04/24/24
October 27, 2007
Bruins' Patrice Bergeron Leaves Game on Stretcher: In tonight's game, the Boston forward was knocked out after being driven from behind into the glass by Philadelphia Flyers defenseman Randy Jones. "Patrice has regained consciousness and has been taken to Massachusetts General Hospital," said team physician Dr. Bertram Zarins. (See the video)
I want to be pissed at Jones. Or maybe I want to be pissed at the Flyers as a team, because this is the third time this year they've done something like this (see Downie, Boulerice). But mostly I hope Patrice is okay. He's a tough person, and I bet we'll see him on the ice again soon.
posted by Samsonov14 at 01:52 AM on October 28, 2007
Big over reaction here. Take a look at the video and also see Jones' response (comments) on the Flyers website. Even Bruin fans are saying they know it was unintentional. As far as Boulerice, the Flyers really condoned what he did by FIRING him 2 days after the hit. Downie was reassigned. Gagne, Briere, Knuble, Richards, Carter, Smith, and Timmonen "dirty motherf*ckers"? Give me a break.
posted by FlyerFan at 02:10 AM on October 28, 2007
Jones has no history of being a douche. As far as I know, he DID A THING THAT IS AWFUL and MADE A BIG MISTAKE. Bummer for everyone involved. He should have seen the numbers on Bergy's jersey.
posted by Samsonov14 at 02:28 AM on October 28, 2007
Big over reaction here. Take a look at the video and also see Jones' response (comments) on the Flyers website. Even Bruin fans are saying they know it was unintentional. Flyer Fan As a Bruins fan (who was watching the game), my thoughts were: Hope he wakes up Hope he isn't paralyzed Hope he plays again Jones' statement on the website was released at the game before the second intermission. It was preemptive and I'm glad he released it. However, I don't believe the video supports it was unintentional. Sure, maybe it was out of character and a poor choice, ok. But it sure looks more like an intentional hit from behind into the boards of a defenseless player. At least to me, this looks like a better description than "he was checking up and it was accidental".
posted by endorfin at 07:07 AM on October 28, 2007
OK, I am a born and bred Flyers fan, however I don't(and cannot) condone dirty hits. That said, hockey is a rough sport played at a high speed and guys will get hurt. However, you don't want to see boarding and leaving the skates and such. It is certainly unlike the obviously malicious stick whacking of the head like a couple years ago, yes he should've pulled up. This is hockey we are talking about. I really do hope the guy is alright, and I also hope his aggressor learns to play in a gentlemanley fashion. Its not like the Flyers want this kind of dirty mystique among their players, we after all are trying to gain fans right?
posted by GoBirds at 08:03 AM on October 28, 2007
Big over reaction here. Take a look at the video I saw it in HD. It's basically an instructional video entitled "What Not to Do Near the Boards (If You Want to Play in Succeeding Periods)". It may have been at high speed and it may happen all the time, but there's a reason boarding's a penalty. I have no idea if the Flyer player is a goon or not, but that wins a suspension even for Mother Theresa.
posted by yerfatma at 09:11 AM on October 28, 2007
There's been countless times watching hockey when the announcer goes off, "Wow, he could have really injured that player by hitting him from behind into the boards." This is far from the first time I've seen a hit like this, and it's unfortunate he was injured. But what do you, as the NHL, do about these kind of hits. Any number of the hit-from-behind into the board plays could have ended like this, but they didn't. Should the other dirty hits be fined and/or suspended, too? Or is it purely the injury apsect which brings this into light?
posted by jmd82 at 09:52 AM on October 28, 2007
All these Flyer apologist should take a break from defending this inexcusable violence. There is absolutely no room in the game for this thuggery! It's no coincidence this Flyer squad has had 3 Major incidences of this type in only 10 Games. Unfortunately the mandate from on top to keep it physical but "clean" hasn't seemed to translate to the players on the ice. The Flyer turn-around this season could be something special instead it's being diminished by this unacceptable rebirth of the "Broad Street Bullies" it wasn't acceptable the 1st time around and this version even less so. I guess the Hockey God's weren't looking because the Flyers managed to win this game and if a broken nose and severe concussion is catching a break from what could have been a life threatening injury or career ending makes Jones somehow less culpable is an absurdity beyond belief. I think Grum's suggestions to have the team share some of the punishment is perfectly in line with the display put on by the Flyers. To say the team atmosphere doesn't encourage these incidents is to deny the truth! If I were a Flyer Fan I'd be embarrassed.
posted by skydivedad at 10:53 AM on October 28, 2007
Any number of the hit-from-behind into the board plays could have ended like this, but they didn't. Should the other dirty hits be fined and/or suspended, too? Yes. That is one of the few plays there should be zero room for the ref to use his discretion. You hit someone from behind within a couple feet of the boards, you're risking their life. There's a reason the announcers say that.
