December 02, 2005

What about Walt "Clyde" Frazier?

posted by HATER 187 at 12:53 PM on December 02, 2005

Ernie DeGrigorio?

posted by yerfatma at 01:03 PM on December 02, 2005

How about Pistol Pete Maravich and Larry Bird

posted by SidinGP at 01:40 PM on December 02, 2005

How about Pistol Pete Maravich and Larry Bird Bird - not a point guard. If he was, then Jordan was the best point guard ever.

posted by Bill Lumbergh at 02:18 PM on December 02, 2005

I think the list was good. I just wonder how when you list PGs, you neglect to mention that Stockton is the all-time leader in assists? Not saying he should move up the list or anything but it should be mentioned, don't you think?

posted by JJfromPAinMI at 02:47 PM on December 02, 2005

Dennis Johnson gets no respect.

posted by justgary at 03:05 PM on December 02, 2005

does anyone else hate SI's layout for their top 10 lists does anyone else hate SI 's layout for their top 10 lists?

posted by drjimmy11 at 03:53 PM on December 02, 2005

I have to agree, Nash is my man too... Nash in at 5, and Cheeks is history...plus I hardly saw him play

posted by sfts2 at 04:05 PM on December 02, 2005

Weedy, you really think Kidd is still better than Nash? I mean, even with his main go-to guy out, he's still putting up almost 19 & 11 a night. With Carter & Jefferson on the floor, Kidd should be putting up those kind of numbers, too. Plus Kidd's knees have about had it. Defensively, Kidd might still be stronger, but I'd have to say the torch has been passed....

posted by cybermac at 04:12 PM on December 02, 2005

"Clyde" Frazier was absolutely fantastic and vastly underrated (and now almost forgotten). "Rockin' Steady" is one of the best basketball books EVER!!

posted by dyams at 04:40 PM on December 02, 2005

Ernie DeGrigorio? Living close to Buffalo my entire life, I also love Ernie D. The Braves used to be a fun, entertaining team with Ernie D., Bob McAdoo, and Adrian Dantley. Even though he wouldn't make the top 10, thanks for mentioning him, yerfatma.

posted by dyams at 04:59 PM on December 02, 2005

You've got to remember, Top 10 Point Guards of ALL-TIME. There's no way Tony Parker is anywhere close. Jason Kidd has to win a title before he is considered. SFTS2 is right about Stockton being the best, he is definitely, and he would be number 1 if he had won a title. However you left out the Big "O". Triple double average in a season needs to be considered. Nash is good, right now. Three decent seasons means nothing. Stockton had 19, and he was only #5? In 10 years Nash might break the list, only if his team wins one.

posted by Snikastyle at 05:58 PM on December 02, 2005

Umm, where's Tony Parker? I call BS. What the hell are you smoking? He hasn't been around that long and is only the third best player on his team. Magic Johnson is hands down the best point guard ever, and if for no better reason, has anyone ever played with him on NBA Live?

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 06:28 PM on December 02, 2005

If DJ stays with the Suns and has only the 79 Sonic ring to his name, would his career be viewed as that much better than other scoring PGs like Tim Hardaway, Kevin Johnson, Gary Payton, Derek Harper, Mark Price, Terry Porter, Fat Lever, Kenny Anderson, Mookie Blaylock or Rod Strickland? Isn't naming him a "Top Ten PG" akin to naming Robert Horry a "Top Ten SF"? How is DJ any better than Sleepy Floyd or "Sugar Ray" Richardson?

posted by lilnemo at 06:50 PM on December 02, 2005

I understand championships are a good way to measure someone's success, however, to say the ONLY reason someone wasn't the best ever at their position is because THEY only won one championship is petty. That's like saying Dan Marino was "pretty" good but HE never won a superbowl. For crying out loud! Trent Dilfer won a frickin' superbowl! I guess he was better than Marino! I remember watching Jordan before they built a team around him, hadn't won any championships yet, but he was the best player in the NBA. Best Point Guard? I'll take Oscar anytime. An Oscar led Bucks team versus a Magic led Laker team, I'll take the Lakers. They were a better team but Oscar would have been the best player on the floor. No question.

