August 16, 2005

"I'm a firm believer in second chances..." : Todd Bertuzzi is ready to move on.

posted by lil_brown_bat to hockey at 06:19 AM - 131 comments

Hopefully, so will NHL teams when Steve Moore is declared fit to play. Until then, Todd, STFU.

posted by wfrazerjr at 07:23 AM on August 16

The way Bertuzzi phrases his explanation is really obnoxious: "Unfortunately I was under the microscope and on TV when my mistake happened ..." A mistake didn't happen to you, you callous, self-centered lowlife. You happened to Steve Moore. Grow up and take responsibility for your own actions.

posted by rcade at 07:38 AM on August 16

His handlers are morons. Or maybe he is. Or probably both - but with the civil suit still on, I think that you're liable to hear pap like this as a protective measure. Todd shouldn't/can't admit to anything until he finds out how much Steve's kids' school costs.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:05 AM on August 16

And what the fuck is up with Lacroix sigining Brad May? That is the most boneheaded of signings and seems to have been lost in the shuffle.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:06 AM on August 16

Second change? How about (i dont know) 20th change. I have seen this guy run guys heads into the glass more times than i care to count. He is out there to hurt players. Al McInnis(sp) for the Blues, not a tough guy, got his head smashed into the glass and missed games. Why didn't Todd try this against Tony Twist? Because he is a chicken sh*t bully that can only pick on small guys.

posted by hullie16 at 10:22 AM on August 16

You know at some point, enough is enough and we need to let Bertuzzi get on with his life. What he did was terrible are we right to hold it against him forever?

posted by daddisamm at 10:24 AM on August 16

20th chance? I guess I missed those other 19 suspensions. Players can be rough but there is much that is permitted within the context of the game (and stuff the refs do miss, admittedly) and I won't start poring over his unpunished indiscretions if this is a systematic issue as much as a Bertuzzi issue. He's kind of getting scapegoated, and conveniently since that lowlight was the most exposure the NHL has had in years and years. I'm not a fan, in any way, of what he did but this whole incident was rather unfortunate. Thuggish, but unlucky given that lots of sucker punches have been thrown in the past and very few careers impacted the way Moore's has.

posted by gspm at 10:39 AM on August 16

The problem, daddisamm, is that his victim can't get on with his life to the same degree -- not now, maybe not ever. Based on your postings here, I'm guessing that if you had been responsible for an accident in which someone was permanently disabled, you wouldn't be in such a hurry to shuck your responsibility and get on with your life. It's not about being vindictive...but I guess I feel that if you disable someone, somehow you ought to take part in that life sentence of disability, whatever that takes.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 10:42 AM on August 16

I fail to see how Bertuzzi is getting scapegoated. Yes, there has been violence in hockey in the past, but it was never so highly visible or so widely villified as the Moore attack. And yet, the attacker serves a mere 13 games and is free to do as he wishes? And again, just because this sort of action wasn;t sufficiently punished in the past doesn't mean in shouldn't be now. The man simply shouldn't be allowed back on the ice. Look at the quote that rcade cites above and tell me Bertuzzi has learned anything from this. And read this column by the Toronto Star's Damian Cox about the distasteful rush by Hockey Canada to get Bertuzzi on the team. I love the NHL, but hockey gets more and more pathetic each day.

posted by wfrazerjr at 10:54 AM on August 16

I agree with what you are saying llb, he should be held responsible in some form for his disability. More than likely he will be once the civil is settled. I guess I am not sure as to how much is enough. Do we ever get to the point when we talk about Bertuzzi and not talk about the bad thing he did?? I dont know the answer to that one...

posted by daddisamm at 11:43 AM on August 16

rcade's quote includes the words "my mistake"...I fail to see how he is shucking responsibility. A mistake is an action/decision made by an individual, to err. I refuse to get dragged into this demonizing of Bertuzzi. I feel the context of the incident is constantly overlooked. I'd feel more 'burn 'em alive' if there was no surrounding 'escalating-war' context, and he just lost it, out of the blue. I think matching the injury to the punishment is an idealist's fantasy; something that provides 'justice' to the wronged, but is impractical and could quite possibly be unjust to the 'offender' if eye for an eye became the rule. And the Brad May signing speaks to the Avs organization, as well as the Canucks' organization involvement in all of this. Lacroix is planning for the coming battle. I'd say it also speaks to Lacroix's opinion of Moore, but that would be unfair, though my opinion of him lessens with each quote I read attributable to him.

