January 11, 2010

drudgesiren.gif

posted by Mookieproof at 03:29 PM on January 11, 2010

Didn't see that one coming...not that he took steriods but that he finally admitted to using steriods.

At least now he can move on somewhat.

posted by BornIcon at 03:43 PM on January 11, 2010

As someone just posted on Twitter, "In other news, Jackie Mason just admitted to being Jewish".

posted by Drood at 04:04 PM on January 11, 2010

I hate anything that makes Canseco look like he was telling the truth all along. I can't handle that truth.

posted by smithnyiu at 04:23 PM on January 11, 2010

So can all you baseball experts tell me what the rule is that covers setting records while using a performance enhancing drug? Does it stand with an * or does it get erased?

Absolutely nothing happens to those records.

There has never been an * on any record, and they've never retroactively removed any records or stats for any player. To do so would open up a Pandora's box.

For example: it is now known that Pete Rose bet on games where he was managing. Even though the integrity of the game has been compromised, MLB has done nothing to alter the results of the game (or stats).

If you start hacking away at the PED-tainted records, how far back do you go? 1990? 1980? What about the players that used drugs in the 1970s (like "greenies")? Do their records get slashed?

posted by grum@work at 05:00 PM on January 11, 2010

All those damn home titles...all of them after Aaron...

And Maris.

Looking back, I wish I had never played during the steroid era."

I, for one, would like to see what his numbers would have been during the dead ball era. Wonder which era he woulda rather played in.

posted by mjkredliner at 05:04 PM on January 11, 2010

I thought Aaron was hopped up on amphetamines, or "greenies", as were players like Maris and Mantle.

*

posted by hincandenza at 05:39 PM on January 11, 2010

I'm glad McGwire owned up to using steroids, but it's hard to ignore how long it took him to do it. The hitting coach job and this admission look like a PR campaign to improve his chances of Hall of Fame induction.

I was curious what Roger Maris' family might think of all this, given the fact that they were gracious enough to be there in person when McGwire broke the record. They've gone back to treating Maris as the record holder.

posted by rcade at 06:02 PM on January 11, 2010

Kind of like my Milli Vanilli infatuation...once the dirty secrets were revealed it was all over.

I, for one, didn't much care for Rob & Fab - I just liked the tunes. Just as I, for one, was never a Big Mac fan, but I sure liked watching him swing the bat.

Great baseball is great baseball. There have always been players who were dirty - many in Cooperstown. Pitchers who threw spitters and scuff balls, batters who took greenies and amphetamines... I still think the fact that both pitchers and hitters alike were taking steroids at the same time should cancel each other out... But at the end of the day, it's a game that was more enjoyable to watch than ever during the McGuire and Sosa hit parade days.

Oh, and btw - if McGuire played in any other era, he'd be broke, and sore, and jobless.

posted by MW12 at 07:25 PM on January 11, 2010

Mark McGwire is the reason that I am both a baseball fan and a Cardinals fan. In 1998, my family went to two baseball games, one in Chicago at Wrigley, one in St. Louis. In St. Louis, the Cards beat the Cubs on the strength of a McGwire home run, and that's where it all began in the mind of this little 8 year old.

Since then, it's been a roller-coaster ride to watch, but I never truly stopped being a McGwire fan, even through all the steriod business. I was stoked when the Cardinals signed him on as the hitting coach this year. And I'm glad he made the decision to say this now. I don't know if it will be enough to get him into the Hall, but I will hope for it.

posted by boredom_08 at 08:39 PM on January 11, 2010

I've simply lost all ability to be outraged about anything steroid-related at this point. McGwire now moves from the "we all seem pretty sure even though he won't say it" category to the "admitted his transgression" one, and he doesn't seem to be making a bunch of excuses or pretending he didn't do anything wrong. So I'll support him and wish him well. Whatever it does for his HoF candidacy is in someone else's hands, anyway.

posted by TheQatarian at 08:48 PM on January 11, 2010

I just watched the video in this link. It has made me realize one thing, Brian Williams is a complete A**hole. His opening line about ow McGwire has stopped lying is a bunch of crap. McGwire never said he didn't take steroids or HGH. It is the Media like tis example that can now leave this alone. Had it not been for them the McGwire thing most likely would not have dragged on as long as it did. Fifty bucks says Williams was cheering both Sosa and McGwire on the whole time in 1998. After all, who would get the credit for saving baseball according to the same media outlets that trash them now.

Am i glad he came out and admitted it, yes. Only for the fact that maybe now he can get his well deserved induction in to the hall. That way he can be where all the other great baseball players that cheated, drank and did drugs are too.

One more thing, Coach McGwire, please leave Alberts swing alone!

posted by jojomfd1 at 10:26 PM on January 11, 2010

if the HOF voters do not vote McGwire in then they should not vote Barroid Bonds in either.

posted by twgibsr at 10:34 PM on January 11, 2010

(I was joking about the Milli Vanilli infatuation)

posted by dviking at 11:05 PM on January 11, 2010

(I was joking about the Milli Vanilli infatuation)

It's okay. We won't judge you.

*snicker*

posted by grum@work at 11:32 PM on January 11, 2010

(I was joking about the Milli Vanilli infatuation)

Brian Williams wishes you would stop lying.

posted by THX-1138 at 11:55 PM on January 11, 2010

Does this also mean that Todd McFarlane is *officially* an dumbass?

posted by Punkrockrat at 02:20 AM on January 12, 2010

Has anyone ever researched to find out how many "game winners" were dinged by these guys? Would be interesting to see that stat..

posted by wildbill1 at 07:01 AM on January 12, 2010

McGwire's admission of steroid use, complete with a live TV interview with Bob Costas last night on the MLB Network, is being managed by former White House press secretary Ari Fleischer's crisis communications company.