posted by tselson at 10:30 PM on December 02, 2005

Well, I'm just talking about watching them play - I like Parker's game, and I like Nash's game, maybe Billups but some of these other guys mentioned don't play point, Iverson may be the 1, but he's not a point guard. IMHO.

posted by sfts2 at 11:32 PM on December 02, 2005

What's wrong with you people? I can name 15 point guards right now who are or were better than Tony Parker. This is my list: 10. Oscar Robertson 9. Mark Price 8. Kevin Johnson 7. Steve Nash 6. Tim Hardaway 5. Gary Payton(nobody played better D at point) 4. Dwayne Wade(fearless and still gets 6-10 dimes) 3. Isiah Thomas 2. John Stockton 1. Majic Johnson Stockton would be 1, but he only had Malone to feed.

posted by il trooper at 12:29 AM on December 03, 2005

I like Dwade but it's way too soon to put him on the greatest list, let alone at #4.

posted by willthrill72 at 01:03 AM on December 03, 2005

And seriously, how is Stockton not number one? I understand that he never won a championship, but for a list like this, the value of winning has to be at least slightly minimized. If you're building the perfect team, who you going to take at the point? I say slot Stockton in there and throw Magic somewhere else.

posted by panoptican at 01:20 AM on December 03, 2005

And that should be best year, no plural. Go me. Four comments in a row.

posted by panoptican at 01:34 AM on December 03, 2005

I think if you're "building the perfect team" stockton doesnt make it on(as number 1)His height would keep him from the team and his defense). Lets say Magic was the point for the "opposing best team". Stockton couldnt D magic up. Now of course, stockton would be number 1 obviously if this list was "who was the best asst man period". However he could be taken advantage of by an opposing "super team" defensively. that is why you must consider the point gaurds "all around game", not just how many assts he got after playing till he was 73. Thats why i wouldnt take Iverson at this point, because he would be a defensive liability if say the big "O" was the opposing point gaurd. that said, Magic is the obvious choice here, A. If he stayed healthy he would have the most assts ever. B.Remember when he was in shape that either of his teamates could go for 30 in a playoff game. C. When you can be a "player/coach" on a floor with Jabar/Scott/worthy all getting 20 points at the same time you get 20 points and 20 assts and 9 boards, there is no greater accomplishment. P.S. why is scott skyles not getting honorable mention. he still holds the record for most assts in 1 game(something like 25?)

posted by RZA at 03:34 AM on December 03, 2005

RZA - 700 more steals than ANYONE EVER. Pretty good defense I think.

posted by sfts2 at 06:22 AM on December 03, 2005

sfts2 some might consider overwhelming physical superiority and athleticism to be a component of a "greatest of all time debate". That's not a knock on Stockton, just a nod to Magic.

posted by Fade222 at 07:29 AM on December 03, 2005

Last time I looked Parker has won more championships than any of the ten PG's listed combined. For clairification's sake, you mean dusted's list, right? Because The Cooz is on SI's list and I'm fairly certain by himself he puts the field ahead of Parker in rings.

posted by yerfatma at 09:34 AM on December 03, 2005

Ok, lets get this steals thing straight. Stockton,Iverson all the great steals leaders leave the man they are gaurding and rip someone that a team member is gaurding. Thats why you never have a league steals leader on the all defensive team for the year. Look back and tell me how many times stockton was on the "all defensive team"!And tell me how many times you remember stockton ripping the man he was gaurding?He didnt get his steals the same way say gary payton did. Iverson has been in the top 5 in steals basically his entire career. how many times has he made the all defensive 1st team? Looking at stocktons numbers, you can tell he has such high numbers due to the fact that he played until he was 57. SFTS2, think back to how he got his assts. pick and roll period. Play making? How many assts do you think stockton had when the pick and roll was shut down? Why do you think the jazz never won a championship? The good teams knew what they had to stop. Thats why the jazz always lost in the big series.Stop the pick and roll and you stop their entire offense. The dish off person in a pick and roll play is going to have high asst anyway. I think stockton was good, but not better than magic or oscar. Put stockton in john paxsons place and you have the same player, and his numbers whould be very similar to paxsons in a triangle offense. Put magic in the backcourt with MJ and he gets his same numbers. Why? Because he was better than stockton. And the shoutout to skyles was sarcasm. stockton is getting his recognition because of his numbers,why not give a nod to the person who has the most assts in one game? Again, if stockton was in the triangle at chicago and paxson was on the jazz, we'd be talking about paxson right now.

