July 20, 2006

This happened like five years ago. Can we please move on to something that is actually current?Sure its tragedy but who needs to hear about it all the time?

posted by Young Mikey at 06:22 PM on July 20, 2006

I read just the headlines about him deserving the Silver Star? He deserved the Silver Star for leaving millions of dollars to die for his country. Regardless of his cause of death. LET IT GO ESPN...please

posted by sgtcookzane at 06:51 PM on July 20, 2006

This happened like two years ago, not five (first sentence in the story), and this piece, containing a more comprehensive aggregation of what happened and when thwan I've seen before, just came out. This place isn't exactly clogged with Pat Tillman posts, and while the more overtly political part of this discussion might not really have a place on Sportsfilter, this is a relevant and compelling article. I look forward to the rest of it.

posted by chicobangs at 07:05 PM on July 20, 2006

An American just put in one of the most courageous, gut-wrenching performances in the history of the Tour de France, and ESPN has Pat Tillman and Barry Bonds leading their home page. If that doesn't sum up the sorry state of sports reporting in this country, I don't know what does.

posted by dusted at 07:13 PM on July 20, 2006

I'm all in favor of friendly fire, as long as it smites those who napped their way through grade school and never learned any punctuation.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:16 PM on July 20, 2006

Yeah, it's got nothing to do with how a government used false information for the purposes of going to war, and then all other types of PR spin in maintaining the war effort. "This is going to get worse before it gets better."

posted by grum@work at 08:07 PM on July 20, 2006

Rule # 1 in war! is people get killed. Rule # 2 is you can't change rule # 1.

posted by scotsman at 08:35 PM on July 20, 2006

Actually, I thought Rule No. 1 was something about truth being the first casualty. No, under the current administration we just assume that they're lying every time they say anything, so we dumped the truth as rule one because it was being violated so often people ignored it..

posted by commander cody at 08:58 PM on July 20, 2006

"I read just the headlines about him deserving the Silver Star? He deserved the Silver Star for leaving millions of dollars to die for his country." So, what you're telling me is it's all about the money, and not about the life lost. Thanks, that changes everything. "Regardless of his cause of death. LET IT GO ESPN...please." Why? Because it pains you? ESPN did the most thorough investigation and reporting on the Tillman scandal I have yet seen or heard, and that was only Part 1. The facts indicate the Pentagon glorified Tillman's service and exploited it to recruit new enlistees. And it wasn't just Tillman they exploited, but NFL fans too. When he paid the ULTIMATE SACRIFICE, the signs indicate politics took over. There was a cover-up, the truth was hidden from his FAMILY and his service was sold as a FICTION. That is everything Pat Tillman stood against. It seems to me that some sports fans actually expect and enjoy being played for gullible fools. The Silver Star was awarded to Tillman for one reason and one reason only: he was a celebrity athlete whose name recognition, service and death was exploited as a propaganda tool. Pat Tillman deserves better than that. His memory deserves the truth. Every American deserves the truth, especially since they are bankrolling it with their income tax.

posted by the red terror at 12:48 AM on July 21, 2006

"Whatever the merits of the article, I feel like ESPN is exploiting Tillman as much as the current administration did." O-kay, let's assume for purposes of your point that ESPN is indeed exploiting Tillman's memory. Does that mean we're supposed to accept this as a moral equivalence? Or might we be dispassionate and reasonable enough to discern one party exploiting Tillman's life and death with fake phony revisionist lies that would make Stalin proud, and the other exploiting Tillman's life by trying to get at the truth? Is one exploitation exactly the same as the other? Or might there be a wee small sliver of difference? Not trying to pick a fight here, I'm just asking. Maybe it's just me, but being a sports fan has never meant leaving my brain at the door and letting others take advantage of my fandom and intelligence. Even professional wrestling fans know a "mark" when they see one.

posted by the red terror at 01:13 AM on July 21, 2006

But it's not like you're managing the thread or anything.

