11/21/24
February 19, 2007
Martin finds himself odd man out ... again: Kevin Harvick comes from 7th in the final laps to win the Daytona 500 by .020 seconds. The ending was well worth waiting for. Congrats to Kevin Harvick and the Sportsmanship Award should go to Mark Martin.
posted by dbt302 to auto racing at 10:04 AM - 43 comments
ok, this is what me and most of my friends say. when the last lap crash happened, martin was ahead of harvick, caution shoulda come out, field freeze, martin would win, just like that, nascar officials are retarded sometimes!
posted by football_and_nascar_fan at 10:54 AM on February 19, 2007
I would have liked it if Martin would have won. Having said that I am just as pleased that Harvick won. It's called " racin " I don't want to hear all the B.S. about when the yellow " should have " been shown. It was thrown when it was thrown. Be happy for the winner and say better luck next time to the runner up.
posted by Ironhead at 10:56 AM on February 19, 2007
ok, this is what me and most of my friends say. when the last lap crash happened, martin was ahead of harvick, caution shoulda come out, field freeze, martin would win, just like that, nascar officials are retarded sometimes! If it had been Harvick in the lead or Jeff Gordan or Jimmy Johnson you can bet the caution would have come out.
posted by scottypup at 11:06 AM on February 19, 2007
My thought process is that if Nascar threw the flag when Kyle Busch spun, odds are, the wreck was just going to keep happening. Then Nascar has to go back to the last scoring loop to see who was where. Where would the cars be placed who wrecked during the caution? In their original spot or at the end of the lead lap? I think Nascar did the right thing by not throwing the caution. I agree that Nascar has to get more consistant with the things they do. It has gone both ways. They have thrown cautions for cars that did a 360 and kept going and not thrown cautions for what happened yesterday. I can hope that by what happened last night, they will work on getting more consistant. Just remember, they are making judgement calls just like refs in basketball, football, and umpires in baseball. They are not going to make everyone happy.
posted by dbt302 at 11:07 AM on February 19, 2007
dbt I agree they are making judgement calls on the spur of the moment. But after watching NASCAR for over 20 years it is painfully obvious they have certain drivers they always make calls in favor of. You see it in calls liekt he yellow flag issue yesterday and you see it in penalties and such that are handed down where they do have time to think about it and examine it.
posted by scottypup at 11:23 AM on February 19, 2007
That was one incredible finish. How about Clint Bowyer sliding across the finish line upside-down and on fire? I'll go with whatever Darryl Waltrip says, and he said he thought NASCAR did the right thing not putting out the caution. That's got to be tough for him because he was openly pulling for Mark Martin.
posted by wfrazerjr at 11:23 AM on February 19, 2007
This just proves once again that NASCAR can not follow their own rules. The rules clearly state that when a crash happens the field is frozen at that second. It was even mentioned by the broadcast team before the last restart. Their actions caused unnecessary danger for several drivers. What if one of the drivers that were forced to drive top speed to the flag had hit the upside-down car and badly injured the driver. Is this in the sprit of the new safety first NASCAR? I think not. Bad move by NASCAR. Mark Martin, not one of my favorite drivers by a long shot, won that race according to the NASCAR rules.
posted by vipers-pit at 11:58 AM on February 19, 2007
"My thought process is that if Nascar threw the flag when Kyle Busch spun, odds are, the wreck was just going to keep happening. Then Nascar has to go back to the last scoring loop to see who was where. Where would the cars be placed who wrecked during the caution" NASCAR has real time GPS in each car. It would have been so easy to freeze that data when the crash happened, it would have taken all for one minute to place the cars in their proper finishing spot. i watched the GPS deal on Nascar.com, and it shows the cars clearly, without the smoke blocking the view. NASCAR was again WRONG WRONG WRONG!
posted by vipers-pit at 12:03 PM on February 19, 2007
How about Clint Bowyer sliding across the finish line upside-down and on fire? I'm not a fan of NASCAR (I only caught a few laps including the finish) but that was a fantastic image. NASCAR has real time GPS in each car. In fact, they advertised after the race about how (for the next one) you should log into NASCAR.com and watch the race on their website, using a computerized interpretation of every car location. "Any car, any view" was their motto. To say they wouldn't know the location of the cars is silly.
