12/03/24
June 26, 2008
Astros' Shawn Chacon Suspended After Fight with GM: Houston Astros pitcher Shawn Chacon has been suspended after a physical altercation with general manager Ed Wade in the team's dining room. "He started yelling and cussing," said Chacon, recently demoted to the bullpen. "... I grabbed him by the neck and threw him to the ground. I jumped on top of him because at that point I wanted to beat his [butt]." Team owner Drayton McLane said Chacon will never pitch for the team again: "You can't defy authority."
The full story as posted by the AP says that initially Wade did ask Chacon to meet with him and the manager separately, and that Chacon refused. If that is true, the statement that "wanting to play the big man and curse out another grown man in front of everyone else" is based on a lack of information. Just for arguements sake, I would like to know who is supposed to "play the part of the big man" for major league franchises if not the general manager? Many teams have group ownership, so the general manager is the big man when dealing with players. I certainly do not intend to defend the actions of Mr. Wade. A true professional businessman would have done as wfrazerjr suggests and walked away, and handled the situation as needed. I also yield that the yelling was definitely unprofessional, but the use of profanity? The constant use of profanity in professional sports is so prevalent today, they even had to apologize for golfers comments during the US Open on television. Have you heard an interview with Ozzie Guillen that did not have to be bleeped? Isn't there a reason post game interviews are taped or delayed so frequently by the major networks? Many sports icons and their fans use profanity so often, they can't help themselves when they speak in everyday situations. A general manager using profanity when addressing a player in public could easily be dismissed as everyday speech in professional sport conversations. I am not condoning prevalent profanity, just commenting that it should not be grounds for battery, epecially in the sports arena. Chacon might be just fine with the outcome right now, but if he is added to the 'non-existant black list' of players whom no team will sign, he may think differently later. He might not be as happy with accepting the consequences later as he thinks now. One thing is for sure, Wade probably won't be getting in too many players faces in the near future.
posted by knowsalittle at 09:58 AM on June 26, 2008
Yeah, fraze, the article makes it a little clearer that Wade only got into it with Chacon in front of others because Chacon wouldn't talk to him in private. I was ready to jump on Ed Wade because it sounded like a John Gibbons situation; instead it sounds like Chacon was spoiling for a fight.
posted by yerfatma at 10:29 AM on June 26, 2008
It's bush league for McLane to question Chacon's courage in the paper like that. Dealing with angry and disappointed players you've demoted or released comes with the territory. The GM and owner have to be the cooler heads in that situation. They're rid of Chacon, but players aren't going to forget how they handled this -- especially free agents deciding whether to sign there.
posted by rcade at 10:30 AM on June 26, 2008
What color is he?
posted by budman13 at 10:35 AM on June 26, 2008
Thank God you bolded that to make sure no one missed the bombshell. A little more background from an Astros beat writer: "A little over a week ago, I wrote a blog telling you the situation was quite toxic in the Astros' clubhouse and that players weren't quite buying into management's plan."
posted by yerfatma at 10:40 AM on June 26, 2008
One thing is for sure, Wade probably won't be getting in too many players faces in the near future But Ed Wade shouldn't have been all up "in the face" of any player, period. His job isn't to belittle a player or to talk down to one. You used Ozzie Guillen as an example but that doesn't mean that Ozzie talks to his players in a disrespectful tone while using profanity and even if he does (which I don't know for sure since I don't work for the White Sox), he isn't the GM of the team. A managers job is to make his players want to play for him and in turn, he'll fight for them until the end. To have the GM of a team publicly berate a player and flat-out disrespecting him in front of the entire team isn't professional behaviour and he should not have been surprised by Shawn Chacon's actions, no one should. Just because Chacon decided not to join Astros manager Cecil Cooper and Wade to talk in Cooper's office doesn't mean that Wade should have done what he did, especially to a grown man. I would never condone Shawn Chacon pulling a Sprewell but if anyone comes at me the way that Ed Wade did to him, you can bet that it might go down exactly like this as well.
