11/21/24
February 17, 2007
Dad intervenes during his son's wrestling match.: While the match is going, a father perceives his son to be in trouble and jumps in to help out. He launches his son's opponent about five feet into the air. Unbelievable.
Father Of The Year/ Asshole Of The Year beats up 11 year old. The piece of crap should be in jail right now. The father of the thrown kid should press criminal charges, especially since it is all on tape. If he doesn't the state should proceed with charges. I don't care if he says he was embarrased by his behavior or not, the jerkoff is a criminal. If there is any "shoulder injury" to his son it is due to the moron flinging his opponent while he was still in a wrestling hold with the mental midgets sons arm. I am sure that the child is much more embarrassed than his loser dad. Side note: fitting that the waste of a life is named Hoffman.... Mr. JerkHoffman Good thing for Mrs. JerkOffMan that Mr. Nasenbeny didn't pummell him, which it looks like he obviously could have done if he stooped to that level.
posted by urall cloolis at 11:17 PM on February 17, 2007
I don't care who gets offended: That is some funny shit. (On a side note, this is a weak link with little reporting. I expect everyone else to break out the torches and pitchforks.)
posted by forrestv at 11:28 PM on February 17, 2007
(On a side note, this is a weak link with little reporting. I expect everyone else to break out the torches and pitchforks.) My intent was to have the video link with the post title but I did not know if that was acceptable. I think the video captured the moment better than any supporting article (all of the one's I found were very pithy). Please excuse me if I effed up.
posted by danjel at 11:41 PM on February 17, 2007
It's cool danjel; no one is going to poke or torch you. I don't suppose there is any good reason for the father to do what he did, but from the evidence, I don't see how there could be any other option (my black humor aside) but to condemn the father. When it's that bad, how can there be any discussion on the post? It will mostly be negativity and newbies trying to score humor points.
posted by forrestv at 12:03 AM on February 18, 2007
Instead of throwing the other kid I would have discreetly slipped my son the steel folding chair and then distracted the ref while my kid proceded to bash the other kids brains in. He could then apply his finishing move and get the three count.
posted by HATER 187 at 01:16 AM on February 18, 2007
I coached youth sports for 25 seasons. It has always been my belief that the parents who yell the most know the least about the given sport. Part of this moron's sentence should include mandatory rules clinic attendance!
posted by FonGu at 05:52 AM on February 18, 2007
The steel chair trick would have been infinately funnier. You really need a raised ring to hide chairs, trash cans, etc underneath though. While we are on the subject, do the 11 year olds regularly get to use the steel cage or is that reserved for like the state finals or something?
posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 06:15 AM on February 18, 2007
I think the dad has seen 1 to many MMA matches. That is routinely how a UFC/Pride/MMA match is broken up when the REF thinks one of the competitors life is in danger. The capper would have been if the kid that got thrown would have played possum (like Ric Flair), got on his knees, begged for mercy, then punched the guy square in the nuts, then I would have felt a little better about the end of the video.
posted by Bishop at 07:31 AM on February 18, 2007
To twist someones arm behind their back should be illegal. The dad was justified. The other dad was an obvious pussy as shown when the mad dad approached the camera. I say kudos to him for protecting his kid, unlike the other dad who watched his kid get thrown and did nothing. Hell with societies rules, the mad dad must have a family policy that says "If my kid is hurting, I will protect him." The pussy dad should adopt such a policy.
posted by Godzilla82 at 07:33 AM on February 18, 2007
Not much of an excuse for what the father did, but ... Having covered serious youth wrestling for some time, I think the father thought his son's shoulder was going to be popped out of socket. When the other kid gets the reversal, the ref looks up and gives the scorer's table the sign for two points. As soon as the ref looks back, however, he immediately goes to stop the match, which makes me think there was something dangerous going on. There's another thing to consider here. Most of the kids and clubs see one another several times during a season, and may have wrestled in years past coming up. I have seen kids with a reputation for hurting other kids. If this is the case, I can understand the father's reaction. I'm not saying I condone it. The guy should never been allowed to coach again, as it puts him too close to the action. But if you thought your child was going to be seriously injured and you were sitting right there, can you be so sure you wouldn't have done the same thing? Finally, for those of you calling for the steel cages and the folding chairs, grow up. Amateur wrestling is a serious and disciplined sport, one that in my experience helps mold some of the best young men (and women) around. If you immediately equate it with the shooting star press and the flying suplex, you're showing your ignorance.
posted by wfrazerjr at 07:42 AM on February 18, 2007
Finally, for those of you calling for the steel cages and the folding chairs, grow up Easy Fraze, I think most are referring to the Dad vs. the sport. No matter the side of the fence you fall on here, the dad did act like the kid pulled a 357 out of his tights. Let's not forget that no matter what the WWE dad was thinking, his son got up and walked away. And that's a lot more than we would be saying had the kid that got tossed fell backwards and split his head open (which is far more rational thinking than the "he almost ripped his arm off" point of view).
posted by Bishop at 08:14 AM on February 18, 2007
Let's not forget that no matter what the WWE dad was thinking, his son got up and walked away. And that's a lot more than we would be saying had the kid that got tossed fell backwards and split his head open (which is far more rational thinking than the "he almost ripped his arm off" point of view). So you're telling me if you felt your child was about to suffer grievous harm right in front of you, you'd do nothing about it? I don't think you can, and that's why the "rational" part of your argument fails. It wasn't a rational act and I'm sure the guy feels terrible about it. It doesn't make it right, but it does make it a bit more understandable if you view it from that angle.
posted by wfrazerjr at 09:17 AM on February 18, 2007
A question: the article states that the kids shoulder was injured. Was that before or after the match? If it was before, why was he wrestling?
posted by lil'red at 10:23 AM on February 18, 2007
More information about the story can be found in my area paper, the Chicago Daily Herald. (Sorry, can't post links yet). Hoffman was said to be a part-time wrestling coach. According to the article, he apologized, was embarassed about his actions, and is no longer a coach for the team. As a coach, maybe he saw something more that was going on. According to the story, Hoffman was yelling at the other kids dad, "This is not how the sport is done. This is not how the sport is to be coached." Interestingly enough, the tournament was called "The St. Valentine's Day Massacre."
posted by bolo165 at 10:24 AM on February 18, 2007
The idea that the father was just trying to protect his son is a noble thought but that is no excuse for throwing a child across the room. Now to the question of "what if it was my son". I will say that you can't really awnser that unless you have gone through it,but i feel that if put in his place that i would react diffrently,but like all other posts here, that's just my opinion.
posted by jda at 10:26 AM on February 18, 2007
He should have controlled his emotion better than he did. Losing it the way he did is a clear indication he needs professional help.
posted by Toyster at 10:27 AM on February 18, 2007
Well, he freaked out - pretty embarrassingly. Definitely didn't come off as the mature adult there. Even if his kid is in the process of being hurt (which - you know - might actually happen if the kid wrestles) you can't just chuck an 11-year old across the arena. Leave it to the refs, officials and coaches.. You know - all the things you're not. But I'm personally glad he did though. That is pretty funny.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 10:39 AM on February 18, 2007
I was in no way putting down amateur wrestling. Its a very tough, thankless sport. My comments were meant as a joke and nothing more. No one got hurt so this story is just ridiculous. I didn't think I need to post disclaimers for throw away gag comments.
posted by HATER 187 at 10:56 AM on February 18, 2007
newbies trying to score humor points. or people trying to make people laugh... what a shame, the world needs less laughter i say. Not the most debatable link, but good to know about. Since watching it, I've seen lots of posts on the net sayin "if i was the dad with the camera, i'd have kicked his ass, etc..." Takes a man to, in a moment like this, know his son was fine, and a bigger man to not stoop to that idiot's level. He was able to realize in an instant, that the camera was payback enough. Kudos to that guy. Sadly, that angry father reminds me of too many hockey dads who live in my area. Any post that leads to more discussion about this kind of thing is great I think.
