September 17, 2008

Well Josh spoke his mind is that a crime? No, but joke or not in the court of public opinion omg he is toast, just another athlete showing why he is an athlete and not a brain surgeon. Just shut up and play.

posted by jknemo at 06:14 PM on September 17, 2008

Wait, what's the problem? We aren't 1930's Germany (yet) so it's hardly a crime to not stand for or acknowledge the Pledge of Allegiance. If anything, it's admirable to dismiss it- shows more than unthinking love of country.

And the only other things mentioned in that article include, heavens to Betsy, acknowledging the occasional pot smoking and a speeding incident. Speeding's not a huge deal, although 94 in a 55 is pretty irresponsible, but not exactly like running a dogfighting ring or getting filthy rich off the exploitation of Indonesian sweatshop laborers and inner-city crime and desperation like Michael Jordan and every other Nike/Reebok/et al endorser who does nothing to question the business model that generates their wealth. The pot thing needs to be said by everyone who smokes pot, because our drug laws are horrific, racist, irrational, and destroying the infrastructure of our society. Oh, and he apparently had a birthday party despite having lost in a playoff game. What, he shouldn't celebrate his own birthday? If I have a shitty day at work on my own birthday, I'll enjoy having a party to take the edge off!

So... everything I read in that article says Josh Howard has a better head on his shoulders than say Lebron James, who I remember as much for his dissing of Stephon Marbury's more socially-conscious shoes than for anything he does on the court.

But of course ESPN, knee jerk Americans, and the media as a whole like to make fire out of a lot of empty smoke. I mean, jknemo says "shut up and play". Apparently expressing your opinions to your friends is verboten if you're... an... athlete. I don't quite follow that. Jknemo is a whatever-he-is, and he's expressing his opinion here. Hey jknemo, just shut up and do whatever-it-is-you-do. That explains why you are a whatever-it-is-your- occupation-is and not a brain surgeon.

posted by hincandenza at 06:36 PM on September 17, 2008

Hmm. American athlete celebrates substance of American freedoms by spurning ritual.

Lynching at 11.

posted by rodgerd at 07:48 PM on September 17, 2008

Could anyone out there in spofi land explain to me why there would be a causal relationship between not "celebrating" the national anthem and being black? Is there some sort of racism involved in that song that I've never heard about? Just curious.

I completely support Howard's right to ignore, or even speak out against the national anthem (ironically, that's kind of what the anthem represents) but, unless he wants to come across as just another dumbass in front of a camera, maybe he should expand on his line of thought. I can say that I hate felt tip pens because I'm white, but it doesn't exactly enlighten my listeners as to what is wrong, or at least what my issue is, with felt tip pens.

posted by tahoemoj at 08:53 PM on September 17, 2008

I'm not trying to defend Josh here. I've met the dude out on the street, and he's a sincerely approachable guy. I do wish that if he continued to do this kind of thing that he had a leg to stand on, but I'm not going to crucify someone for what a random guy caught with his blackberry three months ago.

And let's be honest here: the national anthem does kind of suck.

And a fish in the sky. And a big monkey...pie.

Shit is giving me tired-head.

posted by Ufez Jones at 09:13 PM on September 17, 2008

I am not saying docshredder was completely right in what he said. However, just because you graduate from a college doesn't mean you LEARNED anything. Dexter Manley graduated college without learning to read. Many ballplayers are pushed through the system. Obviously he slept through American Histroy classes if he even attended them.

posted by JohnnyBallsack at 09:48 PM on September 17, 2008

An ironic thing that I just picked up on. This happened at an Allen Iverson Celebrity Softball game. If Allen Iverson has enough class and respect to play the anthem before his own charity event, then in my eyes Howard was also disrespecting Iverson and the charity with his comments and actions. Unless I am mistaken, Iverson is also black. So maybe it isn't a black thing Josh.

posted by JohnnyBallsack at 10:46 PM on September 17, 2008

Sorry if my earlier comments offended anyone, but this type of stuff really pisses me off. The guy makes more money than 99.9% of the country and he has the audacity to disrespect the national anthem? Then he blames it on being black? Wow!

I guess shooting him in the face would be little extreme.

posted by docshredder at 11:01 PM on September 17, 2008

In the video they discussed whether or not this would be something handled solely by Cuban and the Mavs, or if the commissioner would somehow wade in. It will be interesting to see how whatever form of reprimand is coming down the pipe will play out.