posted by yerfatma at 10:57 AM on October 28, 2007
I've gotta add this to the mix, because I saw the same reactions by the teammates of the injured player in the previously mentioned "dirty hits" too ... the first thing done is to find the offender (or the closest opponent) and rough it up??? How serious does it have to be before the players will check on their own guy before seeking retribution? Bergeron was clearly hurt by the way he laid there after the hit. At least the scrum broke out further up the ice aferwards, not like the Downie-McAmmond incident where they were pretty much stomping on the lifeless McAmmond!?!? Frankly, this is as frightening to me as the hits-from-behind or head-shots that get us here in the first place. Whether it's an opponent or a teammate, apparently we have no regard for another person in the uniform.
posted by Spitztengle at 12:58 PM on October 28, 2007
Thuggery? Seriously? Get over it. Hoepfully Bergeron is okay. Jones should be suspended, but let's get real. This play happens at least 15 times a game. It's just unfortunate that Bergeron stopped short of the glass and Jones continued with his check. Yes, it's wrong but it happens all the time. Bergeron gets against the glass and play continues. But a player on your team would never do such a thing. Bullshit, watch any time a puck gets dumped. As for Boulerice and Downie, there's no place for that crap and they deserve to be cut.
posted by SummersEve at 01:49 PM on October 28, 2007
It's just unfortunate that Bergeron stopped short of the glass and Jones continued with his check. You forgot to finish the sentence: "...continued with his check from behind." He was always going to hit him from behind. He had no intention of making a legal check, because he was never going to see the front of Bergeron. It was going to be illegal and he just ended up making it illegal AND dangerous. It wasn't like Bergeron turned his back on Jones at the last moment, and Jones couldn't avoid hitting him from behind. Jones chased Bergeron into the boards from behind and "finished his check" by driving him head first into the glass. He put his forearms into the back of Bergeron's head/neck and pushed. That's why I think it's a dirty f*cking hit, and that's why I'm f*cking pissed off about it. But a player on your team would never do such a thing. Bullshit, watch any time a puck gets dumped. No, players on my favourite team have done dirty stuff (see: Domi, Tie). However, three players on one team in one season? Nope. Hasn't happened yet. Except to the 2007 Philadelphia Flyers.
posted by grum@work at 02:00 PM on October 28, 2007
This play happens at least 15 times a game. I haven't an idea what sport your watching but this kind of buffoonery doesn't even happen 15 times league wide in a season. It is complete thuggery, a disgrace to the league and to the great game of Hockey! We issue lifetime bans in the adult leagues I play in for a lot less.
posted by skydivedad at 02:33 PM on October 28, 2007
Hockey executives need to bring fighting back to hockey, real fighting were the combatants fought until one established an obvious advantage and would seriously injure the other combatant if the fight was allowed to continue. If executives continue to allow current control of games, a player is going to get killed due to a cheap shot. If a player wanting to take a cheap shot realized that the opposing team would immediately put a crooked nosed, big fisted goon on the ice specifically to fight him until one combatant was defenseless, the cheap shot likely would not happen.
posted by Cave_Man at 05:04 PM on October 28, 2007
Since nobody else has mentioned it, Jones comes up on one skate to finish the check (not quite leaving his skates, but adds injury to injury). You just don't check a guy against the boards when his back is turned like that for this very reason - too much chance of injury, and there's a penalty for it. But when a team has a series of incidents, the league has to step-in and issue punishments.
posted by kokaku at 05:31 PM on October 28, 2007
Somehow, suspending an offender in a case like this seems inadequate. Perhaps the league ought to mandate that not only the offender is suspended, but also the player on the offending team who is most comparable to the injured player should also be suspended. Make the suspensions equal in length to the number of games the injured player misses. This might be draconian, but I would bet there would be a drastic decrease in dirty or accidental hits that cause injury. In other words, players might let up a little, and that would not be a bad thing. There could still be contact and checking, but the high sticks, boarding, and the like would be eliminated.
posted by Howard_T at 07:04 PM on October 28, 2007
Thuggery!? Better watch out skydivedad! rcade and company(and I use that term loosely) are gonna be off to the races. Rcade the term thuggery can and will be used in referencing people other than blacks.See footnote-(Oct.14-Joey Porter discussion):
posted by chumpn80 at 07:47 PM on October 28, 2007
Yes, Randy Jones is a buffoonery-filled goon. He's just hidden it his whole career but decided now was the time to show it. You're all right. And no one ever gets hit from behind on a dump-in. And if they did, SDD's league would hold a hearing and they'd never be allowed to play in his adult league again. And they'd be devastated, I'm sure.
