December 16, 2006

Nuggets-Knicks brawl ends with 10 players ejected: Ten players, including NBA scoring leader Carmelo Anthony, were ejected for fighting during a wild brawl near the end of Saturday night's game between the Denver Nuggets and New York Knicks. I can't believe Melo actually clocked Collins in the mouth.

posted by STUNNER to basketball at 11:11 PM - 47 comments

I didn't know that Anthony could pack a punch like that! Did Collins actually stagger and fall or did he trip? I didn't see it live, I saw the replays when I got home from work. If the Knicks were looking for an excuse to fire Thomas, here's their chance. What a debacle.

posted by wingnut4life at 11:17 PM on December 16, 2006

Here come the comparisons to the suspensions that David Stern and the National Brawling Association (well, someone else was gonna use that!) doled out in the wake of the Auburn Palace melee of 2004. This is a huge setback for the league, trying to clean up its image after the aforementioned brouhaha. Business suits at league-sponsored events when not in uniform? Hmph. These guys are athletes, many from blue-collar backgrounds, and reacting like that in the heat of the moment is second-nature in most cases. No amount of "image preservation" is going to cover this up, especially now. We'll just wait for the league to hand out its punishments, argue about that for awhile, and go back to watching the games.

posted by NerfballPro at 12:10 AM on December 17, 2006

Over-paid trash. Let the excusses begin. Come on, this is nothing but a classless act and it will be brushed under the carpet; maybe some fines will be handed out, but they will have no impact on people who are multi-millionaires. Just because you are an athlete does not give you the right to attack someone. Imagine if anyone who visits Sportsfilter were to participate in a brawl at their workplace - how long would they continue to be employed? The NBA needs to send a message that these acts will not be tolerated and terminate the player's contracts.

posted by FonGu at 03:51 AM on December 17, 2006

Over-paid trash Please stop acting like children were raped. A few guys wrestled around and 1 guy got punched for running his mouth. That act gets you a 5 minute penalty in the NHL. Who cares. Are NBA fans and NHL fans this far apart when it comes to fighting? Now begin all the responses about how your kid is going to be under developed socially, and emotionally wounded because he caught the "brawl involving the over paid trash" on sportscenter.

posted by Bishop at 04:41 AM on December 17, 2006

I don't think this is really comparable with the Pacers-Pistons brawl. Did this leave the court and go into the stands? Did fans become involved? Did it involve player on fan violence? I think in the absence of those factors that this is just another sports brawl. Of course, I haven't seen the MSG brawl yet but I think that the big deal about the brawl in Auburn Hills is that it left the court and involved fans. Does anyone have a link with decent video?

posted by geekyguy at 04:47 AM on December 17, 2006

T.K.O. at M.S.G. O.K.!

posted by tommybiden at 05:18 AM on December 17, 2006

Ah, so that's where all fighting in Hockey went, the NBA. In other unrelated news, several NBA scouts were seen at the gym watching Mike Tyson train for his next fight.

posted by apoch at 07:14 AM on December 17, 2006

ESPN has the video on their game story page. There's a lot of money sitting in the seats right there that it spilled into. Don't think that won't have an effect the punishment. I'm not saying I agree with that, but we all know how the world works. Also, hockey players (Tie Domi and a few others excluded) don't throw punches like that and then run and hide behind teammates. I'm not much of a fighter, but if you're gonna throw, throw. Don't run away.

posted by SummersEve at 09:03 AM on December 17, 2006

Some of the above comments are making references of the NBA to the NHL. Atleast in the NHL they have a more controlled fight. The fight doesn't last very long and the game moves on. Maybe its time for David Stearns to put glass around the court and let these guys duke it out and keep the fans safe. As for Marshmelo Anthony, what a wuss! Tosses and connects on a haymaker then runs away like he just clocked his big brother and then reality set in. He should be fined for being a pansy. As for the actual foul that started the melee, it didn't look all that bad in slow motion. Major overreaction in my opinion.

