Very cute. I'm pretty low class but I am not racist. And yet anyone with a different opinion from yours is?
posted by STLCardinalfan at 01:57 PM on December 15, 2005
this is the most intelligent comment on race yet.
posted by irunfromclones at 01:59 PM on December 15, 2005
Garfield I agree, I think the wealthy are just as racist underneath if not moreso. However, the wealthy tend to realize that airing comments like this in a public forum is only going to keep the cycle going, thus it shouldn't be done. Look, I'm not saying just ignoring the problem will make it disappear, thats not the case. But for the people who argue that even MORE awareness should be raised...you're just not connected with reality. Every time the race issue comes up on a Yahoo message board, just read the posts that are brought on because of it. And hey, this guy mentioned race and now we're in a racial discussion on a sports message board. Talking...and talking...and TALKING about the problem simply isn't going to fix it. What would you suggest be taught in schools about the race issue? Telling white high school kids that its the white man's fault just doesn't work very well when your audience is a bunch of rebellious kids that don't like to listen in the first place. That's why history books have been sterilized to not give the bad side of things...its playing to an audience. And yes, I'm aware of the bitter irony of writing about why an issue should not be written about.
posted by Masked at 02:11 PM on December 15, 2005
this is the most intelligent comment on race yet. Freeman notes there is no "white history month," and says the only way to get rid of racism is to "stop talking about it." The actor says he believes the labels "black" and "white" are an obstacle to beating racism. "I am going to stop calling you a white man and I'm going to ask you to stop calling me a black man," Freeman says. Freeman received Oscar nominations for his roles in 1987's "Street Smart," 1989's "Driving Miss Daisy" and 1994's "The Shawshank Redemption." He finally won earlier this year for "Million Dollar Baby." I think Freeman has it right. When people stop thinking of themselves as black and white, racism is over.
posted by STLCardinalfan at 02:12 PM on December 15, 2005
Also Hater, if you're lower class and not racist that's just plain wonderful. But unfortunately, because you are not racist doesn't mean the vast majority of lower class people aren't either.
posted by Masked at 02:14 PM on December 15, 2005
That's a good link, ironfromclones. I always have been a big Morgan Freeman fan-now I know why. The funny thing about all of this is the timing. The actual article came out in late november. It wasnt major news until Dan Patrick and ESPN starting talking about it in the last couple of days. I am not saying that this isnt news, but once again ESPN seems to be generating the news rather than reporting it... Racism is a terrible thing. We need to quit looking at stuff in black and white. I for one would like to make these judgements for myself not to have the media tell me what is or isnt racist. These comments the local NAACP prez were terrible, untrue, and stupid. The racist value of them is more impplied than anyting else. Obviously this guy has an ax to grind with McNab.
posted by daddisamm at 02:21 PM on December 15, 2005
but in a segregated society is it possible to not think of yourself as black or white - colorblindness might be a nice elementary school lesson, but we're generations from being to where that's a responsible ideology. should we ignore the achievement gap? the disproportionate racial makeup of our prisons? the segregated nature of most of our cities? colorblindness is a great conscience massager but it's not gonna make those problems disappear. neither is not talking about them. i'm not saying we need to talk about them in this venue either, and i certainly think the naacp pres in philly misjudged whatever he thought the positive outcome of his comment would be.
posted by blue at 02:27 PM on December 15, 2005
colorblindness is a great conscience massager but it's not gonna make those problems disappear. neither is not talking about them. Disagree. By definition "colorblindness" would cause the word "racist" to be dropped from dictionarys and if you tried to talk about it, people would have no idea what you were talking about.
posted by STLCardinalfan at 02:35 PM on December 15, 2005
but isn't there something inately hypocritical--or worse, an assumption that racial inequality (e.g., the achievement gap, the disproportionate prison population, the segregated neighborhoods, etc) is natural rather than manmade--in a society that claims it can't see color but that has such striking statistical trends along lines of race?
posted by blue at 02:43 PM on December 15, 2005
I just wish people all got along. I suppose thats a pipe dream but one well worth wishing. God created ALL men. I think it is right to quit thinking people white' black, red or yellow. But as just fellow men. That will take effort on everybody's part, But it is effort very much worth making. Donovan McNabb isn't just a good QB but I think a great one. And no, I am a browns fan not an eagles fan. Trade him to Cleveland I beg of you people in Philly. We could sure use him.