posted by RZA at 03:08 PM on December 03, 2005

Just to clarify: my list wasn't a ten-best of all time, it was ten current players that are arguably better than Tony Parker.

posted by dusted at 06:44 PM on December 03, 2005

for clarification yeah I was referring to dusty's list of current PG's who he thinks are better than Parker. I'd say Magic was the greatest of all time. Stockton was just too small to be a good defender. Granted He was a great flopper and flung his elbows around when fighting through screens. Also I think you could throw in a number of point guards on the Jazz's team and they would have had the same success as Stockton B/C Malone, although I've never liked him, could knock down the jumper and was excellent at rolling towards the basket. Good comment about Silas- He was one of the best guards the Spurs ever had. I agree that it's too early to talk about parker being even in the top 20 point guards of all time but he's not as average as dusty thinks (having 10+ current pg's who he thinks are better)

posted by Red at 09:45 PM on December 03, 2005

Whoa, wait a minute, i tossed Iverson in there via sarcasm based on the statement "nash poured in 17+ a game while getting 10 assts per". So i said, if thats the case then iverson would be number 1 based on getting 8.2 assts per while pouring in 34 ppg.(his numbers this season so far) now as far as defense goes, i cant remember the last time a guy made all D 1st team based on leading the league in steals. the last guy that probably made it via steals is probably payton or pippen(im not sure).Who were both great "allround" defenders. Im not really that big on averages when it comes to the 1 big game theory(say "dream team vs. dream team"). I'm just not sure who stockten would gaurd if you say the opposing backcourt was MJ and magic. On that same note, if nash and stockton were in the same backcourt and they were matched up against magic and MJ, they would both get posted up all night long. I will withdraw the comment about stockton only having alot of steals due to his tenure and give him his due "props" when it comes to ripping his opponets. Also if i seemed as though i was calling stockton "poor" i didnt quite mean it that way. I just dont think he could gaurd a "all time" great backcourt player. I also feel the same way about iverson. Although if iverson flopped like stockton or used his elbows like stockton, he would probably be called a dirty player. No 1 moved into an opposing teams cutter(coming off a screen)and then flopped like he got hit by a septa bus like john stockton. then when he was told to stop by the officials he would just stick his elbows out there. As far as the triangle goes,i believe it adds more options than a straight "give and go" or a pick and roll. And i just dont think that stockton would have gotten his numbers if you put him in the backcourt with MJ or iverson(at the 2). I dont think anyone(except a true jazz fan) can name a true 2 gaurd that stockton played with for more than 2 yrs str8. I will say that no player(except maybe magic) had a better bounce pass in traffic than stockton.

posted by RZA at 04:43 AM on December 04, 2005

hey il trooper add Allen Iverson to your list he is one of the best point guards in the NBA right now

posted by Dav at 07:43 AM on December 04, 2005

Stockton made the All-Defensive second team four or five times. He was at least "good" at defense. Saying he'd get posted by Magic or MJ is like saying nothing at all. Everyone got posted by those two.

posted by dusted at 11:41 AM on December 04, 2005

Saying he'd get posted by Magic or MJ is like saying nothing at all. Everyone got posted by those two. Thats the exact point im making. if you're going to say someone should be "number 1 all time" at their position, you shouldnt beable to say that they would get posted all night long.MJ would have less success thru an entire 48 minutes trying to post magic vs. trying to post stockton. Therefore if its an "advancement very far down a very pointless line of thought". Why would someone come behind me and reiterate my point without meaning to. There are 2 ends of a basketball court. You cannot "dominate" at 1 end and be "ok" at the other and be considered the greatest at a position that requires both. Was stockton good, yes. Was he better than most , yes. Would he be in the starting lineup of what is considered the "greatest dream team of all time". No. Would he get a spot on the bench of that team? maybe. And we can agree to disagree SFTS2,without taking personal shots, even if your positon on stockton being the best PG ever is as ridiculous as saying steve largeant* was the best wide receiver ever. Sure he may have had a record or 2, but he wouldnt be your first pick for a wide receiver. Or would he?