posted by grum@work at 12:09 PM on February 19, 2007
Bad publicity is still publicity. They have a bunch of people talking about it who will, likely, keep watching and continue to give publicity to the sport.
posted by igottheblues at 12:10 PM on February 19, 2007
Great Race. Was glad to see Harvick but I heard the announcers plainly say that if there was a wreck on the last lap then the field would be frozen. Nascar got this one wrong. And would someone please stick a sock in daryll waltrips's piehole. I'm sick of "Boogity, Boogity, Boogity"
posted by texasred at 12:20 PM on February 19, 2007
This just proves once again that NASCAR can not follow their own rules. The rules clearly state that when a crash happens the field is frozen at that second. You are correct BUT they have to throw the caution for this to take affect. Just because they wreck doesn't automatically mean the field is frozen. NASCAR has real time GPS in each car. They might have GPS in each car but they will still go back to the last scoring loop. They have multiple scoring loops around the track in case they have to go back and check the scoring. The new GPS will be a step forward so they won't have to go to scoring loops. Until Nascar feels like it is the right thing to do, they will continue with the scoring loops. Kasey Kahne lost 30 positions at Indy last year when Nascar didn't throw a caution when there was a wreck in turn 1 on the last lap and he got wrecked in turn 3 later that lap. He lost well over 100 points because of it.
posted by dbt302 at 12:23 PM on February 19, 2007
They should have thrown the yellow. Everyone behind that spin had to RACE through it or lose positions when the finish line is in sight. Throw the yellow and they can slow down and go around the trouble rather than mashing the peddle to the floor and hoping not to kill the people you hit on the way to the finish line. I don't care who wins, they were wrong to keep the green out.
posted by Familyman at 12:34 PM on February 19, 2007
"They should have thrown the yellow. Everyone behind that spin had to RACE through it or lose positions when the finish line is in sight. Throw the yellow and they can slow down and go around the trouble rather than mashing the peddle to the floor and hoping not to kill the people you hit on the way to the finish line. I don't care who wins, they were wrong to keep the green out." This is what I have been saying. This is the entire reason they put a stop to racing to the checked flag in the first place. DRIVER SAFTY. And NASCAR threw that out the window last night, and it was just plain wrong!! I have said all along that NASCAR only applies the rules when it befits them. Driver safety is not their interest, money and a “good show” at the cost of the health of the drives is their priority. When they see 60 + cars show up to fill a field of 43 or whatever, they look at the drivers as a disposable commodity.
posted by vipers-pit at 01:02 PM on February 19, 2007
If I remember correctly, Kyle Busch and Matt Kenseth both spun toward the infield. Elliott Saddler made a move to the right and pinned someone against the outside wall. The only car that spun back out into traffic was the car of Clint Bowyer and he was upside down when he did that. The cars that got spun in the back of the pack were cars that got rear ended by others cars that couldn't slow down. You have 20+ cars running 185 mph. If the caution had been thrown as soon as Kyle spun, you would have still had a major pile-up because not everyone gets slowed up in time, at the same time, and those cars don't stop on a dime. The cars that got spun or would have got spun would have been placed behind the cars that finished. A prime example of that is when Jimmy Johnson and Dale Jr. both got spun at the end of the race in Talladega. They were placed at the tail end of the lead lap and a caution flew in that instance.