posted by dkern at 02:46 PM on December 15, 2005
McNabb...never has been what I would call an exceptional QB...good one, definitely! He also seems to have a good demeanor on and off the field. Perhaps his critics that are playing the race card, are truly a little upset that he didn't have Owens' back a few weeks ago.
posted by rjbpest at 02:51 PM on December 15, 2005
STLCardinalfan You want to defend Sasquash comments? Here we go. "They do all they can to keep this racist crap goin" While I was pointing out the ignorant comments of one for his blanket statement on a whole race, you choose to call me out and infer that I am the biggoted one here. "what a joke" if he thinks racism is a "joke" then he pretty well has validated my hood comment. Big man talks a good game online but I bet you if he took a rid into Ridgewood with me and tried his "y'all wanna keep racism going" shit there he would be a fucking stain on the road and little else.
posted by HATER 187 at 03:04 PM on December 15, 2005
if he took a rid into Ridgewood with me and tried his "y'all wanna keep racism going" shit there he would be a fucking stain on the road and little else. right...because violence will solve the problem. You can't make a man smarter by beating him. Way to perpetuate stereotypes, HATER 187. Are you part of the problem or part of the solution? I guess your name says it all.
posted by stofer71 at 03:15 PM on December 15, 2005
My point is that his racist attitude would get his kicked should he try to fling shit around the people you think he would want to hear his fucking bullshit. My name is in refrence to the fact that I have a tendency to hate on sports figures, not miniorities. The 187 is my love of hip hop.
posted by HATER 187 at 03:22 PM on December 15, 2005
his ass kicked. Don't type angry.
posted by HATER 187 at 03:22 PM on December 15, 2005
Hater, he did say "some" African Americans not all. Insinuating membership in the KKK for placing a little blame for the continuance of racism on both sides, is a little extreme.
posted by tselson at 03:25 PM on December 15, 2005
his ass kicked. Don't type angry. funny! and wise advice to boot. I think we agree on this issue...and I recognize your post for what it was, a statement that a sort of attitude should not and would not be tolerated. Unfortunately, we are a long way from living up to M. Freeman's ideal that as long as race is an issue it will be an issue. His comments mirror thougths I have had. I would love to think that my children have a chance at living in a world where race isn't the flash point it is in today's world. To address blue's comment: nowhere but in the US of A is such an obvious issue so fervently brushed under a rug that by now is taller than a mountain. The recent unrest in France and the many examples of racist issue's in the middle east and africa would contradict that this is a uniquely American issue. Unfortunately, intolerance is far too common across the globe.
posted by stofer71 at 03:39 PM on December 15, 2005
posted by grum@work at 03:41 PM on December 15, 2005
Yeah, well, I'm kind of an emotional guy sometimes. I was kinding of going with his use of "they" as blanket statement. My work and social enviorment involve a lot of African-Americans and the subject of race is really a touchy one. I've heard a lot of horror stories from co-workers' friends, etc. I really just want to eliminate that "us" and "them" mentality from the American psyche.
posted by HATER 187 at 03:42 PM on December 15, 2005
You can't make a man smarter by beating him. I disagree. A good asskicking makes a person at least hesitate and possibly even refrain completely the next time he or she wants to display the same type of behavior that earned the asskicking in the first place. That's a sort of learned intelligence, isn't it?
posted by wfrazerjr at 03:48 PM on December 15, 2005
You can't make a man smarter by beating him. Where were you when I was growing up? I always picked the wrench. Know why?
posted by yerfatma at 04:00 PM on December 15, 2005
NAACP president outraged by McNabb column
posted by justgary at 04:20 PM on December 15, 2005
I really just want to eliminate that "us" and "them" mentality from the American psyche. I will second that motion...
posted by stofer71 at 04:23 PM on December 15, 2005
grum, Interesting photo...care to share it's relevance?
posted by stofer71 at 04:25 PM on December 15, 2005
Interesting photo...care to share it's relevance? Train wreck. Referring to this thread.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 04:32 PM on December 15, 2005
While I was pointing out the ignorant comments of one for his blanket statement on a whole race, you choose to call me out and infer that I am the biggoted one here. You're seeing things that are not there. His comment was "some"... You chose to pounce on his statement. People who react as you did, not he, are the problem. Your reference to the KKK speaks volumes about your tolerance for other thoughts and perspectives especially when they disagree with yours.