posted by garfield at 11:48 AM on August 16

I don't think the 13 game suspension, on the face of it, was sufficient. Of course losing Bertuzzi probably meant that the Canucks suffered a pretty good punishment in losing the opening round playoff series to the Flames (I'd have to think that having Bertuzzi would have changed the outcome of the series given that the Flames ending up winning it in OT in game 7 showing how close it was). He should still miss more playing time and I don't think there would have been as much displeasure to see him sit for another 20 or 30 games this year. He's responsible for his actions of course and i don't mean to suggest that any scapegoating overlooks this. But Bertuzzi is now shorthand for hockey violence, so, in a sense, the act is now bigger than the person. Does the name Gary Suter have the same currency of thuggery to most people? I mean it is well known that he nearly took of Paul Kariya's head with a cross check in 1998 and that he knocked Gretzky out of the 1991 Canada Cup with a check from behind. But his career and name was not impacted to the extent that Bertuzzi has been forever tainted. But he's sure not helping himself with comments like what rcade quoted (provided removing it from the context of the interview or press conference he gave doesn't make it sound worse than it was). Then again, for some people there is nothing he can say or do to assuage their anger and that is their perogative as fans.

posted by gspm at 11:52 AM on August 16

The problem I have with Bertuzzi's string of apologies is that he said he didn't mean to hurt Moore. According to the doctors that examined Moore, the broken neck he received was not from Bertuzzi smashing his face into the ice, but from the initial punch. The one act that is entirely Bertuzzi's fault (not the falling down, or the pile-on, but just the punch) is the one that did the most damage. Does the name Gary Suter have the same currency of thuggery to most people? I mean it is well known that he nearly took of Paul Kariya's head with a cross check in 1998 and that he knocked Gretzky out of the 1991 Canada Cup with a check from behind. I've always associated Suter with those two incidents, but at least they were somewhat (in a way) related to the game of hockey and were in the heat of the action. Bertuzzi's action was sucker-punching a player that wanted nothing to do with him and was not involved in the play in any way. The only way he could have made it worse would have been to chase him off the ice at the end of the game.

posted by grum@work at 12:13 PM on August 16

13 games is inaccurate. He couldn't play this past season either, and that has nothing to do with the lock-out. IIHF wouldn't let him play in any Euro league. I'd consider that a year+ suspension.

posted by garfield at 12:26 PM on August 16

Garf, can you explain more fully the "escalating war" excuse? Because as I see the chain of events -- Moore lays out Naslund with a legal and clean hit; Vancouver flips its shit and puts out bounties; Moore fights Canuck Matt Cooke earlier in the game; then Bertuzzi chases him around the rink trying to get him to fight again before suck-punching him and breaking his neck -- the criminal involved here had plenty of time to get off the train before it crashed. But I think many people are missing the larger point here. I don't care what Todd Bertuzzi does with the rest of his life. I'm not even saying he's necessarily a bad guy. He just shouldn't ever be allowed to play in the NHL again. As for Gary Suter et al ... again, the NHL's failure to take care of idiots like that in earlier instances doesn't mean they shouldn't do the proper thing now. On preview: 13 games is completely accurate. The NHL issued the suspension. Bertuzzi missed how many NHL games? Thirteen. The fact that the IIHF had the good sense to deny him a chance to play there is not relevant. Your assessment of the lockout having nothing to do with his suspension is right on, though, and Bettman's citing it was completely ridiculous.

posted by wfrazerjr at 12:31 PM on August 16

Suter's hit on Kariya marked the first time I remember hearing people argue that a player's suspension should coincide with the length of the injury he caused. He was truly a goon and the things he did were on par with Bertuzzi. He managed to maim two of the most talented players in the NHL - neither were quite the same after their Suter-induced concussions. Anyway - does anyone lend any creedence to the fact that the IIHF respected the NHL's suspension and disallowed Bertuzzi from playing anywhere last year? Is it unfairly NHL-centric to suggest that because he was suspended from playing in Europe, those missed games don't really count? Also - grum -- do you have a link or something with those doctor's conclusions? I've been looking for such a thing for a while now, but haven't been able to find it. I'd appreciate a pointer.

posted by fabulon7 at 12:37 PM on August 16

Ooops. Should have read all that before I hit post...