posted by dbt302 at 01:19 PM on February 19, 2007
“NASCAR announced Thursday that racing back to the caution flag would no longer be permitted. Other parts of the rules change are: Once the yellow flag is waved, all drivers must immediately reduce speed to a "cautious pace" and get in a single-file line behind the leader.” These two statements are in direct conflict with each other. “NASCAR also made a small alteration to its pit road rules. All cars will be required to come on to pit road single-file, and any passing must be made to the right. Passing to the left would result in a penalty of restarting at the end of the longest line for a caution penalty or a pass-through on pit road for a green penalty. “ Well we all watched the M&Ms car pass Kurt Bush on the left Sunday. Opps NASCAR forgot their one of their own rules AGAIN. “Darby said simple track position would determine the scoring order when a yellow is displayed. “ NOT the last scoring loop. I go to tons of racing and was there when Indy became the first track to use them. "We'll review it; we'll make a call on it -- end of story." "It's going to add some more elements that we're going to have to make more judgment calls during the event, but I think we're capable of doing that," Hoots said. Judgment calls cannot be appealed, NASCAR insisted. A call on who was ahead when the caution comes out is a "balls and strikes" call by the control tower, Darby said, and can't be challenged.” There you have it, the new rule is officially, we will decide depending on who is involved and who is in a favorable status with NASCAR. "Balls and strikes" baby, you can’t get any more cut and dry when you are dealing with peoples lives than that!! Did I miss something or did NASCAR not give any penalty to the driver that ran over the crew member of the team in the pit stall in front of him?
posted by vipers-pit at 01:27 PM on February 19, 2007
just found this on the net - "NASCAR doesn't release its rules publicly"
posted by vipers-pit at 01:31 PM on February 19, 2007
Doggone, the king of 2nd lets me down again. I was pullin' hard for Mark to take his 1st, and was kind of hopin' that Happy Harv' would pull a Michael Waltrip when DE Sr. took his 1st, but it just wan't meant to be. Matter of fact I was really upset at Happy for doin' it, but it is racing, and he broke line first. Maybe he should've asked for some "toyota juice." 2nd - I do think that without the crashes etc., we would see a decline in NASCAR #'s at the track. Why exactly do we watch NASCAR? The beautiful drafting ability? To see that clump of 43 cars travel in one pack? Pit stops? No, these races are watched to see "what happens next and how bad the next crash will be. Think about this, "A NASCAR race without a crash." Not very inspiring.
posted by bavarianmotorworker at 01:36 PM on February 19, 2007
http://www.news-record.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070219/NEWSREC0105/702190312 Harvick blew past Kyle Busch in the third turn of the final lap after getting a push from Matt Kenseth at the end of the backstretch. The momentum pushed Harvick's yellow Chevy high into the banking and alongside Martin, who seemed to be on his way to winning the race he has struggled with for his entire career. Martin could have pushed Harvick to the wall in the fourth turn. He could have turned him in the tri-oval. Instead, he seemed to wait for a push from Busch. Busch dropped to the apron entering the chute coming out of 4, bobbled and slammed into Kenseth. Martin never lifted and moved back ahead of Harvick, who had nosed ahead in the seconds earlier. "I thought I would get the push from Busch," Martin said. "I didn't know he wasn't there anymore." Busch disappeared in the smoke just as Harvick pulled alongside Martin. They both waited for the flagman, who leaned over the track and dropped the checkered with the 07 Chevy of Clint Bowyer tumbling and burning into the infield. At that moment, the outcome was in the hands of NASCAR. The message from the control center above the track to the flagman came as the cars reached the line. "Put it out," David Hoots, NASCAR's race director, radioed down. The yellow flag flew after Harvick passed under the flag stand. "When the 07 went sideways on the track, the yellow came out," said NASCAR spokesman Ramsey Poston. "At that point the 29 was ahead of the 01 and declared the winner." That was a good explanation and all, except that's not what happened. Bowyer was upside down before the leaders took the checkered flag. The caution was thrown after that, technically, and according to NASCAR's own rules, after the race ended. The fact that there was an official margin of victory (.020 second) proves it. There is no margin of victory in a race that ends under caution. And since no caution flew before the end, NASCAR had no official account of the crash. In effect, it never happened. The initial race results showed all the cars involved were running at the end. The entire viewing world saw the 07 burning and tumbling down the tri-oval with a sixth of the field spinning and crashing through the smoke and fire, so NASCAR's reasoning was as brazen as Martin's wasn't. Harvick will go down in history as the winner of the 49th Daytona 500 in part because NASCAR didn't follow the rules and Martin didn't want to cause any more controversy. ONLY IN NASCAR, THIS THE SECOND YEAR IN A ROW THE BLEW IT IN THE BIGEST RACE OF THE YEAR “FOR THEM”
posted by vipers-pit at 01:43 PM on February 19, 2007
What a bunch of whinners. As far as nascar deciding who should have won is a load of bull. Who would have been a more popular winner than Mark Martin. It would have been one of the greatest wins in Daytona history. Right alongside Earnhardt Sr. and D.W. Get over it.
