November 29, 2006

Was it Michael Vick? Or was it.... DA DA DAAAAA - Ron Mexico? In all seriousness, that demonstrates a total lack of class and restraint. It's sad that fans express themselves in such inappropriate ways, but it's up to Vick to be the bigger man.

posted by rocketman at 12:46 PM on November 29, 2006

I find it disappointing you can no longer order a personalized Falcons #7 jersey with "MEXICO" on the back through NFL.com.

posted by yerfatma at 01:31 PM on November 29, 2006

well to give Vick some credit, at least he didn't throw out the race card and instead left it as "some fans were saying some obscene things that I can't repeat". As soon as I heard about this I figured the first thing he would say was "Someone in the stands was pulling a Kramer on me" since that seems to be the easy cop out for every other athlete in similar situations....it gets the white reporters to go "oh, ok...um, err...in other news we have Bill Parcells..."

posted by bdaddy at 02:35 PM on November 29, 2006

What Vick did was not the most professional thing to do by any means. His receivers didn't give him much help either. But thats not the fans fault that pay good money to go see their teams play, whether its on the road or at home. Even though he got caught up in the heat of the moment,and in fact apologized for his finger flipping and verbal tirade, as a professional athlete,one must control their emotions. I'm not saying what the fans did was ok to do.But probably 75% of them were under the influence and don't know any better to begin with. You've got kids that look up to and idolize such star players as Vick. What does that show a kid that plays any organized sport, whether it be football, baseball, etc. Not only Vicks tirade, but all the other things that have been happening on the sidelines in the past few weeks. The argueing among teammates, and Tom Coughlins ass chewing of one of his players was totally uncalled for. Embarrassing a player like that on national TV was absolutely unnecessary. Things like that should be done in the locker room at half time ,or after the game. Not in front of a national television audience. Vick payed his fine and made a public apology.Such is life in pro sports. As for Coughlin,I just think he's a total asshole and never liked him even when he was coaching here at Boston College.

posted by Ghastly1 at 03:03 PM on November 29, 2006

And that is the action that is going to throw the monkey-wrench in this kid's development of moral character. Oh, no, it's Vick, the idol, whose lapse is going to represent a major and crippling letdown for this kid. Not the behavior of people of the kid's parents and their peers...it's all Michael Vick. I agree with you lbb to a large degree. It is mainly up to the parents to display integrity and encourgae maturity in their kids. Great point. That being the case, i have to say that we still can't overestimate the impact a child or adolescents heroes have on them. Few things hurt worse than seeing someone you thought was the man being a jerk. This can jade a kid. However, if a kid is raised by solid parents, this isn't going to be a crushing blow to his growth. I guess i am saying it isn't either/or. It's a both/and. Both sides need to show youth today how to act like an adult. I would still say that most of this comes from the parents. To me it's not a complete copout to call vick out on this. what do you think?

posted by brainofdtrain at 04:07 PM on November 29, 2006

SummersEve said it best! As fans, we must all learn that that these professional athletes are not "public property" just as they are not media property. Whenever they hit the stage or the arena, we forget to notice that these are human beings out there and believe that we have paid for the right to treat them as we see fit. Michael Vick expressed himself, then apologized. Those of us who didn't deserve the flip/lip accept his apology (he never intended it for us anyway) and the rest need to cool it, and let's play football.

posted by Bud Lang at 05:16 PM on November 29, 2006

Well, for the next 30-40 seconds 50,000 people at Edison field watched Hulk Hogan beat the living shit out of a drunk frat boy. Dude, I would pay good money to have that go up on YouTube. As for Vick, he's not my favourite guy in the world, but yeah, let's be realistic. I can be a smidge of a hothead, and while I hope I wouldn't flip off the crowd in a situation like that, I've also yelled "Fuck!" at the top of my lungs after booting a grounder at third in a slo-pitch softball game.