And all I have to add to this discussion so far is that blind patriotism is a real problem. But blatant (and hypocritical) disregard for it is too.

posted by Spitztengle at 12:11 AM on September 18, 2008

Look everyone's personal opinion about what he said is valid. Not going to debate that. But looking at it from a professional standpoint, he BLEW it! It's not even about being a role model. It's about knowing when your private thoughts (or jokes) might become public fodder. As in ANY TIME YOU ARE IN FRONT OF A CAMERA. My guess is that this will eventually blow over. He will probably make some kind of written public apology through a spokesman that it was meant in jest but that he should have been more sensitive. Unless the people of Dallas demand his head, he'll keep playing for the Mavs. And if he keeps putting up 20 pts a game, it will be forgotten.

posted by bluesdog at 01:07 AM on September 18, 2008

Mr. Ballsack is correct...Where is the African American community up in arms about this. A comment is made from a white shock jock in jest makes headlines and an outrage in the community. Yet a black athlete says something that puts down african americans in general by saying they do not need to respect the flag, the country, the government or the soldiers that fought for his rights for free speech. I am surprised (but not really) that the "black" activists are not getting involved. I guess it is ok in the black community to put each other down, but when an outsider does it it becomes national news.

How up in arms would it be if the Redeem Team would have gotten a silver medal instead of gold. Then walked off the podium during the ceremony and said "It ain't my country, why should I stay?" They would all be punished the same way Dickhead Howard should be.

Yes, he may be a foolish young man that was trying to be funny or macho. He needs to know better. For a college educated man he is either an idiot or an asshole. Either way I would never cheer for him.

posted by urallcloolis at 01:28 AM on September 18, 2008

bobfoot, I really don't want to take up too much of your time, but clearly there are limits on what, or where, a person can say certain things.

We are not allowed to scream racially charged, hate speech in the middle of a crowded mall.(Hate speech)

I am not allowed to stand in a public forum and make false statements about your sexual habits. (slander)

There are numerous laws that restrict our freedom, all of which are designed to protect the greater good of society.

Now, did Howard violate the law? Probably not. I would bet that he violated the sensibilities of the vast majority of Americans, regardless of their race. I have spoken with several black co-workers and friends that have said that they think he's an idiot for what he said. Of course, one added "that doesn't mean I don't want him on the Mav's"

posted by dviking at 02:06 AM on September 18, 2008

The whole American patriotism during nothing sports events is so sad, and highlights exactly what is wrong with the country in regards to jingoistic fervor.

Sure, play your national anthem prior to big INTERNATIONAL events like the World Cup etc... But random baseball games, NASCAR races etc... It's pathetic.

In fact under a psychological evaluation, America would probably be labeled a bully. Throws it's weight around, beats up those weaker than itself, engages in grandiose posturing and rituals, but ultimately is a very insecure scared little child.

posted by Drood at 02:27 AM on September 18, 2008

OK, I'll be the Peter Norman here. I have the right nationality, at least.

I've represented my country, but said to people that I'd only stand for the anthem and show respect if they played the obscure second verse as well. Because I agree with THOSE lyrics.

posted by owlhouse at 08:05 AM on September 18, 2008

Where is the African American community up in arms about this

I'm gonna assume that it's because this guy is an idiot and (most) everyone knows that getting into an argument with an idiot is a losing battle.

Josh Howard is a joke. He may have the ability to shoot a ball in a basket but when it comes to basic common sense, apparently he has none. To make the claim that he doesn't "celebrate" the National Anthem because he's black is a slap to the face to all African-Americans that fought for this country so he would have the abilty to express his freedom of speech in the first place.

What's sad is that he made a little over $8 million dollars just last year playing basketball in this country and had absolutely no problems cashing the checks that he was given. Some people need a reality check to realize just how good they got it and others need a swift kick in the ass, this guy needs both.

posted by BornIcon at 09:09 AM on September 18, 2008

Me thinks that perhaps a few here need to travel abroad more...visit some countries in which there is a dictatorship in power.