posted by BornIcon at 10:41 AM on June 26, 2008
Chacon sounds like a big baby. He "wants to be left alone", he "doesn't want to go into the office". Geez, it's a kindergarten. And this one, "And I don’t think whatever they had to say to me they were going to make me happy." Yeah, well life's a bitch, Shawn. I understand that Chacon was recently demoted and wasn't happy about it, but that's no excuse for his actions. He needs a blanky and his pacifier.
posted by BoKnows at 10:48 AM on June 26, 2008
He needs a blanky and his pacifier. Definitely. This makes no sense. He should have just gone into the office, covered his ears, and yelled at the top of his lungs, "LA LA LA, I DON'T HEAR YOU!"
posted by bperk at 11:01 AM on June 26, 2008
To have the GM of a team publicly berate a player and flat-out disrespecting him in front of the entire team isn't professional behaviour What about a player who can't be arsed to get up and walk into the manager's office and lets him know in front of the other players? Is that professional?
posted by yerfatma at 11:03 AM on June 26, 2008
Yeah, fraze, the article makes it a little clearer that Wade only got into it with Chacon in front of others because Chacon wouldn't talk to him in private. I was ready to jump on Ed Wade because it sounded like a John Gibbons situation; instead it sounds like Chacon was spoiling for a fight. I don't read the article that way at all. Chacon was eating lunching and declined going into the manager's office, possibly because he feared being released or what would be said in private. So he told them to come out with it in public, in front of the rest of the team, and Wade snapped. That's Wade's problem, not Chacon's. It also doesn't change the fact that Wade could have simply gone upstairs and announced Chacon was released. Then, when the media asked questions, Wade could have said, "We hoped to talk with Shawn about his role with the team, but he refused to meet with our staff. That's insubordination, and as a result of that, he's no longer an Astro." It's also pretty clear Cooper and Wade don't have the best relationship running with most of the team, let alone Chacon. Maybe Chacon was attempting to avoid a situation he might thought turn out like this in private. If you read the comments being posted in response to the original story, there's a great one from a Phillie fan who says Wade has been prone to this sort of thing since he was GM there. I have also heard and read the same complaints, and apparently Scott Rolen hated Wade with a passion. Like I said, Chacon could and should have handled this differently, and he may pay for it with his career. But Wade's job should be on the line also for incredibly unprofessional conduct.
posted by wfrazerjr at 11:08 AM on June 26, 2008
You used Ozzie Guillen as an example but that doesn't mean that Ozzie talks to his players in a disrespectful tone while using profanity and even if he does (which I don't know for sure since I don't work for the White Sox), I used Ozzie Guillen as an example of a major sports figure who makes no attempt to control his profanity, not as an example of managers bereating players (which he has done as ESPN has shown more than once - you don't have to work for the White Sox to know that)
posted by knowsalittle at 11:13 AM on June 26, 2008
Hey Leave Ozzie out of this! LOL! For the money these guy's are getting payed to PERFORM, You mean to tell me a little assrippen once in a while is a big deal? Let me sign that contract. Call me anything you want just make sure the checks good. This is gettin to be more like little league every year.
posted by volfire at 11:15 AM on June 26, 2008
That's Wade's problem, not Chacon's. It also doesn't change the fact that Wade could have simply gone upstairs and announced Chacon was released. Then, when the media asked questions, Wade could have said, "We hoped to talk with Shawn about his role with the team, but he refused to meet with our staff. That's insubordination, and as a result of that, he's no longer an Astro." I agree that that would have been the best way to handle this. I have also heard and read the same complaints, and apparently Scott Rolen hated Wade with a passion. Rolen's a baby too. He just a more "professional" baby. (Don't get me wrong, I was/am a Rolen fan. But he has butted heads with LaRussa too, so Rolen may not be the best example to refer to when talking about player/manager relations.)
posted by BoKnows at 11:21 AM on June 26, 2008
When made aware of Chacon’s comment, Wade politely declined comment on the specifics. Wonder which side the Houston reporter is taking in this. It's not that Wade declined comment; he POLITELY declined comment. What I am really wondering is what did they want to talk to Chacon about in private? They had already demoted him to the bullpen. He had already asked to be traded. If they were going to cut him, just cut him. It really looks to me like Wade or Cooper were almost trying to force a confrontation so they could avoid the expense of cutting him. If so, then Chacon was stupid to fall for their game.