posted by RZA at 09:30 PM on December 04, 2005

RZA, IF you had read any of my posts, you would know that I already conceded that Magic was a better player than Stockton AND that I did not characterize my list as being the best of 'all-time' I think that is a stupid and pointless exercise, which is basically WHY I submitted an alternative list. I also have the feeling, that Magic played at a number of positions during his career, and while I have not found any career games played at each position stats, I still seem to remember that he played a fair bit of 2 and 3 as well as 4 and 5 during his career. I could well be wrong on this. My feeling that Magic was a freak of nature and not a prototypical point guard and (I think) played a number of positions besides the 1 was basically the only reason that Stockton was above him. Since it was MY list, I'll put him where I please. :-) Get you own damn list if you don't like it. Secondly, how you characterize the all-time steals leader as being 'ok' on the defensive end of the floor is a mystery to me, albeit, not a very interesting one. How you can say that someone who holds the opinion that a consensus top five all-time is the best 'that I've ever seen' including Magic is 'ridiculous' is a mystery as well. Since IN MY OPINION, a point guard is primarily a playmaker, who contributes to the success of his team by making OTHERS better (more and better high percentage looks) the most important number is assists, thus I value this highly. I also value consistency and the length time that the player played at a VERY HIGH level as being quite important IN MY OPINION. Stockton missed like 20 games throughout his 19 year career. This is pretty impressive to me. Magic was surrounded by all-stars, including the most dominating player of all time. Stockton had Malone and no-one else and made the playoffs fairly consistently if memory serves. I am sure that Stockton played against Magic a fair amount, so we should be able to see if he was able to guard him. As far as my 'pointless line of thought' comment goes, an intoductory class in logic will show the fallacy of employing statements similar to 'he was better because he was better' that you tried. You cannot backup your opinion by restating it. Best reciever all-time - stupid question, best I've ever seen Jerry Rice, again, to some extent due to the length of his career at a very high level. BTW, yerfatma, Stockton was a GREAT defender, not a 'good' one, and your point is dead on.

posted by sfts2 at 09:56 AM on December 05, 2005

SFTS2, its ok man. If you would allow me to enter your world for minute. I would say that the comic book hero "flash" would be the best point guard cause he was fast. stick that in your "logic and reason" 101 class and file it. Your previous comment almost reminds me of that guy in the bar scene from good will hunting. it almost sounds as if you're mad at me because magic was better than your boy. Dont take it so personal. I mean, the topic was the best all time pg.Not the best 'play maker in your opinion only" pg. You argue your point as if stockton is your uncle or something. However, you admit that you agree with me saying magic is better in a 4 paragraph argument. And dont bother trying to find to many stats in ref to stockton guarding magic, if 'memory serves" he had to guard Byron scott and i think we both know why. Please tell me, why you categorize a question as "stupid" and then answer it? Quit while your(IN YOUR OWN WORLD)ahead. i dont think i'll respond anymore, 1 of us has to step up and stop this constant and egregious state of "ramble".

posted by RZA at 06:21 PM on December 05, 2005

"You are Peter and upon your rock distribution I will build My game." Was that in Deuteronomy or Psalms?

posted by lilnemo at 06:57 PM on December 05, 2005

Here are the comparable statistics: Stockton Magic PPG 13.1 19.5 APG 10.5 11.2 RPG 2.7 7.2 SPG 2.2 1.9 BPG 0.2 0.4 FG% .515 .520 FT% .826 .848 TOPG 2.82 3.87 Magic won 5 titles, Stockton 0. Magic was Finals MVP 3 of those times. Magic was MVP for 3 years, Stockton 0. Magic won all NBA First Team 9 times in a row, only played 13 seasons. Stockton was on it 2 times out of 19 seasons. Magic was a 12-time All-Star (MVP 2 times), Stockton was a 10-time All-Star (co-MVP once). These numbers should stop the argument of who was the better player. Magic wins every category except steals per game - which was close, and TO per game - which actually was kind of high. Magic was definately on a better team, but that just means that there should've been more opportunities for Stockton than Magic. The only relevant arguement is that Magic wasn't JUST a PG. He was a Point Guard, but he was able to do other things as well. As far as I am concerned Magic is the best of all time. Stockton and Big "O" can battle it out for second.