posted by 2 time mvp of the shittiest team ever at 11:14 AM on February 18, 2007
By the logic of some posts in this thread: A grown man is allowed to assault an 11 year old (maybe 70 lb) kid, so long as major injury does not occur? If the thrown kid was injured I am sure the incident would be viewed differently. Injury is part of the risk of playing sports. Maybe he should just keep his kid in a plastic bubble the rest of his life.
posted by urall cloolis at 11:21 AM on February 18, 2007
I think the father who intervened was way out of line. The ref had blown the whistle to end the match, so no one was in danger of getting hurt. But that is just my opinion. Fraz, as a mother I can understand your point. But you can't protect your kids all the time, no matter how you try. It was not like the boy was in the corner store during a robbery or riding his bike down the middle of the interstate. It was a supervised wrestling match and injuries are a part of sports. If the father didn't want his kid to get hurt, then he shouldn't be wrestling. (but believe me, I know how you feel, much to my son's chagrin)
posted by steelergirl at 11:24 AM on February 18, 2007
I don't know what's more disturbing, the fact that this guy did this or the fact that people would defend him. I wrestled for seven years, and I didn't see anything here that looked dangerous. To the person who said twisting someone's arm behind their back should be illegal -- you clearly have little or no knowledge of the sport. It looks to me like there is much misunderstanding about wrestling involved in the reporting of this incident. First, the kid wasn't "pinned" as the AP report states. He was in a controlled position, hence the two-point reversal awarded just before the incident. But the kid wasn't even on his back. I will say that from the video, it appears the kids were either way out of bounds or quickly approaching it. I thought that was why the ref was stopping the action, because they were out of bounds. Whatever the case may be, it can never be acceptable for such intervention in youth sports, and it is certainly illegal for a grown man to do that to an 11-year-old. Like others here, I feel most sorry for the son, who not only suffers the embarassment of his dad being a criminal idiot, but must suffer privately from his dad's uncontrollable temper.
posted by olelefthander at 11:28 AM on February 18, 2007
Southpaw... yea, good point. I was wondering about the "ring". You can see circles on the floor, aren't they supposed to be inside one of them? They seem to be just a few feet from the "ring" next to them. Maybe, these 2 had been wrestling outside the circle for way too long, and the ref was too slow on this? Could someone who knows wrestling answer this one? Were they wrestling where they were supposed to be, or were they out of bounds and still going at it?
posted by 2 time mvp of the shittiest team ever at 12:21 PM on February 18, 2007
To both frazier & godzilla!This bum assaulted an 11 year old child!He should be sitting in a jail cell as we speak!There is absolutely NO excuse for his behavior!!!If no one prosecutes this creep,SHAME on that entire community & all in here who condone it!
posted by mdavidsf at 12:36 PM on February 18, 2007
Anyone who has ever wrestled (I did for several years) knows this type of thing happens all the time. The kid started slipping into a chicken-wing type move (which isn't too far removed from the legal bar-arm), and the film shows the official was blowing his whistle, getting ready to stop the action because of a potentially dangerous move when the father flew into the picture. The person announcing the clip doesn't know a thing about wrestling, saying the other kid was going to be pinned (he wasn't even on his back). There are all types of legal moves in wrestling which result in your arms getting pulled back, twisted, you name it. Most kids who wrestle, and practice it, get use to being in these types of positions. I was a big, tall kid, even as a senior, and my arms could be pulled back and across my body in all kinds of wild ways, and while it was sometimes uncomfortable, it wasn't going to result in harm. The dad completely overreacted. If he doesn't like what he saw here, he'd better get the kid into basketball instead, because as he gets older, the moves get rougher and rougher. The official appeared to have the match under control, and parents need to accept this if their kids are in the sport. It's a great sport, but probably the toughest there is for youths who participate. As for the kids being outside the "ring," this is a kids wrestling tournament, and those events have matches going on all over the place, and each match doesn't have a ring. They have different markings for being out-of-bounds, most which involve just staying on the mat. There were probably six or so matches going on at the same time.
posted by dyams at 01:20 PM on February 18, 2007
First things first -- thanks for the tip, Bolo. Here's the link to the Chicago Daily Herald, which has some more background information. As fo the ring, you have to see one of these kids' tournament to believe it. There can be as many as 10-12 matches going on at any given time in the space of one basketball court, and the referees are not only charged with handling the match, but also must stop it if their wrestlers appear to be coming close to contacting another bout. As can be scene on the video, the rings sometimes even overlap. Given where the parallel starting lines are, however, this pair was nowhere near out of bounds. They're so far inside, in fact, that despite what the clueless TV reporter says about the kid being thrown out of the ring, he's clearly still inside of it. A quick look at some wrestling rules (and my own personal experience) shows the referee can stop the match for anything he deems as "unnecessary roughness." Olelefthander is right -- there is no pin here. The ref's stopping it because the controller wrestler is either making an illegal move (pulling the arm up behind the back beyond an acceptable degree) or there's clearly going to be some kind of injury to the controlled wrestler. The reaction of the father and repeated viewings of the video make me think this is what happened (warning: this is a guess, nothing more): The controlling wrestler, once behind and scoring his two points for the reversal, clearly grabs the controlled wrestler's right arm and wrenches it up behind the back. The controller's also leaning hard, pushing it farther and farther toward the controlled's neck. This isn't legal. It's absoutely acceptable to take control of the arm in an effort to roll the wrestler to his back or for other control issues, but the referee is obviously signaling a potentially dangerous hold (that's why his one hand is on the back of his head -- check here for a list of referee signals), one that I think had already gone beyind "potentially" dangerous. Now, for those of you who lack reading comprehension skills, I'll put more clearly what I said earlier -- what the father did was wrong. I'm not debating that. I'm saying that you should put away the pitchforks and torches and put yourself in that situation. If you can say you wouldn't make a move to stop your child from being seriously hurt in any situation where you had the chance to do so, I don't know what to say to you.
posted by wfrazerjr at 01:52 PM on February 18, 2007
I saw this reported on Fox News 2 or 3 days ago. According to them, the father's justification for his actions was that his son had a "bad shoulder", and he was afraid his son would suffer further injury. Dear Dad, If your son has some sort of injury, don't send him into the ring! Youth sports officials are taught first and foremost to emphasize the safety of the participants. Try trusting the referee next time. I'm sure he would not want to see a kid get hurt through his own error. Most of us who work as youth sports officials carry liability insurance, just in case something bad happens. Believe me, we don't want to get involved in a lawsuit, so we will do whatever it takes to keep the activity safe. In other words, keep the hell off the field, or off the ice, or out of the ring, stupid!
posted by Howard_T at 02:30 PM on February 18, 2007
Me? I'm the type to let my child experience the pain of being in the position he was in. That way, he might do a little more to keep himself out of it. If I jump in every time my kid gets put into a position like that, what's going to happen to him when he's in some alley and some guy pins his arm behind his back. Or a little more realistic, what's he going to do when he is in that position and all he needs is a 2 point reversal to win the state championship or a Gold medal. I think we all know that experience is the best teacher. Just imagine if, unbeknown-st to his father, the kid worked all month on some BJJ reversal that might have given him the win. Instead, hot head dad comes in, gets him DQ'd and has him feeling like an idiot everyday at school for the rest of the year. You never want to defend something like this because one day it leads to a career ending injury to a 11 year old kid that was just doing his best and more importantly, what he was taught. The dad with the camera is in a no win situation. If he doesn't react at all, he's considered a pussy (how idiotic), if he goes over to the 200 pounder that just assaulted his kid and pummels him, like the hockey dad did, then he over reacted and a bunch of lives get ruined. From the "hockey dad" victim's son: "I saw Thomas Junta beating my dad into the ground. For the rest of that day and for the next day, my heart was in my throat," said Michael Costin Jr. "Please teach Thomas Junta a lesson: Let the world know that a person can't do what Thomas Junta did to my dad, to my family and to me ... we all want Thomas Junta to go to prison for as long as your honor can put him there."
