February 05, 2012

The game finally got exciting at the end there. Does this game make Eli Manning an elite quarterback?

posted by insomnyuk at 10:13 PM on February 05, 2012

While I was cheering for the Pats to win, I was also (weirdly) hoping that they wouldn't score on the Hail-Mary touchdown pass.

I didn't want to hear all of the ridiculous Monday-morning-quarterback crap about how the Giants running back shouldn't have scored that last touchdown. You take every damn point you can get, and make the opposition beat you. If he doesn't score, and they flub/block the "game-winning" field goal instead, how much worse is it than Brady goes 80 yards in a minute against a defense that supposed to stop that sort of thing?

Seriously, I was looking for something to throw at the screen when the announcers started up on that crap.

posted by grum@work at 10:29 PM on February 05, 2012

I don't hang around here much so I apologize if I seem to be trolling but: Elway: 2 for 5 Brady: 3 for 5 Bradshaw: 4 for 4 Montana: 4 for 4

Eli is elite because he didn't panic and fuck up. I think Eli survived because of his defense but so did Montana with Haley and Lott. So often that's the case in close games.

I think we can reasonably reduce the "Best Quarterback Ever" debate though to being between Bradshaw and Montana if rings are the metric.

Unless Eli gets 2 more but, as a Saints fan, I see Brees coming between Eli and his goal.

I'm just sad because no football for a while now.

posted by vapidave at 10:35 PM on February 05, 2012

Also, I was disappointed that Ochocinco wasn't involved in the final play. I was hoping for a wonderful redemption story ending for him. At least he got a catch in the Super Bowl.

posted by grum@work at 10:36 PM on February 05, 2012

Both quarterbacks played really well but if Welker makes a great catch instead of Manningham we'd be having a completely different discussion right now.

posted by tron7 at 10:50 PM on February 05, 2012

I didn't want to hear all of the ridiculous Monday-morning-quarterback crap about how the Giants running back shouldn't have scored that last touchdown.

It's not ridiculous at all. Both Belichick and Coughlin approached that play with the belief Bradshaw shouldn't have scored it. He was trying to take a knee and his momentum carried him in. Patriot defenders were even looking to knock a runner into the end zone.

I don't like the percentages of giving Tom Brady a minute to score a game-winning touchdown. It worked out for the Giants tonight, but if Coughlin tries to eat the clock and kick an easy field goal I think it's the better percentage play.

posted by rcade at 10:57 PM on February 05, 2012

... I might allow as to how he might be in the same class as his brother, much less Tom Brady.

How many Super Bowls does Brady need to lose before you acknowledge there are other great quarterbacks in the NFL?

There's no doubt Eli's an elite quarterback after this season. 4,900 passing yards, an incredible number of fourth-quarter comebacks and now a second ring in four years.

posted by rcade at 11:00 PM on February 05, 2012

Eli has outperformed Brady in every match up between the 2.

I'm willing to admit that Manning beat Brady. But "outperformed"? Sorry, I just don't agree. There were four or five straight drops by Patriots receivers, wrapped around two or three catches by Giants receivers that should not in any way have been catches. The Giants outperformed the Patriots, absolutely. And Manning deserves a lot of the credit for leading his team to two championships in four years, because that's what quarterbacks do.

How many Super Bowls does Brady need to lose before you acknowledge there are other great quarterbacks in the NFL?

You did notice that in that sentence you quoted I stipulated Peyton Manning as elite, right? And "elite" isn't just "great." Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees are "great." Eli Manning is "great." But if we're stipulating "elite" to be "in the top quarter of starting quarterbacks in the NFL at the moment," then we're devaluing the hell out of the word. "Elite" isn't constantly having to come back in the fourth quarter. If comebacks is the metric, then Tim Tebow is the most elite quarterback of this century so far. And I don't think any of us wants that.

posted by Etrigan at 11:18 PM on February 05, 2012

I'm willing to admit that Manning beat Brady. But "outperformed"?

I don't see how you can make the argument that Brady outperformed Manning, given Brady's interception and his failure to execute a game-winning drive in the final :57. The Manningham catch you don't seem to want to credit Manning for, because it was such an incredible catch, was not a crap pass. He put it in a great spot 35 yards in the air.

