August 01, 2006

You know, as much as I would have liked to see Clemens come to Boston yesterday... Clemens made his choice in May and he chose Houston.

posted by jerseygirl at 09:27 AM on August 01, 2006

Houston, (and Roger, I assume) had hopes of repeating last years come out of nowhere second half, but it doesn't look like it will pan out this year... Too bad, Roger is snakebit in Houston, he could have easily had another 15 wins since last season, if they would occaisionally score some runs for him, or hold a lead for him.

posted by mjkredliner at 09:33 AM on August 01, 2006

How does Clemens deserve better? I realize we Sox fans are a spoilled lot, but I'd rather lose without him.

posted by yerfatma at 10:13 AM on August 01, 2006

How is Houston out of the race, but the Dodgers are still in it? The Dodgers record is only one game better than the Astros. And does no one remember the past two season when the Astros came out of nowhere to win the Wild Card each time and last year they advanced to the World Series. So don't count Houston out, I like their chances better than the Dodgers.

posted by tim at 10:19 AM on August 01, 2006

tim, "It ain't over 'till it's over", true enough.

posted by mjkredliner at 10:37 AM on August 01, 2006

And does no one remember the past two season when the Astros came out of nowhere to win the Wild Card each time and last year they advanced to the World Series. So don't count Houston out, I like their chances better than the Dodgers. At this point last year, Houston was 9.0 games back of St. Louis for the division, but already on top of the wild card race. This year, they are 9.5 games back of St. Louis (and in 4th place), but have 8 teams ahead of them for the wild card spot, of which they are 6 games back. Barring a miraculous run from (what is currently) a sub-.500 team and the collapse of exactly half the NL teams, Houston isn't going to repeat their run for the playoffs in 2006. Even if they go .650 for the rest of the season, they'll only end up with 86 wins.

posted by grum@work at 10:59 AM on August 01, 2006

I live in Houston. We all know how involved Roger is with his kids here, and what his contract allows (not going with the team on away games). By no means is Houston out of it, but the future does look bleek. He has got it made here. Why in the hell would anyone even think about going anywhere else? His son plays in the Astros organization. He has regular access to the ballpark, his wife is very involved with the community, has her own retail store here, the rest of his boys play at a very renown and competitive baseball complex relatively close to the house which he frequents quite often. This guy has it made. The town loves him pass or fail. And.......he is winding down his career. . I think that two guys (Clemens and Mclane) made a commitment and they are sticking to it.Despite what you read from Jason Stark.

posted by Big Ed at 11:12 AM on August 01, 2006

I don't feel that the Astros owed Clemens a trade to anyone. If he wanted to pitch for Boston or any other team, he should have signed with Boston or New York and not the Astros. Houston is still in the wild-card chase and Rocket is needed there - in Houston. This race is wide-open and anyone of 8 teams can still win it. I've been a Clemens fan for 20 years, but he took the money that the Astros were waiving in front of him.......... No one forced him to take it. But, he still needs Houston's offense to give him some support - they're AWFUL when he pitches.

posted by Sportsfan0535 at 12:49 PM on August 01, 2006

Roger Clemens doesn't deserve any more than he's already got. He wanted all the perks of being paid like a top-class pitcher without all the messiness of actually being a functioning part of a team. And he got it. The Astros could have got two other much-needed pieces for a team that could have contended this year for what they're paying Rocket to show up on game days and leave the stadium the minute his last pitch hits the catcher's mitt. He's making obscene money considering he doesn't even notice there's a team around him. Who cares if they're winning or losing? Not Roger. He'll only notice that his win totals aren't going up every time he refreshes his personal homepage between innings. Pff. Whatever. To borrow a line from someone I know, I wake up a half hour earlier every day just to hate Roger Clemens more.

posted by chicobangs at 01:20 PM on August 01, 2006

. but forgets to factor in the most important thing: The Astros' offense, and team for that matter, are playing like crap or maybe he feels that the astros offense ISN'T the most important thing. I don't know, seems to me: personal happiness playing near his home, huge contract, agreement to only have to show up for games he pitches, agreement to not have to travel as much, ability to play in the same organization as his son.....all would factor in more than how the Astros are doing. He may well have expected the Astros wouldn't make it to the playoffs this year when he made his decision (it wouldn't have been a great leap) As chicobangs said...if he was a team guy, he wouldn't just show up in the clubhouse every 5th day.

