October 31, 2005

He resigned. I hate Larry Lucchino. He needs to go.

posted by jerseygirl at 04:58 PM on October 31, 2005

Trolls, please fuck off in advance.

posted by yerfatma at 05:09 PM on October 31, 2005

Wow, who would've guessed a week ago that both DePodesta and Epstein would be without jobs?

posted by cl at 05:20 PM on October 31, 2005

I bet this is about the whole Manny thing- too many headaches, not to mention their rotation isnt getting any younger.... too many headaches, and probally not enought money. (Not to mention a crappy team)- jk guys. But seriously, WAY too many headaches this offseason.

posted by redsoxrgay at 05:52 PM on October 31, 2005

This isn't about Manny. He wasn't given autonomy, and that's what he needed as a GM. Theo wouldn't go to NYY. Working for Steinbrenner has to be up there with working for/alongside LL.

posted by jerseygirl at 06:03 PM on October 31, 2005

From the Silverman article (who btw, had the story this morning about the deal not being done opposite the Globe): Epstein had come close to agreeing to a deal Saturday evening but had not officially conveyed acceptance of it. On Sunday, he began having serious misgivings about staying on. A leading contributing factor, according to sources close to the situation, was a column in Sunday’s Boston Globe in which too much inside information about the relationship between Epstein and his mentor, team president and CEO Larry Lucchino, was revealed -- in a manner slanted too much in Lucchino’s favor. Epstein, according to these sources, had several reasons to believe Lucchino was a primary source behind the column and came to the realization that if this information were leaked hours before Epstein was going to agree to a new long-term deal, it signaled excessive bad faith between him and Lucchino. Surprise, surprise. The curly haired boyfriend at the center of this all? Who'da thunk it. If there's one thing that's becoming abundantly clear, it's that the Red Sox need a better PR person. Their business is always in the news, every trade, every late night, every idea, almost always citing a "Red Sox source" or a "source close to the situation". Can we just assume that's Larry Lucchino from now on?

posted by YukonGold at 06:55 PM on October 31, 2005

Clearly you're well-informed. Sure he added the pieces and made a bold trade to get the Sox through the Series. Sure he took an awful farm system and turned it into a valuable feeder system in 3 years. Just pure luck. Edna St. Vincent Millay's estate called. They said no using her works without knowing what you're talking about.

posted by yerfatma at 07:37 PM on October 31, 2005

Why are we pinning this on Lucchino? Why must Red Sox management always be the bad guy in these situations? I love Theo, and I understand that he wants to "shop for the groceries," as it were. But he's being selfish here, no sympathy from me. You want to GM (or coach) the Red Sox, you're going to put up with input from ownership. Particularly this ownership, who knows more than a little bit about baseball. And then you're going to go home, roll around in your 1.5 million a year, and laugh and laugh at how you're 30 years old and living the dream. If Theo's serious about taking a year off, I'd say he's just burnt. And yerfatma, I don't see how ownership has spent its goodwill. Hell, Lucchino appears to have been the one who kept Manny around, much to the fans' delight and Theo's chagrin. What makes you say that?

posted by oscillator72 at 08:22 PM on October 31, 2005

Selfish nothing. In his short tenure, he's proven himself worthy of some trust and decision making. It's becoming evermore apparent that Lucchino's a very controling, very manipulative man.

posted by jerseygirl at 08:57 PM on October 31, 2005

Not a good couple months for the "sabermetric" crowd. Billy-boy's team in Oakland misses the playoffs for the second straight year. "Small ball" team wins the World Series. DePo gets canned in L.A. Kid Theo jumps ship from Boston. I can hear the "old guard" cackling right now.

posted by grum@work at 09:53 PM on October 31, 2005

I was a season ticket holder in San Diego when Tom Werner & Crew invaded from LA. They traded 4 allstars in their first two years and all the fans felt they made no honest attempt to win. To determine Werner's credibility, one only needs to remember that Werner made his cash producing the Roseanne TV show. Who can forget his effort at creating synergy - having his star Rosie sing the national anthem. The Red Sox woes from Werner's ineptitude are just surfacing now.

posted by sandman at 01:44 AM on November 01, 2005

red sox have a farm system? a "valuable" feeder system. surely you jest! Dustin Pedroia. Hanley Ramirez. John Papelbon. Anibal Sanchez. Manny Delcarmen. Abe Alvarez. Jon Lester. Et cetera.

posted by yerfatma at 06:15 AM on November 01, 2005

Why are we pinning this on Lucchino? Larry Lucchino is slowly but surely burning every bridge he comes to in the organization. Let's not forget his comments about Nomar as the door was closing after the trade, or his handling of the Arod deal, or the Pedro negotiations. At least the Red Sox have a capable assistant GM, who helped Theo shape the club along the way, ready to take over. What? Lucchino let him sign with Arizona before Theo's contract was settled!?!? He was gone before the World Series ended!?!?!