posted by Snikastyle at 05:11 PM on December 06, 2005

I don't think anyone was arguing Stockton was better than Magic. Just that he belongs on the same list. Please refer to half of the posts on this thread by sfts2 in reference to "nobody was arguing that stockton was better than magic". Some people just find some1 they dont like and just want to argue nothing.Here, read below. My feeling that Magic was a freak of nature and not a prototypical point guard and (I think) played a number of positions besides the 1 was basically the only reason that Stockton was above him. Since it was MY list, I'll put him where I please. :-) Get you own damn list if you don't like it. I think the "above him" reference confirms he/she thought he was better. Yerfatma, i actually wasnt addressing you in any of my comments, but since it now seems that "you wont let anyone near sfts2" i'll just refer you both to the stats provided to us by snikastyle. I think they speak volumes about how much better magic was, unless of course the numbers dont matter now and you were just trying to say that stockton was cuter than magic(insert "oh snap" graphic here). If you're done playing the role of "tough guy/girl sticking up for my little brother", feel free to review the stats again and not respond anymore. however since your first priority is to argue for people who say "get your own damn list" and with people you think should shut up, I wont respond anymore.I'll just give you the last word,i'm sure you have some wit filled comment you just cant wait to lay on us all. then 1 of your spofi buddys can say "way to go" "you showed that troll".Then i'll feel dumb and you'll feel better. p.s. im a sixers fan, i liked mo cheeks as a pointguard. you dont see me on here talking about mo was the best pg because he coaches now. i hated the lakers and all that showtime crap,but theres the truth,then theres everything else. dont worry, im sure stockton was #1 on the KKK's all time list of greatest players.(if that offers any consolation)

posted by RZA at 09:30 PM on December 06, 2005

Come on people,whats next? Will i have to explain myself again only to have the next member of the "click" try to argue the same damn point from a different angle? nemo, first an answer to a stupid question, and now a 4 paragraph response to someone that "isnt being taken seriously". how the hell do you know what im wondering? how serious can this topic be? All you did by posting on behalf of someone else, is affirm what i was saying about '1 of his/her spofi buddies coming along saying blah blah blah. I left the first part of his/her statement out on purpose. It was contradictory. "i concede magic is better but saying he's better in the manner of how this thread is worded is dumb. So i made my own list and put whoever i wanted on Top"! "get your own damn list"? I think the criteria in which this thread is based on is pointless and a stupid exercise.WTF? "Purer,cuter" sigh. Honestly what did you accomplish by posting on their behalf? My "KKK" reference was sarcasm, i was assuming that sftst2 was prejudice, it was the only thing i could think of based on his strong desire to argue that an inferior player was better and then when he suggested segregating the list because 'he says so". But now that you reference racism,your little image depicting 2 african american chidren 'bobbing their heads about" saying "oh snap" could be misconstrued as racism.

posted by RZA at 03:39 PM on December 07, 2005

I can't figure out what you guys are arguing about. It comes across like this: " I agreed, and you disagreed about whether I agreed to disagree before you disagreed to agree..."... Like this matters? Does it make sense to just say what you think and move on? FWIW, some years ago I heard Wilt Chamberlain say if he was building a team by drafting anyone in the current NBA (circa 1992?), he'd take Stockton first. Something about how he could bring out the best in anyone, complement any player. Magic was an incomparable talent, but for virtually his whole career he had an allstar on his right, an allstar on his left, and an all-NBA trailing, on most of his fast breaks. That's crudely a paraphrase of Oscar Robertson. In Magic's last few 'real' NBA games, he was quite unable to carry a mediocre (by Laker standards) squad to a respectable showing against the juggernaut Bulls. In what was billed as 'MJ vs MJ', he wasn't even the 2nd-best player; Pippen was. And Magic was still at the height of his powers. The torch had passed, retire or no.

posted by mike goodman at 09:50 AM on December 08, 2005