posted by Bishop at 02:30 PM on February 18, 2007
If you can say you wouldn't make a move to stop your child from being seriously hurt in any situation where you had the chance to do so, I don't know what to say to you. To help those with reading comprehension difficulties: "make a move" means send a kid flying. It was ugly, and handled wrong. Post another novella for us illiterate folk, if you still disagree.
posted by 2 time mvp of the shittiest team ever at 02:32 PM on February 18, 2007
Bad move, dad. If it were mortal danger then maybe, but it wasn't and he snapped.
posted by fenriq at 02:54 PM on February 18, 2007
Post another novella for us illiterate folk, if you still disagree. I said what Ray Hoffman did was wrong, and so has he. Some people are saying they wouldn't have done anything to halt the action, and I question their ability to put themselves in the same situation and say with certainty they wouldn't have somehow stepped in. Other people in here seem to be saying they'd let their child be hurt to teach him or her some sort of lesson. I question their ability as parents. Clear enough?
posted by wfrazerjr at 02:58 PM on February 18, 2007
I question their ability to put themselves in the same situation. You question it? Is this an ability you have? None of us can say anything with certainty about how we'd react, we're all just judging what we saw, and offering our opinions on it. I saw an angry man overreact and toss a small child - when an adult who was certified (I hope) to be in charge of the situation seemed to be. No one here should have their ability as parent's questioned because of what they say debating stuff on a sports talk website.
posted by 2 time mvp of the shittiest team ever at 03:46 PM on February 18, 2007
I agree with Bishop. Experience is the BEST teacher. I wrestled for 4 years in about the same as bracket as these wrestlers, and one thing I learned. NEVER, NEVER allow anyone to place you in the "honeymooner." This is an extremely painful position, but is only for 3 points, and not intended for a pin. It takes the wind out of you, and you can barely breathe. Meanwhile the ref can't hit the mat as your shoulder blades aren't touching the mat! Honeymooner - the controlled is back to the mat, and the controller has mounted, belly to belly, the controlled. The controller wraps up the head and extended arms of the controlled, meanwhile his legs pull up on the legs of the controlled. He then arches his back. I know, no wonder they call it the "honeymooner." I learned a huge lesson that day. IT HURTS!! Another thing. As wrong as this was, the thrown's father said "he lauched my boy 5 - 10 ft. in the air. Yes, he threw him, but it looked more like a couple of ft. backward, and only about a ft off the mat. Not condoning it, but it was a "little" exaggerated.
posted by bavarianmotorworker at 03:50 PM on February 18, 2007
Let them be hurt to teach them a lesson? I guess that is directed at me. Well since he was wrestling and he needs to learn to avoid being put in that position (if he wants to continue wrestling), then question away at my parenting skills (while you defend the hot head child abuser). Now I got it, don't let my child get hurt by another kid, but I can stomp someone elses. Family preservation. Clear enough.
posted by Bishop at 03:53 PM on February 18, 2007
Doesn't matter 'frazer'!The guy committed a criminal act & needs to be held accountable for it by the LAW!Society has evolved into an "if i apologize its ok"syndrome!Well,its not,& rehab of some sort won't help this thug either!
posted by mdavidsf at 05:46 PM on February 18, 2007
"To both frazier & godzilla!This bum assaulted an 11 year old child!He should be sitting in a jail cell as we speak!There is absolutely NO excuse for his behavior!!!If no one prosecutes this creep,SHAME on that entire community & all in here who condone it! posted by mdavidsf at 12:36 PM CST on February 18" The guy's penalty will be the shame and disgrace that he will bear for the remainder of his life. He not only lost a chance to coach youth sports again, he also likely has lost future promotions on his job and the capacity of people to take him seriously behind his back. Believe it or not, the cooler headed thing to do in this situation would be to not bring charges.
posted by Cave_Man at 06:43 PM on February 18, 2007
" said what Ray Hoffman did was wrong, and so has he. Some people are saying they wouldn't have done anything to halt the action, and I question their ability to put themselves in the same situation and say with certainty they wouldn't have somehow stepped in. Other people in here seem to be saying they'd let their child be hurt to teach him or her some sort of lesson. I question their ability as parents.' Fraz; I see where you're coming from, but have a different viewpoint. The father that intervened knew that his son was injured and allowed him to wrestle anyway, this was likely the mistake that gained him lifelong ridicule. The knowledge of his son's injury likely caused his overreaction. The lesson that I see for parents is that if their child is injured, or has a cold (for swimmers), the parent should intervene and stop the child from competing because allowing them to compete can lead to further injury or illness. The child will likely hate the decision that is made, at least until he or she is a parent and must make the same decision.
posted by Cave_Man at 07:13 PM on February 18, 2007
How young does wrestling start?
posted by 2bnamedl8r at 07:16 PM on February 18, 2007
"Doesn't matter 'frazer'!The guy committed a criminal act & needs to be held accountable for it by the LAW!Society has evolved into an "if i apologize its ok"syndrome!Well,its not,& rehab of some sort won't help this thug either! posted by mdavidsf at 5:46 PM CST on February 18" Why don't you take a gun, drive to his town and blow his brains out. That will show people that society does not think what he did was ok. Look, the guy is the butt of many jokes now, he will never have opportunities that would have come to him if he kept his cool. The guy may be a perfect father in all ways that fathers should be, would sending him to jail accomplish anything but damage one more family? The largest "penalty" that he should serve if he has no prior runin with the law is doing some hours of community service, if he meets those requirements, putting him in jail would be both an overreaction and a tragedy.
posted by Cave_Man at 07:24 PM on February 18, 2007
The guy's penalty will be the shame and disgrace that he will bear for the remainder of his life. I'm willing to bet $10 that if you visit that town in 2 years, 75% of the people won't remember the name of the father, OR, if given his name won't remember what he did. Quick example: Do you remember the name of the "Runaway Bride"? That was national news for over a month and we are coming up on the two year anniversary of the event.
posted by grum@work at 08:23 PM on February 18, 2007
You question it? Is this an ability you have? None of us can say anything with certainty about how we'd react, we're all just judging what we saw, and offering our opinions on it. I saw an angry man overreact and toss a small child - when an adult who was certified (I hope) to be in charge of the situation seemed to be. I'm not sure how you're missing this. Nowhere have I said Hoffman did the right thing, or that I would do the same thing. But other people here have said they would do nothing, nothing in the face of their child suffering a serious injury in front of them. I'm questioning their ability to make that call so surely. Now I got it, don't let my child get hurt by another kid, but I can stomp someone elses. Again, selective reading. You're saying I condone what Hoffman did. For the fourth time -- I don't. But I also don't condone the idea of allowing your child to be injured so he or she can learn a lesson for next time. If you think your son or daughter would learn a great deal from a broken arm that you could have prevented, we're coming from such different angles we'll never meet. That's fine. How young does wrestling start? In the area in which I used to cover these tourneys, age groups ran as young as five. That's why I wonder about the way Hoffman came up yelling at the cameraman/dad. In many instances, these are rematches played over and over across years, and kids and even programs get reputations as being dirty fighters. Again, it's not an excuse, but it could explain a little bit more Hoffman's overreaction. CM, you're right on the money about the injured shoulder, I bet. I missed that. I agree also about jail time. This guy shouldn't be allowed to ever coach again and he should definitely have some counseling. But I'm not sure how putting him behind bars serves any purpose, other than to hurt his family.