If comebacks is the metric, then Tim Tebow is the most elite quarterback of this century so far. And I don't think any of us wants that.

Last-minute comebacks have always been a metric in sizing up a quarterback's greatness. Eli now has two of them in the Super Bowl, both over a quarterback who is unquestionably among the elite at his position. If that doesn't put him among the elite, given his stats and the incredible number of fourth-quarter comebacks this season, I fail to see what more he needed to do.

posted by rcade at 11:25 PM on February 05, 2012

The wife has instructed me to go fetch sandwiches and I'm hungry so I'm going to have to bail but as to the matter of coaches I'll note: When the league had 28 teams 13 of the 28 active head coaches had been assistant coaches to Bill Walsh. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Walsh_%28American_football_coach%29#Bill_Walsh_coaching_tree

posted by vapidave at 11:34 PM on February 05, 2012

Odd game. In the first half I felt like the Giants should be up by 15 and in the second half I felt like the Pats should be up by 10. Neither team played particularly well.

If Eli were an "elite" quarterback then there would be no debate about it. Elite players just are "elite", you don't need to have a conversation about it to prove it. Is Albert Pujols elite? Is Lebron James elite?

Anyway, on to basketball and hockey and baseball's coming around the bend. :)

posted by DudeDykstra at 12:10 AM on February 06, 2012

If Eli were an "elite" quarterback then there would be no debate about it.

Since when is greatness settled without debate? The Hall of Fame is a huge argument every year. It's not like we all just realized simultaneously that Tom Brady was an elite quarterback. Considering the tuck rule game and his numbers in 2001, it was an open question how good he was.

posted by rcade at 12:21 AM on February 06, 2012

Oh, and I was utterly confused as to the results of the penalty call at the end there. The Giants have 12 players on the field, and the play runs off 10 seconds (from 19 to 9 seconds). If the Patriots accept the penalty (which they did), why doesn't the clock reset to 19 seconds?

Shouldn't too-man-men penalties be handled the same way as defensive offsides where they have free path to the QB (blow the whistle, stop the the play and clock, assess the penalty)?

Isn't it in the Giants favour at that point to draw that penalty? The 10 seconds lost on the play (because Brady couldn't find an open receiver with the extra defender) is FAR more valuable than the 5 yard penalty.

Wouldn't it make sense for the Giants to put 24 players on the field for a couple plays in a row from the start of that drive, give up 20 yards in penalties, but chew up valuable time instead? Brady wasn't going to throw a Hail-Mary from his own 40 with 24 defenders on the field. :)

posted by grum@work at 12:52 AM on February 06, 2012

Shouldn't too-man-men penalties be handled the same way as defensive offsides where they have free path to the QB

Yeah, or false start penalties (although the ball doesn't have to be snapped for those). We were wondering about that too - why wasn't the play blown dead immediately after the snap?

posted by LionIndex at 01:14 AM on February 06, 2012

And your cousins would be looking for explanations.

posted by dyams at 06:56 AM on February 06, 2012

The Giants and Eli scored one contested passing touchdown and one gimme rushing touchdown against the 31st ranked passing defense. The Patriots were giving them the short pass, and trying to stop the big pass, which they pretty much did. Eli has some great drives - that is sure. The fact that these drives come at the end of the game surely makes them special, but putting him in the category of Brady and Peyton just seems to be overstating things.

posted by bperk at 07:26 AM on February 06, 2012

I don't see how you can make the argument that Brady outperformed Manning...

Then we're even, because I don't see where I made that argument. I think both QBs in this game were about even -- one just had a better receiving corps on the day.

posted by Etrigan at 08:14 AM on February 06, 2012

To those who think Eli Manning is not now an elite quarterback, what exactly does he need to do to become one?

posted by rcade at 08:26 AM on February 06, 2012

The Manning pass to Manningham was perfectly placed, and in order for him to be open Manning had to look off the safety until the last second. How can you give Brady no blame for the Welker pass and Manning so little credit for the Manningham pass? I give up.

posted by rcade at 08:35 AM on February 06, 2012

To those who think Eli Manning is not now an elite quarterback, what exactly does he need to do to become one?