Sure, we play the anthem at sporting events, and grade school kids say the Pledge of Allegiance, and most companies fly the flag. This is slight compared to what happens in many countries. You've seen the photos from places like North Korea, China, etc., where the ruler's picture is plastered everywhere, where people have to listen to the anthem daily, where even the slightest disrepect will be cause for severe punishment. Americans have it easy in terms of the amount of nationalistic behaviors that are expected.

As I said before, all that is needed is for one to stand there for a couple of minutes.

Or, maybe just show up late, that way you won't be bothered by the playing of our National Anthem.

As for me, at my son's high school football game this week, I plan to sing a bit louder. (my apologies to anyone that happens to be anywhere near me)

posted by dviking at 10:00 AM on September 18, 2008

That didn't stop them from going after John Rocker

Rocker was an idiot for his racist and gay bashing comments he made while playing for the Braves but it wasn't as if he disrespected the country that provided him with the financial stability to live an above moderate life.

Josh Howard is making millions playing in the United States and regardless if he were black, white, latino or asian, the least he could do is show a little respect. If he was a citizen of another country, that would be a different story and even more evil spirited but he's benefitting from playing in the USA and should show more class than this.

posted by BornIcon at 11:01 AM on September 18, 2008

Americans have it easy in terms of the amount of nationalistic behaviors that are expected.

I hate it when our standards of freedom are measured by what takes place in tyrannical countries, as if our goal was merely to be "better" than them.

No nationalistic behavior should be expected in this country or any other truly free country. The sentiments expressed in the National Anthem and Pledge of Allegiance become totally meaningless if they are compelled.

posted by rcade at 11:40 AM on September 18, 2008

This guys is a total ass. Gee if a black man becomes president with it remove the permanent chip on the shoulder of this asshole, will they he still cry this isn't his country? Will we ever get past this shit? It's time to move forward. If you don't like America, work and speak responsibily to change it, move to a better country, or shut the fuck up.

posted by Atheist at 11:46 AM on September 18, 2008

Absolutely he has the right to say what he wants. There's nothing illegal about it. That being said, he should know better. I will feel no sympathy for him if the fallout around this costs him his job in Dallas. Maybe New Jersey would be a better fit...

posted by Tinman at 12:15 PM on September 18, 2008

I'm with Howard. I hate all forms of forced shows of fake patriotism. Patriotism is teaching your kids about the Constitution, not memorizing the pledge of allegiance. Patriotism is participating in your country's elections not participating in the National Anthem. The flag, the anthem, the pledge of allegiance are not our country. They are a flag, a song, and a saying, and that's it.

Barack Obama may be forced to denounce Josh Howard, but I can't imagine any other black person caring one whit.

posted by bperk at 12:47 PM on September 18, 2008

Wow, this thread isn't going the way I expected when I opened it. I figured a few people would be praising Howard for standing up for what he believes in (which I doubt he even knows what he believes in), and few people calling for his head, and the rest just kinda shaking their head. But, a surprisingly and IMHO disappointingly large number of people are actually siding with him and using this as an opportunity to

The flag, national anthem, and pledge of allegiance are not just objects as some of you would like us to believe - they are representations of what it means to be an American - just like voting, Free Speech, and learning our history. I'm not happy with several things about this country, but I damn well am not going to disparage a significant sign of respect for this country to demonstrate that. I don't like everything that my parents have ever done, but they're by-in-large vary good people, so I don't walk up to people who are giving their parents a hug and tell them "you fuckin' wimp - my parents should just leave me the hell alone."

It's a matter of respect. If you don't want to participate then don't. And, if you feel so negatively toward this country as to go to the extra step, then you truly should find another place to reside, and don't hold it against me if I have a few choice words for you on the way out.

posted by littleLebowski at 01:44 PM on September 18, 2008

"the national anthem, other than having been written a long time ago, is not mentioned in any part of your dissertation and the song makes no reference in support of slavery or anything else that is "less than great" about this country."

The National Anthem represents our country. If someone wanted to take a principled stand against the treatment of Blacks in the U.S. and chose not to sing the National Anthem, that's their right.

I personally would not agree with them. But I would not think that their claim is completely without merit either.

By the way, L.L., dissertation? I'm flattered.

posted by cjets at 02:16 PM on September 18, 2008

What do you mean, "I don't think I said any such thing"? I copied "fake patriotism" from your post.