posted by wfrazerjr at 08:29 PM on February 18, 2007
I had to come back to yay-yo. He put his kid in harms way when he put him in a wrestling match. Using the same logic, you put your kid in harm's way every time you feed him, drive him to school or send him out to play in the backyard. Do you plan to stop doing all these things, or is it just possible that this was an extraordinary situation? The kid who was kicking his ass wasn't even breaking the friggin rules. Yes, he was, as is plain from the referee coming in to stop the action in the middle of the ring after clearly giving the "potentially dangerous hold" signal. The match would have been stopped sooner, except the ref was looking at the scorer's table to make sure they counted the two points for the reversal. In no form of amateur wrestling is it legal to intentionally attempt to injure someone. That's exactly what the controlling wrestler was doing by forcing the controlled wrestler arm up at that angle. Feel free to check the rule book I linked to above or make a call to your local HS wrestling coach. You're probably the jerkoff who wrote the letter to Hawkins up in CO! Man, have our standards dropped.
posted by wfrazerjr at 08:34 PM on February 18, 2007
My boy started at 9 years old at the local "rec center". It was a way for him to keep his weight down for Pop Warner. I was one of those Dad's that got really involved; but, even when he was in trouble and I wanted to yank a kid that may have been four years older than him, fact was they both weighed the same and they both were in a sport/sportsmanship/learning... Plus, what example does it set to other kids and parents if an adult can't control themself. That guy needs to appologize and write on the chalkboard 100 times "I will not be an asshole". I'm sure there's a law suit floating?
posted by burghfan33 at 09:33 PM on February 18, 2007
Wow. I'm coming in a little late to the party tonight, but I really need to put in my two cents worth. First, to all of you who seem horrified that someone could find it acceptable for their kid to "learn from pain", relax a little. Football, hockey, boxing, wrestling. Done 'em all. Never once without at least some pain. Comes with the territory, and it definitely adds to the learning experience. Injury is a whole different story, and that leads me to "the thrower". If he was afraid that his kid was in serious danger of injury I can see why he'd step in, especially if the ref was slow to act. Granted, the ref signaled the illegal move, but he didn't exactly rush in and it didn't look like the other kid was letting up yet. I think it's obvious that the ref could have stepped in physically in a more urgent fashion (or the dad, who was further away, wouldn't have gotten there before the ref even reached for the kids). Having said all that, the guy was really over the top. Launching the kid across the mat wasn't called for. He could have just as easily put an arm around the kids' waist or grabbed him by the back of his singlet and picked him up. Same result without taking a chance of hurting the other kid. It certainly looks like adrenaline got the better of him and he has some anger management problems. I'm glad he won't be doing any coaching and we can all hope that he never does anything this bone headed as a spectator again.
posted by ctal1999 at 10:25 PM on February 18, 2007
if this guy can't handle seeing his son get beat,he should stay home,or not let him wrestle.under no circumstances does a parent have the right to assault another kid at a sporting event.what is wrong with these people?
posted by mars1 at 01:48 AM on February 19, 2007
cave_man,it takes you 2 posts to defend breaking the law?& you think he's such a great parent?He let his kid compete w/a hurt shoulder! In a wrestling match for gods sake!Theres another legal charge he should be charged with!Embarrassment is not a punishment since no one in this country has any shame!You are proof of that!& nowhere in my posts do you see me advocating violence of any kind against the thug!He needs to be held accountable by law!Period!!! My last say on the issue!
posted by mdavidsf at 05:34 AM on February 19, 2007
If you think your son or daughter would learn a great deal from a broken arm that you could have prevented, we're coming from such different angles we'll never meet. That's fine. Did you ever wonder why (in Pro sports), you have some athletes that play forever without or through injury (Farve, Ripken, Iverson, just to name a few popular/current ones), then you have those who couldn't finish a season in 15 years? Why do you think that is? Does some sort of disease cause these often injured athletes to get hurt EVERY year? I've heard of brittle bone disease, but I can't imagine anyone playing sports with it. Is there a brittle ligament disease? I have a theory. Maybe some of the athletes that are always hurt had their parents jumping/stepping in every single time they appeared to be in pain. Then those who are never injured probably developed a natural toughness through years of "leaving it all on the field" even as a child. I know a guy that broke his leg 4 times as a child while playing sports. He began to study kick boxing, he would spend hours kicking his shins against trees (yea just like in the movies). He is now a BJJ/NHB/Muy Thai instructor and can take 2 by 4's across the front and the back of either leg without so much as twitching. It's common knowledge in the bodybuilding world that to build the human body up, you must break it down. I'm sure you have heard the term, "no pain no gain". So if there is an instance where my child must suffer a little to learn a lesson, then learn away. That way I can watch my son finish a season, while you will have to give your son the, "there is more to life than sports" speech while he is recovering from what should be a routine sprained ankle that just cost him his entire season and seems to have him miss 20-30 games before he even suits up. Then you can spend the rest of your life being like Minna Wilson, every time your child competes.
posted by Bishop at 06:04 AM on February 19, 2007
Bishop, I'm not arguing the need to play through pain. I understand it fully (from playing 13 years of football and baseball, wrestling and other sports), up to talking a doctor into signing off on a physical for my senior year despite having what he said was one of the worst inguinal hernias he'd ever seen. I did it with my coach standing right there, nodding his approval, and it ended up costing me my left testicle. You can decide for yourself whether it was worth it or not. I'm saying if you have the chance to stop your kid from being seriously injured when there's no need, and you wouldn't, I just can't grasp that. I don't think a broken arm teaches your son anything, especially one that could have been prevented. Also, I have to point out that it will be extremely difficult for your son to finish out the season with a broken arm or leg, but at least you can give him the "You can try again next season" speech in the emergency room. I think your theory is wrong. In my experience coaching, "playing through it" seems like it has more to do with upbringing and simple character than anything else. Some kids have a higher pain threshold than others, and both you and they learn what they can handle and not handle. You always want to err on the side of caution, but some kids play through a sprained ankle or a broken finger -- others don't. I highly doubt your sending your kid out there if he doesn't want to go, however, makes him tougher. I think it instead makes him more likely to quit and more likely to play timidly and get hurt even worse. He is now a BJJ/NHB/Muy Thai instructor and can take 2 by 4's across the front and the back of either leg without so much as twitching. Again, if this is a point you hope your child reaches, we're coming from completely different angles.
posted by wfrazerjr at 07:53 AM on February 19, 2007
If he was afraid that his kid was in serious danger of injury I can see why he'd step in, especially if the ref was slow to act. Granted, the ref signaled the illegal move, but he didn't exactly rush in and it didn't look like the other kid was letting up yet. I think it's obvious that the ref could have stepped in physically in a more urgent fashion (or the dad, who was further away, wouldn't have gotten there before the ref even reached for the kids). Ctal, if you'll go back up and read my earlier post, there are several reasons why the ref may not have reacted quickly. Also, a "potentially dangerous move" signal doesn't warrant a stop in action, yet this ref is headed down to the mat to put a halt to the match. He saw the controlled wrestler was being hurt, not in a legal fashion, and acted.
posted by wfrazerjr at 07:58 AM on February 19, 2007
My last say on the issue! Thank God.
posted by wfrazerjr at 07:58 AM on February 19, 2007
"cave_man,it takes you 2 posts to defend breaking the law?& you think he's such a great parent?He let his kid compete w/a hurt shoulder! In a wrestling match for gods sake!Theres another legal charge he should be charged with!Embarrassment is not a punishment since no one in this country has any shame!You are proof of that!& nowhere in my posts do you see me advocating violence of any kind against the thug!He needs to be held accountable by law!Period!!! My last say on the issue! posted by mdavidsf at 5:34 AM CST on February 19" I am happy that you can stop posting and go swallow your daily dose of Valium. Don't want to keep you from your meds. First off. If you calmly read my posts, you would see that I was not defending the guy. I did feel that there could have been underlying reasons for his actions. The guy screwed up, first by allowing his child to wrestle with an injury and second for over-reacting when he saw that his first mistake could lead to his child potentially suffering a permanent injury. His price for his mistake will be ridicule for as long as he lives in the region where his action happened. One person mentioned the runaway bride from Georgia. Yes, I do not remember her name, but I am willing to bet that 90% of the adult aged people in her hometown remember her name and pass it on regularly. I probaly will not remember the wrestling father's name next week even, but the same will not be the case for his neighbors nd townfolks, those are the people that he has to deal with daily, live and work among.