Consistently play outstanding. This ends as a great year for the Giants, but the regular season was not impressive. The Giants got swept by the Redskins this year and barely made the playoffs. To be elite as an NFL player, you should be arguably the best player at your position in the league at some point. Do you think you could make a good case that Eli was the best QB in the league this year? Any year of his career?

posted by bperk at 08:44 AM on February 06, 2012

One thing that people don't seem to take into account often enough about Eli's progress: he has had to come of age as a pro QB while bathed in the unforgiving and inescapable glare of the nation's media epicenter.

One, as you say, he sought that out. He gets no credit for forcing a trade.

Two, you think Peyton Manning doesn't get coverage because he's in Indy? He got more headlines than his brother this year for not playing. Thirty years ago, maybe NY is a harder place to QB than Green Bay. Nowadays, the media landscape is too huge and granular for someone to hide in a small market.

posted by Etrigan at 08:50 AM on February 06, 2012

rcade, I'll consider Eli an elite quarterback when he marries a supermodel.

posted by apoch at 09:14 AM on February 06, 2012

How the Brady/Manning debate can revolve around the Welker/Manningham catches is very confusing to me.

Welker had beaten the coverage, was wide open and Brady over-threw him. Bad on Brady. Manningham was in tight double coverage, and Manning put the ball exactly where it had to be. Good on Manning.

Nowadays, the media landscape is too huge and granular for someone to hide in a small market

While you may be correct to a certain level, clearly the NY media landscape is far more stressful than markets like Indy, Minnesota, etc.. Your example of GB is unfair as their past makes for a tougher environment for QB's. Rodgers had far higher expectations to hit than Peyton did when he started in Indy. Having a family pedigree to live up to just heightened the bar Eli had to pass in order to be accepted. He has shouldered that weight well.

All year long, Welker catches balls thrown like that for him.

That sounds like a reason that Brady should not be considered elite...his receivers make great plays that make him look better.

posted by dviking at 09:29 AM on February 06, 2012

Would I have said he was an elite quarterback before last night? No. Do I think he is now? Absolutely.

I guess I'm missing what you think he did last night that propelled him into elite status. One passing touchdown, continuing a couple of drives, a great pass (and then great catch) to Manningham? He played well, but it wasn't close to some of the great games by a QB. He won, and he got the MVP, mainly because no one else distinguished themselves. I think the Giants defense stopping the Patriots was more impressive than the Giants offense, but the MVP is for one player. I'm not trying to diminish his performance, but I wasn't blown away by it.

posted by bperk at 09:33 AM on February 06, 2012

Eli Manning has three 4,000-yard seasons in a row and is a two-time Super Bowl MVP.

To be fair, Eli won the MVP this time around because nobody else on the field stood up and did anything special. Manningham's catch really was the MVP play, but he didn't do much else to warrant it. Eli was good, not great. Bradshaw scored the winning TD, but could've been the goat for doing so. No defensive player lived up to their own hype. Somebody had to win it and the winning QB has an edge on that award always.

That was such a poorly played game, it was actually surprising it was a Super Bowl. Bad penalties killed both team at crucial times and the Giants were lucky some of their sloppiness with the ball didn't result in turnovers. In the end, this was a game that was decided by about three plays (NE 12 men on the field when they forced a fumble deep in their own zone, Welker's drop and Manningham's catch) all of which went the Giants' way. They made more plays.

I was one of the most vocal anti-Eli being an elite quarterback at the beginning of the season. I don't think I was wrong then; Eli last year, and Eli at 7-7, was a whole different quarterback than the guy who threw the team on his back and carried them through the playoffs.

There's something special about Eli sometimes, and maybe he's turned a corner this year, but the Giants' previous 30 games before "the run" this year had Eli throwing 40 picks and going 17-13. That's why it's not as cut and dried with Eli as it is with, say, Brady or Rodgers, because his numbers are murkier and occasionally, he's uninspiring.