posted by bdaddy at 01:27 PM on August 01, 2006

Clemons and the Astro's made their bed together, let them lay in it together for a while longer. If the Astro's are built upon catching lighting in a bottle every year they have no one to blame when they experience a drought. An arguement based upon "they did it last year" ignores the statistical reality of where they're at in the standings this year (the year that matters). I think Astro management forgot the Casey Stengel adage "Gettin' good players is easy. Gettin' 'em to play together is the hard part."

posted by skydivedad at 02:09 PM on August 01, 2006

panteeze, you think Roger never worked a day in his life? You don't last as long as he has in MLB, and still bring the heat, by being a couch potato.

posted by mjkredliner at 02:18 PM on August 01, 2006

Who is better? Maddux or Clemens? Clemens is in the Walter Johnson/Lefty Grove category of "greatest of all time" discussions. Maddux is in the Cy Young/Pete Alexander category of "inner circle hall of fame" discussions. No slight on Maddux, but he's no Clemens. The next question is where will Pedro Martinez end up? In the Clemens section or the Maddux section?

posted by grum@work at 02:27 PM on August 01, 2006

Agree with grum . . . Maddux was great in his prime, but Clemens is a once in a lifetime power pitcher. When all is said and done, he will be one of those irreplacable pitchers. There will be others, like Maddux, who have great careers, but either lack the power or the consistency of Clemens.

posted by awrigh01 at 03:15 PM on August 01, 2006

No you don't. The Clear and the Cream sure help. But Selig would much rather go after BB than this so-called hero of baseball. Evidence for Clemens using PEDs: Number of positive tests: 0 Number of "eyewitness" accounts of him using PED: 0 Number of "tell-all" books that implicate him: 0 Number of investigative journalism reports that link him to PEDs: 0 Number of disgruntled former teammates that claim he used them: 0 Number of statistical anomalies that would "prove" he used them: 0 "Book'im, Dano!"

posted by grum@work at 03:24 PM on August 01, 2006

like Maddox, who have great careers, but lack the power or the consistency of Clemens posted by awrigh01 at 3:15 PM CDT on August 1 Greg Maddox was never a "power pitcher" and never pretended to be one. As for consistency, 17 straight years of 15+ wins stands in defiance of your analogy. 15 Golden Gloves and 4 Cy Youngs. "There will be others, like Maddux" No there won't.

posted by skydivedad at 03:29 PM on August 01, 2006

I am in the Maddux camp. 17 straight seasons of 15+ wins, only 2 short of that last year, and a real shot to get there again this year? A career 3.07 ERA and over 3000 Ks. Or maybe it's just that as a Cards fan I've seen more of him, but in his prime there wasn't a pitcher that you wanted to face less. Clemens has aged better, but in their primes I think Maddux was in the class of Koufax and Gibby at their primes.

posted by edub1321 at 03:38 PM on August 01, 2006

Or maybe it's just that as a Cards fan I've seen more of him im a cards fan as well, and i really didnt like seeing them in their prime or neven now for that matter

posted by canes09 at 03:44 PM on August 01, 2006

edub, did you edit your comment after the original post, or is my reading comprehension really that poor today? Apologies just in case.

posted by Venicemenace at 03:49 PM on August 01, 2006

VM, I will agree that Martinez from 1998-2002 is in the discussion for greatest prime too, but what I meant is that both Clemens and Maddux have sustained their greatness (Clemens a little better recently than Maddux), but I think in their primes I would have liked to face Maddux less. When I look for a great pitcher, I think of both longevity and how great they were in their primes. Martinez had a great prime, so to speak, but I would like to see how his body holds up over the next 4+ years before putting him in the class of Maddux and Rocket.

posted by edub1321 at 04:05 PM on August 01, 2006

If the feeling is that certain players "deserve" to be traded to certain teams, than wouldn't it follow that Pedro Martinez deserves to be traded to Tampa Bay? He could then look at Don Zimmer every day!

posted by INOALOSER at 04:45 PM on August 01, 2006

So your idea that he wouldn't get along with the current Red Sox organization is based on....what, exactly? Maybe he misunderstood that there's a different ownership from the time Clemens left until now. Even prior to signing with Houston, Clemens was pretty positive about Boston in general.