posted by STLCardinalfan at 04:32 PM on December 15, 2005
I dont understand why race is a factor in everything. Is this guy fucking serious in saying McNabb shouldnt be a pocket passer? Did he ever watch Aaron Brooks? He never runs either. Saying that all African-Americans are trying to keep racism alive is a rediculous statement, but I really wish there wasnt such a strong focus on it. I mean how much of an issue is race in everyday life in this day and age?
posted by the don at 04:41 PM on December 15, 2005
Nothing derails one of these post like racism, religion or HATER 187
posted by HATER 187 at 04:43 PM on December 15, 2005
Dude I am glad Terrel Owens is gone, and I dont think that racism should not be a part of football or any sports. And I dont think that he should have made that comment because now everyone is going to think he is a racist. Go Eagles!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
posted by JediRocker99 at 04:50 PM on December 15, 2005
I also agree with The Casual Observer that McNabb, with the right training and exercise to keep in shape, will be 100% next season and be a whole lot better. I also hope that he starts scrambling a little more or he is going to get sacked after sack after sack.
posted by JediRocker99 at 04:54 PM on December 15, 2005
I have had this discussion with many in the past, and it is hard to honestly evaluate a black quarterback without some people considering it racist, but here is my take on the issue. It seems most of the high profile black quarterbacks have something in common, they just happen to be great athletes. Whether you are talking about Vick, Culpepper, or McNab the greatest attributes they possess are strength, speed, throwing arm and overall athleticism especially as it applies to their ability to run. Unfortunately, although that is a nice attribute when a quarterback is in trouble, the fact that a quarterback is in trouble in the first place bodes terribly for a teams chances at a championship. If your quarterback has to scramble regularly, or runs for substantial yardage, during a season you are not likely to win a Superbowl. It is a sign that the team has problems. Even John Elway lost a lot of superbowls until the time he stopped relying on his athleticism and started acting like a quarterback. It is no coincidence that the Minnesota Vikings with Culpepper had a dismal record. Now, with the same players, have won six in a row because Brad Johnson is at QB. It is not because Johnson is white, it is because he is a better QB. I am no fan of Terrell Owens but lets face it, he got fired for telling the truth as he sees it. As a star receiver he knows what the QB should be doing. This is not a black or white issue. It is just a fact that the greatest contributions a QB makes to his team have little to do with athleticism or a strong arm, and more to do with leadership, decision making, and the ability to read defenses. The success of a team depends on the key position of QB making it through the season without injury. Vick, McNab and Culpepper are great athletes, and may all prove themselves someday to be more than guys who can run and throw, but until they do they might as well play another position. Joe Montana or Peyton Manning may not run a 4.5 forty or have the strongest arms in the world but they know what the position of QB is all about. Even if Manning could run like the wind, what owner would want that investment doing so? Vick is an exciting player to watch, and after his knees are gone and he can no longer scamper down the field, he may get a chance to prove what kind of QB he is. Until then, the best defense against him is to allow him to throw and stop chasing him. Doug Williams won a super bowl, why because he played quarterback and threw when it was time to throw and when it was time to run he handed off, to John Riggins (a white fullback go figure). It only proves its not about race but about abillities. White men can jump (see winners of olympic high jump) and black men can play QB ( ie Doug Williams). It is possible to say McNab is an average QB on a good team without being racist. Its may be possible that its just the truth. Frankly I prefer to blame the coaches for allowing an athletic QB to be exploited without addressing the issues of why he has to constantly scramble when he should be handing off or getting rid of the ball.
posted by Atheist at 05:01 PM on December 15, 2005
Train wreck, now I get it. Funny, thanks lil. Sorry...a bit slow on the take today.
posted by stofer71 at 05:17 PM on December 15, 2005
Fran Tarkenton was one light-complected brother.
posted by Desert Dog at 05:38 PM on December 15, 2005
McNabb could've avoided this whole issue - which is relatively benign given its source and subject matter (Not scrambling is a disgrace to black people?!?) - if his entire response was: "I don't scramble as much because I have an enormous hernia and running makes my balls ache. Seriously, it's like offering them to a room full of hippies as hacky sacks. And they're all wearing steel toes."
