11/21/24
June 01, 2006
The World Cup in Germany: A competitive coming together of nations or racist bloodbath?: Former German government spokesman Uwe-Karsten Heye got the ball rolling. Last week, the one-time close aide of Gerhard Schröder said in a newspaper interview that he would tell World Cup visitors that there were certain "no-go" areas in the eastern German state of Brandenburg and elsewhere where he "would not advise anyone with a different skin color to go. They might not possibly leave alive."
posted by Texan_lost_in_NY to soccer at 12:28 AM - 34 comments
Great post, Texan_relocated_back_to_TX. There's an article in this week's Economist with the same quotes from Heye, which I'd link to, but the Economist has gone the decidedly capitalist route and made their articles on the net strictly for those that pay. Part of me wants to believe that despite the pre-emptive stink, these assholes won't merit the response they hope for. That said, I fear they will, via whatever means they (in my experience) drunkenly deem necessary, and if (*if*) they have the numbers to do it (which I doubt, but...) they've found themselves in a fantastic opportunistic strike of the hour hand to push their despicable agenda into the mainstream press. It's odd that given the intra-E(M)U effort to prevent National Hooliganism (mainly the the Brits and Poles) that the Germans don't seem to be making a concerted public effort to stem their own tide. However, there's an obvious conflict between the two articles you linked to. Cite this:
On June 21, Angola faces Iran in a World Cup group match in the Saxon city of Leipzig. Neo-Nazis apparently want to march there on that day. Their plan is to show support for Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and his anti-Semitic rhetoric, including a denial of the Holocaust.And this:
According to a statement given to the Italian media by a member of a Nationalist soccer fan group, White Nationalists from all over Europe will attack soccer fans from Islamic countries in the upcoming World Cup Soccer. Turks, who are quite numerous in Germany, are a prime target. According to the Italian who was interviewed, soccer fans from Germany, Austria, Spain, and England met in Braunau, Austria and carved out a strategy to make the Muslims feel the most unwelcome.Eh? Not your fault, TX, and I understand that factions exist, but on the wholescale, maybe the threat is a bit overplayed or, ideally, unorganized? I, for one, can only hope so.
posted by Ufez Jones at 01:04 AM on June 01, 2006
Holy crap, that's creepy. Thanks, New_Yorker_lost_in_Texas. Interesting read, in a scary, thank-God-I'm-not-a-dark-skinned-brother-checking-out-the-World-Cup sort of way.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 04:52 AM on June 01, 2006
So the Neo-Nazis are going to make life difficult for Muslims - except the ones that they're supporting from Iran because of President Crazypant's holocaust denial? That's the trouble with Nazis. Terribly inconsistent. The saving grace I always take these things with is the notion that despite the fact that Neo-Nazi groups are violent, motivated and committed to the cause - they just aren't very smart.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:25 AM on June 01, 2006
Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, but at least it's an ethos...
posted by hincandenza at 10:30 AM on June 01, 2006
Obviously, you're not a golfer.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 11:01 AM on June 01, 2006
Say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism, but at least it's an ethos... So is the KKK. Doesn't make it right! Stop the Hators!
posted by zippinglou at 11:36 AM on June 01, 2006
The fact that this is the way it still is in some parts of the world is sad but it is the truth. What would tarnish the image of Germany more, saying there are places some people should not go because of skin color or having and handfull of people end up dead in the wrong part of town. No matter how it looks, visitors need to be aware of their surroundings. Most travelers, especially americans are just stupid when they go to other countries. Being naive is one thing. Just being stupid is another.
posted by Debo270 at 11:49 AM on June 01, 2006
Anyone see Munich???? Sports seems like it should be politically off limits to me... Now, that is not to say that I think racists, or militant fundamentalists really contribute to other walks of life, but sports is sports because of the rules, and common appreciation of those rules. winners and losers are decided with strict appreciation of those rules. when other shit gets involved it ruins the game
posted by everett at 11:54 AM on June 01, 2006
On the other hand, there is nothing like a good soccer riot.