posted by yerfatma at 06:19 AM on July 21, 2006

Sometimes our government misleads us for good reason. Like it or not, there is some information that simply cannot be public knowledge. I don't have a problem with that. I do, however, have a problem if they lie to us out of convenience rather than neccessity. I have great respect for the choices Pat Tillman made. I know that fratricide has been a problem for as long as there's been armed combat. The numbers are said to be much lower today than they used to be, but it still happens. It pisses me off that they lied to us about this case because it involved a high profile death and it was an embarrassment for them. I understand the desire to paint any situation in the best possible light, especially when its effect on morale can be extremely important, but that doesn't justify making things up out of whole cloth. The facts are that Cpl. Tillman was involved in a firefight with the enemy, that he chose to leave good cover to aid a fellow soldier, and that he paid the ultimate price for it. Does it make his actions any less heroic because his fellow soldiers mistook him for the enemy? He died trying to help another member of his unit. Where the fire was coming from has no bearing on the heroism of his act. The friendly fire angle of this would have given the war effort a bit of a black eye, but a truthful telling of Tillman's actions could have blunted that quite a bit. On the other hand, this cover up attempt is going to be a bigger, and longer lasting black eye, and blunting the effects is no more than a pipe dream.

posted by ctal1999 at 08:51 AM on July 21, 2006

Kauzlarich sounds like a gem. He completely botches the investigation -- intentionally, then cannot even comprehend why the Tillman family would be unhappy about it. He makes it even worse by blaming their reluctance to just be happy with the silver star and keep their mouths shut with them being atheists, which they aren't. Kauzlarich: [T]hese people have a hard time letting it go. It may be because of their religious beliefs." Tillman's Mom: "Oh, it has nothing to do with the fact that this whole thing is shady," she said sarcastically, "But it is because we are not Christians."

posted by bperk at 10:00 AM on July 21, 2006

Red Terror is speaking the truth... why are the rest of you criticising Pat Tillman for what he did and ESPN for getting the facts. Tillman is the greatest hero that could ever be associated with sports. You people are Lowlifes.

posted by tim at 10:41 AM on July 21, 2006

Knew this was going to be redterror before I even opened it. Dude loves Pat Tillman.

posted by DudeDykstra at 11:52 AM on July 21, 2006

I'd like to add that many athletes besides have served their countries as well. The fact that they didn't die doing so doesn't make them any less heroic.

posted by bperk at 12:20 PM on July 21, 2006

Dude loves Pat Tillman. posted by DudeDykstra at 11:52 AM CDT on July 21 Is that like "Sloth love Chunk"?

posted by SummersEve at 12:23 PM on July 21, 2006

Pat Tillman's story is one of bravery and patriotism. By all accounts, he was gifted in many ways, and marched to a different drummer than certainly most of America does, however, what he did was not unprecedented. Pat was intelligent enough to know the inherent risks of his decision to join, not just the Army, but one of their most elite fighting units, The Rangers. And, the last decision he made was to try to help a fellow soldier, in a firefight. To me, that is worthy of The Silver Star. (sgtcookzane, get a clue, please.) Every war this country has ever fought has been foisted upon those who would not fight by those who would, by means of "false information", or, propoganda, if you will. Every administration tells lies, this is not something the Bush Administation invented, commander cody, or shall we hearken back to the good ol' days of William Jefferson Clinton? For those of you who think that the Iraq war has not served a purpose, I ask, when was the last terrorist attack that occurred on American soil? I certainly haven't seen any more fuckin' jets flying into buildings lately. Pat Tillman realized that Freedom is not free, many Americans would do well to realize the same.

posted by mjkredliner at 01:59 PM on July 21, 2006

Chico like candy?

posted by cobra! at 02:04 PM on July 21, 2006

somtimes our government misleads us for good reason I would like to know when this administration has not misled the American people. This is just one more case of the PR machine trying to sell patriotism like a personal hygene product. I think what ESPN is doing is very nobel. It would be much easier for them to stick to the sports. I don't see anyone else who wants to do this story However, before we make to big a hero out of Pat Tillman, lets remember he is only one of more than five thousand who have died in this bullshit war. They were just as important to the people who loved them as Pat Tillman was to the people who loved him.