Dude really, really wants to be in the Hall.

posted by rcade at 07:59 AM on January 12, 2010

It was great theater, no doubt, watching Mac and Sosa. I was in Cabo San Lucas at a hotel bar watching #70. Loved it just like a great drama. Unfortunately, that's all it was, acting. Juiced just like make-up for the scene. However actors get to wipe off the face of their character and go back to their real life. Mac and the others had to hide in bathrooms and continue their ploy to be someone they were not. It was fun but now it is sad, knowing their deception and their lies. And for McGwire to now still say he would have hit every home run without the juice is total denial even in his "truth." The show is over at least come "clean." Is anyone else a bit amazed these pock marked asses can't even tell the "real" truth when they supposedly try to? Pathetic.

posted by gfinsf at 08:51 AM on January 12, 2010

Now that M.M. has come clean, I wonder how long it will take for Sosa,Bonds and others to also tell the truth.

I don't know about Sosa but Bonds has no out here. If he admits to using steroids then he'll be going to jail for purjury and he's not going to do that. He'll most likely be taking what he did or "if" he did anything at all to the grave with him.

posted by BornIcon at 09:26 AM on January 12, 2010

Looking at some of his rookie cards, McGwire doesn't have a build I'd associate with power hitting.

posted by rcade at 11:09 AM on January 12, 2010

Either that or he juiced from day one. Steroids were abused by athletes when I was in middle school and high school in the mid-'80s.

posted by rcade at 11:26 AM on January 12, 2010

Something inside of me wants to believe that these athletes were either naive or desperate just to stay healthy for an entire season and were told that steriods would be able to help them stay in the game longer than they would without taking steriods...or maybe I'm the one that's being naive.

posted by BornIcon at 11:52 AM on January 12, 2010

In hindsight, Bash Brothers turned out to be a pretty good name for these two. They've taken their share.

posted by mjkredliner at 01:02 PM on January 12, 2010

I'm confused.

1. Holden said that McGwire "likely would have been a prodigious home run hitter due to his build in any event."

2. I said, "Looking at some of his rookie cards, McGwire doesn't have a build I'd associate with power hitting."

That's all I meant to say about his build as a rookie. When he came up, he did not look like someone who was going to be a prodigious home run hitter. The assumption that he was built like one, with or without steroids, seems dubious to me.

How certain is anybody that his first season is legit?

posted by rcade at 01:11 PM on January 12, 2010

1. Holden said that McGwire "likely would have been a prodigious home run hitter due to his build in any event."

Irrespective of the amount of muscle, McGwire did have the build (6' 5") and the swing for home runs regardless of adding bulk (which he obviously did later in his career). Yes, there are tall beanpoles who never develop home run power, but I can almost guarantee you that scouts were looking at McGwire in the mid-80's and projecting huge power development as he aged and got more experience.

posted by holden at 01:34 PM on January 12, 2010

Ken Griffey Jr. isn't exactly huge and he hit over 600 homeruns. Big build does not equal more homeruns. IMHO having fluid batting mechanics and a good eye are more of an asset to hitting homeruns than pure muscle mass is.

posted by HATER 187 at 01:45 PM on January 12, 2010

You still give McGwire benefit of the doubt, after everything he just admitted?

No, I just cannot simply agree with anyone that assumes that he was on any type of PED's from the start of his career because he admitted to taking steriods thru-out the 1990's. Just because he finally admitted that he was on steriods when he broke Roger Maris' HR record, now you're going to question his entire career?

Sorry, but I won't do that because we don't know that for a fact. We could also do the same for most players that are on the list, can't we?

posted by BornIcon at 02:00 PM on January 12, 2010

If you wish to view him that way that's fine but I just won't do that. I know people who are strung out on drugs but they weren't always like that. It was a choice that was made later on in their lives just as McGwire chose to take steriods in the latter stages of his career.

What I believe about Donaghy isn't the same as what I believe about McGwire since they're two seperate instances and have to be viewed differently.

posted by BornIcon at 02:39 PM on January 12, 2010

the connection between any effect of steroids and his on base percentage is probably more tenuous than the relation between steroids and his home run power.

It's all connected, and all due to steroid-induced strength and power hitting. He was walked so much because of his power.

Watching the ESPN reports earlier today, T.J. Quinn tells of the reports of how sick McGwire's use of various PEDs evidently was. He apparently used so many types of substances in various combinations, and was open with many individuals about doing it and what he planned to achieve through their use.

McGwire's admissions, coming now, are ridiculous. He avoided it all until he needed to try to worm his way back into baseball's good graces. Now that he has admitted his transgressions, eliminate all his stats/records.

posted by dyams at 04:40 PM on January 12, 2010

Amazing.

The guy gets pilloried for five years after rightfully telling Congress to go fuck themselves (okay, not in so many words, but that's what he meant), and then when he does come clean, he gets burned at the stake.

What the hell do you people want?

posted by wfrazerjr at 05:15 PM on January 12, 2010

This is neither here nor there, but I remember seeing McGwire in 1988 in Milwaukee and being impressed by how big he was, like he could have been a tight end. It's in the eye of the beholder, I guess, because when I see that beautifully wood-paneled rookie card, the kid looks big.

posted by cl at 05:39 PM on January 12, 2010

When he came up, he did not look like someone who was going to be a prodigious home run hitter. The assumption that he was built like one, with or without steroids, seems dubious to me.

Except, of course, he was one.

I mean, he led the league in home runs that first year, the year you said that he didn't look like a prodigious home run hitter.

His "skinny" version hit 49 home runs.

Are you actually denying that he couldn't be a home run hitter?

Or are you suggesting his skinny rookie version of himself was also on steroids, but those roids didn't actually affect his muscles?

McGwire in 1987, the year he hit 49 home runs.

posted by grum@work at 06:08 PM on January 12, 2010

Out of curiosity, why do you feel he owes you that?

I didn't say he owed me anything. I said it would be nice.

He says he did a terrible thing, he wishes he'd never played in that era and he appears to want to restore his good name. If all of those things are true, a full accounting would help -- at least with me. Otherwise, the carefully worded admissions just seem like a PR strategy.

Hell, do you think he's in a better situation today than he was yesterday morning?

Absolutely. A lot of people are expressing anger with him, in and out of the media, but that will fade over time. I'll bet he's already got Cardinal Nation back in his corner.