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 05:43 PM on December 15, 2005
In case some of you were wondering what took me so long to post here. The delay was due to me trying to figure out how in the hell i could be in agreement with hater 187. but when it comes to this bs, i couldnt agree more. Any time someone says "they" referring to a race and saying basically that "alot of times they bring racism on themselves"?you have to understand that this will offend some people. whats funny to me is some of you actually cant figure out why its offensive. Its almost as if he is saying "if you werent Black/mexican/spanish or what have you, then you wouldnt have to worry about racism being directed towards you". In haters neighborhood maybe "thems fighting words". In my neighborhood it was(growing up). Maybe its not in yours.people are different. how the hell can someone tell someone else what offends them? To me thats just like saying "if you wernt black, we wouldnt have tied your ass to a pick up truck bumper and drug you around until you died". Thats racist! Im actually a little worried that more people here didnt agree with hater. but hey, maybe that says alot about some of the members here. There have been alot of threads dealing with,involving,or just mentioning race latley. its getting ridiculous. If you don't want to talk about race, there's a pretty easy way to avoid that posted by rcade at 6:49 AM CST on December 15 Who the hell joined spofi to have race related arguments every other damn day? Rcade maybe you have a point. Although race has been mentioned on 3 of the last 5 threads i've commented on in the past week."Ron artest wants to be traded". "Top 10 point gaurds". Now this one. maybe admin should begin take some action. if you see a thread begin to turn into a fucking train wreck like this, maybe you could post a generalized comment discouraging the topic. or maybe you're to busy getting drawn into the"my team rocks, your team sucks" bullshit. i.e.... That has to be the worst taunt I've ever read, Desert Dog. The Eagles play the Cowboys twice a year. And they just lost both times this season. Watched any sports lately? posted by rcade at 9:58 AM CST on December 15 p.s. so in the past 7 years its the eagles 14 and the cowboys 2?your right, your taunt was better. now can we talk some sports, or due i have to biotch slap some of you crackers back to reality?(see,racism is never funny when it is directed towards you). Get it?
posted by RZA at 06:49 PM on December 15, 2005
GROUP HUG! Who has the lyrics to Kumbyah?
posted by irunfromclones at 06:59 PM on December 15, 2005
"I don't scramble as much because I have an enormous hernia and running makes my balls ache. Seriously, it's like offering them to a room full of hippies as hacky sacks. And they're all wearing steel toes." "... and they won't bathe and they smell like patchouli oil and they won't shut up about the fucking Grateful Dead ..."
posted by wfrazerjr at 07:02 PM on December 15, 2005
...maybe that says alot about some of the members here. Or just maybe, you too are jumping to conclusions and implying others must be racists if they have a different view from yours.
posted by STLCardinalfan at 07:20 PM on December 15, 2005
Who the hell joined spofi to have race related arguments every other damn day? Don't want it? Don't go there. Seems simple to me. maybe admin should begin take some action. if you see a thread begin to turn into a fucking train wreck like this, maybe you could post a generalized comment discouraging the topic. So, let me get this straight: you're suggesting that admin monitor and post a "nuh uh" whenever the subject turns to race. Is that it? Or is it only certain remarks about race that would be verboten? Or a certain quantity?
posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:39 PM on December 15, 2005
u can't make a man smarter by beating him. Apparently you have not heard of the military's method of "wall to wall counseling" with "dimensional lumber". It is a quite effective method of "attitude adjustment"!
posted by Tazz1 at 07:55 PM on December 15, 2005
lil brown bat, I agree totally. That was my exact point on another thread, however, i want to talk sports, hence joining "sports" filter. And its not hard to see a race related off topic arguement brewing. Scroll up, its pretty easy to see where this thread derailed. Please note the huge picture of a large train that has left the tracks. If he has the where withal to post that pic, surely admin can suggest sticking to the topic(not to anyone specific) just in general to hopefully discourage meaningless non-sports related bs. I've seen it done a few times to less offensive posts. I've also seen where admin asked that personal attacks please stop and try to stay on topic.
posted by RZA at 11:37 PM on December 15, 2005
STLcardinalfan, Allow me to simplify this for you. Its my opinion that a few white guys that tie a black guy to a truck bumper, then drag him to his death are racist. What do you think? Its also my opinion that a person who says some black people bring racism on themselves is most likely a racist. Of course they bring it on themselves, how dare they be black right?
posted by RZA at 11:44 PM on December 15, 2005
RZA, would u consider yourself a racist person?