posted by Debo270 at 12:03 PM on June 01, 2006
Weedy Smarts mean nothing when an angry, racist mob chases you down weilding lead pipes. In fact the ignorance that fuels their rage probably makes them more dangerous. Its unfortunate that Germany's travel warning is race based, but nearly every locale hosting events has areas that visitors should avoid.
posted by gradys_kitchen at 12:07 PM on June 01, 2006
Thaaat's right Dude; they pee on your fucking Rug.
posted by lilnemo at 01:20 PM on June 01, 2006
I can get you a toe dude, with nail polish!
posted by HATER 187 at 01:25 PM on June 01, 2006
Smarts mean nothing when an angry, racist mob chases you down weilding lead pipes. In fact the ignorance that fuels their rage probably makes them more dangerous. Ah, but 'smart' might actually propel their agenda somewhere beyond an alley way. So we got that going for us. Which is nice. Anyway - I won't be surprised at any racial tension at the World Cup (which is saddening). I will be surprised at German citizens murdering foriegners. This article is domestic politics being bouyed by an international platform. Look beyond the subject matter to the people making statements. Don't get caught up in the hype, too much.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:35 PM on June 01, 2006
"Dude." Saved me a massive rant there ;-)
posted by walrus at 01:45 PM on June 01, 2006
As the article states (though the article is exceedingly poor) - there are 4,100 Neo-Nazis operating in Germany and about 10,400 people that the government vews as extrem right wingers who could be prone to physical violence. In other words .004% and .012% of the German people. I wouldn't be too scared.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:56 PM on June 01, 2006
Only takes one person to stick a knife in you, Weedy. That said, I'm dubious about the journalistic license employed in the article and notice that none of the quality media appear to be running with this.
posted by walrus at 02:01 PM on June 01, 2006
Yeah. Of course, it also only takes one guy yapping on his cell phone on the highway to take out an entire family - but I don't live in fear of it, and it doesn't stop me from getting into a car. One's murder, one's negligence and both are completely irrelevant to how I live my life. This is bluster. This is local politics (in both camps) leveraging the World Cup for local agendas. The facts simply bear it out.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:29 PM on June 01, 2006
The fact that this is the way it still is in some parts of the world is sad but it is the truth. Some parts?
posted by The_Black_Hand at 04:28 PM on June 01, 2006
...notice that none of the quality media appear to be running with this. I first read the quote from the Roma ultra in the second link...At the World Cup there will be a massacre...in the most recent Four Four Two. I would consider that magazine to be credible. It was from reading the blurb there that made me research the 'net a bit. That being said, it is remarkable that the vast majority of mainstream media haven't picked it up. We'll see if that changes in the coming days. Ufez, you're right about the disconnect between the two links regarding the Neo-nazis and their claim of support for Ahmadinejad and his denial of the Holocaust. I found that story while researching the other and thought it was worth a post. That being said, I have to question the true motive behind the Nazi-march in the city in which Iran play on the day of the match. Is this actually going to be a case of "Hold your friends close and your enemies closer"?
posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 04:38 PM on June 01, 2006
So, if you're a Muslim in Germany for the Cup, just make sure that everywhere you go, you wear a T-shirt reading "I'm Iranian." Problem solved. Game on!
posted by The_Black_Hand at 04:49 PM on June 01, 2006
Guys- this is just a massive psych job on the Muslim teams by the German team. Like when Adolf said his secret weapons would win the war.
posted by irunfromclones at 05:33 PM on June 01, 2006
I suspect the reason it hasn't made the "quality media" is because it's all soundbites made by self-aggrandizing politicians. The World Cup will be embroiled in racial violence my arse. It's always the same, nothing much ever happens except the football. And long may it continue.
posted by squealy at 06:51 PM on June 01, 2006
Amen squealy! Lets hope anyways.
posted by jojomfd1 at 12:05 AM on June 02, 2006
No, World Cup soccer NEVER engenders any feelings of nationalism at all. Hell, even the QUALIFIERS can lead to rioting that leads to a 5-day war that leaves 3,000 dead (El Salvador, 1969). Of course, it could also help to end a civil war this time around (Ivory Coast). I know the FA has initiatives to help dispel the stereotype of the English soccer hooligan. But, if it is an undeserved stereotype, then why to they need to prevent registered hooligans from leaving the country during and leading up to matches? (ans who the hell is registering these hooligans anyway?) Anyway, I hope that Germany 2006 goes off without a hitch, racially motivated or otherwise.