It's been good.

The steroid era is shit for baseball. They're lucky any of us still love the game.

posted by rcade at 06:13 PM on January 12, 2010

What does "while you enjoyed the games yourself knowing what you knew" mean? I didn't know they were all juicing like crazy. I bought McGwire's Androstenedione explanation hook, line and sinker. If I had known that he and Sosa were going for Maris' record with chemical help, that would've taken all the fun right out of it.

Do you think they're weren't people telling him, "Everyone does it, it's not illegal and it will make you a better player and make you money?"

I don't know. Maybe he should tell us, but you seem to be against disclosure.

posted by rcade at 06:22 PM on January 12, 2010

A full accounting of everything he did, who he got it from, and what it did to him would be pretty nice.

rcade -- could you give a full accounting of all of the prescription drugs you took since 1989 and where you got them? I doubt it (and if you could, bully for you). McGwire I am sure was not keeping a journal of what he took, who he got it from, etc. dating back over 20 years ago. Perhaps the illicit nature of what he was doing seared it in his memory, but you are basically asking for something that most of the population in a similar position would not be able to recall. As far as him coming clean as to "what it did to him," that is ludicrous. I think it is practically impossible to isolate the effects of steroids considering all other factors that could affect performance (weight training regimen, surgeries, injuries, diet/nutrition, personal issues/mental state, etc.), and for a lay person (non-scientist/doctor) to try to do so would be speculative at best and irresponsible at worst. For instance, cherry-picking two years he admitted to steroid use, he could say that steroids helped him in 1998 (the 70 homer year), but should he also say that steroids hindered him in 1994 (9 home runs in an injury-marred season)?

The steroid era is shit for baseball. They're lucky any of us still love the game.

Speak for yourself. It may be a minority opinion, but I appreciate baseball as good entertainment and a unique physical feat, whether it's being played by cyborg roiders or ordinary humans. The steroid era has done nothing to temper my love for the game.

posted by holden at 06:38 PM on January 12, 2010

I think you overestimate what I meant by full accounting. More like "I got drug X from source A and took it from year-year, drug Y from source B from year-year, and my [muscle mass increased|hair fell out|testosterone stopped being produced|testicles shrank]." Show where steroids come from and what they did to him, and what his doctors believe the long-term consequences will be. Explain exactly how the climate in baseball made him decide to do it. Give an idea of how many other people -- including managers and baseball executives -- knew it was happening.

Those are the things of things you do if you feel terrible about juicing, hate the era you played baseball in and want to help kids stay away from steroids -- which is what McGwire told Congress he was going to do.

posted by rcade at 07:23 PM on January 12, 2010

I agree with this last statement rcade. Jim Rome said a similar thing today - that he wishes just one person would offer us full disclosure if indeed they are sincere about how terrible they feel. Course Rome forgets that one person has - Jose Canseco, and he got skewered for it, and is now persona non-grata around major league baseball. As for this statement:

The steroid era is shit for baseball. They're lucky any of us still love the game.

I could not disagree more. It is widely viewed that the McGuire/Sosa home run record chase SAVED the game - which unless I'm mistaken, and in spite of the backlash, is pretty much the opposite of your statement, because even those that are dismayed by the widespread usage by their heroes are still watching to see what happens next.

posted by MW12 at 07:36 PM on January 12, 2010

Whether people would feel differently is they were honest back then is immaterial. There will always be another problem. But now, twelve years later, they still have the fans to watch them play for another day.

posted by MW12 at 08:00 PM on January 12, 2010

I just skimmed through Juiced at a bookstore. Jose Canseco writes that McGwire was a skinny kid with an incredible swing and no muscles whose first season was clean, but the next season (1988) was when they began injecting steroids together and talked all the time about performance enhancements. It was just about the only thing they talked about, he writes.

Whether people would feel differently is they were honest back then is immaterial.

To you, clearly. But McGwire is ashamed at what he did and ashamed of the era in which he played. And I agree with him wholeheartedly.

posted by rcade at 09:03 PM on January 12, 2010

No, not necessarily. It was the second string of MVP's that made him a stone-cold lock on the HOF. Assuming, of course, that per our discussion that we're going to ignore all of his stat's from 2000 on. He'd have shownn a short-lived dominance at his position, the extra four years is what gave him a long-term dominance.

Short-lived dominance?!
That's 14 seasons.
That's 4 more seasons than required for induction to the Baseball HOF.
That's 2000 games and 8500 plate appearances.

Here is a quick list:

HOF hitters that played less than 2000 games and had less than 8500 plate appearances:
(RCAA is "Runs Created Above Average", a stat used by Lee Sinins in his Baseball Encyclopedia. It is used to show players who do better than the league average during their season/career.)