posted by panteeze at 09:27 AM on December 17, 2006

Basketball is not a ghetto sport. Basketball is played in every neighborhood, it just so happens some of the the best athletes come from low income areas. I hope they punish the players involved good. There is no excuse for such behavior in any sport IMO.

posted by Toyster at 10:38 AM on December 17, 2006

There's a lot of money sitting in the seats right there that it spilled into. Don't think that won't have an effect the punishment. I'd be willing to bet that the "money" in those seats couldn't WAIT to tell their corporate pals about being right there when it all happened. I agree that if this brawl had stayed entirely on the court and had not "rolled" into the stands, we'd be looking at 5 game suspensions, tops. However, I'm expecting no more than 10 games for anyone. That said, it was pretty wussy of Melo to punch and run like that. Maybe its time for David Stearns to put glass around the court and let these guys duke it out and keep the fans safe. Bring back the cages!

posted by grum@work at 10:49 AM on December 17, 2006

[Nerd alert: I went and edited and enhanced the wikipedia article grum linked to.]

posted by tieguy at 11:07 AM on December 17, 2006

Melo will get the biggest suspension, because (a) he poured gasoline on a dying fire with his sucker punch, and (b) he's the highest-profile player involved, and Stern is big on Setting An Example. I'd guess 12-15 games for him. Nate Robinson will get 8-10 himself, and maybe a few others will get some time too, but what I really want to know is whether Isiah, who clearly authorized his players to start something so late in the game, will get anything.

posted by chicobangs at 12:05 PM on December 17, 2006

Oh, there will be huge fines and suspensions from this one. Rightly so, but because of the Malice at the Palace (which was far more entertaining) they'll be enormous. Nate Robinson could see some big time punishment considering he seemed to be right in the middle of everything, is a marginal player and could be made an example of. And I'm with chico - this reeks of Isiah stink. Melo should get the biggest suspension. That was unbelievably chickenshit. Not to mention incredibly stupid. You're the leading scorer in the NBA. Think the team might need ya? Finally something exciting to say a about an already ghetto sport, the best cure for insomnia ( just watch a nba game) when is the nba going to stop recruiting players from all the playgrounds in the hoods of america Sorry, I know we're not supposed to react to trolls, but this one really gets my goat. Not only flaming ignorant, simple-minded and racist - the punctuation is just horrible. Screw the NHL, Baseball has these kind of brawls ALL THE TIME (maybe not all the time, but at least three/four times a year). More so than any other sport that I can think of. NASCAR Drivers are routinely chucking knuckles in the pits (and occassionally, and highly entertainingly, on the racetrack). The NBA is laughably non-violent by comparison (and frankly, with all the phyiscal contact, it's a miracle that these things don't happen more). Fine 'em. Suspend 'em. Move along.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 12:25 PM on December 17, 2006

My God. The Knicks were talking about how having their starters on the floor was "embarassing" them; if it wasn't already embarassing, it couldn't get any worse. Your team played awfully and 10 more points weren't going to make it any worse. It's an excuse. This whole idea of code of conduct based on running up the score is ridiculous; you're men, not children. Leave your egoes at the door. Isiah out to be tossed out for this; sending a barely played rookie out on the floor who "happens" to commit a hard foul sounds a little too coincidental to think it wasn't designed. The whole victim mentality he's got is tiring. I also like how this is a great opportunity for latent racism to rear its ugly head and allow people to talk about how this is a problem directly from "the hood" and "ghettos". Outside of the fact that most of these kids got out of the streets and into universities, there have been enough rich, spoon-fed white athletes caught in situations like these in professional sports to disprove any indication that's what happened.

posted by dfleming at 12:26 PM on December 17, 2006

Not only flaming, ignorant, simple-minded and racist- the punctuation is just horrible. If there were a Spo-Fi award for humor, you would certainly get my vote, Weedy. And your other points were absolutely correct, too. Isiah's million dollar smile may be the most disingenuous face in sport.