In an interview with the pitcher during the playoffs, Clemens spoke fondly about Boston and the many friends he still has in the area. ''Here I am, still pitching," Clemens said in October. ''Debbie and I were looking forward to the day where we could just go up to my old neighborhood [Framingham] and just hang out with some of our friends up there."

posted by jerseygirl at 05:27 PM on August 01, 2006

I don't think that you can ever feel bad for a guy that is getting something like $10 million to play half a season and got to choose pretty much from whatever club could afford him. Especially when you consider all of the ridiculous perks that he is getting. As a Sox fan, however, you can always use another top-shelf starter going into the playoffs because the way it looks now they might have to go with John Lester starting in game 5 of the ALCS in Yankee Stadium. Lester is off to a great start but I think its safe to say he's no Clemens

posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 05:58 PM on August 01, 2006

or chicobangs if you want to make statistical assumptions lets pencil Clemens in for 5 wins for the season (given his 2 wins in 8 starts) and just call it a nice round $2,000,000 per win. I take it back I think the Sox should stick with guys like Lester and Papelbon and find a creative way to spend the $9.5 million change

posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 07:26 PM on August 01, 2006

Hey, I jog in the mornings too. I don't expect to get paid for it, except by being in better shape.

posted by chicobangs at 08:23 PM on August 01, 2006

My second pet peeve is with with people who don't respectfully let you have an opinion if they don't agree with you. That opinion sucks. Drop it now.

posted by grum@work at 10:23 PM on August 01, 2006

Maddux and Clemens are argueably 2 of the best, if not the 2 best pitchers of their generation. That they are even being compared to one another is wrong. They both have 2 different pitching styles. I agree that Clemens doesn't seem to realize the meaning of "team" and "Us" and "We," but he has a family like evryone else also. He gets paid enough to go on the road with the team and cheer for them, but when you are a player of his caliber, you get catered to.

posted by tbone22 at 11:14 PM on August 01, 2006

Well, it doesn't matter that he doesn't understand "Team" "We" and "Us". It is in his contract and the entire team knew it was. No one expected him to be on the road. I am not even sure the Astros got him to get them to the playoffs. I think it was for ticket sales at home games. Why else would they have not made any significant moves by trading him and getting something that they can use in the future?

posted by kidrayter2005 at 11:49 PM on August 01, 2006

Shit, even Baseball's Greatest Asshole Barry Bonds ain't afraid to put on a dress and goof off with his teammates if it helps chemistry. Actually, I believe he was just doing that for some pub before his ESPN (un) reality show hit the airwaves. ball-fetching oompa-loompas that dress like him out on the field Holy shit, that's funny. Funnier still, because I can actually see Rajah standing there, thinking to himself, "who the hell are these guys, why are they dressed just like me, and why don't their names all start with 'K'?"

posted by The_Black_Hand at 06:29 AM on August 02, 2006

mjkredliner you have amazing insight, or not, where did I ever mention Roger being a couch potato? No insight at all, thank you, I was pointing out something that any baseball fan knows, that Roger's off season training regimen, as well as his in-season training, and schedule, (not so much now, ha ha) are work. If you don't think so, then I suggest you are wrong.

posted by mjkredliner at 09:48 AM on August 02, 2006

As much as I'd like to see him in Boston, he doesnt deserve to be traded. He had Boston begging him before he signed with Houston. I'm not so sure he would even want to go...if he did he had the chance.

posted by louisville_slugger at 10:05 AM on August 02, 2006

May I ask one question, when did Jason become the mouthpiece for Clemens? I have yet to hear Clemens complain about his present situation. Seems as though he's happy with where he's at and the amount of money he's receiving. I find it amazing how sportswriters and sports commentators of today simply enjoy stirring up controversy where there really is none. Clemens made his choice a little while back, now can we leave it at that?

posted by WLC at 10:29 AM on August 02, 2006

My biggest SpoFi pet peeve is these trivial posts about ridicuously over paid atheletes and what they do or don't deserve. My second pet peeve is with with people who don't respectfully let you have an opinion if they don't agree with you. If you have a problem with FPP's about "ridicuously over paid atheletes" (sic x3), then I advise you to stick to the college sports FPPs. You managed to hit on one of the other recurring themes that drives me nuts, people complaining about how much pro athletes get paid. Welcome to a capitalist free market, panteeze. If you hate it so much, I hear President Chavez is creating a socialist utopia in Venezuela and he likes it when Americans come and visit. It's one thing to voice an opinion, another to join in a conversation saying "Who cares?" Obviously, the other people who are posting care. If you don't, move on. It just bothers me when pro athletes are accused of being selfish and overpaid, or their work ethic questioned, for having a skill and making the most of it in the marketplace. It's total hypocrisy.

posted by Venicemenace at 11:43 AM on August 02, 2006

Sorry.