posted by graymatters at 11:23 AM on June 26, 2008
What about a player who can't be arsed to get up and walk into the manager's office and lets him know in front of the other players? Is that professional? Considering we all read this from the article, the only thing Chacon told them was, "anything you can say you can say to me right here. I don’t want to go to the office". I didn't know that merited for the GM of the team to conduct himself with unprofessional behaviour. I used Ozzie Guillen as an example of a major sports figure who makes no attempt to control his profanity... This post isn't about someone not being able to control the use of profane language though. The problem is, is that people assume that because a player is under contract with a team, they can talk to them any which way they want and that's just not true. Just because these athletes get paid millions of dollars doesn't mean that you cannot talk to them like a human being instead of a dog and we all know that dogs do bite.
posted by BornIcon at 11:32 AM on June 26, 2008
I didn't know that merited for the GM of the team to conduct himself with unprofessional behaviour. In no way am I saying it did, nor am I saying Wade was a model of decorum here. Just that it's not Hero v. Villain. They both come out shitty.
posted by yerfatma at 11:38 AM on June 26, 2008
Just that it's not Hero v. Villain. They both come out shitty. No doubt. You get no argument from me there.
posted by BornIcon at 11:42 AM on June 26, 2008
It sounds like you can make a pretty solid case that Wade behaved unprofessionally...but in any workplace there's a big difference in the consequences for speech, no matter using what language and what volume, and getting physical with someone. A functional organization corrects or terminates a manager who's verbally abusive to subordinates, a broken organization lets it slide...any organization fires you if you take a swing at someone.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 11:49 AM on June 26, 2008
Forgotten in all of the unprofessional action comments is that Chacon commited a class B misdemeanor at the least, and depending on the prosecutor, could have possibly been charged with a felony. Depending upon the specific wording used by Wade, it is possible he could have been charged with verbal assault as well. It is lucky for the parties involved the Astros treated this like a hockey fight. Five minutes to Wade for instigating...two minors for roughing to Chacon...game misconduct to Chacon. It is amazing in this litigious society that a court case isn't already filed...maybe one awaits...
posted by knowsalittle at 11:53 AM on June 26, 2008
So Ed Wade yelled at him. Waah. It seems to be an accurate statement to say that Chacon was first approached by Wade to talk in private, which Chacon refused to do. I know a lot of the "professional athlete apologists" will disagree with this, but if I asked an employee of mine to meet with me in my office and they refused I would probably fire them. If they grabbed me by the neck, they could expect assault charges. I summise my position like this: You can dislike whomever you want. When you put your hands on them, you are automatically wrong.
posted by THX-1138 at 12:07 PM on June 26, 2008
...if I asked an employee of mine to meet with me in my office and they refused I would probably fire them. If they grabbed me by the neck, they could expect assault charges. You forgot the part before they grabbed your neck that you spoke to that individual as if he/she were some piece of shyte. Who here appreciates anyone speaking to them in a demeaning manner? Anyone...anyone?
posted by BornIcon at 12:18 PM on June 26, 2008
When this story broke, I went to the Chronicle website to see what their commentary columnists had to say. Sorry to see that the Chron predominantly focused on Chacon being the bad guy and didn't deal much with Wade's conduct. Not what you would call completely balanced and fair. Well, Wade and Chacon both need help and they both can afford it, so get to it, fellas. Freaky how Ed Wade not only acted like vintage Bruce Dern in the dining room, he also bears a certain resemblance to Dern as well. It's them eyes. Unsettling. Shortly, he won't be anyone's GM anymore. Chacon, Wade, Cuban, Clemens...what is it about Houston that brings out the best in people?
posted by beaverboard at 12:19 PM on June 26, 2008
You forgot the part before they grabbed your neck that you spoke to that individual as if he/she were some piece of shyte. In no way does that give one the right to assault another.
posted by BoKnows at 12:28 PM on June 26, 2008
In no way does that give one the right to assault another. Not a right, but an excuse. A person should really not get in someone else's face and curse at them. If they do that and get hurt as a result, I don't have much sympathy for them.