posted by mjkredliner at 01:09 PM on December 17, 2006

I agree w/ dfleming on the Isiah aspect. He was a punk who walked the Pistons past the Bulls bench when they were losing the finals. He talked so much smack that Karl Malone gave him sixty something stitches in his pretty face with an elbow (legally and happily). Thomas initiated the entire scene by talking to the opposing players (a taboo for a coach) and then I am sure he ordered the "hard foul", a cheap shot in any intelligent opinion. He should have been a man and confronted the coach after the game if he had a problem with it. It was not the players fault. Maybe Isiah has a bit of Pete Rose in him and was pissed the Nuggets didn't allow him to cover the spread. Thomas should be arrested for inciting a riot. That is exactly what he did. Take an ass beating like a man. He, without a doubt, initiated the violence. He was a punk as a player, a punk as a GM, and now has no respect of any coach or organization in the league. I would be surprised if he is fired, they have too much money tied up with him (and the other coaches and players he got rid of). I would not be surprised if every other team that has the opportunity does not also try to run up the score. Whatever the worst suspension is given to any of the players involved, the NBA should fine and suspend Thomas triple the amount.

posted by urall cloolis at 05:06 PM on December 17, 2006

I like how some poeple can put their peverbial black robes on and make judgements abouts things they would most likely act different if they were put in the same situation. It kills me how people see money as a reson to act differently. We hate it when someone with money acts like they are better than us, so why do we put them down on the same notion when they would do the same thing that we would do on the street? Money or no money, they are human. the player over reacted to a foul that was like the marshmallows that you put into a smores bar. This guy jumped in his face for no reason. You better believe that he should have had the taste knocked out of his mouth. Lets get real, hard fouls are part of the game. Psychology is also a large part of the game. If the Nuggets were dumb enough to react, even if Isaiah said something is the players fault, not the coach. Mark Cuban yells things at the players the whole game and he is an owner. But everyone looks at him like he is just a big kid in love with the game. Lets stop being hypocritical and let the players handle theirs. If they fight, they fight and will pay for it. But for us, as fans, most who make these judgemental comments have never played ball in thier lives, would treat these players like humans, we would be a better people as a whole.

posted by The_mastermind_433 at 06:13 PM on December 17, 2006

Mastermind- you are missing the point. A coach is the "mastermind" of the entire affair. It was his reaction to a big loss that set the entire thing falling like dominos. If he had not lost control of the situation, his team would not have, nor would the opposition react. He is a classless coach, just as he played with no class. There was a reason he was continually rated as the most hated man in basketball when he was a player. He had no problem showing up opponents late in a blowout game. When it happens to him he is always pissed. If Isiah knew how to be a good GM or Coach he would not have put himself or all the players this will effect in this position. He is the person that sent it spiralling downward.

posted by urall cloolis at 06:55 PM on December 17, 2006

The_mastermind_433 said, "But for us, as fans, most who make these judgemental comments have never played ball in thier lives". I don't know about you, but I've played basketball at least once or twice. Not at the professional level, but I've played basketball. You may have meant at the professional level, but that argument is stupid and I hate how people always insist on bringing it up. I'm not a professional athlete, so what? That doesn't mean I can't have a grasp good sportsmanship or appropriate behavior on a basketball court. I'm trying to figure out the meaning behind your post. I think you are saying that people are hypocrites for decrying behavior that you assume we'd all do in the same situation. I've never punched anyone for shoving someone else, on or off an athletic field. I've never run away either. So I feel free to criticize Carmelo for pulling a hit and run. I feel free to criticize the Nuggets for poor sportsmanship by keeping the starters on the floor with a twenty point lead, and for wearing those awful uniforms. I feel free to criticize Isiah Thomas for probably ordering a dirty play and being a horrible GM and coach. I feel free to criticize everyone invovled for their unacceptable behavior. The fact that I'm not a professional athlete (or much of an amateur one for that matter) does not make me a hypocrite. By criticizing their behavior, I am treating them like humans. They are human, they make mistakes. That doesn't mean they should just be let off the hook. Some types of mistakes you are supposed to outgrow and the fact that you are a multimillionare doesn't give you the right to skip that step in the maturation process.