That said, do I think he belongs in the top 10 now? You bet. You don't win two superbowls and play the way he did and not get some credit for it. Dude played up to his pre-season prediction and hats off to him for it.

posted by dfleming at 09:56 AM on February 06, 2012

As to the 12 men on the field penalty, don't the officials have the ability to call an illegal substitution penalty when more players come onto the field than leave?

Any number of players can enter the field while the ball is dead. The offense can't have more than 11 in the huddle, but otherwise the number of players for the offense or defense only matters while the ball is in play.

posted by rcade at 10:09 AM on February 06, 2012

"My husband cannot (expletive) throw the ball and catch the ball at the same time" -- Gisele Bunchen to a heckler after the game

posted by rcade at 10:20 AM on February 06, 2012

"My husband cannot (expletive) throw the ball and catch the ball at the same time" -- Gisele Bunchen to a heckler after the game

The blame his teammates defense seems like a bad idea.

posted by bperk at 10:30 AM on February 06, 2012

To me an elite quarterback is a player who elevates their play and carries their team in big games. Eli is all of that.

Just think of the media bombardment we'd be getting today if Brady controls the game the way Eli did, made the plays Eli did, and won the game the way Eli did.

Brady elite? Entitled sounds more accurate here.

posted by cixelsyd at 10:42 AM on February 06, 2012

That sounds like a reason that Brady should not be considered elite...his receivers make great plays that make him look better.

Deion Branch, Randy Moss, Wes Welker, David Givens, Reche Caldwell, David Patten, etc. never put up numbers anywhere else like they did when Brady was throwing them the ball. Maybe there is something in the drinking water in Boston that makes receivers into career makers, but I'm guessing that a more plausible explanation is the guy who threw them the ball was pretty good.

posted by dfleming at 10:47 AM on February 06, 2012

Well, Moss I guess did...sorry...but he was on the scrap heap when he arrived.

posted by dfleming at 10:49 AM on February 06, 2012

If I was a Patriots fan, I'd be cultivating a white-hot hatred of the Giants.

See, I don't. I like the Giants; they're a tough-nosed, hard-working team with some great play makers. 2007 hurt a ton, but watching the Giants on their way to the Super Bowl, that was a team that was absolutely playing the kind of football I like.

I hate the Jets. I respected the Colts. I think there are huge morale implications to losing twice to the Giants, but they came in a more complete team and left with a championship.

I'd stuff Brandon Jacobs into a wood chipper if I could for his mouth, but it's hard not to like Eli, who spent his entire life in the shadow of a legendary father and brother and for him to make a name for himself is really the kind of thing you like to see. Plus, that Cruz touchdown salsa dance is special.

posted by dfleming at 10:53 AM on February 06, 2012

Oh, and watching Jake Ballard testing out his injured knee was heartbreaking.

posted by tron7 at 10:58 AM on February 06, 2012

Eli is an elite QB and I don't see how anybody can argue against it. Certainly the makeup of a team dictates a lot about how a QB stats are going to look, but in the end winning Superbowls is what the job is about. QBs like Peyton Manning, Rodgers, Brees and Brady put up unreal passing numbers mainly because they have to with their defenses and the makeup of their team. Eli has played on a better balanced team with strong running and defense similar to Rothlisberger. They are not going to rely on the same methods to win and therefore it may seem somewhat less spectacular but is still worthy of credit. The Giants were known for solid running attack and great defense but for most of the year the defense was injured, and the running game was non existant. It was Eli Manning and the excellent work of Niks, Cruz and Manningham that kept the Giants in contention, until the defense finally showed up. The Pats only good area of defense is their big guys in the middle and Bellichick made a point to limit the Giants running game, pressure Eli and not allow them to succeed in the short passing and screen game. Eli had to challenge the secondary down the field and he did it.

The Giants were spectacular down the stretch and broke a record for beating the toughest playoff schedule base on opponents combined wins.