posted by CB900 at 02:16 PM on July 21, 2006

mjk, let me get this straight, if you're rich and risk your life, it's braver than if you're poor? When rich and or famous people die in battle, they automatically deserve consideration for the Silver Star? I suppose you also believe that you should get an olympic gold medal if you try really hard... I served, and I don't mean to denigrate Tillman's death, but saying that he was deserving of a Silver Star for his actions devalues every other Star out there. But the act of heroism that got Kerry his Bronze Star was saving an Army soldier from certain death, putting his own life on the line. The soldier he saved, Jim Rassmann, is a registered Republican. But he supports John Kerry. He says "Next thing I knew, John came out in the middle of all this," Rassmann says. "I couldn't believe it. He was going to get killed. He ran to the edge, reached over with his good arm and pulled me over the lip." Rassman says he recommended Kerry for the Silver Star and was disappointed when he only received a Bronze Star with a "V" for valor, the Detroit News reports. Not to be political about it, but showing that similar acts even by the well to-do have only rated a Bronze Star.

posted by LostInDaJungle at 02:40 PM on July 21, 2006

I think you see the best in people. I think you may often be disappointed. ESPN's part of a public company. Actually I am a world class cynic. Yes ESPN is a public company, but what is the real upside of doing this story. As you can see from some of the posts, some people feel ESPN should shut up and stick to the scores. Others are saying that ESPN is the only one reporting on this. That means someone does not want this story told. Im sure that reporting the facts of this lie and cover up will not win Mr. Fish any friends in the West Wing. What I think is sad is that it has become so rare for the rich and famous to do their part in war, that some think they should get a medal just for showing up.

posted by CB900 at 03:25 PM on July 21, 2006

these soldiers are so gung-ho they get trained and all they want to do is kill That's not a soldier, or an airman, or a sailor, or a marine. That's a psychopath, and we do our best to keep them out of the service. But thanks for posting something so fucking stupid that I'll never have to worry about taking anything you say seriously again.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 03:46 PM on July 21, 2006

For those of you who think that the Iraq war has not served a purpose, I ask, when was the last terrorist attack that occurred on American soil? Can you please tell me when we had a terrorist attack on American soil that was orchestrated by Iraq? Otherwise, I'm pretty sure the two points are not related in any way.

posted by grum@work at 04:00 PM on July 21, 2006

For those of you who think that the Iraq war has not served a purpose, I ask, when was the last terrorist attack that occurred on American soil? I thought the kool-aid was wearing off. Guess not.

posted by garfield at 04:13 PM on July 21, 2006

I know, especially when you consider that the Boy Band invasion was in the late 90s. If that's not terrorism, I don't know what is. Nobody saved us from Backstreet Boys!

posted by jerseygirl at 04:28 PM on July 21, 2006

For those of you who think that the Iraq war has not served a purpose, I ask, when was the last terrorist attack that occurred on American soil. You need to stop watching FOX News and start thinking for yourself. As grum said, Iraq had nothing to do with the attack. Whats being done with the Tillmam story is just more of the same bullshit that has fed the the American people for the past five years. Put down the sports page, turn off the tv and do a little reading about the history of the region over the past twenty six years.

posted by CB900 at 04:43 PM on July 21, 2006

I would remind you that the "Iraq War" has two fronts, one being in AFGHANISTAN, No it doesn't. I bet you listened to Newt Gingrich's rant about World War III today, didn't you? Mumbai! London! Iraq! Afghanistan! Nairobi! WTC! Oklahoma City...er, no, wait, forget that one. It's all connected!

posted by lil_brown_bat at 05:02 PM on July 21, 2006

I vote not...unless you're hitting republicans.