posted by apoch at 07:03 PM on December 17, 2006

Example- late in a 20 plus point win against the (then and always) hopeless Bullets team he had an uncontested layup and flipped the ball under his off (left) hand and then turned around to make a layup in the air facing away from the basket. Very athletic and impressive. He thought it was an athletic move then and thought nothing about it. Now as a coach he is supposed to be the "BLOWOUT POLICE"? Have you ever played? If a coach asks you to do something, especially if you are a bench player, you do it to get in his good graces. Cheney at Temple asked a bench player to go "hack" an opponent in a blowout and the fouled player ended up with a broken arm and end of his season. At least Chaney apologized and took responsibility. I see no difference in this case. Thomas is an ass, argument over no matter how you view it.

posted by urall cloolis at 07:06 PM on December 17, 2006

well, here we go again. you get these punk ass thugs showin off because they are on tv. ill admit, the foul was uncalled for. but then u get these punks showin off not acting like professionals. stickin out their chest like they are still in the hood, the streets or wherever. these punk ass thugs want the pro s money but they dont act like it. then you have the biggest punk ass of em all, Melo. who now you can call Marsh-Melo! this chump threw a sucker punch, then ran backwards like a little bitch. what a joke. i will say no more on that. Marsh-Melo will get suspended for about 10 games and pay a fine. big deal! if they make the playoffs, he should sit out the playoffs. then maybe these punks will think twice about tryin to be a hardass and showin off on tv. if they dont make the playoffs, suspend his punk ass half of next season.

posted by vito938 at 08:47 PM on December 17, 2006

Vito are crazy or what? Did you see the replay at all? A sucker punch is something you do from behind or out of view of the person you are hitting. Or when someone isn't expecting to get hit. The guy that got hit was FACING Carmelo and running his mouth in the middle of what was a mini rumble. You don't know what was said nor do I. I just got done reading another thread on Spofi that stated we shouldn't condemn T.O. for spitting on Hall because "we don't know what D. Hall said to him, and he might have deserved it". Why doesn't the same thinking apply here? What if he said to Carmelo, "I'm going to punch you in your face", and Melo beat him to it. It was hardly a sucker punch. Did he run afterwards, sure he did. That was a sissy move, but this "sucker punch" shit needs to stop. He was running his mouth (just like D. Hall was when he got spat on) and he got decked for it. (face to face) Also using terms like, thug, punk and ghetto is really ridiculous. These terms are almost never used during baseball bench clearing brawls. Someone "tryin to ack hard on da TiVo" as ViTo put it, is one thing, but someone "tryin to ack hard on da intro-net by callin mofo's punks and thugs" is another. Somebody should suspend your Spofi access until next season.

posted by Bishop at 09:32 PM on December 17, 2006

What a huge vocabulary vito938. I almost didn't see "punk-ass" being used every other word. apoch: "So I feel free to criticize Carmelo for pulling a hit and run. I feel free to criticize the Nuggets for poor sportsmanship by keeping the starters on the floor with a twenty point lead, and for wearing those awful uniforms." LMAO. Good stuff apoch.

posted by STUNNER at 10:09 PM on December 17, 2006

Major overreaction in my opinion, too. Thanks, Panteeze. It was a simple brawl. I rather enjoyed it. Basketball games are spared this type of embarassment except on rare occasions, but these are humans out there on the court, and you know how humans are. Remembering years back when I played baseball, when there was a brawl it was always a bench clearing brawl, because, if you didn't get your butt off the bench and get into it, you could be assured that your teammates would make that same butt sore. We always heard that it was a part of the game.

posted by Bud Lang at 10:18 PM on December 17, 2006

I just got done reading another thread on Spofi that stated we shouldn't condemn T.O. for spitting on Hall because "we don't know what D. Hall said to him, and he might have deserved it". Hey Bishop, who said that? You have a link? You put that in quotes, so I'm assuming that someone actually said that (or even said something approximating that), and it's not some straw man argument you made up. Which you do a lot.