Regardless, funny enough, I'm fairly close to your and cjets' sentiments, but you just seem to be carrying it to an extreme that I disagree with. If all we were talking about was "chose not to sing the National Anthem, that's their right. I personally would not agree with them. But I would not think that their claim is completely without merit either." or "whether he stands for the Anthem or not. ... I'd just appreciate the same respect for Americans who choose to express that some other way.", I'd be done talking and I'd actually defend that stance. But Howard didn't simply choose not to sing - he chose to go the extra step of foul-mouthingly disrespect the anthem. THAT'S the part of this that some people here seem to be praising him for and is what I take exception. Again, don't say the Pledge or sing the Anthem - fine. Live and let live. Badmouth the flag, Pledge or Anthem simply as something you think is stupid - fine (freedom of speech). But "live and let live" no longer applies. My freedom of speech now kicks in and you're going to hear about how wrong I think you are.

posted by littleLebowski at 03:13 PM on September 18, 2008

'he chose to go the extra step of foul-mouthingly disrespect the anthem. THAT'S the part of this that some people here seem to be praising him for and is what I take exception.'

I did say he was a bonehead in my first post. When I talk about someone taking a principled stand, I am NOT talking about Howard.

But the general notion that a black man may have issues with the U.S., and, as a result, chooses not to stand for the Anthem, is not without merit.

And yes, you're absolutely right. Just as he has the first amendment right to disrespect the anthem, you have that same right to tell him how wrong he is.

posted by cjets at 03:29 PM on September 18, 2008

"I just think he was being a shit-talking dummy who thought he was clever in gurning on a song that many hold dear."

Yeah, I'd pretty much agree with that as well.

posted by cjets at 03:50 PM on September 18, 2008

I'm torn, lbb. Part of me says that acknowledging those things are such simple and brief ways of acknowledging our respect for what we have as individuals and as a country, then why not. But, I definitely see the logic that overuse reduces their impact - maybe even generates apathy or even mild forms of contempt.

posted by littleLebowski at 04:36 PM on September 18, 2008

Howard's an idiot and it's his right to prove it. The American flag, Pledge and National Anthem should be respected but that's a personal choice. Many times I stood in the crease and sang along with "Oh Canada" yet luckily I'm not Canadian. Maybe Howard would have been happier if they had played "Lift Ev'ry Voice and Sing" which is considered by some to be the "Black National Anthem". that's one that I won't stand up for because I find it to be a sad comentary on everything that Dr. King preached and stood for. I'm a rare conservative that believes that burning the American flag in protest is the highest form of free political speech. The 1st admendment does give us freedom of speech but it was placed in the Bill of Rights to make sure political speech was protected. Just try yelling fire in a theater or "BOMB" at airport security. To address what some one brought up about blacks not being considered a complete person in the constitution, that had very little to do with slavery itself. That's there because the slave states didn't want to give the slaves any rights but they wanted them to count as full persons for the purpose of being able to count them when it came time to assigning the number of delegates that the slave states could send to the congress. The free states wouldn't go for that so you have the partial person clause. Yup, America's a bully and to that I say...bully. I'm proud to be an American and I don't mind standing at a football game or anywhere that they choose to play it.

posted by budman13 at 05:31 PM on September 18, 2008

budman13:

Maybe Howard would have been happier if they had played "Lift Ev'ry Voice and Sing" which is considered by some to be the "Black National Anthem". that's one that I won't stand up for because I find it to be a sad comentary on everything that Dr. King preached and stood for.

Since "Lift Ev'ry Voice and Sing" was written 29 years before Dr. King was born, I don't see how it can be a commentary of whatever emotional flavor on anything he did.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 06:37 PM on September 18, 2008

Also, I'm just wondering if you "celebrate" the millions of dollars you're paid for playing a game in this country? The fact is, this country doesn't NEED you. If you were to disappear and head back to "The Mother Land", not a soul would miss you or your perpetual antagonisms and provocations. (Better get a Dictionary - I'm sure, with your limited vocabulary, you'll need it) By the way, please take Obama with you.

posted by Glenn at 07:40 PM on September 18, 2008

"If you were to disappear and head back to "The Mother Land", not a soul would miss you or your perpetual antagonisms and provocations. By the way, please take Obama with you."

Wow, did you just tell two American citizens to go back to Africa? Maybe you should go back to that spot under the bridge you call home, Troll.