posted by the don at 12:53 AM on December 16, 2005
I am going to vehemently disagree with Morgan Freeman and everyone else who thinks that bringing up race contributes to our racism problems. The reason why we have a black history month is because in fact black history has not been incorporated into American history in any real way. It is the same reason that they have black literature classes. The chances of you reading some great American writers that are black in an American Literature class are not so good. Talking about racism and race doesn't cause the problem, it just reveals the problem. For instance, several people have discussed that they think racial problems aren't that big of a deal in this country. I disagree. If you don't talk about it, how are you going to discover where the differences lie. So, for someone who thinks that the racism isn't huge, maybe we could discuss the disparities in employment, education, housing, and health care that differ dramatically by race. Then, maybe they can explain to me why, in light of those differences, race is not a big deal anymore.
posted by bperk at 10:39 AM on December 16, 2005
I am going to vehemently disagree with Morgan Freeman and everyone else who thinks that bringing up race contributes to our racism problems. Disagree all you want, but that's not what Morgan Freeman said.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:47 AM on December 16, 2005
lil brown bat, I agree totally. That was my exact point on another thread, however, i want to talk sports, hence joining "sports" filter. Well, here's the problem: there are legitimate sports topics that are also inextricably limited to issues of racism, or sexism, or what have you. Any discussion of Title IX, for example, is both about sports and about gender discrimination. Also, I have yet to see anyone who tries to shout down discussions of race, who complains loudly that there's too much talk about it, actually engage in any honest discussion (as opposed to name-calling) about it. Look, no one likes to deal with smelly garbage, but racism and its consequent problems are our smelly garbage, and sometimes it rears its ugly head in sports. And when I hear people who haven't engaged in honest discussion on racism whining that there's too much talk about it, I'm reminded of a lazy teenager who whines about all the work that he has to do, but who hasn't actually carried a single sack of smelly garbage to the curb. No fair whining until you've done the work.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:52 AM on December 16, 2005
bperk: I am going to vehemently disagree with Morgan Freeman and everyone else who thinks that bringing up race contributes to our racism problems. lbb: Disagree all you want, but that's not what Morgan Freeman said. From the article: Freeman notes there is no "white history month," and says the only way to get rid of racism is to "stop talking about it." I don't see how I mischaracterized what Freeman said at all.
posted by bperk at 11:49 AM on December 16, 2005
Its my opinion that a few white guys that tie a black guy to a truck bumper, then drag him to his death are racist. What do you think? Question not worthy of an answer. Its also my opinion that a person who says some black people bring racism on themselves is most likely a racist. Ridiculous conclusion. Of course they bring it on themselves, how dare they be black right? Sounds like you feel there's something inherently wrong with being black? And thanks for simplifying things for me.
posted by STLCardinalfan at 11:49 AM on December 16, 2005
What I dont understand is why it is okay for RZA to call white people crackers, but if a white person made a racial slur to him it is unacceptable. bperk, what do u mean black history hasnt been incorporated? What in American history do they point out as "white people's history", so to speak? It is AMERICAN HISTORY and everything that happened is taught.
posted by the don at 12:42 PM on December 16, 2005
the don: it isn't okay, but his point was to annoy you as some of the more subtly ignorant comments you thought were innocuous bothered him. you're wrong about american history: it's written by the winners in every nation and this one is no exception. STL: what exactly to minorities do to keep racism alive? everyone's taking sides on this statement, but no one's explaining what they mean by it. i like LBB's analogy about the garbage. it works. i didn't post this link to stoke any race-riots around here. i just thought "good for mcnabb" that he stuck up for himself. my general opinion about race is that it doesn't matter to you and you don't think it should matter to anyone else if you've never had it affect you firsthand. that's not to say you can't have an opinion about it, but i think with an issue as personal (literally meaning related to an individual's personal identity), you've got to try and hear out everyone without yelling over them. you'd think someone like mcabb who's accomplished so much as an athlete might be beyond being labeled a successful "black" man and could just be a successful man. i think the fact that we're not there yet means we HAVE TO keep talking about it. ignoring it at this point would be sweeping the elephant in the room under the rug. i will say this. compared to some of the race problems in european sports, we're way ahead of the game.
posted by ninjavshippo at 02:01 PM on December 16, 2005
bperk, what do u mean black history hasnt been incorporated? What in American history do they point out as "white people's history", so to speak? It is AMERICAN HISTORY and everything that happened is taught. Everything that happened could not, and is not, taught. What is taught is an edited interpretation of American history that is not without bias. Do you think that if a textbook or a course is not specified as white, then it could not have any slant that may exclude Native Americans, blacks, and other minorities? Do you think that if a Native American or African American was writing the history book, it would be the same?