posted by chicobangs at 10:43 PM on December 17, 2006

Do I have a link? I paraphrased as you often do (there are many links to prove that). Sorry if you didn't get what I got out of the T.O. thread. Did you want to "brawl" over having a different opinion? Or are you referring to some other "opponent"? I gave my opinion or intepretation of what I read. I didn't argue anything. So much for your newly obtained straw-man link. You might want to use it only when applicable.

posted by Bishop at 12:14 AM on December 18, 2006

In the style of Crocodile Dundee "that aint a fight; this is a fight."

posted by Fence at 03:13 AM on December 18, 2006

No, Bishop. I'm not here to brawl with anyone. I'm looking to understand your argument. You implied someone in that thread had an opinion that frankly I didn't see represented at all. I was attacking your argument, not you. Your argument was based on a viewpoint I didn't see anyone subscribing to. Which was why I asked. If you can't or don't want to answer, that's fine. This part of the conversation is skirting the guidelines as it is.

posted by chicobangs at 08:45 AM on December 18, 2006

urall cloolis is absoultely correct. Thomas has a history of "punk ass" behavior. The walk off at the end of the Bulls game back in the day defines his character. He deserves the largest suspension.

posted by wwarrior at 09:51 AM on December 18, 2006

this is a frustrated Knicks team. Its really been amazing that they havent been involved in a brawl before this one.

posted by sportingo at 10:00 AM on December 18, 2006

Mardy Collins didn't want his team to be more embarassed. JR Smith was going to do a ShowBoating dunk. Collins stopped him, hard flagrant and got the message across. No coach told him to do it he just did it. The nuggets players were upset which makes sense, but they phsically overreacted. Melo will get the most time suspended. Nate Rob should get some time. JR Smith should get some. Maybe..... Jared Jeffries.... but no one else. This has happened before, it just took them a while to break it up. Collins shouldn't get suspended b/c he never retaliated. I don't think they should've ejected 10. Just about 6. It doesn't matter, the punishments will be announced later today.

posted by Snikastyle at 11:06 AM on December 18, 2006

Vito are crazy or what? Did you see the replay at all? A sucker punch is something you do from behind or out of view of the person you are hitting. Or when someone isn't expecting to get hit. You need to re-watch that re-play. Collins was walking away. Melo ran in front of him and popped him while he wasn't looking. It was a cheap shot. He deserves whatever suspension the NBA gives him. I have seen plenty of fights happen at basketball games (non-NBA) so I am actually suprised this does not happen more often. Basketball is considered a "non-contact" sport, but if you ever watch the guys that play in the paint, it will make you think twice about that. Basketball is very physical and momentum is constantly swinging back and forth. When emotions run high between two highly competitive people, a confrontation is bound to happen. Next time the Nuggets should just wait for their turn to make a hard foul in retaliation instead of turning the court into a play ground. Baseball has a good "internal" policy about bean balls that is followed (you hit me, I hit you). Basketball usually has the same type of policy, but with all of the younger guys in the league these days, there are no veterans to show them how it goes.

posted by yay-yo at 11:43 AM on December 18, 2006

The NY Times is reporting that Melo has been suspended for 15 games.

posted by bperk at 11:54 AM on December 18, 2006

Here's the ESPN article on the suspensions. My only problem is that Smith got 10 games for fighting back because Robinson tackled him. He should have just let Robinson pummel him apparently.

posted by bperk at 12:08 PM on December 18, 2006

Isiah doesn't so much as get a fine for anything, despite the fact he owned up to warning/lecturing on sportsmanship (irony if there ever was) Anthony not to go into the lane late in the game. David Stern's getting harder and harder to stand up for at this point. At the rudimentary level, every brawl should be the responsibility of the coaches to have taught their players sportsmanship. Just sickening.