And, by the way, please take McCain, his hundred years war, failing economy, flip flops on every issue, lies and his disastrously unqualified VP with you as well.

posted by cjets at 09:06 PM on September 18, 2008

Remember YYM's always sage advice regarding feeding the trolls. That one'll flame out on his own,

posted by tahoemoj at 09:16 PM on September 18, 2008

Another dumb jock saying something dumb. He should go play in the europe league if he hates it here so much. FOAD you idiot

posted by postalmayhem at 10:01 PM on September 18, 2008

"What I was trying to get at was that Howard sounded like a dumbass for not getting into his meaning. If he had looked into the camera and said "I don't respect the national anthem of a country which has treated Afircan-Americans so poorly throughout its history," I would certainly respect that."

It's quite obvious that little Joshy doesn't have the mental capacity to think of something that deep.

Stick to hoops ass-hat.

BTW, has anyone figured out what he said about Obama at the end of this little fit.

posted by docshredder at 11:39 PM on September 18, 2008

to rcade and etagloh...I shouldn't have worded my last post the way I did. Certainly America is far better than any dictatorship in terms of the amount of nationalistic behaviors that are expected of us, that is a given. I should have added that it is really quite difficult to find any developed country that has lower expectations than the US. I've traveled fairly extensively over the past 30 years, and i have family on three continents. In every country I have visited they play their anthems at all events, and everyone is respectful. I don't think the Howard type of behavior would be accepted as well as it was here in most European countries. Ironically, it's our very freedoms which allow him to be a total ass.

Lastly, and please keep in mind that is not meant to be racist, just factual. I find it odd that Howard thinks the American flag is tainted because we used to allow slavery. As a black man I would think that he'd embrace America because we learned from our mistakes and have worked to make this a place where people of all colors can succeed, not perfect yet, but better. If one studies the slavery trade, it appears that most of Africa still utilizes slavery, in fact, there are more slaves today than there ever were in any point in history. Every race, and probably every country has experienced slavery in some form in history.

(BTW, I verified my points with several sites, not just Wiki)

Have a great day, and I hope this great country of ours treats all of you well today!

posted by dviking at 10:09 AM on September 19, 2008

lbb, The song itself whether it be "Lift Ev'ry Voice" or "Another Saturday Night" by Sam Cook is not the point that I was making. The point is that for a song to be designated as "the black national anthem" is contrary to the doctrine of unity that Dr. King preached.

But you were trying to make the point by referencing a certain song, so no, it's not irrelevant which song or (as I pointed out) when it was written. You talk about the doctrine of unity that Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. preached in the 50s and 60s, and then you cite the "Negro National Anthem" as an example of going against that -- but "Lift Every Voice" was written in 1900, at a time when African-Americans were subject to extensive de jure and de facto segregation that had the effect of preventing them from being a part of this country except as purely subservient, second-class citizens. Given that African-Americans were prevented from participating fully as citizens, the creation of a separate "national anthem" made total sense. Its use as an example erodes rather than supports your point.

BTW, "unity" was not Dr. King's only message, just the only one that a lot of people "remember" today, because they believe it's appropriate to use it to stifle any dissent. Got a problem with the state of race relations in the US today? Well then you're just making Dr. King spin in his grave, aren't you, because he preached unity and you're a big old...big old...dis-unity-er!

posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:09 PM on September 19, 2008

Dear adammcd,

Since my previous post was removed, I tend to disagree with your statement that we "both have the right to say what we want"... It seems to me that, unless one is in agreement with the general line of thought that the only prejudice shown in this country is exhibited by white people, the result is the usual barrage of being labeled a racist. However, to compare me to Josh Howard is a real stretch... I'm far from being a pampered, overpaid, "in yo face" person who disrespects the country that has provided me with a lavish lifestyle. It's admirable that you've spent time volunteering with AA (African-American) families, but the contempt for whites shown daily in their "music", rantings and collective hatred for white people, dissuades me from even the consideration of contributing my time and effort to do anything for people who somehow feel entitled to the hypocrisy of hating me solely because I'm white... The topic being "Josh Howard Disrespects the National Anthem", I stand by my previous comments. If Josh cannot appreciate the country, and people (of ALL races) who have propelled him to his current "status", than to hell with him. Perhaps he'd benefit from a tour of Africa, where, ironically, the slave trade is still a burgeoning commerce.