Brady had a good game but the Giants did a good job of keeping him off the field. Brady did make a couple of critical mistakes that may have cost the game. The safety was huge and considering that Brady had all day to throw the ball, it wasn't a critical play (first play of the game), the only thing worse than an int at that part of the field was taking a safety. Especially intentional grounding in the end zone, considering he could have taken a few steps to his right and then thrown the ball out of bounds. Very out of character for him to do something like that. Almost as out of character as Welker missing that catch.

That was a game in which a couple of plays that could have gone either way made the difference in winning and loosing. It seems Gronkowski's injury was a big factor also. If he is healthy that is a much tougher game for the Giants defense.

posted by Atheist at 11:12 AM on February 06, 2012

I guess that's the biggest hurdle I have with drawing many conclusions from this Giant's run. It was so close to never being allowed to start.

A funny season all around: the Patriots were a pretty weak 13-3 team while the Giants have to be about the best 9-7 team ever. I'm guessing some of that was the lockout. In the Patriots' case, some of it was the schedule as well: I think they went 5-1 against the AFC East and 4-0 against the AFC West.

posted by yerfatma at 11:13 AM on February 06, 2012

yertfatma - I agree, the Patriots only beat one team all year that finished the season with a winning record, and that was in the AFC title game against the Ravens. I believe the only played four games against winning teams. Including through the Superbowl. They lost 3 out of the 4. No doubt the schedule for them was pretty soft.

It is very difficult to win it all with one of the worst ranked defenses in the league unless you get some luck (missed easy field goal in the AFC title game) and a relatively easy schedule, (including a playoff game against a team without a winning record and a rookie QB like the Broncos).

posted by Atheist at 11:21 AM on February 06, 2012

"I'll admit that Manning's pass was a good one, but it wasn't anything special. Manningham's footwork is what makes that happen."

Absolutely, Manning put that ball exactly where it needed to be but that isn't all that special. It was the catch, getting the feet in bounds and maintaining possession through out the fall that was really special. Manning hit the receiver in the hands and Manningham made a big play. On the other hand Brady hit Welker right in the hands, on a similarly big play to keep a drive alive (almost the same situation) and Welker failed to make the play. You could almost boil the difference in the game to those two plays. Like they say, sometimes you just need a guy to make a play.

posted by Atheist at 11:26 AM on February 06, 2012

An interception with a pass from the end zone is almost assuredly worth 3 points, and possibly 7, for the Giants. The safety is only 2.

Yes, there is a free kick after the safety, but then your defense has to do their normal job on the field.

An int is almost assuredly worth 3 and possibly 7. A safety is 2 plus a short field for the opposing offense which is almost assuredly worth 3 and possibly 7. I just wouldn't discount the possession it takes from Brady which is worth a lot, and the momentum it gave the defense, especially on the first play of the game. I believe there was very little time left on the clock in the first period when Brady took only his second snap of the game. That was huge in keeping the Pats from putting points up.

Basically the Giant punter was instrumental in that victory with a couple of great punts that pinned NE deep and forced a safety.

posted by Atheist at 11:32 AM on February 06, 2012

What I found really striking this season about the Pats was how awful their draft class was; Solder looks to be a fixture on the O line, but there were no other players who made a meaningful contribution to the team as a rookie.

With 5 picks in the first three rounds, you would've thought a couple of those glaring holes would've been filled or at least stop-gapped with depth. Dowling was hurt, sure, but the combined outputs of Ridley, Vereen and Mallett was greater than 0, but only slightly. They were running out the bottom barrel DBs of the NFL and converted receivers trying to stop the pass. A lot of those issues existed hen they were drafting too.

A lot of things went right for the Pats; they picked up two DEs who surprised everyone with their re-emergence, they had an extremely soft schedule, they got to play an awful Broncos team and only made the Super Bowl due to a fluke kick miss in a game they were outplayed in. If they don't re-tool and draft a couple of impact players, this could easily be a 9-7 team next year, a year where Brady's another year closer to decline.

Maybe Ridley and Mallett are the next generation, but for a win-now team, it's not often you have so many young guys sitting around doing nothing.

posted by dfleming at 11:36 AM on February 06, 2012

Back shoulder throw, adjustment made by receiver and standard operating procedure in the NFL.