posted by SummersEve at 08:38 PM on October 28, 2007
Randy Jones' action on the ice in this incident certainly is out of character for him, your sarcasm aside, which just belays the point. The team encouraged his action directly or not and they should also be held accountable. In MLB the manager can get suspended when he has his pitcher hit a batter something similar in the NHL is in order.
posted by skydivedad at 09:05 PM on October 28, 2007
Hockey executives need to bring fighting back to hockey, real fighting were the combatants fought until one established an obvious advantage and would seriously injure the other combatant if the fight was allowed to continue. I'm not sure if you've been paying attention, but fighting in the NHL is WAY up this year. And, in case you missed it, the kind of fights you talk about are still going on. Koci was bleeding like a stuck pig.
posted by grum@work at 10:20 PM on October 28, 2007
Jones shouldn't have finished the hit, but I swear Bergeron shouldn't have turned like that. I'm surprised no one else has mentioned it. Not to blame the victim per se, but he's got to protect himself a little better. That said, Jones should receive a suspension, but I don't see this on the level of Boulerice or Downie. Give him 5 and for the love of tap dancing Jesus, start suspending the coaches. Big fines and make them sit out some games.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 11:39 PM on October 28, 2007
i'm not a hockey fan but is it just me or is haockey getting dirtier and dirtier.
posted by rockstar2001 at 02:28 AM on October 29, 2007
Never watched a haockey game in my life. Its hockey man! I love the Flyers, and yes I am embarrassed by the recent "thuggery". Theres nothing wrong with rough, hard-nosed hockey, sometimes it goes too far yes. However we can't just lay blame on the entire organization, player suspensions and fines are sufficient, theres no way coach Stevens told Jones to put the guy out in that manner.
posted by GoBirds at 03:19 AM on October 29, 2007
The Flyers organization has been promoting this crap on the whole since the 70's. If you want to clean your image up #1 stop refering to yourselves as things like "The Legion of Doom" #2 Stop making "Dirty" hits. Yes Hockey has a place for "rough" play, just not "dirty" play. Rockstar I dont think hockey is getting "Dirtier" but I think in general, the single incidents seem to be getting more Heinous.
posted by firecop at 05:10 AM on October 29, 2007
Man the Flyer haters have surfaced quick. Jones was headed toward him before he was anywhere near the boards. He also (watch the video) stop taking strides, the only thing that made it boarding was "the victim" kept his back to Jones in an obvious attempt to draw a penalty. It happened in an instant. Some of you are acting like Jones took a run at him. And why do some of you continue to address the actions of players the Flyers have let go or reassigned? Every thing was ok when the Flyers were getting injured left and right last year and in last place, but now things are different. Firecop, give it a rest. 1 of the first moves Holmgren made was to let long time Flyer bruiser Donald Brashear go and bring in guys like Jason Smith and Kimmo Timonen. Are you actually making a reference to the broad street bullies? Do you think management, during those years, would have fired or reassigned the offending players this year? And the Doom line was a scoring line. Aside from Lindros, LeClair and Renberg were hardly fighters. Poor fellow, must be a Ranger fan. You sound like the Russians that year they quit midgame "they're to rough, we're going home".
posted by FlyerFan at 09:34 AM on October 29, 2007
in an obvious attempt to draw a penalty Plus the sweater he was wearing was so slutty.
posted by yerfatma at 09:49 AM on October 29, 2007
I just read that Darrien Hatcher said this type of play happens 15 times a game. I want to make it clear that I made that statement before he did. In fact, maybe he reads sportsfilter and stole it from me. ...the Flyers have let go or reassigned... In all fairness, they've only "reassigned" them to the AHL so they don't have to pay them. They've been bringing both of them up for scheduled NHL games so they can serve their suspensions then sending them back down. I'll give Downie one more chance to get his head on straight because the kid can play if he decides he doesn't want to be an idiot. But Boulerice should be gone. He's going to get Danny Briere or Simon Gagne killed for the crap he pulls. Plus, because of Boulerice, Randy Jones has become the whipping-boy for all that is wrong with the NHL.
posted by SummersEve at 10:12 AM on October 29, 2007
Darien Hatcher. Now there's a trusted source of all that is dirty in the NHL. Kind of like Mike Tyson discussing the merit of low blows and ear biting. Cluade Julian summed it up perfectly. It wasn't clean in the view of Bruins head coach Claude Julien. "I don't think that's accidental," he said Saturday. "So, yes, it was a dirty hit." Colin Campbell needs to do the right thing and soon.