posted by Glenn at 03:51 PM on September 19, 2008

Wow, Spitztengle, those emails were terrible. I'm glad Cuban posted them though. Those people (and our very own Glenn) should not be allowed to hide their hatefulness with anonymity.

posted by bperk at 04:43 PM on September 19, 2008

Hey Josh Howard, YOU'RE JUST AN ASSHOLE! If you don't respect the National Anthem or our flag leave. We don't like you anyway. Why don't you try and go play in the Congo. I'm sure the Rebels would love your little black ass there. You are just another black man with a big ass chip on your shoulder and we're sick of it. You are one of the ones that are bringing down the USA so just split. You won't be missed.

posted by dman at 05:29 PM on September 19, 2008

dviking, why on earth would you think I was talking about Africa? I said this country. What does Africa have to do with anything anyway? Are you suggesting that Africa should be a permanent point of reference for any black people in America? So long as it is better than Africa, there should be no complaining, right. I hope you see the problems with this line of thinking. Black people have been here longer than the vast majority of white people who emigrated later. Howard's roots probably go back further than the Kennedys, yet people still persist in talking about Africa. It just needs to stop. His right as an American is to criticize America. It doesn't make him less American to criticize America.

Howard is dealing with racism every day of his life. Look at this thread where he is called uneducated despite his degree from WFU. Look at how grateful he is supposed to be that there is a free market like he was given the gift of millions of dollars and didn't earn a damn thing. Look at all the racist freakin' commentary on this thread (wanting to send him to Africa, etc.). Look at spitz's link where Cuban posted emails from people about Howard. It is bigotry that he deals with everyday. Being rich does not make it disappear. It only makes people discount it.

Black people do not have a spokesperson to speak for all black people. It isn't Howard, it isn't Obama, it isn't Jesse Jackson, it isn't Sharpton. Howard speaks for himself, the exact same as you speak for yourself, and I speak for myself. He is not a representative of all black people. There is no such thing.

posted by bperk at 05:52 PM on September 19, 2008

If Josh Howard wants to reveal himself publicly as a total idiot, that's his right. To me it is an unthinking and misplaced gesture of anger. I have nothing more to say on this.

What I do have to say relates to the manner in which the National Anthem is treated at most sporting events, particularly those with a national audience. What set me off was the Monday night game at Dallas. The announcer said something to the effect of, "Please rise for the singing of our National Anthem. Our featured ENTERTAINER (emphasis mine) tonight is ...". Right there I threw a grade A nutty. The National Anthem is a patriotic song. It is not entertainment, to be butchered by some low-talent over-egoed wannabe star. Play it properly. Get a good marching band, small orchestra, or classically trained voice to perform it. Those in attendance should stand, uncovered, with the right hand over the heart. If someone doesn't care to do this, so be it. It is his choice. Maybe some day he'll figure it out. In the meantime, please tell the producers of these events to recognize that the National Anthem is not just another song.

OK, that's my screed for the day (or month, I hope). I apologise for causing offense, but I just had to vent my feelings on this.

On preview, the same holds true for any venue in the US performing "Oh Canada". It's way too good an anthem to be messed up.

posted by Howard_T at 07:06 PM on September 19, 2008

bperk, I said what I did since you referenced a line from my prior post in which I outlined how I find it hard to understand how Howard could say he won't celebrate the American anthem due to the flag standing for slavery, when slavery is abolished here, but not in his native Africa. Seems to me that he ought to celebrate the fact that we have moved to correct this horrible behavior. I never said he was a spokesperson for anyone except himself, which makes his statement even more confusing as he has a great life here, with financial success beyond most people's dreams.

As I stated, if he had somehow said he was saying what he did to draw attention to the plight of poor blacks that are discriminated against I'd be fine, however, I do not think he speaks for anyone except himself.

As to Howard being called uneducated by someone else, I did not say that, however, I do agree with johnnyballsack in that just because someone has a degree doesn't mean that he learned anything.

As to the racism Howard "puts up with an a daily basis"...do you really think he's reading this stuff? I don't.

posted by dviking at 10:02 PM on September 19, 2008

bperk, maybe you take Howard's rant differently than I do. I feel that if one is going to criticize America for slavery, one ought to know what they are talking about. He does not.