posted by commander cody at 05:18 PM on July 21, 2006

Every administration tells lies, this is not something the Bush Administation invented, commander cody, or shall we hearken back to the good ol' days of William Jefferson Clinton? He lied about getting a bj from a young women not his wife. Hell I would too (glad my wife doesn't read this) and besides not only is it no one else business if he cheated on his wife but no one died because of his lie. Bushy can't say that.

posted by commander cody at 05:22 PM on July 21, 2006

Ted Williams' service for his country in two wars makes Pat Tillman look like a draft dodger in comparison. Except that Tillman volunteered to go, while Ted Williams had no choice in the matter. Williams certainly did try to get out of his second tour of duty. This reminds me of all those claims that ballplayers aren't as loyal to their teams anymore. Staying with your team when you have no choice is not loyalty.

posted by spira at 06:30 PM on July 21, 2006

f ESPN is doing a decent job, I see no reason to deride them for going outside their comfort zone. Weedy and CB900, fair enough. I'm just so done with ESPN and their approach in the last few years (TO and Bonds all the time and bs entertainment shows; we'll tell you what you want to watch) that I'm blinded to it.

posted by yerfatma at 06:41 PM on July 21, 2006

Fantastic: "your wife" comments now along with claims that the Taliban is doing business Iraq (fully one large country and two major moutain ranges away)? This thread turned out great, don't you think? I deserve some of the blame here, but maybe we should all agree never to bring politics into another SpoFi thread. What's the point? Clearly some of us here belong on MeFi, and others of us belong on LGF, and never the twain shall meet. Let's just agree (again) to keep this bullcrap out here. I don't go to MeFi to read about sports (unless Matteo is posting about the Azzuri), and I don't think anyone comes here to read about international relations and geopolitics.

posted by psmealey at 08:08 PM on July 21, 2006

I would remind you that the "Iraq War" has two fronts, one being in AFGHANISTAN I respect anyone's right to a neocon viewpoint - but this statement is just idiotic.

posted by Venicemenace at 08:31 PM on July 21, 2006

How Republican of you mjk, go right to name calling. I will not lower myself to that. First off Bill Clinton has been out of office for five and a half years. The war in Iraq is all the doing of George Bush. Even if the whole list you named had been proven, it did not result in the death of more than five thousand Americans and God knows how many Iraqis. The reason I said to look at the last twenty six years is because its the events from the first Gulf war on that led to the attackes of 9/11. However that is not what this is about. This is about the shameful way the name and memory of Pat Tillman is being used. Whats worse is that his family is being lied to to make the story fit. If Pat Tillman is half the man people say he was, Im sure he would not want a medal he did not earn. It would seem to me that Pat Tillman did what he did because he felt a deep duty to his country. Not because he thought of himself as a hero. Sad that his memory and name have just become more grist for the George Bush bullshit machine.

posted by CB900 at 09:14 PM on July 21, 2006

Oh...and what CB900 just said......

posted by commander cody at 09:15 PM on July 21, 2006

I served my country willingly and with pride. It's an ugly business, war. Take Pat Tillman, the ex-Arizona Cardinal football player who volunteered for Ranger service and was killed in Afghanistan. His burial ceremony became a national TV spectacle extolling patriotic sacrifice (for others, of course) and a subtle defense of the Iraq war. President Bush even paid a political visit to Sun Devil Stadium, the Cardinals’ home field, during the 2004 election campaign, ostensibly to honor Tillman. The trouble, as everyone now knows, is that Pat Tillman was killed by "friendly fire." The Pentagon finally confessed (remember the fiction they concocted about that female soldier from rural West Virginia and her "heroism"?) Its flacks had staged it all. As Dave Zirin (www. edgeofsports.com), one of the countries finest sportswriters, wrote at the time: Tillman, a sincere patriot, "had joined the Rangers for ideals like freedom and justice, but fought in a war for oil and empire." He added, "the final injustice was that in death, even more than in life, he was a pawn in their game." Daily, American and Iraqis are killed and wounded in a war that most Americans (or so report all polls) no longer support or even understand, yet where they (and most mass media) blink at our government’s fabrications. Most Americans prefer, in Neil Postman’s wonderfully descriptive phrase, to amuse themselves to death and thus ignore the daily tragedies occurring in a faraway place to someone else’s child or spouse. Thank Goodness most Americans can distinguish between Real Love of Country vs the Jingoistic nonsense that Empowered Politicians and Government Hacks call "Patriotism". This thread is so full of nonsensical logic as to border on hilarity.