posted by Cave_Man at 08:43 AM on February 19, 2007
The ref was already bent down with his hand almost on the kid's back. He had already blown his whistle, according to the reports. The father seems to have just lost it and then started going to the other kid's father. I might break up a match if there was imminent harm that the ref was ignorning, though I doubt any kid would appreciate the interference. I definitely wouldn't toss another kid, though I have been tempted many times at the playground and my child is only three. As far as telling your kid that he can't wrestle with a shoulder injury, that's tough. I know that I would want to say no, but who knows if I would cave in the face of my child's insistence that he was fine and could wrestle and the shoulder didn't hurt and if he didn't wrestle he would lose all these great things that he wants. I'm realistic that my child is certainly going to have more say in these decisions than I would like. I don't mind seeing this guy in jail. He could have hurt someone and he doesn't have control of his temper. There are people in jail with families who did way less than this - victimless crimes. I think there should be a separate crime for parents who interfere with kid's sporting events.
posted by bperk at 09:01 AM on February 19, 2007
Anyone notice that after he throws the kid, what he feels most important to do next is not to check his kid but vent some more rage towards camera Dad. He never even glances at his own kid. E GO to fight Daddy next maybe? and this guy's being defended. Poor Society, Poor Little Society.
posted by 2 time mvp of the shittiest team ever at 09:34 AM on February 19, 2007
Quick example: Do you remember the name of the "Runaway Bride"? That was national news for over a month and we are coming up on the two year anniversary of the event. In communities, names persist a helluva lot longer than they do in the national conscious. He let his kid compete w/a hurt shoulder! Did you ever play sports? Playing injured happens quite a bit.
posted by jmd82 at 09:49 AM on February 19, 2007
The ref was already bent down with his hand almost on the kid's back. He had already blown his whistle, according to the reports. That's incorrect. The reports also said Hoffman was pinned (wrong) and that the other wrestler was thrown 5-10 feet in the air (wrong). You can count a good two seconds of the controlling wrestler wrenching Hoffman's arm before the referee bends down to stop the match. There was certainly enough time for the father to recognize the hold and cross to the middle of the mat. As I said earlier, the ref was looking at the scorer's table to make sure they registered the two points for the preceeding reversal when the illegal hold started. And even if there was a whistle, it may not have made any difference. The floor of one of these tourneys is unbelievably loud, and on several occasions I've seen kids stand up thinking their period or match was over, only to be slammed back down on the mat and find out the whistle was from an adjacent ring. Coaches are also constantly yelling, "Not your whistle!" or "Keep wrestling!" from all angles, so it would be tough for either wrestler here to know whether to stop or not. Two-Time, it makes me wonder also. Why would a father concerned enough to take this drastic of a step (which was wrong and I'm not condoning it, goddamnit -- I have to put that in bold every time now to keep people from conveniently skipping over it) then go directly after the father? Well, according to the follow-up story (and take reports for what they are worth), Hoffman was yelling, "This is not how the sport is done. This is not how the sport is to be coached.” Did the opposing wrestler figure out Hoffman had a bad shoulder and start working it over? Or was the opposing kid's father yelling at him to work the shoulder?
posted by wfrazerjr at 10:14 AM on February 19, 2007
Here's another video link, this one with some added commentary from what I assume is either Hoffman's lawyer or someone involved with the wrestling team. There's something interesting here -- note that the ref doesn't go over to the boy who's been shoved across the mat. Instead, he stays with the younger Hoffman, and appears to be checking to see if he's injured.
posted by wfrazerjr at 10:21 AM on February 19, 2007
"Did the opposing wrestler figure out Hoffman had a bad shoulder and start working it over? Or was the opposing kid's father yelling at him to work the shoulder? posted by wfrazerjr at 10:14 AM CST on February 19" The elder Hoffman knew that the kid had a bad shoulder. He alone is the culprit, not those taking advantage of the situation. With all due little respect to the "kids have to get hurt to be determined later in life" crowd, the younger Hoffman should have been on the sidelines in street clothing instead of on the mat.
posted by Cave_Man at 11:36 AM on February 19, 2007
My brother wrestled for 8 years, 4 high school, 4 college. He wrestled in the OVAC Ohio valley athletic confess, tourney and won it twice; He was honored for that this year of the 20th anniversary. When he wrestled his senior year he finished the last two matches with to cracked ribs. The doctors warned him not to continue. He went out anyway and won both matches in a great deal of pain. He refused to let them tape up the injury, because he did not his opponent to see that and try to take advantage of it. It is part of wrestling, if you see or know you opponent has an injury you go strait for that injury to get an advantage, it is part of the sport. He ended up winning the largest high school wrestling tournament in the nation that day for the second year in a row. In college he wrestled for Mount Union (yes the power house foot ball team in div III, The Purple Raiders With the two longest winning streaks in college football history, 54 & 55 Straight Wins, and div III national Championships in '93 '96 '97 '98 '00 '01 '02 '05 and '06). Anyway he was an OAC champion his sophomore thru senior seasons and an all American in wresting his junior and senior seasons. He wrestled his final 3 matches of the Nation championships his senior year with a badly broken clavicle bone. What I am trying to say is that this is a one on one sport and injuries are VERY common. If his son had a previous injury, he should have warned the coaches, or if he was the coach, he should have done what all coaches are thought to do in these cases. They should ALWAYS have a bath towel taped up into a tube like form. When you see trouble for your wrestler that you do not think he can get out of, you simply throw the towel, so that it hits the ref and the match ends that second. I have seen it done hundreds of times. In fact I wrestled 7 years behind my brother, in the pee wee class, in the same age group as the kids in the video. It was not the sport for me, and I had the towel thrown in more than a few times to save me. No matter what this father’s position was/is, he should be banned for life from that schools home and away events in any sport. He should be charged with assault and battery on the child, and if he touched the other child’s father assault on him as well. If I were the other kid’s father I would file for a restraining order against the father of the other child effectively banning him from entering the child’s school for any reason. I a sure a lawyer would advise him to sue for monetary damages, but I do not think it is warranted in this case, though a jury would more than likely award them some form of economic award. Anger management classes should also be ordered to this father. I am sure many here will strongly oppose me, but I am speaking as someone that has attended literal thousands of these matches, and is a father of a 5 year old son.
posted by vipers-pit at 11:49 AM on February 19, 2007
Walt... Are you trying to prove that what the guy did was right? or that you're right? I'm not sure posting to this site is worth the time if you're gonna dig holes that deep with a keyboard. Use a shovel, it's faster. I respected your posts from before this link, and I'll ignore this one and continue to enjoy yours in the future. But dude... look at the tape, this guy's a ragoholic. Say it, "My name's Walt, and that guys a ragoholic." Feel better? Thanks for clearing up what one of these tourneys looks like, chaos kinda. Be interesting to watch.
posted by 2 time mvp of the shittiest team ever at 12:04 PM on February 19, 2007
"To twist someones arm behind their back should be illegal. The dad was justified. The other dad was an obvious pussy as shown when the mad dad approached the camera. I say kudos to him for protecting his kid, unlike the other dad who watched his kid get thrown and did nothing. Hell with societies rules, the mad dad must have a family policy that says "If my kid is hurting, I will protect him." The pussy dad should adopt such a policy." posted by Godzilla82 at 7:33 AM CST on February 18 Does anyone know anything about -REAL- wrestling? I usually remain silent, but as a former wrestler this discussion is making me ill!.....See Ya.