posted by bperk at 12:34 PM on June 26, 2008
Not a right, but an excuse. A person should really not get in someone else's face and curse at them. If they do that and get hurt as a result, I don't have much sympathy for them. It's still not right. I've been reamed before. I've been yelled at. But I haven't attacked someone because of it. Feel bad for: Lance Berkman - having a tremendous year, by himself.
posted by BoKnows at 12:44 PM on June 26, 2008
True, but I have no sympathy to the individual who gets slapped with assault charges as a result of the confrontation.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 12:45 PM on June 26, 2008
You forgot the part before they grabbed your neck that you spoke to that individual as if he/she were some piece of shyte. Try using that explanation in front of the judge during your trial on assault charges. And I'd like to add that if someone uses the old neck grab and toss to the ground move whenever they got yelled at, they are a piece of shyte.
posted by THX-1138 at 12:53 PM on June 26, 2008
A person should really not get in someone else's face and curse at them. Break up The Marines!
posted by yerfatma at 12:58 PM on June 26, 2008
A person should really not get in someone else's face Ban the Steve Wilkos show too....molesting perverts, spouse and child abusers, and rapists shouldn't have someone get in their face and tell them they are garbage. They deserve respect! I am kidding of course. It just seems like society has arbitrary lines when it comes to getting in someones face and cursing them out. Pysical assault, however, is clearly defined in the judicial system.
posted by knowsalittle at 01:41 PM on June 26, 2008
Chacon, Wade, Cuban, Clemens...what is it about Houston that brings out the best in people? Hey, leave Cuban out of this. Good or bad, Dallas still claims him.
posted by graymatters at 01:47 PM on June 26, 2008
Just another note to add to the VERY long list of reasons why Ed Wade is terrible at his job. Another long list is the number of players who wish they could choke this guy themselves.
posted by DudeDykstra at 04:46 PM on June 26, 2008
lmao AT "BREAK UP THE MARINES!" They are real men , paid ALOT LESS. Anyway he's looking for a new job now. The Astro's just released him. Try collecting on that paycheck.
posted by volfire at 04:48 PM on June 26, 2008
A general manager using profanity when addressing a player in public could easily be dismissed as everyday speech in professional sport conversations. There's a difference between telling someone to "get your F'in A in the office", and calling them names. I agree that profanity is prevelant not just in sports but modern society in general. I've played sports my whole life and have heard everything, but there is a big difference between using profanity in reference to something as opposed to someone. For example, if someone misses a dunk and yells out "F*ck" it is way different then looking at another player and saying "F*ck you!". I don't know where you're from but where I come from the later will always result in some type of confrontation. The GM was trying to make him look stupid in front of his peers and he got dumped on his A**. That's what happens to normal people in the real world. I agree with you Walt, this GM let his title get to his head. When you're talking to someone who can kick your butt you better be careful what words you choose to use. He should have walked away and released Chacon. Simple, easy, and he wouldn't have gotten beat down. Too many times little people think they can say anything to anyone and not get beat down because it's "assault". As far as I'm concerned, Chacon got verbally assaulted and defended himself physically.
posted by docshredder at 07:29 PM on June 26, 2008
It's not "assault", it battery. Battery is typically a felony offense and it involves physical contact with the intent to injure other(s). If you are going to quote me or attempt to discredit me, please know the difference. Chacon's own admision that he was "ready to kick his ass" leaves little to the intent. It is not now, nor has it been the past, legal to defend oneself from verbal abuse with physical force. Also, I do not remember reading anywere that there was an account of Wade telling Chacon to "F" off, verbally abusing his family or loved ones, or any other account otherwise involving profanity or otherwise. I am glad you were there, and know exactly what was said so you can enlighten us all with your profound insight. PS Who is Walt?...and you started it...Chacon was in the wrong, Wade was in the wrong as I stated in my earliest thread. Do you even read the first few? If someone's actions were questionable, it was committing battery with multiple witnesses. That is what the woodshed is for......
posted by knowsalittle at 08:29 PM on June 26, 2008
Why does everyone call me Walt? Okay, yes, I know why ... it's actually an honour.
posted by wfrazerjr at 10:04 PM on June 26, 2008
Why does everyone call me Walt? Because you're really Keith Tkachuk?