posted by skydivedad at 09:52 PM on July 21, 2006

Grum, all I meant was that there are certain things that shouldn't be public knowledge. For example, if a reporter had gotten wind of the D-Day invasion and started asking questions of high ranking government officials, I'd sure as hell hope they'd have lied through their teeth. Once in awhile, stuff like that happens, and you're darned right that they should lie to the general public when it does because, especially in the era of 24 hour cable news, you know that there are people tuned in who we don't want to have that kind of info. That doesn't mean that they don't take the secrecy and cover ups WAY too far, just that sometimes it's necessary.

posted by ctal1999 at 10:10 PM on July 21, 2006

The Brits made a great movie about that after the war. Can't remember the title right off the top of my head, but very well done and true.

posted by commander cody at 10:29 PM on July 21, 2006

Found it. The film was "The man who never was" and was about Operation Mincemeat. The plan to convince the Germans that the invasion would be in Greece.

posted by commander cody at 10:38 PM on July 21, 2006

Excellent film!

posted by commander cody at 10:43 PM on July 21, 2006

There is a big difference between withholding information about a future battle plan so that it doesn't pass into enemy hands, and lying after the fact about a battle and how American service men/women were killed by friendly fire. Also a big difference between withholding secret plans and cherry-picking intel to make a phony case for a war in Iraq, spying on Americans and trying to demonize anyone who objects to these tactics. Bush has demeaned himself and almost destroyed our nations reputation. The things he has done are unforgivable.

posted by commander cody at 11:03 PM on July 21, 2006

Yea commandercody, but isn't it nice he has restored diginity to the White House?

posted by CB900 at 11:33 PM on July 21, 2006

Actually CB900 I think he's just more discreet. After all he always takes Condi Rice everywhere he goes and rumors have been going on about those two for several years now. Though I would hope she had better taste!

posted by commander cody at 11:43 PM on July 21, 2006

I wonder if my wife would spend that much if she thought she could prove I got one somewhere else? Hmmm...actually she'd just dump me and use the money to move to Tahiti.

posted by commander cody at 11:53 PM on July 21, 2006

Grum, did you read my original comment in full? I pointed out that sometimes it's necessary for the government to mislead the general public. You took issue with the statement even though I said later in the comment that they often go way overboard with it and that spin like we got out of the Tillman incident really pisses me off. I figured that you misunderstood, so I gave an example of when the government should lie to the public in my next comment, and I followed it up by saying that they take secrecy and cover ups way too far. Where in that sequence do you come up with the idea that I don't think there's a big difference between divulging a battle plan and lying about a friendly fire incident? That was my whole point. There ARE things they should lie about. The question is where you draw the line, and I'm not very damned happy when they pull shit like they did with the Tillman story. Sorry if I wasn't clear before, but I think we're actually on the same page.

posted by ctal1999 at 12:57 AM on July 22, 2006

This administration has taken the practice of witholding information and lying and turned it into an art form. Whats worse is that the repugnant little shit bag has classified all information for national security reasons, for seventy five years. Who in the fuck does this man think he is to say for our own good we can't know what he has been doing.