posted by bo_fan at 12:18 PM on February 19, 2007
If I were the other kid’s father I would file for a restraining order against the father of the other child effectively banning him from entering the child’s school for any reason. Why? Has he threatened to continue going after the kid? If he hasn't, this would be a pointless and stupid gesture. Restraining orders serve the useful purpose of providing a mechanism to protect people from actual threats. Seeking to obtain a restraining order for no reason other than to cry boo-hoo-me-victim and villainize someone who isn't a future threat, only serves to make people not take restraining orders seriously.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:06 PM on February 19, 2007
I don't think a broken arm teaches your son anything fraze, every time you argue against a point I make you use the "broken arm" defense. WTF man, why must you make shit up just to prove a point. NOBODY SUFFERED A BROKEN ARM. Please stop with the words like "wrenching" and/or "serious injury". None of the above suffered anything close. I can't even figure out what part of his arm would have broken, yet you continue to refer to the kid that lost (or was losing) as haven broken something. Nothing broke, ok? The kid got up immediately and the WWE dad went for the other kids dad PERIOD. He knew his kid was ok, how else can you explain not immediately attending to him? He was looking for a fight, and guys that throw boys usually aren't much to handle when they come across the wrong person. A boy "wrenching" as you say, my kids arm in a controlled match is one thing. But some punk ass wanna be putting his hands on my child would have gotten him bitch slapped if I was in the wrong mood. I think the other dad should be commended for his self control. Then for you to assume that the level headed dad told his kid to "go for the shoulder" is just ridiculous or saying that Hoffman "figured out" the other kid had a bad shoulder (from what? a private investigators peewee scouting report?) is also nuts. If he was that type of guy, the WWE dad would be drinking his dinner through a straw. Why is it so hard for some people to understand that parents getting involved in kids sports is not a good thing, and the only thing it can lead to is stuff like this which you have yet to acknowledge, but I will continue to link to it until you understand that hot head dads (that touch 11 year olds) being defended on any level isn't good. You say you do not condone it, yet your defense of it continues. Restraining orders and calls for criminal charges are a little overboard. I don't even think the guy should be banned. Just let him know that if he touches another kid, somebody will toss his ass across the floor. Then we'll see how much he likes it.
posted by Bishop at 01:32 PM on February 19, 2007
Who the hell is Walt?
posted by wfrazerjr at 01:32 PM on February 19, 2007
Yeah,whos Walt & whats a ragaholic?
posted by mdavidsf at 01:48 PM on February 19, 2007
Yeah,whos Walt & whats a ragaholic?
posted by mdavidsf at 01:49 PM on February 19, 2007
maybe he meant rage-aholic? only a guess
posted by bavarianmotorworker at 01:50 PM on February 19, 2007
It's me. I'm Walt. And if you tell anyone else I'm gonna break your arm; Maybe toss your kid across a gym. You've been warned.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:51 PM on February 19, 2007
I'm with ya Weedy, lets head down to Little League and do some whoopin. Ya Baby
posted by texasred at 02:22 PM on February 19, 2007
Walt Clyde Frazier. Are you not him? My life's based on a lie.
posted by yerfatma at 02:23 PM on February 19, 2007
What a bunch of idjits. Obviously, a ragaholic is someone addicted tor ragohol.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:49 PM on February 19, 2007
Now the ever-touchy debate - is ragoholism a character flaw, genetics, or a disease?
posted by littleLebowski at 03:00 PM on February 19, 2007
ragohol - not to be confused with the fuel used by waltrip's crew.
posted by bavarianmotorworker at 03:16 PM on February 19, 2007
My name is Crafty, and I'm a ragoholic. That's why they call me "Swathepaw." I think that's why.
posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 03:42 PM on February 19, 2007
You mean a ragoholic is not a person who has an unhealthy obsession with Raggedy Ann? Crap, I joined the wrong support group.
posted by MrFrisby at 03:49 PM on February 19, 2007
See, you guys have started with the quotes and now if I come back with another long diatribe trying to get these people to understand that I don't condone what Ray Hoffman did, but he might not be an axe murderer again, I'll just seem like an ass. I'll have to think about it.
posted by wfrazerjr at 04:44 PM on February 19, 2007
Arms getting bent around is part of wrestling. As far as the one kid bending the arm back a ways for a second or two before the official was going to blow the whistle, a bar-arm, which means you control the other wrestler's arm with your own, which is under the opponent's arm and straight across the back, is legal and would not have been broken up (so to speak) by the official unless the wrestler on top moved that bar-arm up so his hand and wrist were up around the other guy's shoulder blade (making it an illegal chicken-wing). If you can't take seeing your kid get bent up like a pretzel constantly, don't let them wrestle. It's definitely not a sport for everyone. Those who can't hack it on the mat at an early age go over to basketball. And where I live, these junior tournaments start with a 7-8 year old class, so they start really young. As for this father, if he absolutely had to intervene on the mat (which he shouldn't have), he could have gone out on the mat calmly and just broken the two apart. It still would have been wrong, but he didn't have to chuck the other kid across the mat.
posted by dyams at 04:54 PM on February 19, 2007
ragoholic i've said it again cuz clearly you guys need a 2nd chance at being funny. and yes,...walt clyde... lol and if that ragoholic mcsmoked the mcweedy, we wouldnt be havin this conversation.
posted by 2 time mvp of the shittiest team ever at 06:19 AM on February 20, 2007
Sorry guys, I been sick with the flu. I just saw this video on YouTube then saw it on here and wanted to comment. I love wrestling, I wrestled thru-out my 4 years in high school as well as played baseball. Wrestling takes more out of you than any other sport I've ever played. Saying this, I have to agree that this was the funniest thing I've ever seen. I'm not saying that the kid thrown couldn't of gotten hurt but still, this was funny. The dad over-reacted, flung the other kid and now feels like an ass. This happens a lot in other kid's sports (not exactly this but...) as well so why is anyone surprised? Has anyone gone to a kid's soccer game, pee-wee baseball or any sport where there's a bunch of parents around? If not, then you don't know what you're missing. Talk about WWE, the parents that show up make Rated-RKO look like a bunch of bitches. On a good day, they sometimes jump off the bleachers to lock on the dreaded Kurt Angle ankle lock to the strikers too. Be afraid, be very afraid.
posted by BornIcon at 06:47 AM on February 20, 2007
So, nobody besides me is willing to cop to instant recall of the name "Jennifer Wilbanks"?
posted by Venicemenace at 07:44 AM on February 20, 2007
So, nobody besides me is willing to cop to instant recall of the name "Jennifer Wilbanks"? What does the 'Runaway bride' have to do with this kid's beatdown?
posted by BornIcon at 08:41 AM on February 20, 2007
You guys turnd a very seious subject into another joke? does this happen on all of the threads on this site? If so I will take it off my list. thank you Viper
posted by vipers-pit at 09:08 AM on February 20, 2007
That dad with the camera is just lucky it wasn't Greg Maddux's wrestling out there.
posted by jojomfd1 at 09:46 AM on February 20, 2007
oops Maddux's kid...
posted by jojomfd1 at 09:54 AM on February 20, 2007
You guys turnd a very seious subject into another joke? does this happen on all of the threads on this site? If so I will take it off my list. Sigh. Look - I made my point about this "serious" subject some time ago. It was one paragraph, near the top. Just one. Fraze, taking the other side of the coin, responded to the posts directed at him. So he had more. Then someone called him Walt and we took it from there. You seem to have chosen the option of screaming into the ether. It's okay - we've all been there - it's just that at some point we leave. We don't build a home and look around at the local schools. And lastly, dude (may I call you dude?.. Duderino?), I would hope that most of us understand that there are far more serious things than this subject. For instance - did you hear that luxury boxes are going the way of the dodo? My god - where will I take the hookers on the city's dime, now? Where, man - WHERE!?!