posted by Ironhead at 01:46 PM on February 19, 2007
That was one incredible finish. How about Clint Bowyer sliding across the finish line upside-down and on fire? I loved that bit. Made me think how much of a genius Will Ferrell is. "Let me quote the Colonel - I am too drunk to taste this chicken."
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:47 PM on February 19, 2007
I'm distantly related to Mark (my first name is Martin, which is my grandmother's maiden name). I really, really, really wanted him to win the race. That's all I have to add - I can't argue NASCAR technicalities.
posted by mbd1 at 01:51 PM on February 19, 2007
Their actions caused unnecessary danger The wreck happened at !90 mph between the seconed and third place cars. The leaders were not in danger of hitting anything, and at that speed on the last lap, the cars behind the wreck were going to be part of it or no. Just throwing the yellow flag was not going to stop the wreck from playing out. Goddam, when did NASCAR become such a candy ass sport. Yes safety should be first priority, but lets be real, driving 200 mph does carry a degree of danger. If your goal is to make racing as safe as driving on the freeway, it's going to be about as much fun to watch. NASCAR has taken control of the out of the hands of the drivers and teams by turning em in to speck cars. Anyone who has been watching NASCAR for a long time knows how much better it could be.
posted by CB900 at 01:57 PM on February 19, 2007
You have to run all out till the yellow comes out,no matter what happens behind you! Mark Martin said he got beat and Harvick could not have done it with out the bump drafting of his teamate Jeff Burton who pushed the 2 cars in front of him to put Kevin in the lead.It would have been ridiculas to restart a race already in overtime after that mess.Sorry Mark I wanted you to win but thats racin,it sure wasn't boring.
posted by buckner86 at 02:03 PM on February 19, 2007
Once the yellow flag is waved, all drivers must immediately reduce speed to a "cautious pace" and get in a single-file line behind the leader.” That IS the rule. This isn't anything new. This rule became law back in Loudon when Dale Jarrett was sitting in the middle of the track with cars running back to the start/finish line. They both waited for the flagman, who leaned over the track and dropped the checkered with the 07 Chevy of Clint Bowyer tumbling and burning into the infield. Tumbling? He got on his roof, slid past the start/finish line, and rolled back onto his wheels when he dug into the grass. That is a tumble. Singular, not plural. The fire came from gas running back through the carburetor and onto the hot engine. The story makes it seem like he was a huge fireball. It would have been ridiculas to restart a race already in overtime after that mess. There is only one Green/White/Checkered attempt.
posted by dbt302 at 02:14 PM on February 19, 2007
"I do think that without the crashes etc., we would see a decline in NASCAR #'s at the track." Do you not watch the races? there are several hugh sections on EMPTY SEATS at every race, save 3 or 4. 2004 thru 2006 official TV ratings for NASCAR races. From Jayski http://www.jayski.com/pages/tvratings2006.htm CAN YOU SAY……..OUCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Only five races had a gain in people watching!!! Amazingly 27 races had a drop in people watching!!! I had to count them twice to make sure I wasn’t seeing things. http://www.jayski.com/pages/tvratings2007.htm OUCH this years Daytona 500 had a DROP in TV ratings. 2000 7.6 rating and 18 share 2001 8.4 rating and 19 share 2002 10.9 rating and 26 share 2003 9.8 rating and 21 share RAIN DELAY 2004 10.4 rating and 21 share 2005 10.9 rating and 23 share 2006 11.3 rating and 23 share 2007 10.9 rating and 23 share Numbers don’t lie.