#    Name                       RCAA       G       PA     

1    Dan Brouthers               967     1673     7676   

2    Ed Delahanty                835     1835     8394   

3    Billy Hamilton              802     1591     7591   

4    Joe DiMaggio                708     1736     7671   

5    Johnny Mize                 667     1884     7371   

6    Hank Greenberg              549     1394     6096   

7    Elmer Flick                 512     1482     6409   

8    Sam Thompson                503     1407     6510   

9    Joe Kelley                  502     1842     8139   

10   Arky Vaughan                478     1817     7721   

11   King Kelly                  470     1455     6455   

12   Jim O'Rourke                452     1774     7952   

13   John McGraw                 442     1099     4939   

14   Ralph Kiner                 434     1472     6256   

15   Bill Terry                  425     1721     7111   

16   Chuck Klein                 409     1753     7168   

17   Earl Averill                391     1669     7222   

18   Hugh Duffy                  374     1737     7838   

19   Joe Medwick                 368     1984     8142   

20   Hack Wilson                 367     1348     5556   

21   Larry Doby                  359     1533     6302   

22   Frank Chance                348     1286     5099   

23   Bill Dickey                 339     1789     7060   

24   Kiki Cuyler                 325     1879     8098   

25   Jackie Robinson             308     1382     5802   

26   Earle Combs                 307     1455     6509   

27   Buck Ewing                  305     1315     5772   

T28  Mickey Cochrane             303     1482     6206   

T28  Home Run Baker              303     1575     6659   

30   Edd Roush                   294     1967     8156   

31   Jim Bottomley               282     1991     8355   

T32  Kirby Puckett               254     1783     7831   

T32  Gabby Hartnett              254     1990     7297   

34   Ross Youngs                 245     1211     5333   

35   Chick Hafey                 244     1283     5113   

36   Tony Lazzeri                229     1740     7304   

37   Roger Bresnahan             225     1446     5373   

38   Hughie Jennings             206     1285     5655   

39   Lou Boudreau                202     1646     7023   

40   Joe Gordon                  161     1566     6536   

41   Ernie Lombardi              138     1853     6347   

42   Roy Campanella              135     1215     4816   

43   Joe Sewell                  124     1903     8330   

44   George Kell                 121     1795     7528   

45   Monte Irvin                 116      764     2893   

46   Casey Stengel               113     1277     4869   

47   Jimmy Collins               105     1728     7460   

48   Bobby Doerr                  96     1865     8028   

49   Johnny Evers                 91     1784     7210   

50   Freddy Lindstrom             84     1438     6104   

T51  Miller Huggins               83     1586     6799   

T51  George Kelly                 83     1622     6565   

53   Pie Traynor                  75     1941     8293   

54   Tommy McCarthy               63     1275     5748   

55   Billy Southworth             52     1192     4927   

56   Ned Hanlon                   43     1267     5563   

57   Lloyd Waner                  34     1993     8326   

Oh, and for the record, during that time period for Bonds (1986-1999), his RCAA was 1718

That's 57 HOF hitters that had less playing time than Bonds did in his first 14 seasons. If he had retired in 1999 because of his injury that season, he would have walked into the HOF on the first ballot.

And, in case you thought he was "fading" at that time, here are the stats where he ranked in the top 10 in the NL in 1998 (his last healthy season before 2000):
Runs, Doubles, Triples, Home Runs, RBI, Walks, Stolen Bases, SLG, OBP, OPS, RCAA, Total Bases, Extra Base Hits

posted by grum@work at 10:04 PM on January 12, 2010

I'm with rcade on this one. Admit your "mistake", yes. But don't try to justify it repeatedly by saying you were just doing it to stay healthy, or get healthy, or be healthy. Everybody knows what a bullshit excuse that is and you disrespect fans by expecting them to swallow that line of crap.

I mean, what are kids supposed to take away from this? "I screwed up once, I wish I hadn't done it, and I feel bad for what it's done to my family." This is not a momentary 'oops' or some sort of temporary transgression; this was a deliberate pattern of behaviour that altered your performance. Trying to brush off any effect that the drugs had on your muscles, your strength, your hitting ability, or your skillset is ridiculous and makes you look like a moron for thinking we'd believe it. Admission of guilt should come with acceptance of responsibility for the damage you've done to the sport and the toll it's taken on your body... not reiterating all the health benefits you enjoyed from its usage.

Just infuriates the crap out of me to see him "coming clean" now. I don't believe for a minute that there's any lasting remorse here; this is a spin job, pure and simple, with one clear motive in mind.

Edit: I suppose I ought to clarify that I've never been a huge McGwire fan, never followed his career or his postseason activity and don't know a whole lot about the guy. I just see a big league home run hitter who juiced his way into the record books, and that fuels my ire about the whole thing.

posted by evixir at 10:31 PM on January 12, 2010

He called Posnanski, but didn't say much more. This part makes my head spin:

"It's my opinion," he said, "and it's something I believe deeply. With the walking MASH unit that I was, sure, steroids benefited me. They got on the field to play more games and get more at-bats.
"But I became a better hitter. If you look at the evolution of my swing change, nobody ever analyzed that. I was a back-legged hitter, I would hit these towering fly balls that went over walls by five feet. But I started learning how to drive through the baseball and create backspin. ... Hey, I acknowledged that I used steroids for health purposes, to get back on the field, get more at-bats, play in more games. It allowed my body to recover and feel like it used to feel."

It just comes off as a little comical. It didn't make him a better hitter, but it kept him on the field. You can't be a great hitter sitting on the bench. Being able to step into the batters box makes you better immediately; nothing is more important. I'm a better hitter than McGwire on the bench (though not by much).

In the same fashion Robin Williams owes you fuckall for making you laugh at him

Robin Williams owes the public for making movies and not being funny, coke or no coke. McGwire has done nothing comparable.

posted by justgary at 12:07 AM on January 13, 2010

No, I'm against people being more upset about McGwire not giving full disclosure than they were about Bill Clinton lying under oath.

I don't know who you are having a conversation with, Frazer, but it isn't anyone in this thread. I look forward to where this is going next. Do McGwire's oh-so-sanctimonious critics care more about his lies than the Gulf of Tonkin incident? Are we treating it with more seriousness than the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand?

It's fucking baseball, for Christ's sake. ... It's nothing but entertainment, period ...

The single-season and lifetime home run records were two of the most hallowed marks in sport. They were spoiled by this clown and another guy who's still waiting for the right time to tell us why his neck grew wider than his face after age 30.

Bob Costas: "Some of the Maris family have told me that they now consider their father's 61 in '61 to be the authentic single-season record."

McGwire: "They have every right to. It's unfortunate I played in this era."

Baseball may be soulless entertainment to you, but to me it's the national pastime and the integrity of the game was lost during the steroid era. McGwire and his ilk shamed the game. Now it's up to today's players to show they care more about the game than he did.

McGwire is not a very public guy, and he's pretty obviously shredded over this (publicity gurus around him or not).

He juiced up for 14 years, according to Canseco. I think the jury's still out on whether McGwire's shredded or this is just a cynical ploy to get something he wants.

posted by rcade at 01:15 AM on January 13, 2010

In the same fashion Robin Williams owes you fuckall for making you laugh at him while he was on coke

I expected, nay demanded, drug use from comedians in the 70s and 80s. A bit different from how I felt about baseball players.

posted by yerfatma at 09:23 AM on January 13, 2010

I think Bonds started juicing because less (in his view) players started taking his limelight.