posted by dfleming at 12:26 PM on December 18, 2006

Alright already!! Enough is enough. When did basketball become a "ghetto" game? I mean, let's get this right. A kid straight out of high school gets $100 million dollars to play the game of basketball and he's supposed to be a role-model? Com'on now. I know, a lot of people may think that I'm talking about Lebron James but I'm just trying to make a point here since he had nothing to do with this. Most of these guys are from the "ghetto" but does that mean that they're the reason behind these acts or does handing these kids multi-millon dollar contracts suppose to make them change who they are? Not at all. I was from the "ghetto" but had a mother that cared enough about her family that she graduated college in order to make a better life for herself and her children in order to get out of the "ghetto". Does living in the "ghetto" make me a bad person? Not at all. What I'm trying to point out is that basic human instincts make people defend themselves in situations like this. If someone attacks you, what is your instincts going to tell you? DEFEND YOURSELF, that's what!!! When J.R. Smith went to dunk and was attacked (flagrant fouled), his instincts basically took over and so did his teammates. A person does not need to be a professional athlete to understand what it means to be attacked and to have to defend him or herself. They just have to be a human being to understand the magnitude of what transpired, which I do. Isiah Thomas felt that his players were being disrespected by the Denver Nuggets who were running up the score so he felt he needed to do something, which we all know by now was not a wise move. Nor was it ok for George Karl, being a friend and a fellow alum (Tar Heel) of former Knicks coach Larry Brown, to have his team run up the score to kind of 'stick it' to Isiah and the entire Knicks organization for what they did to Larry Brown. This had nothing to do with the so-called thugs playing basketball, this had more to do with one coach trying to make a statement and another coach who couldn't coach little league, let alone an NBA team. Bottom line.

posted by BornIcon at 02:16 PM on December 18, 2006


posted by BIGG DADDY at 04:15 PM on December 18, 2006

Jerseygirl, I think this is your department....

posted by tommybiden at 06:39 PM on December 18, 2006

Actually I have watched it several times. The thing I looked for the most was the interaction between Carmelo and Collins (the on who delivered the foul). If you watched the millions of replays you'll notice that he and Carmelo came nose to nose when Melo ran into the huddle of players. Melo obviously said something and Collins said something back. Collins was the one who delivered the foul to Denver's 2nd leading scorer. As Carmelo was being pushed and pulled by different people trying to bring order, you'll see the entire time he was basically trying to get to/at Collins. While Collins was calmed down he was making his way slowly toward the bench with several other people, that's when Carmelo walked up to him and punched him. Just a few things here. The only reason I originally made an NHL reference was due to this type of sticking up for your teammate behavior taking place all the time. If Smith and Collins were actually fist fighting each other in the NHL and Carmelo jumps in as the 3rd man, he only gets kicked out of that game. That's it, just an ejection. You could tell by Carmelo's actions that his intention was to get to Collins all along (until he hit him, then he ran, or he was trying to rope a dope). In the NBA we have seen a few "hard fouls" lead to some serious injuries. Sure, it's not often, but it has happened on occasion. Carmelo's actions would have been praised by his teammates, fans, coaches and anyone watching the game had this been the NHL, or even MLB. How many times have we rushed to turn OFF the TV when the benches clear in an MLB game and how many times have we called for a 15 game suspension in the NHL because a single punch was thrown. The same way I. Thomas told Melo "not to go to the basket", is possibly the same way Melo warned anyone on the floor not to try to hurt any of his teammates. You have to put yourself in his shoes, and most of us can't. This guy (Melo) was warned that somebody was gonna get hurt if they continue to WIN on the knicks home floor. He was prepped by Thomas and was just waiting for it to happen. I'm not saying it was perfect or innocent or whatever. I'm making the point that a lot of us making comments about this situation are the same people who leave an NHL game kind of down because a fight DIDN'T take place. It's a double standard and it's ridiculous. There is no dress code in the NHL/MLB. When a grown man (white or black/race doesn't matter) throws a baseball at another man's head at 90 mph we dismiss it as part of the game. When an NHL player comes to the aid of another player we call it sportsmanship. When we are dealing with NBA players, regardless of age that do the same, they are "punk ass thugs and ghetto" and should be banished from their JOBS for 15 games. Some people actually hinted that the suspensions could possibly be more harsh than usual because the altercation spilled into the "rich people seats". Who hear doesn't recall the fight between Dr. J and Larry Bird or Shaq and Barkley? Were they "punk ass thugs or ghetto"? The Pistons franchise is most famous for being the "Bad Boys". That era of the NBA invented the "no layup rule". Forget dunking on our home court while you're up by 19, back then it was don't come in the paint period. Even MJ got into a fight and threw some punches, but he had a suit on and no gold chains or braids, so he must not have been a thug. When did this double standard kick in? Probably when the players got younger and started making more money. When they started talking like Allen Iverson instead of Michael Jordan. That'd be my guess.