posted by wfrazerjr at 06:50 PM on November 29, 2006

Ghastly, you keep repeating all these pieces of conventional "wisdom" about the youths and how their characters get formed or damaged by the behavior of sports superstars...and I'm sorry to harsh on you because I know that these gems don't originate with you, but it sounds like a bunch of hooey. What else can you call it when someone asserts that a kid is going to be more influenced by a distant idol than by the people they know? What else can you say when someone claims that kids "don't give a damn about the drunks yelling obsenities[sic]"? It makes no sense to me that you would claim that a kid is going to be unaffected by goon behavior all around him/her, and then is suddenly going to be knocked all off kilter when Michael Vick flips the bird. Let's get real, okay?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 07:45 PM on November 29, 2006

It's funny. Actors, musicians and artist types lead Jerry Springer Show lives, but an athlete flips a bird and people talk about being good role models. I bet there are probably a few kids out there who will start flipping the bird because of Vick, sure, but I'd bet they were well on their way to flipping the bird anyway. And at least he apologized (does anyone else remember Thurman Thomas' response when some kid in the stands asked him why he had a bad game?)

posted by forrestv at 08:11 PM on November 29, 2006

I would like to see this topic added to the "banned topics" list. Heh, well, I made the FPP, so that one's on me. The logic behind the "banned topics", as I understand it, is just an extension of the usual SpoFi posting guidelines: if it ain't news, and it doesn't add something, and -- maybe most important -- nothing new will get added to the discussion, it's not FPP-worthy. This one may have been marginal, although I think we did take it in a slightly different direction than the usual "athlete misbehavior" discussion.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:01 PM on November 29, 2006

You all know something? Sorry to all for posting my comments on this subject. I have nothing against Mike Vick or anyone on this sight. As far as I'm concerned, pro athletes can do anything they want to do. It's not affecting me in any which way, shape or form. If he wants to flip people off,let him. I'm not paying his fine. I'll continue to post My views on other subjects as they come up. I'm not taking anything personal here. Just enough of Mr. Vick in which I am a fan of.

posted by Ghastly1 at 10:38 PM on November 29, 2006

What SummersEve said. Rah!

posted by lil_brown_bat at 06:48 AM on November 30, 2006

Forget being a role model, how about being professional. How many of you could go to work and flip off your customers and not get fired? I guess if my co-workers are not performing the way I want them to I should just go flip off the customers who may think it's my fault that the company is not meeting their expectations. OR....... As a leader I could take the heat that I have earned by not leading well enough to meet the expectations of my customers. While I don't see pro athletes as role models, I don't see excusing poor behavior by a pro athlete and blaming fans for his actions.

posted by Familyman at 07:16 AM on November 30, 2006

How many of you could go to work and flip off your customers and not get fired? I don't know, but how many of you go to work in front of 50,000 screaming people who get to flip you off? I'm not saying it's right, I'm just saying that it's pretty ridiculous to compare your job to pro-sports jobs sometimes. It's a little different.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:23 AM on November 30, 2006

How many of you can tackle one of your co-workers and not get fired?

posted by SummersEve at 09:32 AM on November 30, 2006

I used to go to Cowboys-Eagles games in Dallas. Based on the number of fights, obscenities and other out-of-control behavior that occurs, I'd be irresponsible to bring my young sons into that environment. So even before Vick flipped the birds, it's on parents if kids were exposed to it. However ... And then Michael Vick comes along, receives a remark that can't be repeated on television -- one that's got to be a real doozy, because he's heard plenty already today, and finally he reacts. He flips a double-bird in the general direction of the heckler. I'm throwing a flag for excessive deference to celebrity. Fifteen yard penalty and loss of down. For all we know, Vick was no less an idiot than the heckling fans in the stands. Portraying him as a person who finally reacted, as if you know he's fully justified after whatever he heard, is as much an appeal to emotionalism as the "athletes are our role models" or "pampered millionaire don't know how good he got it" stuff. Whether you want to call the guy a role model or not, he's a hero to a lot of sons and their dads. He's also paid millions to endorse products. Both ought to suggest at least some obligation not to be an asshat. The Dad asks the guy to apologize, but instead gets the bird. Well, for the next 30-40 seconds 50,000 people at Edison field watched Hulk Hogan beat the living shit out of a drunk frat boy. What has the potential to be more traumatizing to a 4-to-6 year old kid -- spilled beer and an upraised middle finger or seeing your dad beat the crap out of somebody?