That's a story that has circulated (sorry about no source.) Rumors had Bonds speaking with Griffey about the travesty of all the lesser players taking the spotlight that rightly belonged to them. One chose one path, one chose the other and the rest, as they say, is history. I don't know if I believe it, but at face value, it's plausible (ish).

posted by tahoemoj at 10:37 AM on January 13, 2010

The Steroid Era didn't start in 1998.

I never said it did. We have no actual proof to indicate when the steriod era began. The only thing we know for a fact is that in 1998, Sosa and McGwire put on a power display that we have never seen before and now we know that it was all a sham.

When McGwire broke Roger Maris' season season HR record, he became the face of the league which he didn't deserve due to his use of steriods to accomplish the same feats that we believe Maris did naturally in 1961 when he broke Babe Ruth's record.

posted by BornIcon at 11:27 AM on January 13, 2010

I don't know who you are having a conversation with, Frazer, but it isn't anyone in this thread.

It's directed at everyone in this thread who takes no pause to consider what they would have done in the same situation. Millions of dollars on the table, the tacit approval of the league, owners and fans and -- again -- it wasn't illegal. Was it wrong? In my eyes, yes, it was, and I was glad to finally hear McGwire talk a little bit about it. Do I hope it talks more? Yes, I do, but if he doesn't, it's really none of my fucking business.

This overarching need for some of you to get a "full disclosure" or pissed at the timing -- it's like you feel he owes you something. Why? Did he come shoot you up? Did he run over your dog in a steroid rage? Nothing Mark McGwire did affected you in any way, shape or form.

As for records and the Maris family, can we point out here that Babe Ruth's family never acknowledged Roger's record, and for a much better reason -- he played eight more games. Are we going back to 60?

Afraid of prosecution? And you wouldn't be? They're going to dig around in his past, make life hell for him and his family and friends -- and for what? Something he did that wasn't illegal? Yes, by all means, I'm sure everyone here would have stepped up to take that when everyone else was just denying, denying, denying.

McGwire and his ilk shamed the game.

So did everyone else who let the sham continue for as long as it did. Bperk nailed it -- blame McGwire if you like (and I do), but there's plenty more to go around, and I think to even more deserving shoulders.

It's a great thing to have the truth out there but we all believe that the only reason that McGwire is doing this is because he wants to be able to come back to the game of baseball which he's doing with the Cardinals as a hitting coach but to also get in the good graces of the very writers who can vote for him to be included in the Hall of Fame which is important to him.

It's fine that you believe that, BI. I don't, at least not in its entirety. That means you can't use the word "all" there.

I expected, nay demanded, drug use from comedians in the 70s and 80s. A bit different from how I felt about baseball players.

Good thing a lot of them were using during the same time, huh? I wonder if Rock Raines should lose a few stolen bases for being hopped up on goofballs.

On preview:

What I'm learning from this conversation is never admit to anything, it's a trap. The people asking for it will never be satisfied when they finally get it. Something will be a little off or it'll be too scripted or you didn't say enough, it's not worth it, don't say anything.

Bingo.

posted by wfrazerjr at 11:40 AM on January 13, 2010

It's directed at everyone in this thread who takes no pause to consider what they would have done in the same situation.

An FBI informant told the New York Daily News today that McGwire's steroid regimen was "one-half cc of testosterone cypionate every three days; one cc of testosterone enanthate per week; the veterinary steroids Equipoise and Winstrol V, one quarter cc every three days, injected into the buttocks, one in one cheek, one in the other."

On one hand you're saying that what McGwire did "wasn't illegal," but on the other you're saying he had good reason to fear prosecution. The informant was part of a case that netted 70 convictions.

Would I do what he did in the same situation? No. If I reached the Major Leagues with natural talent, as he appears to have done, I would not take a massive cocktail of performance-enhancing drugs for more than a decade. What is the point of being a famous multimillion-dollar athlete if it shrinks your mantackle, you suffer performance loss in the bedroom, and perhaps even die early like Lyle Alzado?

This overarching need for some of you to get a "full disclosure" or pissed at the timing -- it's like you feel he owes you something.

Again, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You say that you hope he talks more, but when others say the same thing, we're acting like he owes us something and it sparks your outrage. No one said he owes us anything. You raised that straw man and it was immediately shot down.

The notion that you're one of the only fair-minded people on this subject is unadulterated bullshit. I wish you'd get past that. The idea that we have some kind of "overarching need" here is ridiculous. Like you, everybody else is reacting to McGwire's choice to finally admit his steroid use. He wasn't hounded -- the discussion is taking place entirely on his terms. There's nothing remotely unfair about baseball fans hashing this out and looking for answers.

posted by rcade at 12:01 PM on January 13, 2010

It's fine that you believe that, BI. I don't, at least not in its entirety.

It's equally fine that you don't believe that in it's entirety but it's safe to assume that you believe it somewhat.

I've been saying it for years, I don't really care what these guys did. They're the ones that have to live with what they've done. They're the ones that have to deal with the reprecussions of having their bodies start to malfunction due to their abuse of steriods. It may not have been illegal in the MLB but in the real world it is. They don't owe me or any one of us anything, they owe it to themselves to tell the truth if they choose to.

Plus, I really can't say one way or another what I would've done if I was in their situation. Take steriods and jack up my stats enough to get a monster contract when it's time to renegotiate or take my chances and play naturally and hope for the best.

posted by BornIcon at 12:24 PM on January 13, 2010

It's a masterpiece.

posted by BoKnows at 01:27 PM on January 13, 2010

he is being singled out for different treatment than others who have been in similar situations or who have done worse

I don't think A-Rod's a fair comparison because his scandal blew up well after the baseball's collective fanbase had become inured to new scandal. He had the good fortune to be exposed as a cheater after the game had been exposed as full of cheats. The treatment of steroid users since ennui set in has been terribly inconsistent: Andy Pettite's transgressions are almost completely forgotten because he was "honest" (which is bullshit) while Roger Clemens will never escape the allegations surrounding him (which have yet to be proved even though he's a lying, cheating scumbag*). Players who are caught now are judged based on what kind of person they were in the media before the scandal. But you can't expect McGwire to skate by on that because his story didn't begin yesterday.