posted by elovrich at 12:59 AM on June 02, 2006
Hang on just one second. No one is trying to claim England doesn't have a minor hooligan problem. English citizens convicted of violent offences at England games and in some cases domestic league games are subject to banning orders and have to submit their passport to the police weeks before the tournament begins. They also have to report to the police on the day of each England game during the World Cup. Failure to meet these conditions will result in a £5000 fine. I would have thought this was all eminently sensible and to be applauded rather than used as a club with which to beat us. Try looking at countries who do have significant problems with football-related disorder and haven't AFAIK taken such draconian steps to stop their fans being involved in disorder at the World Cup - for instance Holland, Italy and the hosts.
posted by squealy at 05:27 AM on June 02, 2006
This is the article from La Repubblica (in Italian, natch) that I can find that remotely resembles the 'article' mentioned in the second link. I can't find the Yahoo article linked there, though. The Repubblica article is about the pan-European meeting of about 70 neo-nazi ultras. Of the 10 which are Italians, two are Laziale, two are Romanisti, and the rest are from Verona, Trieste,and Ascoli. The only direct quote from an Italian is from a Veronese spouting the usual bullshit about "this will kill the shitty blacks & jews" after a round of nazi chanting. Turks are mentioned as a prime target, but not as a direct quote from an Italian neo-fasctista. Funnily enough, the second link forget to include the French neo-nazis also mentioned in the Repubblica article. The tens of thousands is pulled from the section of the article speaking about diecimila tifosi inglesi (almeno la metà, secondo le stime di Scotland Yard, sono hooligans) [...10,000 English fans (at least half of which , according tothe estimates Scotland Yard, are hooligans.] Overall, the original Repubblica article is one of those 'undercover journalist dramatic exposeès' that gets mistranslated or perverted with selective (mis)translation. if I remember correctly, Italian hooligans who have been caught also give up the passport and also their right to travel outside Italy for a period of time. How that's enforced I have no idea.
posted by romakimmy at 07:40 AM on June 02, 2006
posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 08:15 AM on June 02, 2006
Not all from mainstream media, but it looks like the hooligans story is getting some attention.
posted by Texan_lost_in_NY at 08:24 AM on June 02, 2006
I don't speak much Italian but the Foreign Office estimates that over 100,000 England fans will be travelling to Germany. The Times says 100,000 England fans travelling, 4,000 unable to leave Britain due to banning orders, 716 free to travel as banning orders have lapsed and the police haven't applied to have them renewed as they consider they are no longer a risk. I know whose figures I believe (hint - it's not Italian). Now you just have to make your own minds up.
posted by squealy at 03:31 PM on June 02, 2006
squealy, my poorly written point was about how Texan's second link was selectively mistranslated in a puffed-up, chest pounding way by a group of bloody bigoted asswipes, not to highlight some stupid estimate about how many English fans are possible hooligans. In any case, estimating half of X number of fans as hooligans smacks of a bit of 'scare tactics' propaganda to me. That said, La Repubblica is one of the more respected papers here, if a bit on the leftish-side of things. In the English speaking press, I've seen quite a few of their articles misquoted or mistranslated in (what is my guess) the interest of 'punching up' an article and usually ends up being a game of journalistic Telephone.
posted by romakimmy at 06:41 AM on June 03, 2006
Yeah, I see that now romakimmy, my misunderstanding. Mi dispiace, sono Inglese; we spend most our time drunk. Bollocks to all the naysayers let's have a few beers and good old fashioned sing-song and enjoy the football.
posted by squealy at 07:19 AM on June 03, 2006
No sweat squealy - I'm American and thus know squat about footie ;) Here's to Germany & the Dutch making a swift exit (the former for playing like, well, Germans and the latter if only for the fact thet their jerseys give me a fucking migrane...)
posted by romakimmy at 05:13 AM on June 05, 2006
And this. There are times I wonder how naive I must be for believing in all the positive things soccer has given me.