posted by BoKnows at 11:16 PM on June 26, 2008
Try using that explanation in front of the judge during your trial on assault charges As far as I'm concerned, Chacon got verbally assaulted and defended himself physically posted by docshredder Couldn't have said it any better. I was going to say that Chacon was verbally assaulted but you beat me to it. Like I said before, I don't condone what Chacon did to Wade....but I do understand. I've been reamed before. I've been yelled at. But I haven't attacked someone because of it. And so have I but I won't ever just sit there and allow it to happen. I could care less who it is, I have enough respect & pride for myself that I would not let anyone talk down to me. I'm not saying that I would get physical but as a man, let me correct myself, as a human being, I am not going to allow another human being speak to me in a manner which would make me feel less than. Let me clarify: I'm not talking about someone just being stern with you like if your parent is speaking to you but if someone talks to you in a truly disrespectful manner while screaming obscenities, that's just not going to fly with me and I was raised to show respect but respect has to be earned. Watch your "Thoughts," they become words. Watch your "Words," they become actions. Watch your "Actions," they become habits. Watch your "Habits," they become character. Watch your "Character," for it becomes your Destiny." ~Feng Shui
posted by BornIcon at 06:14 AM on June 27, 2008
I am an avid Astro's fan, but the bottom line is they are stinking it up pretty bad right now... I'm sure there are a lot of guys who want to explode right now... The tension is so thick you can cut it with a knife... And thats from the top down... The expectations are in the crapper... I don't think Cooper is the guy for them and over all it isn't a good situation for anybody... Other than Burkman, the players are not performing... The leadoff spot is a revolving door... You have to stick with someone and let them work through it... Both those guys were wrong... Unfortunately, Chacon is the one that will pay the heavy price...
posted by bruce2ww at 08:08 AM on June 27, 2008
Couldn't have said it any better. I was going to say that Chacon was verbally assaulted but you beat me to it. You're confusing "assault" as a legal term with "assault" in the more general sense. Of the wide spectrum of behaviors that could be called "verbal assault" in the latter sense, in the United States, very few are legally actionable (some exceptions are threats, slanderous remarks, or sexual harassment). Your boss saying mean things to you, even at high volume, even using bad language, isn't legally actionable unless it happens to fit in one of those fairly well-defined categories: if your boss yells, "Nice tits!" or "I'm gonna cave your head in with this axe," or "I heard you raped your neighbor's beagle!", then you've got something legally actionable. If, instead, he yells, "You're a %!#$%! no-good bum!", you got nothing except maybe with your HR department. And even in the former case, I expect the only one that would have a chance of getting you off scot-free would be the one about the axe.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:15 AM on June 27, 2008
I was going to jump all over the term "verbal assault" too. There are very few things a person can say that are so vile they might excuse physical assault in response. What Wade said, according to Chacon, does not come anywhere close to that level. I can understand why Chacon blew his top, but that doesn't give him a free pass for physically attacking his boss.
posted by rcade at 08:38 AM on June 27, 2008
I could care less who it is, I have enough respect & pride for myself that I would not let anyone talk down to me. I'm not saying that I would get physical but as a man, let me correct myself, as a human being, I am not going to allow another human being speak to me in a manner which would make me feel less than. And therein lies the problem. If you're not confident enough in yourself that you can't take an ass-chewing without feeling less than a human being, the problem lies with you. I don't care what somebody says to you; you do not have the right to physically assault anybody, unless you're acting in self-defense. Silly little twits who take a cussin' and twist it into a reason to physically assault somebody are just weak people, who probably would have resorted to physical violence in some other area of their lives, and then tried to blame the victim: If he/she hadn't said that to me, I wouldn't have had to hit him/her. Not to say I'm siding with Wade here, because I'm not; he wears the dipshit hat in this little play, too, just like Chacon. Still, all he did was speak to Chacon; maybe not the way that Chacon liked to be spoken too, but you know what? Tough shit. All of us get spoken to in ways we don't like, and we man up and deal with it instead of acting like an ignorant child who demands to get his way. Making excuses for this kind of behavior is completely wrong.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 08:49 AM on June 27, 2008
If you're not confident enough in yourself that you can't take an ass-chewing without feeling less than a human being, the problem lies with you. Seconded. My only problem is making sure a smirk doesn't rise to the surface as my respect for the person sinks to the bottom. That shit was fine up through high school athletics. It's embarrassing when anyone tries it on an adult.