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:56 AM on February 20, 2007
You guys turnd a very seious subject into another joke? does this happen on all of the threads on this site? If so I will take it off my list. You don't get to keep the jersey. With your 11 posts on the Daytona thread, they may retire your number though.
posted by louisville_slugger at 10:09 AM on February 20, 2007
"...did you hear that luxury boxes are going the way of the dodo? My god - where will I take the hookers on the city's dime, now? Where, man - WHERE!?!" What's wrong with your local YMCA's locker room or pool? Maybe the chlorine in the pool will wash away the sweet smell of STD from them, I guess.
posted by BornIcon at 10:36 AM on February 20, 2007
What does the 'Runaway bride' have to do with this kid's beatdown? OK, I'll explain so you don't have to, you know, actually read the thread. Several people were calling for the head of the "WWE dad", demanding that he be charged with felonies and sent to jail for what he's done. Another faction demurred, suggesting that he has already been punished by the vast publicity surrounding this event, his name is mud nationally and in his community, and he will never live this down, so in a sense, justice has already been served courtesy of the 24-hour news cycle and its unquenchable thirst for this kind of story. However, Grum argued that people have a pretty short memory for this kind of thing, and used the "Runaway Bride" as his example, suggesting that everyone has forgotten her name. Several other people acknowledged that they had forgotten her name, but I remember it as clear as day, and I bet I'm not the only one, although I was the only one to admit it. I think the point of all this is that these people DO live on in ignominy years after the embarrassing incidents that give them 15 minutes of fame. The point is well taken, however, that most people don't have the inclination to commit such trivia to memory.
posted by Venicemenace at 11:22 AM on February 20, 2007
Venice, I was only joking. I know who she is but the question remains: Can she lift a kid that high as well? Maybe they should make that into an Olympic event.
posted by BornIcon at 11:43 AM on February 20, 2007
wfrazerjr: Using the same logic, you put your kid in harm's way every time you feed him, drive him to school or send him out to play in the backyard. Do you plan to stop doing all these things, or is it just possible that this was an extraordinary situation? How can you equate wrestling to "playing in the backyard" (unless you're talking about backyard wrestling, which I would not allow in my backyard). You don't think that sending your kid in to do hand-to-hand combat with another kid is more dangerous than "feeding him". Yikes! All of the situations that you have described warrant a parent stepping in. No matter how you explain yourself, there is no way that the dude who tossed the kid can be defended. If he has no record, he should not and probably will not go to jail. A lifetime ban from coaching or attending any wrestling events should suffice. It's gonna be tough to explain to his kid "why daddy can't come watch you wrestle" (Because Daddy is a MORON who can't control himself). PS. I apologize for the Hawkins comment. I was just shocked to see someone trying to defend this asshole. I was even more shocked to see it coming from someone who usually leaves pretty well-thought-out posts. N/E how, I think you hung yourself on this one buddy.
posted by yay-yo at 11:59 AM on February 20, 2007
So, nobody besides me is willing to cop to instant recall of the name "Jennifer Wilbanks"? I'm the one that posed the question and I couldn't remember her name. If I was given a multiple choice option (pick one of 5/10/15 names), I might have gotten it, but I'm not sure.
posted by grum@work at 12:05 PM on February 20, 2007
Okay, I can't stand it. Look, I'm not "defending" Hoffman. I'm saying it's just possible he thought his son was about to be seriously injured and he reacted. In fact, I think it's highly likely, given that the ref was stopping the match, he knew his son already had a bad shoulder, etc. In that respect, it's no different than the difference between a cold-blooded murderer and someone who acts in the heat of the moment -- the law takes such things into consideration, if even you won't. I will. I'm willing to look at the circumstances -- his son was already injured, the opposing wrestler was using an illegal move, the referee didn't appear to be stopping the match -- and say, "Damn it, I think I would have done the same thing." The point is not that he wasn't hurt, it's that he could have been hurt and was in a position where he very likely would be hurt. If you can say you'd be in that situation and not take some sort of action, whatever it would be, I don't understand that. I know I'd spend the rest of my life thinking, "I could have kept my child from being seriously hurt and I didn't do a damned thing." Yes, it was in a wrestling match. So what? That sort of move is illegal and dangerous, and if it's not, why was the ref moving to stop the match? Assume you're coaching your son's midget football team. In a pile-up right in front of you, an opposing player is gouging your son's eyes and the ref can't see it. What if it was at the bus stop? In line at Disneyland? You wouldn't do anything? Why not? So your son can grow up to be tough? I don't see that teaching him to be tough and protecting him when necessary are mutually exclusive. Did Hoffman overreact? Of course he did. There was absolutely no reason to launch the other kid across the ring. But that's the thing about a spur-of-the-moment decision, isn't it? Sometimes things just don't turn out the way you'd hope, especially if you'd had time to think a bit more. Hoffman will never be able to coach his son, or anyone's son, again. That's absolutely the right thing. But is putting this guy in jail going to help? Do you really think Hoffman's a child abuser who might come out at night to snatch your kids and throw them around? Finally, if you read my posts, you know I'm normally pretty black-and-white on stuff like this, i.e. nail the bastard. I guess that's why I can't see how so few people see what I see -- a guy who flipped momentarily because he really thought his child was going to be hurt badly. You can condemn him for the result of his actions ... but I don't know how you can be so harsh for his motive.
posted by wfrazerjr at 12:32 PM on February 20, 2007
yay-yo: How can you equate wrestling to "playing in the backyard" (unless you're talking about backyard wrestling, which I would not allow in my backyard). You don't think that sending your kid in to do hand-to-hand combat with another kid is more dangerous than "feeding him". Yikes! Well, see...sport wrestling isn't a "fight", any more than a karate match, a boxing match, a kendo match, or any other sport variants are. There's a distinction, both legal and philosophical, between the two. But when injury is involved or threatened, it puts our understanding of that distinction to the test, and if that understanding wasn't so great to start with -- and it generally isn't, even among some participants -- then some real problems can occur. The fact remains, though, that sport wrestling is not "hand-to-hand combat" by any reasonable definition. It's a sporting contest, and therefore, there are reasonable expectations of limits.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 12:56 PM on February 20, 2007
Fraze, I agree with what you're saying. If the guy was already coaching somewhere, it means he chose to do that as a profession or voluntarily. Either way, he's working with children and that right there rings a bell that he may like being around kids and helping them develop in their sport of choice. I don't think he meant to hurt this kid when he hurled him across state lines but regardless, he's not going to be able to teach anyone's child anything. We can all learn a thing or two from this guys mistake since we are all human but not all parents.
posted by BornIcon at 01:29 PM on February 20, 2007
Dictionary.com Unabridged (v 1.1) - Cite This Source wres·tling /?r?sl??/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[res-ling] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. a sport in which two opponents struggle hand to hand in order to pin or press each other's shoulders to the mat or ground, with the style, rules, and regulations differing widely in amateur and professional matches. Compare catch-as-catch-can (def. 3), Greco-Roman (def. 3). 2. the act of a person who wrestles.
posted by louisville_slugger at 01:32 PM on February 20, 2007
walt... can i call you walt? In your first paragraph you say "In fact, I think it's highly likely, given that the ref was stopping the match, he knew his son already had a bad shoulder, etc." The ref's stopping the fight, ok, i'll give ya that since it's given. I'll regiven-gift ya. In your 2nd paragraph, your objective approach it seems, good on ya for tyring... you say "the referee didn't appear to be stopping the match " You now have 2 options: 1. Run from this post screaming, and never look back. 2. Hence forth, be referred to as Walt.