posted by skydivedad at 10:45 AM on October 29, 2007
Oh get real, sdd, watch something other than amateur hockey and you'll see this was an accident: A poorly timed collision in a sport that moves fast, and a skater who put himself in a vulnerable position. Seriously, you are not being honest with yourself if you don't think that this play doesn't happen regularly. Next time you watch a pro game, watch when a puck goes in the corner. Watch the guy play the puck and watch another guy hit him from behind. Whether or not you like it, or think it's right, it's part of the game. Watch how the first player puts himself up against the glass so he absorbs the hit. It's the first thing you're taught when you play check-hockey: Don't stop and bend over two feet from the glass. I'm repeating myself, and just getting frustrated by people who won't take off their team-colored glasses. If Bergeron goes all the way to the glass it is a routine play. Jones may have been over-eager, but he wasn't trying to be dirty. No one is more apologetic than he is. He isn't a dirty player, he wasn't trying to be dirty, he was just trying make a routine play -- whether it's right or not it happens every period of every game -- where a defender stands an opposing player up against the glass. If you can't admit that doesn't happen regularly, you are not being honest with yourself and are just piling on. Hockey is so fast-paced you say you play so you have an idea just how incredibly fast things develop. So you really think Stevens said to Jones on the bench, "Hey, when Bergeron gets near the boards, bend him over and shove him head first into the boards."? And I think Julien might be a bit biased. Just a guess. Colin Campbell will suspend Jones and he will go overboard with the suspension, because he's a puppet scared to death of the Globe and Mail and TSN. Two games would be the correct call. Anything over 5 games is ridiculous. I can't say I would be against fining the team, again, because of what Boulerice did. As previously stated, I don't want to see him back in the NHL. They put him on the ice and have to live with the consequences. I do, however, hate to see Jones taking the bulk of the blame.
posted by SummersEve at 11:27 AM on October 29, 2007
And, in case you missed it, the kind of fights you talk about are still going on. Koci was bleeding like a stuck pig. Memo to self: do not pick fight with 6'9", 250 pound Slovakian dude.
posted by holden at 11:32 AM on October 29, 2007
I have absolutely zero doubt I've seen tons more NHL Games than you have by an exponential # and not just my homer squad. That Flyer Kool-Aide seems to have clouded your judgement. Stop blaming the victim and Randy Jones deserves the bulk of the blame. Here's my final word on this stuff. Savagery doesn't belong in the game. Legal clean hard hitting and enforcing does.
posted by skydivedad at 11:43 AM on October 29, 2007
Good debating skills. Way to play the body and not the puck. Well done. Savagery doesn't belong in the game, but if you're going to compare Randy Jones to Jesse Boulerice you obviously have no clue what you're talking about in this situation. I could say say a lot of things here, but I'll keep it above the belt. You prove my point -- and show your own true colors -- by going after me in such a shallow manner.
posted by SummersEve at 11:52 AM on October 29, 2007
I have absolutely zero doubt I've seen tons more NHL Games than you have by an exponential # and not just my homer squad. And you can back that up how?
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 02:02 PM on October 29, 2007
PHILADELPHIA (AP) 10/15-- Jesse Boulerice, who last week was given the longest single-season suspension in NHL history for hitting a player in the face with his stick, was placed on waivers by the Flyers on Monday. My mistake, he obviously wasn't picked up. All i saw was that they did waive him. "Savagery doesn't belong in the game. Legal clean hard hitting and enforcing does." Who has created the measuring stick to decide which is which, you?
posted by FlyerFan at 02:49 PM on October 29, 2007
I don't need to prove a thing to you YYM. Grow Up!
posted by skydivedad at 02:52 PM on October 29, 2007
I'm repeating myself, and just getting frustrated by people who won't take off their team-colored glasses. Hello, pot! Have you met kettle yet? You two should get along fabulously! You're absolutely right, Douche; Flyers fans seem to think it was no big deal, while everybody else thinks it was dirty. Therefore, all the non-Flyer fans must be wrong. Next time, leave your petard at home. None of us were inside Jones' head, so we don't know what he was thinking, and to act like we do would just make us look like total asshats. However, the fact remains that he bashed Bergeron into the boards headfirst, and will now have to suffer the consequences, whether anybody likes it or not. It was an illegal hit, and no matter how many excuses get made for Jones, it doesn't look accidental.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 03:39 PM on October 29, 2007
Apparently the NHL didn't think it was all that malicious (at least in intent), as the two game suspension handed out to Jones doesn't seem to be the type of suspension that would accompany something that the league thinks is more of a black mark on the game. Campbell's comments on this seem to fit with that interpretation:
"While it is my determination that Jones did not intend to injure his opponent, he did deliver a hard check to a player who was in a vulnerable position," said NHL Senior Executive Vice President of Hockey Operations Colin Campbell in a press release. "There have been suggestions by some that this hit was comparable to incidents earlier this season where players received significant game suspensions for blows to the head. These comparisons and suggestions are wrong," Campbell added.