posted by CB900 at 10:58 AM on July 22, 2006

Red Terror is speaking the truth... why are the rest of you criticising Pat Tillman for what he did and ESPN for getting the facts. Tillman is the greatest hero that could ever be associated with sports. You people are Lowlifes. I give you Bob Kalsu, that was the first man to come to mind for me. However, take a history lesson or two, many Canadian and American, British, and i'm sure dozens of other countries have had atheletes fight and die in a war. Don't get me wrong, I have the utmost admiration and respect for what Mr. Tillman did and sacrificies he and his family made, but what makes HIS death any more important or HEROIC than the death of approximately THREE THOUSAND other allied personnel in this war?

posted by tommybiden at 12:41 PM on July 22, 2006

Here's the funny (sad) thing about how things work in the US. Tillman gets killed, and the offical story turns out to be essentially fabricated, and some people suggest that maybe we should look into it. It gets looked into, but - because the wheels of justice are slow - it takes a long time. So, once the truth is finally out, those who totally exploited this guys death can say "why are we still talking about this? It was years ago."

posted by Adept at 01:45 PM on July 22, 2006

tommytrump, one request: when you quote people (which I think you were doing with the bold text), can you put a line break between the quotation and you or some quotation marks around the quote? It's just hard to parse. Thanks.

posted by yerfatma at 02:53 PM on July 22, 2006

Yerfatma, yes, I will try to do that. I'm fairly geeky with the 'puter, but will do my best. Thanks for the advice. Sorry Commander.

posted by tommybiden at 04:18 PM on July 22, 2006

I find it funny. Bush and his asshole side kick run around to baseball games and football games and NASCAR races and talk about how these people are their base. Somehow I just don't feel the love here boys and girls. Back in 2000 I said that if the only two names on the ballot were George Bush and Satan I would have to think long and hard about who to vote for. Turns out they are one in the same. Remember this is an election year. We can castrate the little shit bag by taking away congress. I know I digress from the Pat Tillman story. But I am thinking about all of the young people who have and will die in this God forsaken act of vanity and greed. I am so sick of hearing people say if you don't support the war you don't support our troops. How better to support the troops then to bring them home where they are safe.

posted by CB900 at 05:24 PM on July 22, 2006

Thanks wingnut. As one of the many who support the troops, but not the mission, it's nice to see where I can show it.

posted by commander cody at 09:58 PM on July 22, 2006

wingnut4life Oh yeah, rest in peace, Pat. Whatever really did happen over there, you're still a hero in my book. & At least, the Tillamn probe isn't gettting swept under the rug Those two statements pretty well sum up my feelings as well. CB900 How Republican of you mjk, go right to name calling, I will not lower myself to that. And how Democratic of you,CB, to infer that I let FOX News and mass media do my thinking for me, and to continue name calling, ie: 'repugnant little shit bag' 'asshole little sidekick' etc., etc. CB900 Remember this is an election year, we can castrate the little shit bag by taking away Congress. By that, I assume you mean by voting Democratic nominees into Republican held Congressional seats. That is certainly the best way to counter any unhappiness you and others may have with the current Administration. Good luck this fall, may the best men win. commander cody I want to see Bush stand trial for murder and crimes against humanity. It won't happen, but a man can dream. Just go right on dreaming, commander, but, as near as I can tell, the only 'leader' that will be facing those charges in an International Court are Saddam Hussein, for crimes against HIS OWN PEOPLE, and, whom, I suggest is a much closer candidate to be compared to being as "one in the same as Satan", CB900. Current DOD figures for the number of troops in Afghanistan: >18,000 . Details of our last agreement with Afghanistan can be found here, A fairly liberal viewpoint, I might add. DOD says on their website that our troops in Afghanistan are also " hunting remnants of The Taliban who are waging an insurgency against Afghan and foreign troops." psmealy Fantastic. "Your wife" comments along with claims that the Taliban is doing business in Iraq. I only agreed with commander cody's statement that he was glad his wife didn't read this, because of his assertion that he would "lie about getting a bj from a young woman not his wife". psmealy, I say, if you do enough research, that you will find that there is plenty of credible information suggesting that Iraq and The Taliban had safe haven and non-reciprocal aggression agreements, and that, without an American attack on Iraq, Baghdads links to terror would only have increased. Thank you all, have a nice day, and yes, God Bless America.