You're trying to have it both ways. Brady puts ball in wrong place with an open receiver and it's Welker's fault the catch isn't made. Manning puts ball in perfect place 35 yards in the air in double coverage but it "isn't all that special."

posted by rcade at 11:49 AM on February 06, 2012

Basically the Giant punter was instrumental in that victory with a couple of great punts that pinned NE deep and forced a safety.

Totally. He was a huge part of their Week 9 win as well.

What I found really striking this season about the Pats was how awful their draft class was

I don't see that. Solder needs some work, but he's played well from Week 2 on as a rookie with a limited training camp. The Dowling pick is a total boom/ bust pick: either he is too brittle to play football or he steps in and helps strengthen the secondary next year. He was a bust this year. I think both of the backs will be contributors. Ridley already had a good second half of the season, which has been forgotten due to his two late-season fumbles. Cannon looks to be a fixture at guard and was a life-saver late in the season. Lee Smith might have been a contributor but they couldn't get him through to the practice squad and wound up using guys like Dan Gronkowski and Usaka Polite in his place (though Smith hasn't seen much of the field with the Bills).

for a win-now team, it's not often you have so many young guys sitting around doing nothing.

I don't get that at all: if you're a win-now team, how can you be depending on the draft? Are there players that will be great for two years and then disappear that you can draft? Win-now teams depend on free agency more than the draft, which is why they get stuck as win-now teams instead of having long-term success.

Question: how much do you think the lockout was a factor in both of those things (slow-starting rookies and do-nothing free agents)? I'm curious to hear opinions on that.

I think that's a huge question going into next year. Were players at skill positions or other complicated spots at a disadvantage compared to their fellow rookies this year? It will be interesting to see how the 2011 class plays next year and to see how the 2010 class does as well, since some coaches say year 2 is where players really make The Leap.

posted by yerfatma at 11:57 AM on February 06, 2012

Basically the Giant punter was instrumental in that victory with a couple of great punts that pinned NE deep and forced a safety.

Special teams was very important for the G-men. Pinning a team inside the 5 really limits options. Special teams makes a huge impact in games even when someone doesnt return a kick, or block a punt. Just going out and doing what they plan. Stick punts like wedge shots. You wont hear about that on ESPN though.

Watching Ballard go down on the sidelines was awful. What a warrior. Hope his knee isnt torn up to badly.

posted by Debo270 at 12:07 PM on February 06, 2012

My wife is a nurse, and we she saw that replay of him testing it out, screaming, and then falling to the ground, she was furious at the medical/training staff that even let him try that. She turned to me and said "This is why there are so many crippled, old football players, right?"

That, and the way they used to pump them up with painkillers and send them out anytime they could still stand upright.

posted by rcade at 12:09 PM on February 06, 2012

There is a difference between "wrong place" (the reciever's feet) and "sub-optimal but catchable" (opposite shoulder, or a little high).

True, but Welker was so open I knock Brady for that pass.

Manning also set a record by opening with nine straight completions as the Giants hogged the ball during the first 12 minutes of the game.

posted by rcade at 12:13 PM on February 06, 2012

Speaking of giving games away, if Romo hits a wide open Miles Austin in week 14 the Giants aren't in the playoffs. Nobody would be talking about Eli as elite, Coughlin probably gets fired, and jm_mosier's aunt has balls again.

Exactly. The giants were one play away from not making the playoffs. The patriots were one play away (that could have happened several times) from winning the game.

And now we're pointing to one play where Brady threw an off target but catchable ball to Welker that he normally catches but doesn't as some dividing factor between Eli and Brady. Silly.

posted by justgary at 12:27 PM on February 06, 2012

Win-now teams depend on free agency more than the draft, which is why they get stuck as win-now teams instead of having long-term success.

I agree entirely, but if you look at the Pats' previous draft, they picked up McCourty, Gronkowski, Hernandez, Spikes and Mesko, all of whom made an impact from day one and who got a lot better in year two. Deaderick might also stick.

I'm not suggesting that a bunch of rookies are how you win immediately, but the 2010 class all filled necessary holes or created advantages (even imperfectly, like Spikes and McCourty have) and the guys they got in 2011, other than Solder, had a fraction of the impact.