posted by holden at 03:45 PM on October 29, 2007
I don't need to prove a thing to you YYM. Grow Up! It is obvious age does not improve one's ability to argue.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 05:05 PM on October 29, 2007
"There have been suggestions by some that this hit was comparable to incidents earlier this season where players received significant game suspensions for blows to the head. These comparisons and suggestions are wrong," Campbell added. No arguing with logic. Along those lines: I don't need to prove a thing to you YYM. Grow Up! You kinda do. You've made a bunch of statements and backed them with nothing more than an Appeal to Authority of sorts, the Authority being you. Anyone outside of Jones' head doesn't know the intent, so it's all opinion and everyone's entitled to one, even the people who incorrectly disagree with me.
posted by yerfatma at 05:07 PM on October 29, 2007
It is obvious age does not improve one's ability to argue. Always hit 'em with Thoreau*, kid: "Grey hair does not confer wisdom." *Good skater, could handle the puck, refused to get into the rough stuff, much like Ned Braden.
posted by yerfatma at 05:09 PM on October 29, 2007
Which bunch of statements are you referencing yerfatma? I count one that was a counter to the accusation that I only watch amateur hockey and was directed at a poster other than YYM. He stuck his nose in where it wasn't invited, much like you have in your reply. I "kinda" owe you or YYM nada, zip, nothing. I'm willing to overlook the last few insults and let this drop but I doubt you have that capacity. Really, if anyone on this sight considers himself an omnipotent "authority" it's probably you above all others.
posted by skydivedad at 05:56 PM on October 29, 2007
He stuck his nose in where it wasn't invited, much like you have in your reply. Hi, and welcome to the Internet.
posted by yerfatma at 06:33 PM on October 29, 2007
Always hit 'em with Thoreau*, kid: "Grey hair does not confer wisdom." Had a rough run in with Walden a while back. It didn't make me too fond of Mr. Thoreau.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 06:36 PM on October 29, 2007
but I swear Bergeron shouldn't have turned like that. If you can't admit that doesn't happen regularly, you are not being honest with yourself and are just piling on. you'll see this was an accident Bergeron didn't "turn". He was going straight at the boards the whole time. He played the puck around the boards and then Jones hit him from behind. It doesn't happen "regularly". Players do not "regularly" drive opposing players head first into the boards/glass from behind. If they did, there would be incidents like this all the time. Thankfully, they are still rare. It wasn't an accident. Watch the replay again. At no time does Jones deviate from his intended point of contact, which was Bergeron's back. He accentuates the hit by pushing off with one leg when he finishes by shoving his gloves into the back of Bergeron's head/neck. I think the 2-game suspension is only because Jones doesn't have a record for this sort of thing. I don't agree with it (I think 5 should have been the minimum), but I'm not in charge of the NHL. That said, if he does it again, sit him for 20 as well.
posted by grum@work at 07:15 PM on October 29, 2007
grum, perhaps "turn" is the wrong word - he should have turned, in fact - but Beregeron put himself is a terrible, terrible position in the event that he would be hit. Whether to draw a penalty or not, it's just poor judgement - it IS a fast, hard game and chances are good that you're going to get hurt if you don't protect yourself. And I think that the NHL would be suspension happy and actually put in MORE than 2 games if they were catering to popular opinion and public relations. I think they see it similarly - the hit was bad, but it didn't seem to be a question of intent to injure. If the expectation is that people shouldn't be hit if they're in a vulnerable position, then I have about 10 minutes of Scott Stevens highlights to show you. He didn't have to hit someone from behind to hurt them in a vulnerable position. It doesn't happen "regularly". Players do not "regularly" drive opposing players head first into the boards/glass from behind. I hate to say it, grum - but hits of the velocity and position of Jones' do seem to happen all the time - the difference is that Beregeron was bent over with his head down and his back to the defender.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:46 AM on October 30, 2007
I've always argued in favor of the hitter. But I guess whatever I say will still be taken as a statement from a fan. I suppose that's fair. When people were defending Belichick, I felt the same way about them. (No, I did not just compare the crimes, just our reactions, so don't even go down that road.) I will say more often than not, I've argued in favor of the hitter. I don't want to sound like the head of the Randy Jones defense team, but I also hate seeing a player -- any player -- getting fingered as the posterboy for a play that happens regularly because, in his case, a player was injured. Checks from behind are bad, no argument. Jones should not have done what he did, again no argument. He should have been suspended for two games. The league should examine hits from behind because they do happen a lot. That doesn't mean I think they're okay. I just don't think you can string a guy up because of the outcome. But we are talking about a league that bases the length of a particular penalty on blood or no blood, so I suppose reactionary is part of the M.O. Here's what I think happened. As has been earlier stated, no one was in Jones' head. For all I know Bergeron could have molested his dog. this is just an attempt at a recreation. (CSI SpoFi) If you watch Bergeron as he comes across the blueline, he looks at the defender to his left. As he goes into the corner, he's expecting that defender to follow the play and likely deliver the hit. He did not expect Jones, who is coming from across the ice to send the hit. So Bergeron