posted by yerfatma at 09:34 AM on June 27, 2008
There are very few things a person can say that are so vile they might excuse physical assault in response. What Wade said, according to Chacon, does not come anywhere close to that level. Very true. I'll just add that if Chacon claimed that he thought Wade was going to get physical (and that was a reasonable belief), then it is perfectly legal to strike first. It's a hard to prove guilt especially when someone is yelling in someone else's face.
posted by bperk at 09:50 AM on June 27, 2008
Can relate a personal experience that sorta parallels this one. Boss wanted to speak to me in office and I pretty much knew what it was about. I refused and told him to fire me or let me get back to my work. He then replied "Get your ass in the office right now" , so my boss found himself on the ground with a swollen eye. Packed up my stuff and left the building. Nobody pressed charges and no police were involved. Want to know the kicker, seven months later the vice president of the company asked me to come back and take my old boss's job. Seem this happen 2 more times since I left and finally the higher ups got fed up. Don't know Wade or Chacon and sometimes details get jumbled, especially when there is heated exchange. Both acted childish if the facts are correct in report. Regretted my actions and sure both parties are sorry for the incident. Before anyone jumps on Chacon , keep in mind when temper flare unreasonable behavior is surly to follow and the best course of action was to release Chacon and let it go at that. Wade has a history of talking to players in unprofessional matter and appears Chacon was not exactly praising GM and head coach for the demotion. Wade should have recognized what was going to happen and left it alone and got rid of him. Period.
posted by giveuptheghost at 10:15 AM on June 27, 2008
Can relate a personal experience that sorta parallels this one. Boss wanted to speak to me in office and I pretty much knew what it was about. I refused and told him to fire me or let me get back to my work. He then replied "Get your ass in the office right now" , so my boss found himself on the ground with a swollen eye. Packed up my stuff and left the building. Nobody pressed charges and no police were involved. My hero. You do know that story doesn't necessarily shine you in the best possible light, right? I agree with everything The_Black_Hand said. Absolutely the right position on the matter, no question. And anybody who doesn't think so should get their ass handed to them.
posted by THX-1138 at 10:57 AM on June 27, 2008
He said he regretted his actions, THX.
posted by rcade at 11:32 AM on June 27, 2008
Did you read the whole thing or just go off half cocked ? I regret what happened. Your opinion of me is not the point. I could care less what you think of me regarding my situation, and quite frankly I'm not seeking approval from you or anybody else. Story was to make a point and not to focus on my behavior. I'm saying, in certain situations things happen that we regret, and if situation was handles differently, a disastrous outcome would not have happen and there would be no comments about the fight in this thread.
posted by giveuptheghost at 11:38 AM on June 27, 2008
And so have I but I won't ever just sit there and allow it to happen. I could care less who it is, I have enough respect & pride for myself that I would not let anyone talk down to me. I'm not saying that I would get physical but as a man, let me correct myself, as a human being, I am not going to allow another human being speak to me in a manner which would make me feel less than. I just don't see it as some sort of judgment of your personal pride. If some wacko boss decides to flip out in front of your co-workers, and he starts cussing at you (or others), it's him that looks like the fool, not you. But if you were to tackle the guy, ring his neck and have to be restrained, then you both look like fools. Both Wade and Chacon had the chance to be the better man, er... human being, but neither one chose to. Let's not forget that Chacon has had a rough start in Houston, being demoted to the bullpen, I'm sure, sucks big time. And who knows how those two (Wade and Chacon) had communicated previously. This incident may have been brewing for a while now. But for Chacon to respond to the instigating like he did, only hurts himself and his reputation among the witnesses present. Ultimately, if you want to keep your job, don't beat the hell out of your boss. If your boss is a lunatic, it'll come out and he'll get his just due. Until then, do your job, do it well, and have a professional attitude. I believe you will come out on top when the shit does hit the fan. Well said, TBH.
posted by BoKnows at 02:36 PM on June 27, 2008
GEEZ, not many Ex-military people here I guess! LOL!