posted by fabulon7 at 12:38 PM on August 16

fraze, I believe after Moore's hit on Naslund, there was Canuck anger and Av arrogance. The hit should've been penalized. (We can argue this ad nuaseum, but the facts speak for themselves: the Cancucks felt they were wronged, and they showed it.) The fact that it wasn't contributes directly to fueling the fire. Basically, if the League won't punish Moore for the hit, our team will. The ensuing weeks that featured a war of words between the teams is also relevant. The time-span is also relevant, and could contribute to the level of anger Bertuzzi felt. Everyone knows how stewing on something that distort your sense of reality. I think the point I'm trying to make, most likely unsucessfully, is that when such an extraordinary error of judgement takes place, most likely some extraordinary contributing circumstances are involved. And I agree, he had plenty of time to get off the train. No two ways about that. But he didn't. And he knows he should have. re: 13 games - You said it yourself "deny him a chance to play." In essence the suspension went beyond the NHL, which only happened to play 13 games over the duration of his punishment. Admittedly his reinstatement coinciding with the re-opening of the brand new NHL stinks of opportunism, but the fact remains he wasn't allowed to play for 17 months.

posted by garfield at 01:02 PM on August 16

I think matching the injury to the punishment is an idealist's fantasy; something that provides 'justice' to the wronged, but is impractical and could quite possibly be unjust to the 'offender' if eye for an eye became the rule. garfield, if it were an eye for an eye, I'd be suggesting that Moore be allowed to break Bertuzzi's neck. There is a difference between punishment and restitution; I'm not a huge fan of the former, and I think the latter is a very underutilized tool. You can argue all you want about whether or not Bertuzzi has been sufficiently punished; I say he has yet to do one bit of restitution.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:11 PM on August 16

Look folks - if this was Dale Hunter, or Gino Odjick or Marty McSorley then we wouldn't have this kind of debate- they'd be history - as McSorley is. But it sounds to me like a lot of you guys and gals don't really watch hockey, and thus fail to give this the adequate perspective it needs. Bertuzzi is one of the more talented and productive hockey players there is. He puts butts in the seats and goals in the net. He is an All-Star. His suspension coinsided with the lockout - this is not Bertuzzi's fault. All told, the incident has cost him likely $1 million so far in lost wages (that's $500,000+ from the games missed, about that amount that he'd be paid in Europe) and much more in future endorsements, not to mention it cost the Canucks a chance at the Cup (if you don't think Bertuzzi would have been a difference maker in a seventh-game overtime victory by the Flames then, well, you don't know hockey). After the civil trial, I am assured that it will be undoubtedly millions more. As per never playing hockey again? Get real. Would you kick out Larry Bird for breaking AC Green's face? I'm sorry that it isn't justice as you see it - but it is about assets. Bertuzzi is worth more than Steve Moore. So the league believes times up - let's get back to work. But my god - Ron Artest didn't get hit with this much vitriol - and he went into the fucking stands after the spectators. Those of you that won't be saited until Bertuzzi is in a coma, I would quote Goldmember - "Then there is no pleeeeeeasing you."

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:50 PM on August 16

It could be argued that the best thing for Moore right now is for Bertuzzi to play and be paid. More money to squeeze in the civil suit...

posted by alex_reno at 01:55 PM on August 16

Sorry - my intention is not to shit on your opinions; I was just recently rudely awoken from a pleasant nap by someone who dared to ask me to perform some 'work'. These people have no soul.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:56 PM on August 16

Let's drop the "Canucks could have won the Cup" argument, shall we? There is no way to prove this, and it can not be factored in assessing the level of the penalty on Bertuzzi. if this was Dale Hunter Now we're getting somewhere. Dale Hunter was the Bertuzzi of his time: a very talented thug. During the '93 playoffs, Hunter cross-checked Pierre Turgeon in the back, while Turgeon was celebrating a goal, no less. Turgeon missed the next series, and played diminished against the Canadiens, who went on to become surprise Cup winners. Hunter's penalty? A record (at the time) 21 games suspension. Hunter then played 6 more years in the NHL. What am I saying? That there's nothing new under the sun, I guess.

posted by qbert72 at 02:08 PM on August 16

He'll be restituting aplenty. It's pretty much a given. Moore's lawyers will see to that, and I'm sure Bertuzzi isn't opposed to the idea of compensating lost and future earnings, if realistic.