posted by vipers-pit at 02:18 PM on February 19, 2007
I guess you all can’t read. They came out and admitted they broke their own rule. No danger to the top two? I guess the rest of the drivers don’t count. It would have been ridicules to restart a race already in overtime. That’s the point they could not have. If they would have followed the rules they admitted they didn't, Mark would have won. Tumbling? He got on his roof, slid past the start/finish line. I simply quoted the NASCAR officials. Goddam, when did NASCAR become such a candy ass sport. Yes safety should be first priority, but lets be real, driving 200 mph does carry a degree of danger. If your goal is to make racing as safe as driving on the freeway, it's going to be about as much fun to watch. UM look at Formula 1, they have made MASSIVE efforts to improve driver safety, and they continue to have the highest TV ratings world wide. This proves softy does not hurt TV ratings. But since the top two sports in the world have dismal ratings in America, it stands to reason most American fans need their sports spoon feed to them. Keep the attacks coming guys. I will continue to let the facts speak for me.
posted by vipers-pit at 02:33 PM on February 19, 2007
http://nascar.about.com/od/othertracks/a/nascarvsf1.htm Here is another pin head that can’t live without having his racing spoon feed to him. Poor little baby cant understand the magic of spending 30 minutes setting things up for the big move. Soccer and Formula 1 both have the same style; this is why they don’t sell in America.
posted by vipers-pit at 02:38 PM on February 19, 2007
That marks the end of a thread, right - when someone makes 3 straight posts, repeating themselves without someone else making a counter-argument? As someone who only follows NASCAR mildly, regardless of NASCAR's failed explanations and everything else, this does seem to be one of those "sorry about your luck, Mark" situations - sincere, but reality.
posted by littleLebowski at 03:23 PM on February 19, 2007
Anybody who has watched NASCAR for any length of time knows they are inconsistant in their rules interpretations and calls. Certain drivers can do no wrong. Look whos name is listed as winning one of the 125's. Jeff Gordan......in a car that was illegal. Just because a driver is a fan favorite does not mean they are who NASCAR wants to win. They got what they wanted yesterday. EVen if they had to ignore their own rules to get it.
posted by scottypup at 03:52 PM on February 19, 2007
Sorry but the "debris" flag that seams to come out when someone gets a big lead, for a cotton ball on the track, when they leave broken brake rotors on the track all day, it’s an exaggeration but you should get the point. My wife and son are both huge Jeff Gordon fans, (And is new wife is smokin hot, see the latest issue of stuff mag) but I think they were too lenient on him. I think it would be fun to have a points system for the different rules they brake. And the total of those rules is the number of laps the driver has to sit on pit road at the start of the race before he is allowed to enter the track.
posted by vipers-pit at 04:29 PM on February 19, 2007
It was not because it was Jeff Gordon, it was because of the nature of the violation. A bolt backed off on a bracket that held the shock in place. It was not the kind of thing a team who likes thier driver would send him out on the track with. It had backed off and the bracket jammed under the bolt head. If it had backed off all the way it would have put him in the wall. The real problem is the press who try and paint a picture with just one color. Not all failures in the tech. line is cheating. Parts do break or loosen up under the stress of racing. That is a world away from drilling holes in the under body of the car, covering em with tape and then slitting the tape so the air can flow through the trunk.
posted by CB900 at 06:14 PM on February 19, 2007
I think most people (myself included) would have liked to see Mark win. I think even NASCAR with all the selective rule implementation accusations, etc. would have liked to see Mark win. But he didn't. We'll all just have to get over it. At 180 mph with the whole matter happening in seconds, I don't think NASCAR strategists had time to hold a board meeting and decide how to manipulate the outcome.
posted by 1959Giants at 06:45 PM on February 19, 2007
Heres the thing that everyone has seemed to look over. How much of a slap in the face would it have been to Jack Rousch, if Mark would have won in a chevy the first time out of the box, after not being able to do it in his Ford in the 19 years they spent together. I was pulling for Mark , but was just as happy to see Harvick win his first 500. So why would he have just followed Martin to the line as other suggested that he should've done?