is bracing for a hit coming from his left, so he stops and sort of spins a bit to the right which would get him out of the line of the other defender. But Jones is coming for a hit from behind, by the letter of the law illegal, but still a routine play. He's not expecting Bergeron to stop. Bergeron's stop is quick, hence the snow from his skate. Jones is guilty of not adjusting, perhaps not paying attention as he had every intention of hitting Bergeron from behind. But he did not expect Bergeron to stop as he did. If you picture Bergeron up against the glass as Jones finishes his check, it isn't a brutal hit. But Bergeron stopped and Jones didn't The league needs to address this. The league needs to both make players aware that they can't hit from behind and they also need to be aware when their back is to the play. They need to be aware of what's going on at all times. Expecting a hit from behind is sort of like crossing the street in a crosswalk. If I'm walking and you're driving, it's you're fault if you hit me. But that doesn't mean I'm going to cross just assuming you'll stop and I have o plan accordingly. Likewise, players should be ready for a hit from behind near the boards, and coaches should teach them as such. Doesn't mean the hitter isn't at fault, just means everyone would be safer. The whole ounce-of-prevention thing. I've read before that some high school and college coaches actually teach their kids to turn their backs at the glass to protect the puck. That's a horrible idea. But I digress. the accusation that I only watch amateur hockey SDD, I didn't mean to imply you only watch amateur hockey. I know you do a lot with amateur hockey, and the rules interpretations are different in pro as compared to high school and college. That is why I said watch anything other than amateur hockey.
posted by SummersEve at 10:49 AM on October 30, 2007
the difference is that Beregeron was bent over with his head down and his back to the defender. AND that Jones put his hands/stick on the back of Bergeron's head/neck and pushed. This is not an injury because of something Bergeron did. This is an injury because of something Jones did. but Beregeron put himself is a terrible, terrible position in the event that he would be hit. By playing the puck that was resting against the boards and sweeping it behind the net to his defenseman? I'm sorry, but it should not be considered a "terrible position" if the only way to play the puck is to face the boards. by the letter of the law illegal, but still a routine play. I'm sorry, but you can't call something "illegal" and "routine", unless there is a parade of players going to penalty box for that hit every night. There isn't, so it's not a "routine" play to hit a player from behind. It is routine to hit a player from the side against the boards. It is routine to press against a player and pin him against the boards. It is not routine to push with your hands/stick against the players neck/head and drive them into the boards. He's not expecting Bergeron to stop. What did he expect him to do when he was playing the puck? Skate through the boards and take a seat in the stands? as he had every intention of hitting Bergeron from behind See, and that's why it's a f*cking chicken sh*t hit. The fact that he planned to break the rules means he's got no case for "accidental". None. Likewise, players should be ready for a hit from behind near the boards, and coaches should teach them as such. I'm not sure what you think Bergeron should do here. Are you suggesting he abandon the idea of playing the puck and just skate right into the boards and await getting hit from behind? His job at that moment is to get the puck to his defenseman. He does that without altering his direction. If he doesn't do that (play the puck in front of him), he'll get chewed out by his coach. I understand that Jones didn't intend to injure Bergeron, but there has to be consequences when you commit an illegal act that DOES injure a player. We aren't talking about someone taking a slap shot and hitting an opposing player in the face. The fault lies entirely with Jones. To suggest that Bergeron could have done something different to prevent someone else from breaking the rules is silly.
posted by grum@work at 11:46 PM on October 30, 2007
No it's not silly, as WeedyMcSmokey indicated. 10 out of 10 players (except 1 attempting to draw a penalty) would have turned to skate out of the area. Did we expect him to skate through the boards and take a seat in the stands? No you're almost making the point for us. What player in this league stops and stands there after he plays the puck from the that area? Why would he? 9 1/2 out of 10 players would have chipped the puck along and actually got out of the way of the hit. Players following others into that area are trying to time they're hit with the other players turn/move. What he did was the equivalent of a Baseball player making a subtle leaning motion into the strike zone to take 1 on the shoulder (knowing a high inside pitch is coming), and then wondering why he got hit in the head. Should the pitcher be throwing high and inside? Maybe not, but if the batter doesn't make the wrong move (leaning in to the ball instead of ducking), he doesn't get hit in the head. Now try to imagine assigning blame in that scenario. There are drills in Hockey that teach the exact thing we are discussing. They go over them time and time again. If we all know that if a player goes in to the boards/corners to battle for a puck bent over with his back towards the game his risk of injury is 10 times higher, don't you think a pro knows it? If he chips that puck along and turns out of there we wouldn't be talking about this. Is this all Jones fault? Not by a long shot. Bergeron made a terrible error, one that he will not likely make again, unless he is trying to draw a penalty. While the intent of the Jones hit remains in question, there is no question that Chuck Kobasew went after Jones to pummel him with his fists afterward, what the f*ck do you think his intentions were?