posted by rcade at 10:55 AM on November 30, 2006

What has the potential to be more traumatizing to a 4-to-6 year old kid -- spilled beer and an upraised middle finger or seeing your dad beat the crap out of somebody? I'll take my chances with the ass-whoopin. Then you explain to your kid that there is always someone bigger and stronger, so don't act stupid unless you're willing to get your ass handed to you.

posted by yay-yo at 11:50 AM on November 30, 2006

Being a parent, nothing here has changed my mind. My job is to tell my kids that Vick's behavior is WRONG. It's not how decent people act, especially in public. If someone spilled beer on anyone in my family and didn't do anything to make amends for it like at least an apology, then they would have to face the consequences. You DON'T spill beer on a kid and then flip off the dad. That's asking for it. I've taught my kids not to fight, but I've also taught them not to be doormats.

posted by THX-1138 at 12:08 PM on November 30, 2006

The line of commentary had led us down this path of discussion. I AM a parent, and a damned good one, if I say so myself, so this is something I can talk about as I know what I'm talking about. If I've said something debatable, debate it. I love South Park. I don't let my kids watch either show.

posted by THX-1138 at 01:26 PM on November 30, 2006

As a parent, I have only one thing to say. Those Idjit brothers better stay away from my daughter.

posted by tselson at 02:19 PM on November 30, 2006

THX: I was being flippant, and my comment was not directed at you personally at all. You're obviously passionate about this issue. If my dry (and quite marginal, to be sure) wit offended you at all, I apologize. I in no way meant to challenge your abilities as a parent. Professional athletics have a long history of introducing to the public individuals with poor judgment and no common sense. That we continue to be astounded by this is... well, astounding. That we continue to hold professional athletes, in general, to a HIGHER-than-average standard in these areas is bizarre. To extend this hope of high character to include the average drunken fan at a football game is like wondering why they don't have telekinetic powers.

posted by BullpenPro at 06:15 PM on November 30, 2006

Bullpenpro: No offense taken. I just thought that you had spilled beer on my kid and now I was going to have to...."Roll out them 24 inch pythons brother, and take some vitamins and have the Hulkamaniacs run wild over YOU!" Sometimes we parents get all "parenty" about things and our own marginal senses of humor become flat as day old soda. Plus, I'm kind of a dick, anyways. What were we talking about?

posted by THX-1138 at 06:36 PM on November 30, 2006

O yeah, right. I like it when the golfer guys let the guy closest to the pin go out of turn and just knock it in. That seems like a nice gesture. Or the Florida Gator chomp. Is that a gesture? Time of death:5:14 PST

posted by THX-1138 at 07:15 PM on November 30, 2006

If athletes aren't role models, then it logically follows that actors, musicians, writers and whatever Paris Hilton is aren't role models either. What does that leave us with -- parents and politicians?

posted by rcade at 07:13 AM on December 01, 2006

What does that leave us with -- parents and politicians? Role models. Seems like most of the value of a "role model" is in learning how to determine if someone is worth looking up to, regardless of their occupation.

posted by yerfatma at 09:11 AM on December 01, 2006

bdaddy, would they also be bragging about how they got to spend every weekend for the next five years visiting their daddy in prison? I swear, every time I read this "what I'd do" chest-thumping, it just makes me shake my head. I hope for your sakes that chest-thumping is all it is. Here's the reality: in a law-abiding society, if you get into a fight with someone, you should assume that two things will happen: 1)At least one party will go to the hospital. 2)You will go to jail. You will go to jail, understand? You can't just throw down and walk away high-fiving your buddies and your oh-so-proud kid. Please disabuse yourself of this notion, or one day the fantasy may meet the reality, and you'll be paying for it for a long time.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:40 AM on December 01, 2006