posted by yerfatma at 12:50 PM on August 02, 2006

Actually, I agree with Panteeze in principle. I honestly have no idea why anyone would care what these guy's are making. Performance is but one facet of the marketplace - location, timing, relative FA strength, TV deals, ticket sales, general revenue all come into play. In fact, when you think about it, the very idea that anyone of these guys is "paid what is deserved" or "performs to a level that justifies the paycheque" is ludicrous. I'm interested in what they make as an armchair GM putting together a fantasy squad, or in a vein of thought that informs me what the possible trades and signings my team could possibly do, but I find it rather pointless to try to marry the idea of future performance in a sport to the paycheque. There are now 67 comments in this thread. You must hold yourself pretty damned high to say everyone else in here who has voiced an opinion is "trivial". I believe the suggestion is that the opinion is trivial. Not necessarily the person stating it. And only a certain percentage are putting everything in the context of how much money Rajah is making. Juuuuuuuuuust saying, is all.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:47 PM on August 02, 2006

If you have a problem with FPP's about "ridicuously over paid atheletes" (sic x3), then I advise you to stick to the college sports FPPs. You managed to hit on one of the other recurring themes that drives me nuts, people complaining about how much pro athletes get paid. Welcome to a capitalist free market, panteeze. If you hate it so much, I hear President Chavez is creating a socialist utopia in Venezuela and he likes it when Americans come and visit. It's one thing to voice an opinion, another to join in a conversation saying "Who cares?" Obviously, the other people who are posting care. If you don't, move on. It just bothers me when pro athletes are accused of being selfish and overpaid, or their work ethic questioned, for having a skill and making the most of it in the marketplace. It's total hypocrisy. Wow, I am taking a beating here. Thanks Weedy for some support. What pro atheletes make is ridiculous! I am not complaining about that at all. I am stating my opinion that I do not care what Roger does or does not deserve. More power to him for what he has done. Just curious Venicemenace, how do you excatly define a capitalist free market? Is it a market where everyone is able to compete on a level playing field? Or is it a market where lawmakers take donations to become elected and then pass legislation favoring those who helped them thus creating an unfair market? Why don't you run down to your local government and ask for some tax support to build a new stadium and start your own baseball league. I'm sure you will be welcomed with open arms. I chose long ago to forgoe major sporting events in person. Tickets are way out of line and yes, I think they are overpaid including Roger. Why are they overpaid? Because people are willing to fork over hard earned dough to either watch someone else live out their fantasy or just escape from their own miserable lives. Man there are many big egos on this post. Get a life people, its only an opinion, not life or death.

posted by panteeze at 04:49 PM on August 02, 2006

Panteeze, why do you feel the need to make it personal? Just because I disagree with you on whether or not athletes are overpaid does not (necessarily) mean I am egotistical, have no life, consider myself the ultimate authority, or think this is a "life and death" issue. We simply disagree. Can't you constrain yourself to a response on the merits and leave the vitriol out of it? To answer your question, when I reference a free market in this case, I mean that players earn what they earn because professional baseball is a multi-billion dollar industry for which they are the key laborers. They are the very best in the world at what they do and have extremely specialized skills, like other highly-paid professions: brain surgeons, say, or crack trial lawyers. Although one might like to see an inner-city school teacher making Clemens money, there is a much greater demand for Clemens' services and the market sets the price for his employment (according to the various factors Weedy described). In general, there is a limited supply of baseball talent and it is in very high demand. Therefore, baseball players make bank. I don't see that as wrong or unjust, and I disagree that municipal support of franchises makes this market somehow unfair - those deals enrich owners far more than they enrich players. Yet players always take the heat from disgruntled fans, and I think THAT'S unfair.

posted by Venicemenace at 09:45 PM on August 02, 2006

Is clemens paying stark? Is clemens surprised by the lack of support? Doesn't he remember last season? Didn't he watch most of this season? Even though part of me finds beautiful irony in the possibility that clemens might end his career in meaningless games, it is kind of sad to see him waste his last year (I'm guessing). But he made his bed. He could have easily come to boston or ny. He's never had a problem worrying about public perception before, so I doubt it had anything to do with it now. He simply has it too good in houston to give it up. You have to factor in that he throws during day 3 of his "off days" in order to keep the arm loose, plus he maintains a rigorous workout schedule that allows him to pitch so well at age 43. I think chicobangs and I are running neck and neck with our hatred of clemens, but you've got his pr position locked up grum :)

posted by justgary at 11:11 PM on August 02, 2006

His weiner?

posted by yerfatma at 08:52 AM on August 03, 2006

Because people are willing to fork over hard earned dough to either watch someone else live out their fantasy or just escape from their own miserable lives. If you seriously believe that I'm not sure why you're here.

posted by justgary at 11:40 AM on August 03, 2006