A-Rod was never as universally beloved as McGwire. McGwire was bigger than the game in that season, a walking tall tale, an American legend in a way few players (if any) have been during my lifetime. There are no new stories under the sun and this is just Icarus redux. He ought to accept it and go home. There's some honor in that. If he pulls some cheap stunt to restart the HoF clock, his honor is gone and the last of his legend will leak out of the balloon.

That said, I believe both you are fraze are Cardinals fans and I'd feel the same way if the roles were reversed. I'll never really care about Ortiz's steroid scandal because he was Big Papi before that and it's impossible to synthesize the two persons, so I chose to go with the one that made me happy.

* Obligatory Red Sox fan addition

posted by yerfatma at 02:09 PM on January 13, 2010

On one hand you're saying that what McGwire did "wasn't illegal," but on the other you're saying he had good reason to fear prosecution. The informant was part of a case that netted 70 convictions.

When? When were these substances made illegal, and when were the convictions? It certainly wasn't in 1988, when McGwire is alleged to have started using them. I will say this -- the best I can find for a date when anabolic steroids were made illegal is in the Anabolic Steroid Control Act of 1990, which doesn't jibe with what I'd read before. Can someone confirm this?

As for not taking them, good for you -- I'm glad you're sure with the pressure all around you to take them, you could have said no. Apparently, you would have been in the minority, as evidenced by this quote from the link:

"Everybody was taking steroids," the FBI informant told The News. "You could not go to gyms and not see monsters. Drugs were available. They were cheap."

Sounds like everyone back then was making the right decision.

Again, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth.

No, you just want to see it that way. I'm perfectly fine to let it sit the way it is -- McGwire said what he wanted to say, and I'm glad he did. I'd like to hear more about how everything went down, but I'd also have been fine if he never said anything.

I'm not sure how that's in the same line as:

A full accounting of everything he did, who he got it from, and what it did to him would be pretty nice.

In other words, the apology and resulting discussion should have been done to satisfy your needs, not his. That's the tenor I'm getting from just about everyone in here, and as holden asks -- why is it that way for McGwire and no one else? When are you all going to be calling for Brady Anderson's nuts in a jar?

As for unadulterated bullshit, you're right. I do think I'm one of the only people here being honest and fair in how this is being handled. I'm not reacting to McGwire's admission now -- I'm reacting to what I see as the amazing amount of acrimony toward McGwire when it hasn't been there in other cases.

posted by wfrazerjr at 03:09 PM on January 13, 2010

McGwire was married with a newborn son back when he began using steroids in 1988, if you believe Canseco's timeline. Would you have done that with a wife and young kid at home, when you were already rookie of the year?

The health point is a very valid one, but McGwire had no guarantee of career success just for winning rookie of the year. At the time, he was a cost-controlled quantity with no guarantee of ever hitting a huge payday, so perhaps the pressure to continue to produce so he could get his first big contract was an incentive. There have been ROYs who have flamed out prior to getting a big contract. For example, according to Baseball Reference, 2003 AL ROY Angel Berroa made just over $3,000,000 in his career in total, which would be a lot to most of us but fairly minimal in the realm of professional baseball. Berroa is an outlier of course (and I am sure there are few, if any, ROYs who had as big of a monster year as McGwire had as a rookie only to never land a big contract), but the salary structure of baseball is such that there is/was a large incentive for young players to juice or seek some extra edge.

posted by holden at 05:09 PM on January 13, 2010

Bobby Brown and Milli Vanilli in the same thread - I love it!

I don't really understand what he did to make you all think he's the most heinous guy out there that did this, or why you're frying him for at least owning up to it

Let's be serious - first off, people get skewered on SpoFi every day; second, McGwuire brought this attention on himself because

a) he contributed to his own pomp & circumstance by asking the Maris family to be present when he broke the record b) he made a complete and total ass of himself in front of Congress, regardless of his intentions and all the coaching/legal counsel he received; and c) the timing of his decision to come forward is fishy

Can we at least all agree that if he'd come forward sometime other than right before his return to the game that his sincerity would be a whole lot less suspect?

Seems to me the ONLY reason he came forward right now is to minimize the circus atmosphere that's going to follow him around spring training next month.

posted by MW12 at 07:23 PM on January 13, 2010

I'd hate to see how many mistakes people would make if Mark Grudzielanek, Doug Mientkiewicz, or Jarrod Saltalamacchia were the center of attention.

I heard all of them bought drugs from current Mariner's GM Jack Zduriencik.

posted by holden at 12:35 AM on January 14, 2010

Even Alzado's doctor says there's no link.

I'm sure that doesn't mean what it looks like it means. So now we're arguing whether steroids pose a health risk? Whether they do or they don't, McGwire will continue to get heat for using them.

posted by yerfatma at 07:14 AM on January 14, 2010

Look, you guys want to bury him for this, and you're really being harsh on the guy.

Beyond calling steroid users morons and viewing McGwire's statements and motives with skepticism, I don't think I've been exceptionally harsh in my take here. The first thing I said was that I was glad he came forward, and I said that his claim steroids didn't help his stats was the only thing he could say if he's trying to keep his Hall of Fame chances alive.

The bottom line for me is that these steroid users tarnished an era of the game and made everything they accomplished suspect. I hate that. My interest in baseball now has a 10-15 year chunk taken out of it. I can't stand the fact that the home run records are tainted. So I focus on the present and on the pre-'roid past.

If McGwire and the others come forward and show that they are genuinely sorry, taking actions that demonstrate this, I will respect them more than I do now. He took one step in that direction. That's good. If he feels as much shame as he claims, he could do a lot more.