Year two, I might eat those words, and I do agree that the lack of a solid training camp was a problem, but it just seemed to me that the draft strategy and the personnel they picked up did not match how good their picks were.

posted by dfleming at 12:42 PM on February 06, 2012

Ridley already had a good second half of the season, which has been forgotten due to his two late-season fumbles.

I was amazed to see the statistic last night that Ben Jarvus Green-Ellis has never fumbled in nearly 600 combined regular season and playoff carries. Really, really impressive.

On the Welker pass, there was a safety coming over from the inside, and Welker may have gotten blown up (although the safety would not have gotten over there in time to make a play on the ball) if the pass was to the inside. Not sure if the pass behind him was by design or a mis-throw (perhaps a combination of both). Either way, I would put blame on both players -- on Brady for not throwing a slightly more catchable ball and on Welker for not making a catch he probably makes much more often than not.

posted by holden at 01:04 PM on February 06, 2012

... pointing to some arbitrary play as the difference between Eli and Brady is so incredibly short-sighted I think you're channeling Skip Bayless.

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here. You were talking about one play keeping the Giants from missing the playoffs. I responded to that. Now you're talking about Manning and Brady instead and how people shouldn't point to one play as a difference maker, which is exactly what you were doing when you joined the discussion.

posted by rcade at 01:25 PM on February 06, 2012

I have no idea what point you're trying to make here.

You: If Brady made a pass to Welker at the 20 as good as Manning's pass to Manningham, the Pats are Super Bowl champs. Welker was wide open. Brady put the ball where Welker had to struggle to make the play, and he couldn't do it.

Let me rephrase that: If Welker makes a play he normally makes the Pats are super bowl champions and we're still discussing if Eli is an elite quarterback or not.

Let's go back further. If Eli's receiver doesn't catch a ball against his helmet in his previous Super Bowl he's now 0-2 in Super Bowls.

I don't really have a dog in this fight (go saints) but you seem to be gung-ho on Eli being an elite quarterback, and questioning Brady's legacy, so when you point to that play you're framing it as Brady failing. That helps with your conclusion. Look, Eli made the play when Brady didn't. But it's one play that could have gone either way. The ball hit him in his hands. That's what a receiver needs. Should have been caught.

posted by justgary at 01:44 PM on February 06, 2012

I don't really have a dog in this fight (go saints) but you seem to be gung-ho on Eli being an elite quarterback, and questioning Brady's legacy, so when you point to that play you're framing it as Brady failing.

My Brady vs. Manning comments related to who played better last night. I haven't questioned Brady's career legacy, beyond saying that he's no longer in a class by himself among the elites.

So when I said Brady failed on that pass, it had nothing to do with framing an argument. It's what I thought happened on the play.

As for being gung-ho about Eli Manning, give me a break. As a Dallas Cowboys fan, the last thing I wanted to get out of these playoffs was an NFC East rival with a second Lombardi, a rejuvenated head coach and an elite quarterback.

posted by rcade at 02:21 PM on February 06, 2012

Wilfork is definitely a top defensive player and Mayo is arguably one as well. The Pats aren't the only team doing a lot with undrafted players and one could argue the reverse, that they only have to make do with undrafted players because they haven't drafted well. I don't think that's true, but I think the answer to the puzzle lies in the middle. There are cases where they've taken someone like Stephen Neal who wasn't even a college football player and turned him into a good offensive lineman, but I wouldn't mind a couple of DBs that were actually drafted in an early round and justified it.

posted by yerfatma at 02:43 PM on February 06, 2012

he's no longer in a class by himself among the elites

He's 1 of 2 QB's to play in 5 superbowls, and is 3-2 vs Elway's 2 and 3. He could someday be in a class by himself if he plays in his 6th superbowl.