posted by 2 time mvp of the shittiest team ever at 02:00 PM on February 20, 2007
Ah, but the difference escapes you, MVP. The referee did attempt to stop the match in going to the mat and grabbing for the controlling wrestler, which points to a potential injury and the severity of the situation. The ref, however, didn't appear to be stopping the match, as a full two seconds passed from the application of the illegal hold and the ref's first movement in. This would support my belief that Hoffman felt he had to get onto the mat immediately to prevent injury and that he (over)reacted in haste. I think I'll stay in the post. And yes, you can call me Walt, although a simple glance at a profile would clear up your mistake. My father actually played pick-up ball with Frazier in college, so I sort of consider it an honour.
posted by wfrazerjr at 02:30 PM on February 20, 2007
LBB: Please refer: –noun 1. a sport in which two opponents struggle hand to hand in order to pin or press each other's shoulders to the mat or ground, with the style, rules, and regulations differing widely in amateur and professional matches. Compare catch-as-catch-can (def. 3), Greco-Roman (def. 3). Thanks LS. LBB, put that in your pipe and smoke it.
posted by yay-yo at 02:36 PM on February 20, 2007
Thanks LS. LBB, put that in your pipe and smoke it. Actually, I'm going to suggest that both you and Louisville stop playing word-lawyer. You found the phrase "hand to hand" in a dictionary definition of wrestling: congratulations on the google skills, but that doesn't make sport wrestling equivalent to "hand-to-hand combat". There are rules and limits in sport wrestling, and yes, shit does happen, but it's still a very long way from "anything goes". I will quote my comment again, since I really think you missed the point the first time: ...sport wrestling isn't a "fight", any more than a karate match, a boxing match, a kendo match, or any other sport variants are. There's a distinction, both legal and philosophical, between the two. But when injury is involved or threatened, it puts our understanding of that distinction to the test, and if that understanding wasn't so great to start with -- and it generally isn't, even among some participants -- then some real problems can occur. The fact remains, though, that sport wrestling is not "hand-to-hand combat" by any reasonable definition. It's a sporting contest, and therefore, there are reasonable expectations of limits.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 03:10 PM on February 20, 2007
It was not my intention to play "word lawyer". I'm not a wrestling expert. You said it was not hand to hand combat by any reasonable definition. Although I actually agreed with what you were saying, (believe it or not), I wondered how it would be defined. While it was a little ironic to see the hand to hand,I think the second part of that sentence totally supports what you were saying. with the style, rules, and regulations differing widely in amateur and professional matches. Compare catch-as-catch-can (def. 3), Greco-Roman (def. 3). I think that totally supports your statement...It's a sporting contest, and therefore, there are reasonable expectations of limits....which I happen to agree with. Lbb, please don't take offense...while I did find it a bit ironic, I posted defending your position...I can see how it could be seen as something different, and maybe I should have stated my position in the same post. Yay Yo, Im glad you liked the post, but I don't come here to get in any pissing contests.
posted by louisville_slugger at 03:54 PM on February 20, 2007
Isn't the situation basically that the kid with the known hurt shoulder was subjected to an illegal chicken-wing hold and the dad in question stopped the action by throwing the kid and confronted the coach/cameraman about 'thats not how the sport should be coached' Thats what I seemed to have gleaned from the articles and the posts. The guy over-reacted and should have some consequences but he was probably right - at 11 year old rec wrestling thats (targeting an injury to gain advantage) not appropriate coaching. I had a similar issue with a football coach with my 10 year old son, where the opposing coach told his player to cut-block my son - which was illegal (albeit a well-known technique at the pro level) I didn't rush the field, but the coach and I had words very similar to the dad in question, and I was pretty pissed.
posted by sfts2 at 04:01 PM on February 20, 2007
It was not my intention to play "word lawyer". I'm not a wrestling expert. You said it was not hand to hand combat by any reasonable definition. Although I actually agreed with what you were saying, (believe it or not), I wondered how it would be defined. While it was a little ironic to see the hand to hand,I think the second part of that sentence totally supports what you were saying. Ah, okay. Well, I think the important word is "combat". "Hand-to-hand combat" is generally used to describe close-range fighting where the outcome stands a strong chance of being lethal. It's what they teach in the military, and where you see the phrase used elsewhere, it's generally trying to take advantage of that military connotation. Martial arts schools that claim to be teaching "hand-to-hand combat" often toss in various military phrases and talk about lethal this and deadly that -- they're playing on a certain image and selling to a certain fantasy. To yay-yo, I understand, of course, that sport wrestling isn't (generally) like playing in one's backyard. My only point was that it's also a long way from a situation where you shouldn't be surprised at any outcome.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 05:15 PM on February 20, 2007
walt... we speak two different languages i'm afraid cause u base your first assumption on what you SEE in the tape, and the 2nd one on what APPEARS. You give visual evidence for him attempting to stop the match but it appears he isn't stopping the match? if you're differentiating doing / attempting... you can't. Because without oppurtunity, doing can't be done. ref had no chance to finsih what he was attempting to do. strike 7, dugouts that way.
posted by 2 time mvp of the shittiest team ever at 06:29 AM on February 21, 2007
we speak two different languages i'm afraid cause u base I've never felt prouder of a language barrier.
posted by yerfatma at 07:44 AM on February 21, 2007
I think you "super parents" need to admit that putting your kid in any sport, comes with the acceptance of the fact that they will probably get hurt (hopefully not badly or permanent) and there is nothing you can do about it. If they get hurt, you WAIT AT THE SIDELINE, and ask them if they are ok. If not, you drive them to the Dr. END OF STORY. You do not interrupt the contest or event, UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. Have you ever seen a football players parents run out on the field? Those guys get paralyzed. You don't see Peyton Manning's daddy running in off the sidelines to stop a linebacker from making a blindside hit. I'm sure he has been the victim of those many times. The moral of this story is that in a "sporting environment", parents should be spectators/cheerleaders ONLY. They shouldn't be there to tell the ref how to do his job or to decide that someone is using an "illegal hold". That's why refs get paid to be there. I guess there is one thing that we can all agree on. If you can't stand to watch your child get hurt, don't have ANY.
posted by yay-yo at 09:32 AM on February 21, 2007
I think the one thing we can all agree on is that you probably don't have any kids.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 11:34 AM on February 21, 2007
yay-yo You seem to not understand the difference between the normal acceptance of risk of playing a sport, and watching a coach and player attempt to deliberately hurt your child (possibly). You also don't seem to realize the difference between 11 year old recreational sports and professional football. A blindside hit is not an illegal move with the goal of injury, and Manning is not an 11 year old rec wrestler. Whatever your own opinion is, it is nothing more than that, regardless of how strongly you believe it. No one condones the parent's actions, but I also think that 'over the top' parenting is just as bad a 'over the top' coaching and I can empathize with the parent who saw it happening to his child and then exercised bad judgement by reacting emotionally. Don't confuse media hype with the evidence of your own eyes. The kid wasn't thrown 10 feet, blah, blah, blah, and it certainly did not subject him to physical risk greater than the sport he was participating in. Papers like to sensationalize this stuff to help them sell papers.
posted by sfts2 at 11:37 AM on February 21, 2007
I had a similar issue with a football coach with my 10 year old son, where the opposing coach told his player to cut-block my son - which was illegal (albeit a well-known technique at the pro level) I didn't rush the field, but the coach and I had words very similar to the dad in question, and I was pretty pissed I had the exact same thing happen to me when I was coaching 11-12 year olds in football. An opposing coach told one of his players to cut block one of our offensive tackles, it broke his ankle. The kid that did it felt so bad, he came over after the game and appologized. The league did zero about it. Needless to say the guys I coached with and I don't coach there anymore. The biggest problem with kids and sports isn't the kids, it's the adults, be it a parent, coach, or even an older sibiling. I know when we practiced, we would have rather had closed practices. That way no parents could yell at their kids while we were trying to coach them. All that did was embarasss the kid and make it harder to teach him anything the rest of the day, because they are to worried about the parent thats watching.
posted by jojomfd1 at 02:43 AM on February 22, 2007
Here is the video.