As for the health risk of steroids, I haven't watched Real Sports yet, but I have trouble believing they are safe given warnings like this one from the National Institute on Drug Abuse:

Major potential adverse side effects from taking anabolic steroids include liver tumors and cancer, jaundice, high blood pressure, increase in LDL ("bad") cholesterol, enlarged heart, heart attacks, strokes, and flying into rages. Other side effects include severe acne, baldness, oily scalp and skin, and mood swings.

Men who take anabolic steroids may also develop breasts, have their testicles shrink, have decreased sperm count, become infertile, and become impotent.

Women who take anabolic steroids become masculinized and may also grow excessive body and facial hair, experience menstrual irregularities, have their voice deepen, have an enlarged clitoris, and have reduced breast size.

Teens who take anabolic steroids may also have their growth halted prematurely and permanently.

Jose Canseco's ex wrote in her tell-all memoir Juicy about his steroid-fueled anger and depression, and the "startling changes in his genitalia," as Pat Jordan described in his "Chasing Jose" piece from Deadspin a couple years ago. A former steroid abusing athlete like McGwire could do a lot of good for the young athletes of the world if he talked about the adverse side effects and health risks. All we ever hear about is the upside -- the gaudy numbers and the chase for athletic glory -- and the only downside is the shame of getting caught.

posted by rcade at 11:00 AM on January 14, 2010

I'm sure that doesn't mean what it looks like it means.

So you're sure you know what's in the report without watching the report. Gotcha.

And "Real Sports" is crackpot now?

posted by wfrazerjr at 12:14 PM on January 14, 2010

I'm sure that doesn't mean what it looks like it means

Wha?

posted by BornIcon at 12:51 PM on January 14, 2010

Since we're back on the health issues of steroids, don't forget that much of the concern centers around young people taking them while they're still growing. If the pro's take them to get an advantage, the college and high schoolers will be tempted to do as well. I think there are valid reasons for banning them regardless of whether, or not, Alzado's heart issues were 100% to blame on them.

posted by dviking at 06:16 PM on January 14, 2010

that doesn't mean anything

I'm not saying that. I'm saying, "Where's source #2 with the same position?"

If the pro's take them to get an advantage, the college and high schoolers will be tempted to do as well

I just can't get behind that. How is my kid's behavior the obligation of Mark McGwire, Lyle Alzado or Charles Barkley?

posted by yerfatma at 09:18 AM on January 15, 2010

I still feel like that's begging the question. There were thousands of kids in 1998 who didn't consider McGwire a role model because their parents didn't think sports was something the kids should be interested in. How far would you stretch McGwire's obligation to a specific kid?

posted by yerfatma at 12:04 PM on January 15, 2010

Because, and I guess this is where I do side with fraze, put in that same spot, I can't imagine passing up a much bigger payday because of the chance my steroid use could possibly come out and then somehow cause Timmy in Podunkville to copy my actions. We talk a lot about how small the window of opportunity is for athletes to earn money and how unlikely it is to make it to the major leagues at all. If I'd sacrificed so much (and foregone educational opportunities like most athletes seem to do), I can't see sacrificing the benefits of steroids because of a theoretical kid.

I get that famous athletes are "lucky". I can even see the idea they have an obligation to the fans who make them rich. But if the deal is that you have to sacrifice in a way most of us won't to be able to be the 1% (pros) of the 1% (great athletes) and then you're obligated to worry about how your actions affect the people who didn't or couldn't make the climb, that doesn't sound so lucky.

Sorry, that last bit is a mess. I just can't hold pro athletes to a higher moral standard than my own, especially when they often haven't received (or have passed on) the educational opportunities I have. Hell, they won't even let me be the banker in Monopoly around here.

I'm also confused why other entertainers aren't held to the same kind of standard. I realize this is a sports site, but I feel like actors who have a problem get a pass because they're tortured artists, while meatsticks who crash into each other for a living are beneath us and should feel lucky to have the opportunity to teach us morality.

posted by yerfatma at 01:23 PM on January 15, 2010

But, in reality, it is up to parents to be the role model for their children.

What about the kids with no parents or lousy ones? If you say that it's ideal for everyone to embrace the opportunity to be role models, why would you suggest that McGwire and other athletes should reject the mantle?

posted by rcade at 01:59 PM on January 15, 2010

I have a slightly different take on the Athletes as Role Models in terms of steroids.

I do think kids who want to excel in sports are influenced by what athletes are doing. If a teenager who dreams of playing pro baseball sees that the best athletes take steroids, they are going to influenced by this. And some of them will end up taking steroids. And, as much as a parent wants to be a role model, a headstrong teenager who thinks he knows everything may end up taking steroids.

I think public policy demands that we keep steroids out of the hands of kids, unless prescribed by a reputable Doctor.

That being said, this is as much the responsibility of MLB, the owners, agents and even the players union as much as the individual athletes.

McGwire is an adult and he made his (bad) choices. But given the atmosphere in MLB at the time, it's hard for me to single him out as a negative role model when MLB, the owners, GMs, etc. were turning a blind eye to their activities because it made them money.

posted by cjets at 04:08 PM on January 15, 2010

There's another thing, something you don't hear people talk about much. In fact, my old friend Buck O'Neil was about the only person I ever heard talk openly about this. Buck would get infuriated because people constantly talked about the "benefits" of using steroids to the exclusion of almost everything else. He'd say something like: "Well, people talk all the time about how they will help you hit the ball farther and pitch the ball faster. Why don't they talk instead about how you might die young? Why don't they talk about how you might not be able to have children? Why are they always telling children: 'Use this and it will make you a great baseball player... but you shouldn't use it?'"

From the awesome article by Joe Posnanski.

posted by grum@work at 04:22 PM on January 15, 2010

Would I do what he did in the same situation? No. If I reached the Major Leagues with natural talent, as he appears to have done, I would not take a massive cocktail of performance-enhancing drugs for more than a decade.