posted by volfire at 03:29 PM on June 27, 2008
If I work for you and you want to discuss something negative about my performance with me, go right ahead. If I work for you and you want to yell at me about something negative about my performance, go right ahead -- but I may yell back at you. If I work for you and you want to yell at me about something negative about my performance, and emphasize your point by getting right up in my face and attempting to intimidate me, go right ahead -- but the chances are good you will wind up on your ass. I don't need your job that badly.
posted by wfrazerjr at 03:34 PM on June 27, 2008
If I work for you and you want to yell at me about something negative about my performance, and emphasize your point by getting right up in my face and attempting to intimidate me, go right ahead Even though I'd react differently, I understand that position. It seems like it's a split decision here at SpoFi. Admittedly, I've read only the two articles in this thread regarding the incident, but where does it say that Wade was right up in Chacon's face attempting to intimidate him? That seems like the line between responding rationally or not. I'm sure we could all speculate what was said, but Chacon admitted that he "lost his cool". And that he regrets his actions, so by saying those things, it seems he knew he was wrong. At the very least, I do admire Chacon for dealing with the consequences, and knowing that his time in Houston is done. But my guess is that if he signs with a different team, and again under performs, that new team may not give him the ability to verbally defend himself. They'll just cut him. See ya. Bye.
posted by BoKnows at 03:55 PM on June 27, 2008
GEEZ, not many Ex-military people here I guess! LOL! If you're in the military, and you punch out your boss, do you get a free pass? LOL!
posted by lil_brown_bat at 04:10 PM on June 27, 2008
They'll just cut him. See ya. Bye. Exactly, that's the way Wade should have handled the refusal at the very beginning. Look, you already had a pitcher pissed (Wade had to know that) off about the demotion, and then his refusal to go into your office sends you a clear message (unless your a idiot) that the guy is going to be confrontational. Walk away and be the professional, sign the paperwork and get the guy off the team before the incident give sports writers across American and bloggers on Sportfi something to write about. Moral of this story-don't make matter worst than they have to be. Don't ever poke a stick at a angry dog. Geez-this a no brainer. Dah!
posted by giveuptheghost at 04:14 PM on June 27, 2008
Look, you already had a pitcher pissed (Wade had to know that) off about the demotion, and then his refusal to go into your office sends you a clear message (unless your a idiot) that the guy is going to be confrontational. The refusal to go into office is enough to cut him because it is clearly insubordination. But they are adults, I doubt Wade expected Chacon to act like a child and resort to physicalities. The article seems to imply that Chacon was given a chance to privately discuss his performance and maybe, who knows, come to a reasonable decision regarding his future. Instead, Chacon decided to act like a baby and refused to talk about the issues and realities he was producing. Wade should have realized then what kind of person/infant he was dealing with instead of getting into a screaming match. But with that said, it's not an excuse for Chacon's actions. And unfortunately for Chacon, this will follow him for the remainder of his career.
posted by BoKnows at 04:30 PM on June 27, 2008
I doubt Wade expected Chacon to act like a child and resort to physicalities. I'll comment on what is written in article and not on what Wade thoughts were prior to getting knocked on his ass. Maybe your right, still doesn't diminish the fact that Wade was dealing with a volatile situation and should have backed away. If I was to suppose, Chacon was probably bad mouthing the GM and Manager and pissed them off. So they decided to extend their authority, and put Chacon in his place and let him know who's the boss. Which is within their rights to do, because they run the team. But, Wade has a responsibility to take the higher ground and not make it worse.
posted by giveuptheghost at 04:53 PM on June 27, 2008
I'll comment on what is written in article and not on what Wade thoughts were prior to getting knocked on his ass. Okay then. Tell me, where does the article mention this: Wade has a history of talking to players in unprofessional matter and appears Chacon was not exactly praising GM and head coach for the demotion. posted by giveuptheghost at 10:15 AM CDT on June 27 Look, we can agree to disagree on some of the details here, but don't try to nit-pick my posts/thoughts when you have speculated intentions as well. Thanks for the discussion, I hope no fists start to fly.
posted by BoKnows at 05:27 PM on June 27, 2008
I hope no fists start to fly Just not in the lunch room ok, I'm trying to eat here.