posted by bperk at 02:13 PM on December 16, 2005
Don, first of all, you left out the comment i made after the crackers slur. I indicated that i said that on purpose so some of our people here can see that other people here think that racial jokes are indeed not funny. You actually proved my point about it. Thanks. lilbrownbat, allow me to direct you to the thread "why does every white kid get compared to larry bird". Read that then you can decide for yourself if i have engaged in any honest discussion about race, culture or what have you. You might also find out why i have came to be alittle overwhelmed by the topic. Also please dont mistake addressing something or speaking my opinion for whining. And you would also be wise not to compare a grown man to a teenager. That sort of indirect "name calling" might be taken persoanlly by the person you are directly addressing, then we go from maturely disagreeing to an imature, "i know you are but what am i" format thats just foolish and teenage like itself. And if you're going to comment again, please refer to that thread, then make a judgment call about wether or not i have particapted in enough honest discussion about the topic. Although you may not agree with me, you will see that there has been more than enough discussion. STLC, you make this comment: Sounds like you feel there's something inherently wrong with being black? Now being mixed Black/Italian, why would i think there is something inherently wrong with being what i am? I think we have another example of someone stating their opinion in an indirect way because they're just flat out afraid to say how they themselves feel about something. But i understand why you would be intimidated STLC. I know you have to keep the illusion of being politically correct going. I've actually seen your type on another thread. I'll give you a hint, if there are somethings you dont like about african americans, just say it. You'll get more respect that way vs. dancing around it like a politician.
posted by RZA at 02:32 PM on December 16, 2005
lilbrownbat, allow me to direct you to the thread "why does every white kid get compared to larry bird". Read that then you can decide for yourself if i have engaged in any honest discussion about race, culture or what have you. You might also find out why i have came to be alittle overwhelmed by the topic. Also please dont mistake addressing something or speaking my opinion for whining. And you would also be wise not to compare a grown man to a teenager. That sort of indirect "name calling" might be taken persoanlly by the person you are directly addressing, then we go from maturely disagreeing to an imature, "i know you are but what am i" format thats just foolish and teenage like itself. And if you're going to comment again, please refer to that thread, then make a judgment call about wether or not i have particapted in enough honest discussion about the topic. Although you may not agree with me, you will see that there has been more than enough discussion. You mean that thread where you got into a massive pissing contest about (among other things) run-on sentences, was "honest discussion about race, culture, or what have you"? Well, whatever. But I'm referring to this thread, RZA. And no, I do not see that there has been "more than enough discussion". No one's forced to participate in it, no one's forced to look at it. But calling the average contribution on the subject "enough discussion" is horsefeathers. I've seen a lot of "discussion" on SpoFi about issues regarding race, and I've seen a lot of participants whose first remark is, "Shut up about it!" Those are the "teenagers" I'm talking about; if you don't feel the shoe fits, then don't wear it! But if it didn't strike a nerve, and you feel that you have discussed it enough, then why try to shut down the discussion of others? Just decline, stay away, go start a thread about something else. But don't try to tell other people that they should shut up because the subject's been discussed enough.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 04:09 PM on December 16, 2005
Freeman notes there is no "white history month," and says the only way to get rid of racism is to "stop talking about it." I have to totally agree with Freeman on this. I am white and my children are white and they did not know there was a difference in being black until someone at school pointed out black history month. Why can't we just teach about historical people the same black or white and not point out color. My children have cousins who are black and to them they are just cousins. That is how I want generations in the future to view things. We are all just people. History is history but mistakes are still being made if differences are still being pointed out. An another thing - an ass is an ass no matter what color. (excuse my language)
posted by skydivemom at 05:48 PM on December 16, 2005
But i understand why you would be intimidated STLC. I know you have to keep the illusion of being politically correct going. I'm neither intimidated or suffering any illusions. This started when I agreed with statements by Morgan Freeman. I still do. While respecting your right to disagree, I'm obviously a racist for disagreeing with you. And please point to my "type" on another thread and how you feel it incriminates me. Frankly, I think your problem is: White people are white. Therefore, they are racists. Am I pretty close?