If you want to accept his rants as free speech, you're welcome to that. I accept that, however I do not condone it.

Either work to make things better, or become part of the problem.

To say, while the anthem is playing, "I don't celebrate that shit, because I'm black" in reference to slavery is misguided.

As to my referring to Africa being offensive...wow, that's a stretch. I was merely clearly up some misconceptions regarding slavery. Sorry for the enlightment.

posted by dviking at 01:40 AM on September 20, 2008

Me thinks that perhaps a few here need to travel abroad more...visit some countries in which there is a dictatorship in power.

Sure, we play the anthem at sporting events, and grade school kids say the Pledge of Allegiance, and most companies fly the flag. This is slight compared to what happens in many countries.

Funny, because the American worhsip of the flag, the anthem, pledges in the classroom - well, yes, I do find it creepy. because it's precisely what makes America look less like the free country its founders intended.

As far as "bringing shame on the African-Americans who fought for freedom" - would those be the ones who weren't allowed to fight as first-class soldiers until after World War II?

posted by rodgerd at 02:47 AM on September 20, 2008

rodgerd...exactly what country is it that doesn't play their anthem before events...I've never been there, nor heard of it.

How many countries have you attending sporting events in? Did they play their national anthem at every game?

Show me the country that allows whatever disrepect for their flag/anthem someone wants to show, without the slightest bit of concern.

What do you mean when you talk about a "country" "allow[ing]" this or that? Are you talking about some kind of federal legislation, and enforcement of same? Because, you know, we don't have that in the United States, thank God.

And, please do explain how a very slight amount of worship of the flag somehow makes America not free.

Reverence for the symbol and ignorance of the principles for which it stands, leads to behaviors that absolutely make the United States less free, in the form of threats, bullying behavior, ignorant jackass "back to Africa" remarks and the like.

Yep, I think Howard is a complete ass, i hardly infringed on his freedoms. Yep, I'd like him to stop insinuating that the US flag is somehow tainted because like every other nation we once allowed slavery

He never said the word "slavery". Why do you keep bringing it up?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:13 AM on September 20, 2008

I've been to sporting events in Canada, Mexico, Japan, Norway, Sweden, South Africa, and Germany. Anthems were played in every stadium. People respected the songs, even when it was the US anthem being played.

You have to be kidding me to say that you are less free because you're expected to just stand while the anthem is being played. Or, as was pointed out before, you can go get another beer. Oh my, the restictions we put on people in this land of ours!

Slavery was brought into the thread by people justifying why a black man "doesn't celebrate this shit". The flag, and the anthem, are tainted due to slavery being a part of our past. My arguement is if slavery is being held against the US flag, he has to hold it to every flag.

I'll end my post with this bit of enlightment for those of you that think flag worship is somehow out of hand in the US. Which country was it that did not drape it's athletes in their flags when they won a medal at the olympics? Anthems were played, respect was given. Disrespect at the olympics, even when done by participants from the country whose anthem was being played, does not go over well. The reaction to Howard's behavior is pretty universal.

posted by dviking at 12:48 PM on September 20, 2008

During a ceremony where the flag is hoisted or lowered, or when the flag is passing in a parade, all persons present, except for those in uniform, should face the flag while standing at attention with the right hand over the heart. Hats should be removed and held in the right hand at the left shoulder with the hand over the heart. Those present in uniform should salute. The same rules apply when the national anthem is played. (South African law)

According to the French law[13], outraging the French national anthem or the French flag is liable for a fine of 7,500 and 6 months of incarceration if performed in a gathering. (French law)

Just thought I'd share some information from other "free' countries, to help calm anyone's fears that we're getting out of hand with our nationalistic expectations here in the US.

Okay, I think I'm done, you're all "free" to go about your days. Try not to burn a flag unless you're really pissed off about how America is treating you.

posted by dviking at 02:07 PM on September 20, 2008

"'The Star-Spangled Banner' is going on. I don't celebrate this [expletive]. I'm black." Equates his beliefs with that of every other black American. Smart.

On another note he shows he's right in tune with people his age and younger. Speaking seemingly private thoughts right into a camera or microphone without considering that they might come back to hurt him. Straight out of the MySpace YouTube Facebook generation.

posted by Newbie Walker at 06:17 AM on September 21, 2008

dviking:

You have to be kidding me to say that you are less free because you're expected to just stand while the anthem is being played. Or, as was pointed out before, you can go get another beer. Oh my, the restictions we put on people in this land of ours!