I had many athletes as heros in my childhood, but growing up in the '70s as a Yankee fan my dad pointed out me that just because somebody is the biggest star on your favorite team doesn't mean he isn't a first rate jerk and a poor example to follow on many, many levels. Starting off with good ones off the bat makes a big difference. I didn't exactly have athletes as heroes when I was growing up -- there were many that I admired for their athletic achievements, but I knew that I didn't know about them as people, if that makes any sense. My feeling about these "sports idols" was something like, "I'd like to race like that one day," or "I'd like to win a gold medal like that one day," not, "I want to be like this person." I wonder if that's a girl thing?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 12:30 PM on December 01, 2006

I wonder if that's a girl thing? No, I don't think so. And I don't want to overstate the influence they had on me. I did REALLY want to be a professional baseball player from very early on, so I was shopping for what kind of ballplayer I wanted to be on the field and in the clubhouse. With a few exceptions, like Hank Aaron, it stopped at the ballpark -- if I had found out that Bobby Murcer kicked his dog, I don't think I would have ever added "dog kicker" to my skills development list. I do really believe, though, that choosing as a child what kind of teammate you want to be when you grow up does influence more general attitudes towards working -- and living -- with others as you develop. And it's not necessarily just a good/bad thing. Who do you admire more from the '70s -- Pete Rose, Rod Carew, Mike Schmidt or Nolan Ryan? They all conducted themselves in very different ways and portrayed very different personas. All of them were admired and had Hall of Fame quality careers. Pete Rose, I think, is a great example of the problem of "athletes as heroes" being taken to the nth degree. Here is a guy that was the epitome of hustle, who symbolized accomplishment from sheer effort and determination, without the great natural skills. I think it took someone of Pete Rose's caliber, someone who was so broadly held up as the model ballplayer, to fail as he did for people to actually say gambling on baseball isn't that big a deal. Rose and OJ probably represent the two steepest falls for sports heroes -- in my lifetime, anyway* -- and the people who saw them as such seem to be divided, in my opinion, between deeply rooted anger and denial. The depth of those wounds, from having the rug pulled out by somebody we had spent a career trusting as a role model, fall in direct proportion to the degree that we feel the need for, and clutch at, heroes. *If Lance Armstrong ever officially falls from grace, he would almost certainly make this list as well.

posted by BullpenPro at 01:44 PM on December 01, 2006

Perhaps I'm not as eloquent as some folks on this site, and perhaps I have a point of view that is skewed either by: a) My own upbringing b)personal experience c)my gender d)all of the above I also never quite stated that if I were in the situation that yay-yo described that I would pull out a club and beat the offender to within an inch of his life. But I do stand by what I said. I respectfully request that if there is an opposing viewpoint, please to be letting me in on an alternative solution. Keep in mind that diplomacy would, of course, always be the first choice. But if that doesn't work, my kids have to know that they shouldn't let themselves be abused by jerks. And jerks should know that they won't get away with it. Please believe me. I am not a neanderthal. I don't go looking for trouble. And I have defended my wife and children from aggressors without having the law come down against me. That's because I was in the right.

posted by THX-1138 at 02:44 PM on December 01, 2006

No, no l_b_b. I agree. I was fending off a REAL beligerent drunk. Not exactly knight in shining armor stuff. And I reiterate: diplomacy, diplomacy, diplomacy. Get an usher. Rally support from the people around you. Save for that, what other approach would be advised? What if it doesn't work?

posted by THX-1138 at 04:08 PM on December 01, 2006

Was there this much outrage when blackjack flipped off Yankee stadium? I don't remember it being a huge deal. Ghastly, your couplet dosen't rhyme. Worst. Sonnett. Ever.

posted by HATER 187 at 10:49 PM on December 01, 2006