posted by STLCardinalfan at 06:29 PM on December 16, 2005
You know something brownbat, i figured you for someone that was reasonable, you're proving otheriwse by mentioning the least important part of that thread. Why would you not mention the other 8 posts i had on the topic of race, culture and the like? What the hell is wrong with some of you veterans here? Did that make you feel better? Do you have to constantly try to prove yourself cool, witty or otherwise right all the damn time? I was certain you were a little more honest than you're making yourself out to be. I certainly didnt expect you to agree with the things in the other thread, however i did expect you to be honest and agree that myself along with a few others addressed the topic of race and culture indepth. I dont think i said, "shut up". Yet another misleading statement. All i said was lets stick to the topic and please stop trying to make things about race. This guy was probably a fan of a different team. He didnt say Mcnabb is no good because he was black. He didnt say mcnabb was overrated, as rush limbaugh* indicated. And then you generalize everything by saying: Rush Limbaugh inadvertently in bed with the NAACP. I'm lovin' it. posted by lil_brown_bat at 7:21 PM CST on December 14 The entire NAACP? Come on man. You bring the enitre group into it. You know what you're right. You're the man. Fire away. If you have an opinion, does that mean where ever you work holds the same opinion aswell? If you think racism needs to be discussed, then discuss it man. I would like to see how you can help with some of the negative things african americans still face. I still cant beleive you mention having "honest" discussion, and then say all i talked about on the other thread was run on sentences. Talk about a lazy teenager whining.
posted by RZA at 07:20 PM on December 16, 2005
STLC, im 50% white. So your question is, do i have a problem with 50% of myself. The answer is no, i dont. You're seeing things that are not there. His comment was "some"... You chose to pounce on his statement. People who react as you did, not he, are the problem. Your reference to the KKK speaks volumes about your tolerance for other thoughts and perspectives especially when they disagree with yours. Do you support the KKK? Do you have a problem with people that are against the KKK. Has the KKK ever been guilty of killing any of your relatives? Do you have the same perspective that they have? And most importantly, do you feel that "some" african americans, mexicans, native americans, asian americans bring racism upon themselves?
posted by RZA at 07:35 PM on December 16, 2005
You know what you're right. You're the man. Sometimes, I even amaze myself.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:44 PM on December 16, 2005
Do you support the KKK? I just can't imagine how you ask this question based on my post. Go back and read the context, where it was directed and why.
posted by STLCardinalfan at 07:45 PM on December 16, 2005
RZA: brownbat, i figured you for someone that was reasonable Where in the happy hell did you ever come across something that supported this conclusion? The one thing I love abour Our L B B is she's as unreasonable as I am.
posted by yerfatma at 09:13 PM on December 16, 2005
It took me a while, but I finally figured out that yerfatma is really my twin, separated at birth.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:41 PM on December 16, 2005
Hmm, I did not know you were female LBB. In that case, you're the woman! Now I feel like a big bully. Discussing certain topics with you both makes me feel like i'm being jumped into a gang. You both have had me ready to break this keyboard and monitor a few times. I havn't been this upset with a mechanical device since my Beyonce blow up doll went on the fritz.
posted by RZA at 01:08 AM on December 17, 2005
bperk, all i can say is that when i was in history classes, we learned about all significant American events, regardless of race.
posted by the don at 02:10 AM on December 17, 2005
OK again I'm ready to get tossed under the bus for this one. As important an issue as race is, I think in this country it obscures another issue. Class and economic standing is what's really important in this country. Have black people got a raw deal? Sure they have, but the poor white kid in rural Kentucky or Indiana or urban Chicago or Detroit have got a raw deal that's just as bad. I really wish people would see that race is an issue that the people in power use to divide us, then reap the rewards that America can offer while we're all fighting amungst ourselves. Black people the enemy isn't white people per say and white people the enemy isn't black people. If you want to be pissed at someone be pissed at corporate executives that lay off workers while taking a pay raise. Be pissed at your government for reforming bankruptcy laws for the average person, but gives corporate wellfare to large multinational companies that are in the process of sending YOUR job overseas. It's all about money in this country and everyone except the people at the top are getting screwed.