posted by mjkredliner at 12:10 PM on July 24, 2006

I'll cede you the "your wife" comment. I went back later and read the original comment in the thread, so it wasn't out of left field. if you do enough research, that you will find that there is plenty of credible information suggesting that Iraq and The Taliban had safe haven and non-reciprocal aggression agreements And I'm supposed to take your word for it that this information exists, merely because you say so? If you are going to make that kind of claim (sketchy at best, that religious absolutists like the Taliban would climb into bed with secular thug like Saddam, one of Osama Bin Laden's sworn enemies), then please furnish at least one (but hopefully several) citiations so that we may all be enlightened.

posted by psmealey at 12:34 PM on July 24, 2006

MJ, beyond saying this I'm not going to bother to respond to your allegations. You've obviously drank the koolaid of the rightwing to the dregs. Nothing I or any other rational person could say will cure you, so why bother.

posted by commander cody at 03:45 PM on July 24, 2006

And, you, commander, have drunk from the well of stupidity 'till it runneth dry. I would like to note that the personal affronts in this discussion were not started by myself, not that they bother me, but just as a point. What allegations are you referring to, Commander? The facts in the report of the Independent Counsel as presented to The House and The Senate, triggering the first formal impeachment hearings since Watergate? CB900, I will respond to your facts in the same numerical order as you presented them: 1. Not true. 2. Kinda sorta true. However, they were defending their homeland from communist aggression, they are not the only people in a like position that we as a country gave aid to. 3. Then why did they not do it? 4. We were there for for reasons that only a fool would not deem correct. When operatives of The Taliban hijacked jet airplanes and used them as WMD on Sacred American Soil, killing innocent civilians, they, and anyone who remotely conspired with them, made themselves the sworn enemy of myself and millions of other Americans. Why does not mentioning Osama Bin Laden render the whole reason for going to war meaningless? Osama will be caught, but until such time as we may find the snake in the grass, DOD and the Bush Administration have found it quite useful to carry on surveillance and interdiction efforts against other terrorist threats and operatives in the region. Only a fool would say that Bush knowingly told lies about 'going to war'. You don't think they could forsee what the left and the media has turned this into? That no one at The White House would have been able to figure this out? This is aside from all the evidence and claims that Iraq's WMD were moved to Syria. Do you know of some grand, opulent lifestyle that George Sr. is living? Or what ever else he and W. may be doing with all these funds that you think they are salting away? Halliburton does not have ALL the no bid contracts. And, Halliburton is not the first company to hire former high-ranking military officers (read Cheny) in an effort to gain a larger number of federal contracts, this is done quite extensively, by Democrats and Republicans alike. I don't think George W. Bush thinks the US public is stupid, no one in their right mind would think so. War is a terrible thing, I hope we can all agree on that. I should not have entered into what was already a political discussion, and I plead mea maxima culpa for my part in making this thread political. But, given the topic, it was almost inevitable that this would occur. We can find enough to disagree about in the world of sports, and we may even occaisonally agree on some things! So, my sincere apologies to those that I have offended, and, I look forward to your next posts, Commander, CB, and psmealy.

posted by mjkredliner at 12:03 PM on July 25, 2006

No, my claim was that it was inevitable that the discussion would turn political regarding the nature of the thread, ie: Pat Tillman's death. And, it had, well before I entered the fray. So, throw out your fraudulent claim, pal. My sacred cow is named Bessie, and although she has refused to give milk in quite a while, we still treat 'er like family. I make no attempts to appear above the fray, but rather, I jump right in the middle of ennething I figger ain't quite to mah likin' reeegardin' the Bush presidency, so , yeah, ah reckon I is jes' lahk one of them there brook trouts, and if ya keep on throwin' trash in the pond, I'll keep on arisin'.

posted by mjkredliner at 05:58 AM on July 26, 2006