posted by TAZ29 at 07:03 PM on February 19, 2007
Like I said to the guy next to me before I left the 500 party, well before halfway, let alone the finish, is the paint dry yet?
posted by FSCCA6 at 07:06 PM on February 19, 2007
Heres the thing that everyone has seemed to look over. What, that Kevin Harvick won the race, and, conspiracy theories be damned, Mark Martin came in second? Yeah, somehow a lot of folks in this thread missed that.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 07:15 PM on February 19, 2007
Like I said to the guy next to me before I left the 500 party, well before halfway, let alone the finish, is the paint dry yet? So you went to a party that was based around the Daytona 500, and then left before it was done, all the while complaining how boring it was? Let's count how many different ways could you be making a mistake: 1) Going to a Daytona 500 party when you don't like NASCAR. Why would you waste your time going if you don't like the sport? 2) Leaving a sporting event before it is completed (or even halfway done). Finishes are almost always more exciting than beginnings in sporting events. 3) Complaining to people who are staying that you think they are wasting their time. Nothing makes friends quicker than insulting the people around you. 4) Leaving before the "interesting" stuff happened. You missed a wild finish that everyone else enjoyed. 5) You went to a sporting event party and actually cared too much about what was on the TV instead of socializing with the people around you. Well done!
posted by grum@work at 07:21 PM on February 19, 2007
Well said grumm. If he feels that way about NASCAR he should stay home and do something else. It would be like me going to a Tupperware party. That's the one thing didn't understand when I was in the SCCA, there were alot of people who would only watch one form of racing and have nothing good to say about any other form. I myself will watch anything but monster trucks and F1.
posted by CB900 at 11:10 PM on February 19, 2007
Let’s At Least concede 6 hours is a big chunk of your Sunday to give to a race. I do not even do that for the Indy 500. I can watch a formula 1 race start to finish in 90 minutes, and if there are any early cautions ETC they shove in their commercial breaks so they can bring you the last 20 minutes or so of the race commercial free. Does NASCAR do that, I told my wife a crash was starting as they cut to commercial Sunday, did they come back, as is their policy? Nope. 5 minutes later you say only the results of the crash.
posted by vipers-pit at 09:04 AM on February 20, 2007
The race was 4 hrs. Pre and post shows might have made it seem a lot longer.
posted by louisville_slugger at 09:32 AM on February 20, 2007
Well, it is a 'racing league' not a rules league. Once the green flag drops its up to the drivers to settle it on the track so I'm 100% behind NASCAR putting using judgement and the legacy of their sport to call the finish at Daytona. I was cheering for Mark but he was true to his own legacy too. When Harvick pinched him down off the last turn he gave him room and let him keep his momentum, the true gentleman racer. Tony Stewart, et. al, and even Harvick himself would not have done that and we might have seen a finish like Kurt Bush and Ricky Craven at Darlington a few years back. As DW once said, wreck or win...not Mark Martin. He got the Mr. Congeniality trophy and kept his car...Harvick won the 500...with an emphasis on won!
posted by racing-eagle at 10:22 AM on February 20, 2007
I am glad that NASCAR let them "race" to the checkered flag... I know the caution would have been thrown if it was jimmie johnson leading.. mark made a Rookie move wnen trying to block kurt busch on the bottom he forgot about the cars in the high groove who where just as fast and coming like freight trains the bobble he made in the middle was just enought to lose momentum. I will be going to the AutoClub 500 this weekend , hopefully it will be more of a race i was really dissapointed with this years 500.........On another note, at the end of the race i expected mark martin to talk about the race and the finish not "when the caution flag came out we were in the lead" no mark when the caution flag came out you were gettin your assed passed at the finish line and losin 1.5 MILLION DOLLARS..........
posted by jaclp at 03:51 PM on February 20, 2007
Harvick's move was straight out of the Dale Earnhardt Sr. handbook. Mark Mrtin deserved the win, not Harvick.