posted by FlyerFan at 02:35 AM on October 31, 2007
It's Magically Homerriffic! Jones was the innocent victim, while Bergeron shrewdly and deviously enticed him into the hit! Shed a tear for poor, poor Randy Jones, and bust out the brickbats aplenty for the sneaky, underhanded Bergeron! And what the hell happened to the other half of that hockey player?
posted by The_Black_Hand at 05:25 AM on October 31, 2007
Call it what you want Black hand, but calling the Flyers dirty motherf*ckers is haterific at best. Jones leads all Flyers defensemen in points and leads the Flyers in +/- at +8. He is far from jesse boulerice and far from a goon. And I'll say it again, if Bergeron played that puck as he was trained to this topic wouldn't exist. Grum you mentioned Domi, but what was your opinion of the headhunting forearm Darcy Tucker gave to Sami Kapanen a few years back? How many games did he get for that? Domi and Tucker being on your favorite team and you're calling the 07' Flyers dirty MF's. Get real.
posted by FlyerFan at 11:41 AM on October 31, 2007
Is this all Jones fault? Not by a long shot. Bergeron made a terrible error, one that he will not likely make again, unless he is trying to draw a penalty. Yes, it is all Jones' fault. He is the one that hit Bergeron. Trying to pass ANY of the blame to Bergeron is probably the dumbest response you could make. I'm sure you thought that McAmmond deserves some of the blame for the Downie hit, and that Kesler shouldn't have put his face in the way of Boulerice's stick. After all, if they had learned their lessons properly, McAmmond would have known to, uh, never go behind the net and Kesler would have known to, um, f*ck, I don't know what he could have done to avoid getting the crosscheck in the face. But I'm sure you have some deranged explanation... And I'll say it again, if Bergeron played that puck as he was trained to this topic wouldn't exist. No, it wouldn't exist if Jones didn't decide to break the rules and hit Bergeron from behind. You can spin it all you want, but Jones was the one breaking the rules (with full intent, by the way, since he NEVER was going to hit him from any other direction). Grum you mentioned Domi, but what was your opinion of the headhunting forearm Darcy Tucker gave to Sami Kapanen a few years back? How many games did he get for that? Domi and Tucker being on your favorite team and you're calling the 07' Flyers dirty MF's. Get real. Tucker's hit was legal. No penalty on the play. Ask Sami himself. Well, that's if he remembers it at all. However, I thought Domi's attack on Neidermeyer to be dirty. Also, Domi hasn't played for the Leafs since 2005/06 season, so you might want to catch up with the times. But I find it hilarious that you are trying to defend the 2007 Flyers as not being "dirty". They've had 3 different players suspended for illegal hits, and they haven't even played 15 games of the season yet. While the intent of the Jones hit remains in question, there is no question that Chuck Kobasew went after Jones to pummel him with his fists afterward, what the f*ck do you think his intentions were? I don't know. You're supposedly a Flyers fan. Why don't you ask these guys some time.
posted by grum@work at 04:22 PM on October 31, 2007
Yes, it is all Jones' fault. He is the one that hit Bergeron. Trying to pass ANY of the blame to Bergeron is probably the dumbest response you could make. It's not the dumbest response. It's not dumb at all. I think what was as dumb as Jones' hit was Bergeron putting himself in that position. No one is excusing Jones for the hit -but merely suggesting that the injury wouldn't have happened if Bergeron better protected himself. Do I have to shout it from the rooftops? "If you're going to go low and play the puck with your back to the defense - KEEP YOUR HEAD UP". That's fucking 101. I'm sure you thought that McAmmond deserves some of the blame for the Downie hit, and that Kesler shouldn't have put his face in the way of Boulerice's stick. After all, if they had learned their lessons properly, McAmmond would have known to, uh, never go behind the net and Kesler would have known to, um, f*ck, I don't know what he could have done to avoid getting the crosscheck in the face. Not true. You're reading the video and suggesting that Jones' intent is obvious and cannot be open to interpretation. He's goal was to injure Bergeron. That's unfounded. You don't know that. Most pre-law kids know that you can't make those arguments. In fact - If you looked at Jones' history, role and career you'd see just how much of a non-goon he is. He had 38 minutes in penalties last year over 60 games. Not to mention the complete idiocy of comparing the three hits that were all completely different. McAmmond was in a bad spot - but that hit was a blatant head hunt by a kid trying to make the squad in a lousy way. Boulerice I'm not even going to dignify with a comparison (that guy should have been out of the league years ago). The NHL gave Jones 2 games. That would seem closer to my position than yours. No, it wouldn't exist if Jones didn't decide to break the rules and hit Bergeron from behind. You can spin it all you want, but Jones was the one breaking the rules And finally, I am shocked to hear you like this. The rules? We're talking about a sport where teams are penalized 10 times a game for breaking the "rules". If you're relying on the rules to protect players - then I don't know what to say. You sound like someone who never laced 'em up. I'm surprised man. Really.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 05:20 PM on October 31, 2007