posted by irunfromclones at 05:31 PM on June 27, 2008
Wade has a history of talking to players in unprofessional matter If you read the comments being posted in response to the original story, there's a great one from a Phillie fan who says Wade has been prone to this sort of thing since he was GM there. I have also heard and read the same complaints, and apparently Scott Rolen hated Wade with a passion. Source wfrazier from previous post Chacon was not exactly praising GM and head coach for the demotion. When Chacon learned Sunday of the Astros' plans to drop him from the rotation, he characterized the decision as "horse (expletive)." Through agent Dan Horwits, Chacon began lobbying for a trade-Source Houston Chronicle Now I don't mean to nit pic , but it does sounds to me like somebody is pretty pissed off when they say horse (expletive) and I'm sure wfrazier would not post something not to be true about Wade in Philadelphia.
posted by giveuptheghost at 07:04 PM on June 27, 2008
GEEZ, not many Ex-military people here I guess! LOL! I am a decorated veteran of the United States Navy who served in Desert Sheild and Desert Storm. I've been shot twice and survived a helicopter crash that left me with five pins that hold my right thumb onto my hand. Unfortunately, I can't speak for anybody else here. LOL!
posted by The_Black_Hand at 08:34 PM on June 28, 2008
I am a decorated veteran of the United States Navy who served in Desert Sheild and Desert Storm. I've been shot twice and survived a helicopter crash that left me with five pins that hold my right thumb onto my hand. Thank you for your service to your country.
posted by giveuptheghost at 09:07 PM on June 28, 2008
I've been shot twice and survived a helicopter crash that left me with five pins that hold my right thumb onto my hand. I kind of hate to ask this, but is that the origin of your nickname?
posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:29 AM on June 29, 2008
GEEZ, not many Ex-military people here I guess! LOL! If you're in the military, and you punch out your boss, do you get a free pass? LOL! It's possible I'm the one reading it wrong, but I think Vol was suggesting that military people have their "boss" shouting at them frequently without resorting to a physical response.
posted by Mr Bismarck at 11:18 AM on June 29, 2008
It's possible I'm the one reading it wrong, but I think Vol was suggesting that military people have their "boss" shouting at them frequently without resorting to a physical response. I'm only a 2-year Army guy, but I have spent the last 41 years working closely with the military as an employee of a defense contractor. When I say close, I mean it. I have more sea duty than a lot of Navy guys, I spent a number of years working side-by-side with the USMC teaching them how to maintain electronic warfare systems for their aircraft, and right now I work closely with the Army developing and improving aircraft survivability systems. I have not once in all this time heard a military leader, officer or NCO, "lose it" at one of his troops. The good ones know the value of "praise in public, punish in private". There is really no need of yelling at one of your subordinates, since you can always use other disciplinary methods. The above does not apply to "boot camp" or basic training, but there the yelling is not so much to chastise as to train. Once you are out of training and on the job, you are treated professionally.
posted by Howard_T at 02:20 PM on June 29, 2008
The full quote rcade excerpted from: "Absolutely not," McLane said. "If you shoved a policeman down or any other public servant, can you imagine shoving a principal in a school? It was in full view of several players. Players pulled Chacon and restrained him. There’s absolutely no way. You can’t defy authority. Even if he disagreed with what they wanted him to do, he should have had the courage to sit down and talk to him." Really, Drayton? You're equating Ed Wade with a policeman? Someone who puts his or her life on the line for public service? Or a principal? Someone who has devoted his or her life to the betterment of children? You're saying the general manager of a baseball team falls in the same category? Drayton, it sounds like you have a general manager who sucks at handling players, and decided he wanted to play the big man and curse out another grown man in front of everyone else. I'm not backing Chacon here. He should have gone into the manager's office to discuss whatever needed to be discussed. But Wade just as easily could have turned his back, gone upstairs and cut Chacon loose -- he had already been insubordinate. Instead, Wade pressed the issue and he got dumped on his ass. One more thing. I hate it when people say you can't defy authority. Bullshit. You can do whatever the hell you like if you a) believe in your own position enough and b) are willing to accept the consequences. Sounds to me like Chacon is just fine with the outcome.