posted by Fade222 at 02:43 AM on December 17, 2005
You make a valid point about rich vs. poor. However thats not always the case. For example, I bet Michael Jordan doesnt catch alot of racism directed his way, but look at how Allen Iverson, ron artest and terrell owens are though of as bad seeds, trouble makers and such. Granted they have some attitude problems, but i dont think their issues would be discussed as much if they were white. Here is a great example i heard someone mention. NBA teams are majority black, NHL teams are majoirty white. For years fighting has been considered a part of the game in the NHL. You miss 5 minutes of the game if you fight. If there is a fight in the NBA, you get suspended for atleast a few games and you get fined heavily. I use these 2 sports because they are at the oppisite ends of the spectrum when it comes to race disparity. Another example, Ron artest is assulted during a game, he doesnt know if more cups of beer are coming at him, so in the confussion he thinks he sees who did it, he goes into the stands to defend himself (at that time he had just been shoved in the face by wallaceand he walked away). He gets suspended for a year. Ty domi gets assulted by a fan who accidently falls into the penalty box while leaning on the glass. Was the fan irate and out of control, sure he was. Did he kick the glass out and throw a full plastic cup of beer on ty? no he didnt. ty domi hits him with a few jabs. Nothing came of it at all. Ty was defending himself. Fans run onto the court in detroit, jermaine o'neil defends himself( the same way ty did) he gets criminal charges pressed, fined and suspended from work. Why? explain it? Is fighting ok in a majority white sport because they grow up with violence? No, young black men are suppose to be brought up in a violent culture right? isnt that the stereotype? W hy can 2 white men kick the shit out of eachother on national TV in a professional sport. On some of the same networks that air basketball games. And its ok. TO fights with a former teamate and he should be hung. Jermaine O'Neil does the same exact thing as domi, one gets fined,suspended, charges, the other gets nada. Last but not least i offer these threads. Please note the comments on the thread about the fan running onto the field and taking the ball from bret farve. Notice the majority of the comments(not all) are similar. They all thought that farve or another player should have, blasted,knock down,mame,otherwise bitch slap the idiot that ran onto the field. but in contridiction, observe how harsh the majority of the people here were towards artest and O'neil. Keep in mind, farve never got touched at all with anything. the guy that came at farve wasnt menacing or threatening in anyway. The guys that came on the court in detroit had fists up ready to go. This is what im referring to. some of us are being racists when we dont even know it. Racism is alive and well in america. and its alive and well right here on spofi. I'll list the thread names incase the links dont work. detroit brawl thread http://www.sportsfilter.com/comments.cfm/3819 additional thread about artest(one wasnt enough like TO threads) http://www.sportsfilter.com/comments.cfm/3830 Farve thread http://www.sportsfilter.com/comments.cfm/5398 Please dont attack me with BS unless you look at the difference in the threads.
posted by RZA at 07:15 AM on December 17, 2005
Sorry no links, just copy/paste url if interestd.
posted by RZA at 07:16 AM on December 17, 2005
Fade222: I think in this country it obscures another issue. Class and economic standing is what's really important in this country. Thank you. Racism is a terrible problem, but some people use it to keep poor folks from coming together and asking for a fair shake. It seems we haven't come all that far from Tom Joad and The Grapes of Wrath. RZA: havn't been this upset with a mechanical device since my Beyonce blow up doll went on the fritz. Two words: extended warranty. Sometimes it does make sense.
posted by yerfatma at 07:46 AM on December 17, 2005
Extended warranty, good point. However they said i voided the warranty when i tied its legs around its neck, and repeatedly stuck my fingers in the dolls ears.(its a fettish thing you wouldnt understand). Ohwell, back to the body pillow with the bowl of jello duct taped to it.
posted by RZA at 08:00 AM on December 17, 2005
What the hell happened to the GROUP HUG!? Didn't MJ catch hell for not being basic black? Or was that wearing basic black?
posted by irunfromclones at 01:35 AM on December 18, 2005
You both have had me ready to break this keyboard and monitor a few times. May I suggest anger management counseling? Seriously. Wanting to bust things up, especially your own things, because other people disagree with you is not healthy. It's healthier than wanting to bust other people up, but it's still not a good sign.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:06 PM on December 18, 2005
Uhhh, it was a setup for the blowup doll one liner. You know, to create a liter side of all of the disagreements. I think yerfatma gathered as much, hence the extened warranty reply. Besides, does it actually appear like i need some bullshit anger f*@#ing managment classes got damn it. Im gonna put my fist thru the wall just on GP for that bullshit comment. GRRRRRR
posted by RZA at 09:25 PM on December 18, 2005
Rush Limbaugh inadvertently in bed with the NAACP. I'm lovin' it. (They're both wrong, of course, but it's still funny as hell)