posted by Bishop at 06:45 PM on December 18, 2006

When did this double standard kick in? I imagine sometime long, long ago when the MLB, NHL, and NBA left the safety of their nest and took flight as full fledged independent leagues that really have nothing to do with each other. It also always interesting in these brawls when a player (in this incident Anthony) punches or lays out another guy and then promptly runs away as his teammates defend him.

posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 08:10 PM on December 18, 2006

When a grown man (white or black/race doesn't matter) throws a baseball at another man's head at 90 mph we dismiss it as part of the game. No, "we" don't. If a pitcher goes headhunting, it's NEVER dismissed as "part of the game", despite what some grizzled oldtimers might THINK was acceptable back in the day. Ever since Ray Chapman, it's NEVER been acceptable to throw at a batter's head.

posted by grum@work at 10:53 PM on December 18, 2006

When did this double standard kick in......When they started talking like Allen Iverson instead of Michael Jordan. That'd be my guess And how do Allen Iverson or Michael Jordan talk? I mean, I didn't know that if someone "spoke" like A.I. they were considered "thug", I just thought that was the way A.I. spoke. As far as MJ, are you saying that his way of speaking is the equivalence of proper English? Does anyone else besides me find this to be rather humorous? In front of the cameras, there are plenty of professional athletes that are "coached" into saying all of the right things. Things like, "we win as a team and we lose as a team" or "I just go out there and give it 110%". I'm not saying that MJ was "coached" into saying the things that he said during his brilliant career, it's just that I don't see anything wrong with the way A.I. or MJ speak, they're two different people. A.I. may not speak like "Corporate America" but he speakS his mind which a lot of people respect more so than if he was saying all of the right things just to please certain people. Like Popeye always said, "I ams what I ams". I wonder how MJ would say that?

posted by BornIcon at 08:06 AM on December 19, 2006

it was a bitch slap, not a closed-fist punch. That is why it sounded loud. Collins fell backwards because he was being pulled and there was someone on the floor behind him. He got up faster than Ali when he got clocked by Frazier! And then MarshMelo runs away and was saved from a real fight when Collins was held back right before getting to Marshmelo!

posted by bluekarma at 10:44 AM on December 19, 2006

Making a hard foul to stop a lay-up = tough Starting a fight because you got fouled "too hard" = bitch Teams that are known as tough teams don't give up lay-ups and they rebound. That's what the "bad boys" were known for. Not for fighting. If Bill Lambeer's goofy ass ever tried to fight someone he would get knocked the F out. He was known as a tough player because he wasn't afraid to throw his body around, even though he wasn't the strongest, and definately wasn't the best. The difference between "tough" and "ghetto" is the difference between taking a hard foul and walking to the free-throw line and taking a hard foul and starting a brawl. Seems pretty simple to me.

posted by yay-yo at 11:56 AM on December 19, 2006

Teams that are known as tough teams don't give up lay-ups and they rebound. "Not giving up lay-ups" is a funny way to phrase "tackling anyone who takes a lay-up."

posted by callmejay at 12:32 PM on December 19, 2006

Bill Lambeer...was known as a tough player whiny, cheap-shot-artist asshole who could play a little ball. Fixed.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 03:03 PM on December 19, 2006

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