Montana is the only QB in history I would consider "in a class by himself among the elites" - he never lost a superbowl and won 4 and was named MVP in 3. Bradshaw also was 4-0 in the one that means the most with 2 MVP awards.

posted by cixelsyd at 03:26 PM on February 06, 2012

Then the Broncos got their defense together and a great running back, they win a Superbowl and Elway only threw for 130 yards or something like that. Sometimes a great QB manages the game properly and it doesn't mean spectacular numbers. Denver built a team around Elway but in the end, it was a balanced team that was most successful.

The Broncos cheated the salary cap to build that balanced team and were later penalized for it. In the current NFL, teams can't have it all. They have to make hard decisions. A QB that can move the chains without a great RB is a huge asset. That kind of QB can also hide a lack of depth in the defense by eating up such huge amounts of the clock. And, QBs that can get the ball out fast can hide offensive line deficiencies. I don't think Eli is in that class right now.

I just heard from a friend that they had 17 undrafted players starting this Superbowl. If that is true, it is unheard of and speaks volumes to what they did accomplish and just how good Bellichick is as a coach.

It doesn't seem like it says anything good about Belichick's role as GM though.

posted by bperk at 04:29 PM on February 06, 2012

I'm not sure that's a "failure" on Brady's part.

Do you think every ball Welker gets his hands on is automatically a good pass?

posted by rcade at 05:08 PM on February 06, 2012

I like Cris Collinsworth in general, but I had a hard time with him last night. He seemed insistent on describing ever play as one for the ages.

He carried on about that Manningham play for an excessively long time. It was a nice catch, but wide receivers in the NFL make those kinds of catches. I don't think it was particularly memorable. People will be back talking about the Tyree catch in no time.

posted by bperk at 06:16 PM on February 06, 2012

I just heard from a friend that they had 17 undrafted players starting this Superbowl.

I think that has more to do with their passion for drafting crappy DBs and needing to cover the gaps than great talent recognition. If it wasn't for Mayo the '07, '08 and '09 drafts would be grim indeed. I don't know if I'd really use players like Welker or Woodhead - signed as UDFAs by other teams then signed as regular FAs by the Pats - for that either.

posted by deflated at 08:29 PM on February 06, 2012

Every ball Welker gets his hands on should be a catch (is a catchable ball), so the throw was good enough.

Gee whiz, that's tough. Ozzie Smith got his glove on a lot balls he didn't end up making the play on. Not too many other people would have even gotten a glove on them. Wes almost made a spectacular catch, I can't fault him for not being able to haul that one in, his ability and effort made it "catch-able."

It was a nice catch, but wide receivers in the NFL make those kinds of catches. I don't think it was particularly memorable.

Yes they do, I'd say every week. I'd also say that was by far the best throw of the night from either quarterback. This was however a heck of a play, given the timing, by both players.

Disclaimer: I was rooting for Eli, because he had the balls to go to Ole Miss and his brother didn't. He isn't afraid of being put under a microscope and he really can up his game. Good for him. I am also glad that Brady and the Hoodie have another loss in the big one. They've won enough, I didn't want them to get cocky or anything:)

posted by tselson at 11:43 PM on February 06, 2012

Ozzie Smith got his glove on a lot balls he didn't end up making the play on.

Yes, and when he didn't make a play on them, they were sometimes called "an error".

posted by grum@work at 12:11 AM on February 07, 2012

Considering that there has now been a safety scored first in 1 of 46 Super Bowls, seems like the oddsmakers are pretty good at their jobs. Though I guess if you're betting a particular team, you should double the odds.

I hope Justin Tuck finds that guy and offers to sign the ticket.

posted by Etrigan at 07:59 AM on February 07, 2012

Reading the web and watching TV about that pass is strange. Maybe it could have been a better throw, but I've never seen a pass hit a receiver in both hands been criticized so much.

On the other side, some people are calling him Wes Buckner for failing to make the catch, which is incredibly harsh. I think the blame ought to be shared on that play. It was an off-target pass, but Welker got two hands on it and he makes that catch more often than not.

posted by rcade at 09:15 AM on February 07, 2012

Here is a breakdown from WSJ of the ending of the game, including an expansion of yesterday's discussion of intentional too-many-men penalties or the Polish Goal Line.

posted by bender at 02:01 PM on February 07, 2012