There are a lot of people talking in here, so it's kind of pointless when you make "you" statements without making clear who it is you're talking about, or whether you're speaking generically. It also helps if you reference statements that people have actually made, rather than a strawman statement that's easy to attack. If, however, you want someone to go there, I will oblige, and try to impart an important principle at the same time. I am, in fact, less free because I'm expected to stand for the national anthem. I don't mind doing so, but I am less free when that expectation is placed on me, when it is enforced by anything ranging from sniffy looks from my neighbors, to some self-proclaimed "patriot" with a made-in-China yellow ribbon decal deciding to key-job my car, to a stadium official deciding to toss me out of my paid-for seat. I am less free when my behavior is coerced, and if you deny this, you are simply humpty-dumptying the definition of freedom, the definition of coercion, or probably both. And -- here's the important principle -- it does not matter a damn whether you think the restriction is trivial. It exists. That's enough.

Slavery was brought into the thread by people justifying why a black man "doesn't celebrate this shit". The flag, and the anthem, are tainted due to slavery being a part of our past. My arguement is if slavery is being held against the US flag, he has to hold it to every flag.

So, because they brought in a point that Howard did not make, you can therefore use it as a strawman for your argument? That makes no sense at all. Find out what Howard meant by "I'm black", then go from there.

I'll end my post with this bit of enlightment for those of you that think flag worship is somehow out of hand in the US. Which country was it that did not drape it's athletes in their flags when they won a medal at the olympics?

As my late lamented grandfather would have said, "This is not a competition to see who's the worst." The argument that other countries have a worse record of coerced patriotic fervor has already been raised and shot down in this thread; it won't fly any better now for the experience.

Freedom is a relative word, of course, we do not have 100% freedom, as anarchy would rule the day.

That wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. Anarchy, by the way, is not chaos, which I think is what you're really trying to get at here.

You are not less free if you are expected to some respect for the dead, your mother, your teachers, and the perhaps the national anthem.

So, define "some respect". If my idea of "respect" differs from yours, what then? And what if my sacred symbols are not the same as yours? Must you revere my symbols as you want me to revere the national anthem, mom, apple pie, etc.? And is that true no matter what those symbols are?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 11:25 AM on September 22, 2008

sorry, rambling too long

5) Lastly, yes, I threw out a very general "you" instead of targeting one specific statement. You have known me well enough to know I understand the priciple of highlighting a statement that you're referring to, but thanks for the clarification. I threw out the "you" because there were multiple posts lamenting the loss of their 'freedom" due to expectations being put on them to show some respect. I will still say that your freedoms are not comprimised due to the expectations on showing respect to the flag, because of the myriad of choices available to you. Avoid situations in which the flag will be presented, go to the bathroom, get a beer, simply stand there and pay no attention whatsoever, or make videos of yourself stating why you don't celebrate this shit. After all, no one has arrested Howard, he hasn't been fired, and he is free to do whatever he pleases tonight. For me, that's to go watch MNF and hope that Sproles can gain 150 yards and knock down 2 TD's. My fantasy team is counting on him!

posted by dviking at 08:41 PM on September 22, 2008

I've been to sporting events in Canada, Mexico, Japan, Norway, Sweden, South Africa, and Germany. Anthems were played in every stadium. People respected the songs, even when it was the US anthem being played.

International competitions? Well, that's clearly anthem territory. School competitions? Not so much. And since you've never visited Britain: they don't have 'God Save The Queen' and flaggery and people marching around in uniform when two under-16 first XIs play football. Or at Premier League matches, for that matter.

Americans do the flag-and-anthem stuff an awful lot for sporting events, regardless of how important they are. Really. This doesn't make Howard any less of a silly gobshite. It does mean, though, that you're arguing apples and oranges: when the French and South African anthems get played at sporting events, it signifies that they are considered of national importance.

(Oh, and on public radio in Australia, the two comedians who do the play-by-play for the three-game State of Origin rugby series and the Aussie Rules final replace the singing of 'Advance Australia Fair' with 'I Thank You' by Lionel Rose.)

posted by etagloh at 11:54 PM on September 24, 2008