Yeah, I don't really buy the 'anyone would have done it' angle. Even looking at the highest estimates of steroid use, there was a large percentage that didn't use. I'm sure many had the chance. That's not saying temptation isn't strong to cheat on your final exam/ taxes/ wife/ or not return the money you found, but many people do resist.

And I don't really see McGwire taking an exorbitant amount of abuse here, not compared to what A-Rod received or Bonds would receive if he made this admission. I have no strong opinions on McGwire, and I have no problem accepting this decade any more than I do baseball pre-integration (unlike, say, rcade), but I think his excuse is ripe for discussion, and should be discussed.

I think his apology was sincere. I think he's sorry he got involved. But it was also an apology that looked out for his own interests. If McGwire had said it did help him hit a baseball better, harder, further, I think his Hall of Fame chances would be zero. But he didn't say that. He's claiming his hitting was all natural, and the drugs just kept him on the field; allowed him to display his god given talents.

That almost paints McGwire in a sympathetic light. Well played sir, well played.

posted by justgary at 04:25 PM on January 15, 2010

Former Cardinals slugger Jack Clark on McGwire: "Just seeing him in uniform makes me throw up."

posted by rcade at 04:37 PM on January 15, 2010

So did Jack Clark have a responsibility to me as a kid to be a role model for living within your means and having a budget? Because during those two years with the Sox he was an awful example of that. I still want to own a race car because of him.

posted by yerfatma at 05:31 PM on January 15, 2010

It appears that Jack Clark has, since his playing days, been enjoying a performance-enhancing diet of donuts and self-tanner. Where is his neck? How did his head get so big?

posted by holden at 05:42 PM on January 15, 2010

I'd sooner listen to the Jack Clarks and Andy VanSlykes, guys who actually played in the majors. The fact they played the same game and didn't cave to this same "pressure" McGwire did in order to succeed and get their big payday tells me something.

How do you know that Clark didn't succumb to the pressure?

Jack Clark used to have a lot of speed in his early years, and then he suddenly became pretty much just a slugger.

Jack Clark (the early years)

Jack Clark (the end of his career)

Those forearms look HUGE compared to his early career version, and these big arms seemed to appear after a few years of injuries.

Just saying...

posted by grum@work at 01:45 PM on January 16, 2010

for the record, when I made my comment a few days ago that drew the response I thought athletes weren't role models?, I wasn't referring to players as social role models. It was in line with what cjets stated yesterday.

Any player with potential to move up is going to be influenced by the actions of those ahead of him. If Bonds has to use them to be what he was, then it sets off a ripple effect that reaches all the way down to high school. The kid in school is fully aware that if he can boost his slugging performance up a bit, he has a better chance of being drafted, or getting a scholarship to a better school. If that kid saw the pro's being held accountable, and if the health dangers were discussed more, I think they'd think twice. This current situation in which guys like ARod admit to using them, and then don't suffer any real consequences is not good.

posted by dviking at 04:21 PM on January 16, 2010

And if MLB can't (or won't) do anything to these guys who test positive for PEDs while they're playing, at least keep them out of the game once they're gone! As I said earlier, McGwire being allowed to come back to baseball and coach? That's inexcusable.

When exactly did McGwire test positive for PEDs while playing?

posted by grum@work at 05:39 PM on January 16, 2010

When exactly did McGwire test positive for PEDs while playing?

I never said he did test positive while playing. He just admitted it he used them.

I think you should be more pissed at the guys like Jack Clark who must have known players were using PEDs, but decided to keep quiet about it.

Why would I expect anything from Jack Clark, or anyone similar to him. Tony LaRussa is always touted as the most intelligent baseball person in the fucking world, and he managed McGwire for practically his entire career, yet still insists he knew nothing about it. If anyone out there truly believes that, I'd be amazed.

posted by dyams at 10:50 PM on January 16, 2010

They're the same chemists the government hired to create AIDS, SARS, and help formulate crack cocaine for the CIA to distribute.

double wtf?

Well, dyams presented a bizarre conspiracy theory at the end of that comment, so I thought it should line up nicely with the other insane conspiracy theories I've heard.

Why would I expect anything from Jack Clark, or anyone similar to him.

I don't think anyone should expect to hear anything from Jack Clark during his career, so I don't understand why anything said by Jack Clark AFTER his career should be taken seriously. But you said you'd listen to what he'd say, and I just wanted to point out that unless he was completely blind, he would definitely know what was going on in his locker room.

It's hypocritical to accept your teammates using PEDs, but to then rant and rave after the fact when other players are caught using them.

Tony LaRussa is always touted as the most intelligent baseball person in the fucking world,

My turn:

wtf?

This guy is considered "intelligent"?

posted by grum@work at 12:17 AM on January 17, 2010

Jack Clark's playing days ended in 1992, so like Tony LaRussa, he was in a position where he must have known that steroid abuse was rampant in the game. I find it extremely difficult to believe that most people in the game didn't know anything.

So if Clark has never said anything until now -- and I don't know that's the case -- he contributed to the problem. Not as much as the players who 'roided up or the people who ran the sport and turned a blind eye, but he still can't claim the high road now.

posted by rcade at 10:59 AM on January 17, 2010

I took your response wrong.

posted by dyams at 02:35 PM on January 17, 2010

In a brief appearance, he warned kids not to try steroids

Yeah, because McGwire is living proof if you use steroids you might sign contracts for millions of dollars and, when your playing days are over, become a coach at the major league level. Great lesson there.

We've heard your lame story now, Mark, so just shut the hell up.

posted by dyams at 05:37 PM on January 17, 2010

Just in case anyone was curious as to how the McGwire thing is playing out with the St. Louis fans:

Mark McGwire received a standing ovation from Cardinals fans Sunday in his first public appearance in St. Louis since admitting he used steroids.

Former Cardinals slugger Jack Clark, who called McGwire a "phony" in a St. Louis Post-Dispatch story last week, was booed in an appearance on the same stage not long before McGwire's appearance.

posted by grum@work at 01:07 AM on January 18, 2010

Has anyone watched the video I linked?

Anyone?

posted by wfrazerjr at 05:42 PM on January 19, 2010