posted by YukonGold at 07:00 AM on November 01, 2005

In short, thanks to Lucchino, we're fucked. Maybe this was a necessary exposure to everyone mainstream of the practices of Lucchino, and CHB, to an extent.

posted by jerseygirl at 07:21 AM on November 01, 2005

It's one thing when Nomar and Pedro find your negotiating tactics distasteful. It's another when an immensely capable person willingly abandons his dream job because you've made it into a such a hideous nightmare. It strikes me as remarkably telling that Brian Cashman decided he can put up with George Steinbrenner's bullying for three more years, yet Theo apparently couldn't take another millisecond with the man who was once his mentor.

posted by yerfatma at 08:08 AM on November 01, 2005

what happened did gentle george take over the red soxs sounds like his pettit ploy tosave money for the bunch of cry babies that your are LUCHINO & CO you sure are ASSHOLES

posted by FrankySP at 09:36 AM on November 01, 2005

PS; and that is coming from a yankee fan!!!!!!! That's nice, but it was completely incoherent. Try punctuation next time; that way people might have some idea of what you're trying to say.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:44 AM on November 01, 2005

I too am unclear on how that would add gravitas to the original statement.

posted by yerfatma at 10:43 AM on November 01, 2005

Thanks, Yukon... although now I have a mental picture of you as the "I speak jive" stewardess from "Airplane!"

posted by dusted at 11:01 AM on November 01, 2005

There are two of three really good famrs systems in the AL- The Red Sox and Yankees are not on the list. For Starters you have the Athletics and the Twins near the top of the list when is comes to great farm systems. Believe it or not Tampa Bay has a better system than the Red Sox...

posted by daddisamm at 11:13 AM on November 01, 2005

Here is what we know about Theo: 1 - he has strong internal guidance and guts. look at what he did with Nomar. given this we should understand that he has a very practical view of life and will do what he thinks is right 2 - during the times of ARod and Nomar - when there was a lot of internal noise from the Sox - Theo was a level head. he did not bask either player, their agents, etc. while there was a lot of noise coming from the sox PR system (and some from Larry L directly) - Theo kept an even head and during the Nomar situation suggested 'everyone should turn the page' 3 - My own humble opinion - - yes Larry L was his mentor and brought him along, yes Dr. Charles was part of that as well - but, in the end, a person like theo will not sign up to be part of something he disagrees with. Maybe it is all talk - but if you look at the Sox standard operating procedure - there is a lot of public leaking of bad info when negotiations breaks down. I do believe that theo is not up for this, wants a tighter ship and Larry L simply is too visible. What happened on sun/mon is typical of what I think he didn't like - leaked info in the press. I believe we are back to the dan duquette days. Theo brought talent - he related to players - he was approachable and liked - people came to boston BECAUSE of him - I think with Larry L - you will find that people WON'T COME because of him. Look at how the players responded. Like a players manager - theo was a players GM - he knew how to deal with them and treat them properly and with respect. Dan Duquette - Larry L --- twin sons of different mothers when it comes to this......aliention of the talent pool - here we come!!!!

posted by SoxInMethuen at 11:23 AM on November 01, 2005

Don't forget that the Globe is owned by the New York Times, rcade.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 11:48 AM on November 01, 2005

Farm systems for the top payroll teams such as the Yankees and Red Sox are not even an issue. If either team has one serious, serious impact player per year from their farm teams, that's a lot. The big money these teams make mean "Win Now," and developing a lot of young players isn't their way. It's all about signing experienced players with big league credentials each off-season (even though some of these signings, obviously, don't work out. People are always trying to tell me the Yankees have no future because their farm system is so weak. So what? Where's the big news flash with that? Same with the Sox. The guys yerfatma mentions contributed, some more than others, but the Sox will be right in the thick of trying to sign or pick up any (supposed) big names that are available this off season. As for Epstein, it's too bad, actually, because he really seems to love the game and the Sox. But pressure only gets worse after a team wins a championship, then doens't repeat. Some can handle it (Cashman), some run away quickly.

posted by dyams at 12:00 PM on November 01, 2005

I agree with that, yerfatma. It's not a practice I like, but one that continues. Often, judging minor league "talent" is very, very subjective. A few players here or there that start to blossom throughout any minor league system may pay huge dividends, but that still won't equate to a overall "strong" farm system. Also, the scouting teams do of players from A, AA and, to some extent, AAA ball can bring some minor league talent to teams such as the Yankees who initially seem to only be add-ons in certain bigger deals. Often these throw-ins end up being critical to the team's success (A. Small), even though they never really figured in the team's farm system "strength."