He's goal was to injure Bergeron. That's unfounded. You don't know that. Most pre-law kids know that you can't make those arguments. I never said his goal was to injure Bergeron. I said his goal was to hit him illegally. That's something that just can't be disputed with the video. He hit him from behind. That's an illegal hit. Period. The NHL gave Jones 2 games. That would seem closer to my position than yours. I never stated that he should have been suspended for a large number of games (I would have been fine with 5). This whole argument started because I said it was a dirty hit. It was. And finally, I am shocked to hear you like this. The rules? We're talking about a sport where teams are penalized 10 times a game for breaking the "rules". If you're relying on the rules to protect players - then I don't know what to say. You sound like someone who never laced 'em up. I'm surprised man. Really If you are trying to compare "holding the stick" and "too many men on the ice" to "hitting from behind" and "boarding", I'm more surprised than you are. There is a reason why children's hockey leagues insist on having a "STOP" patch on the back of every kid's jerseys. It's a simple rule: don't hit other players from behind. Hitting someone from behind is dangerous. Jones had planned to hit Bergeron from behind (as you can see in the video). Therefore Jones had planned to be dangerous. Why is anyone even trying to debate this fact? Oh, and I played hockey for 10 years. Not that it matters, of course, since you don't have to actually play a sport to understand what is dangerous and what isn't. I've never played American football, but I know that spearing another player with your helmet is a dangerous (and illegal) play.
posted by grum@work at 08:21 PM on October 31, 2007
NO, it's not being debated because you called the Jones hit dirty, it's because you lumped the hit in with the other 2 and called the 07' Flyers dirty motherf*ckers. I'm not putting all the blame on the victim, I'm simply saying things may have turned out different if he played the puck as Mcsmokey suggested. If you did play hockey for 10 years you should at least understand what we mean. How ironic you call the Tucker hit clean, it was an obvious forearm to the head, no body check would have caused that kind of reaction. He went high on a smaller player and look at how you defend it you damn homer. Tucker is nothing but a goon and you defend him with everything you've got. Crazy, but expected from a Flyer hater. The Flyers are in 1st place and will be in the ECF, live with it.
posted by FlyerFan at 02:17 AM on November 01, 2007
Okay - I'm letting it go. Grum - I believe you've mentioned before that you played, which is why I was surprised at the heat of your response. I honestly thought the whole issue was an unfortunate marriage of a bad decision by Jones, a poor positioning by Bergeron and the weight of two previously really dirty plays hanging over the Flyers. Anyway - nice passion out there, boys. "You're a killer Dave!, A killer!"
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 07:51 AM on November 01, 2007
Dave's a mess.
posted by yerfatma at 09:11 AM on November 01, 2007
I'm sure you thought that McAmmond deserves some of the blame for the Downie hit, and that Kesler shouldn't have put his face in the way of Boulerice's stick. After all, if they had learned their lessons properly, McAmmond would have known to, uh, never go behind the net and Kesler would have known to, um, f*ck, I don't know what he could have done to avoid getting the crosscheck in the face. I think everyone has made it perfectly clear that those hits were shit. Yet you continue to group them all together. I suppose it's just surprising coming from someone like you. Kind of like: I don't know. You're supposedly a Flyers fan. Why don't you ask these guys some time. But in the exact same post you say: Domi hasn't played for the Leafs since 2005/06 season, so you might want to catch up with the times. So if someone should get with the times because a player is 1 season removed from a team, what does that say to someone who brings up a team from two generations ago? Your obviously entitled to your opinion, and I will always respect it. I'm just surprised by some of your comments in this thread.
posted by SummersEve at 09:18 AM on November 01, 2007
I was willing to give the Flyers a break when they canned Clarke and brought on Biron and Briere. I thought, "Gee, they could be an interesting team to watch this year." Well, all I know is that they are the dirtiest mutherf*ckers in the league and I wish them nothing but ill-will in the foreseeable future. Downie, Boulerice and now Jones. I think the NHL has to seriously consider fining teams, general managers and/or coaches that continually put players in the lineup that commit acts like these. If not fines, then have a rule that states if a player in your lineup is suspended by the league for an on-ice action, then you can NOT replace him on your roster during that time period AND you do not get any salary-cap relief while he is suspended without pay. Just for the record, this has nothing to do with retribution as no players on my favourite team have been injured by the Flyers...yet.