posted by dyams at 12:41 PM on November 01, 2005

ooops, I meant Vazquez in 2003, not 1993.

posted by drevl at 02:29 PM on November 01, 2005

How do we know that it's dried up? Their position players were all set last year, so no minor leaguers were called up (with the Cano exception, of course). Their starting pitching was devistated, so they went to their system and called up Wang and Small. This was good enough to win their division, albeit by a small margin. I don't know that their farm is dried up, and neither do you.

posted by drevl at 03:15 PM on November 01, 2005

Small and Chacon are actaully good examples of why the Yankees have a poor minor league system - as they had to snag these two journeymen because they had nothing beyond Wang in the minors. It's an indictment of their current woes, not an example of their current strength.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 03:49 PM on November 01, 2005

Oh yeah, and Shawn Chacon, a journeyman? The guy's 27!! Up until coming to the Yankees he'd been at that pitcher's graveyard known as Coors Field. I see him more as a very good, shrewd pickup, and someone who will pay dividends, hopefully, for the next few year.

posted by dyams at 04:01 PM on November 01, 2005

Who?

posted by wfrazerjr at 04:21 PM on November 01, 2005

I dunno ... the article says: Theo Epstein stunned the Red Sox and the baseball world this afternoon by walking away from his job as general manager. Which sounds like he resigned. But then in the next paragraph: Just hours before his deal was set to expire at midnight, Epstein told his bosses and associates at the Red Sox’ Yawkey Way offices that he had decided not to accept a three-year deal worth $1.5 million a year, an extension for the contract he signed on Nov. 25, 2002. I mean, are you really resigning when you have hours left on your old contract? I suppose even if a deal wasn't done, you're still the GM until one or the other of you says it's over.

posted by wfrazerjr at 05:31 PM on November 01, 2005

I don't see any reason why this keeps being connected to the Times/Globe ownership of the Sox. It's hardly a new phenomenom for a reporter to report as a shill for an ownership group. When M. Donald Grant spoke, it often came out of Dick Young's column in New York. The late Will McDonough of the Globe served as Patriots owner Bob Kraft's bullhorn. I seriously doubt that any of this would have happened differently if the Times/Globe was not a member of the ownership group. And, while I generally don't like Shaughnessy, I thought his article was fair; it was not one-sided.

posted by spira at 09:11 PM on November 01, 2005

I thought his article was fair; it was not one-sided. Go back and reread the part about their amatuer baseball careers. It's definitely not fair, the entire article is about elevating the image and importance of Larry Lucchino. The main point is that Lucchino is a "baseball man", despite the fact that he's a promoter and real estate developer and uses his amatuer athletic career as a way to put down Theo.

posted by YukonGold at 05:36 AM on November 02, 2005

Theo is 31 years old and did not play baseball past high school...Lucchino was a good high school baseball player and made it to the NCAA Final Four with Princeton's basketball team His argument is that Theo isn't a baseball man because he only played through high school, whereas Larry played through high school? Works for me.

posted by yerfatma at 09:19 AM on November 02, 2005

The Shaughnessy issue has only to with him getting the information in this article directly from Lucchino and then writing a column clearly biased in his direction. The larger Globe issue is that this article in combination with the Edes/Snow article Monday morning shows that Lucchino was using the Globe exclusively for his own gains. But you are right, if Shaughnessy worked for the Boston metro, he'd still be a dick.

posted by YukonGold at 10:40 AM on November 02, 2005

This whole thing is complete insanity. If you are planning a trip to Boston, I'd give it about 6 months before you visit, it's quite possible this is contagious.

posted by YukonGold at 01:34 PM on November 02, 2005

Are the Red Sox becoming the AL version of the Cubs? A storied franchise owned by a media group that has no incentive to produce a winner, since they'll make shit-tons of cash off the fiercely loyal fanbase no matter what?

posted by rocketman at 03:44 PM on November 02, 2005

Yerfatma, I don't read simmons enough to know of his sour grapes. I'm certainly not putting much faith in his opinion. I know he's 'light' reading. I just agree with the basic premise that three years isn't long enough to say the sky is falling now that he's gone. For me, the big question is was this a one time thing or will no one be able to work with Lucchino. Was this a result of a teacher and student reaching a natural separation or is it something bigger? If it's the former, then I'm not that concerned. Don't get me wrong, I would have loved to have theo around for the next 50 years. But there are others as capable, and theo's record is mighty short. The article also seems to pick and choose. Getting rid of nomar and cabrera, brilliant. Letting cabrera go and getting renteria, not so good. (that could change I know). Are the Red Sox becoming the AL version of the Cubs? A storied franchise [making] shit-tons of cash off the fiercely loyal fanbase no matter what? Wasn't that long ago fenway was rather empty.

posted by justgary at 07:13 PM on November 02, 2005