posted by garfield at 02:10 PM on August 16

llb - an eye for an eye was me being lazy. and I suspect you know what I meant - suspensions that last the length of the injury.

posted by garfield at 02:11 PM on August 16

Those of you that won't be saited until Bertuzzi is in a coma Who's that, Weedy?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:22 PM on August 16

llb - an eye for an eye was me being lazy. and I suspect you know what I meant - suspensions that last the length of the injury. I don't recall ever suggesting that I thought that was appropriate. In what way would that be restitution?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:23 PM on August 16

Bertuzzi has yet to properly take full responsibility for what he did, as evidenced by his referral to it as a "mistake". It wasn't a mistake, Todd, it was a deliberate, premeditated act. Calling it a mistake is a cop-out. The NHL should accept that Bertuzzi didn't intend to injure Moore when Bertuzzi and the Canucks publicly accept that Moore didn't intend to injure Naslund, and admit that the planned retaliation was wrong from the outset. This whole code that says lower-tier players can't lay a clean hit on star players without getting the shit kicked out of them in retaliation has no place in any sport. The NHL has an opportunity to get rid of it once and for all, but choose not to.

posted by rocket88 at 02:25 PM on August 16

Yes, garf, but no one was allowed to play for 17 months. How can you be suspended from games that don't exist? And the NHL didn't mandate that the IIHF bar Bertuzzi -- it couldn't. Take the reverse -- if Bertuzzi had played overseas, would he have been suspended for this entire year? I highly doubt it. As for feeling wronged ... so what? If you're saying the blame lies partially with the NHL for not suspending some of the Canucks immediately for what were clearly hints that they would go after Moore, I agree, but remember -- Vancouver and Colorado played once in the interim and there were no incidences, mainly (I think) because the NHL sent people to watch over the game. Next match-up, no chaperones and boom -- Steve Moore has a broken neck. That's not "heat of the moment". That's cold and calculating, and it doesn't even mention Bertuzzi stalking Moore around the ice. But maybe it says even more that the NHL simply will not come down severely enough in instances like this. In what other sport or occupation would someone who committed this sort of offense be allowed to return to work, possibly to endanger his or her fellow workers? It sends the message that the National Hockey League welcomes and endorses these sorts of attacks, and that's the one of the very reasons the sport is so marginalized. On preview: I don't want Bertuzzi in a coma. I also don't want him to maim or possibly kill someone next time he can't control himself. Why is that too much to ask?

posted by wfrazerjr at 02:26 PM on August 16

lbb - An exaggeration - those that wish to see Bertuzzi kicked out of the NHL. Never gonna happen for many good reasons. Let's drop the "Canucks could have won the Cup" argument, shall we? Sure they could have. They probably wouldn't have - but they did get taken to overtime of game seven in the first round and the absence of Bertuzzi was well felt. The point is that the whole organization was rightly and fitfully punished. That's a huge amount of lost revenue for even one more series. In the ticket-driven NHL, where a majority of revenue and profit is made in the post-season, it's not a lip serivce repercussion. Vancouver lost millions.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:32 PM on August 16

Also - grum -- do you have a link or something with those doctor's conclusions? I've been looking for such a thing for a while now, but haven't been able to find it. I'd appreciate a pointer. I'm searching for it myself. It was a comment made by Moore's lawyer during an interview with SportsNet (Canadian sports channel) after the announcement of Bertuzzi's reinstatement. I was a bit shocked when I heard that, and I wish I could find some corroborating evidence, but none of the usual suspects seems to be reporting that as well. As a result, it's pretty much an unsubstantiated claim, and I probably shouldn't have based my complaint so heavily on it.

posted by grum@work at 02:35 PM on August 16

Bertuzzi would have sent Moore a Hallmark card, but I don't think they have one that says: "sorry about that mistake that happened to me when your neck somehow got broken." Image hosted by Photobucket.com

posted by chris2sy at 02:40 PM on August 16

Once a goon, always a goon...Bertuzzi should join a canadian hockey league w/ Link Gaetz!!!!!!!!

posted by thefurbs at 03:02 PM on August 16

fraze, I could've sworn Nash and Thornton played on the same line last year across the pond. 13 games is inaccurate. 13 NHL games is accurate. But hockey exists outside the NHL, as many NHLers discovered last year. Sans Bertuzzi. I'm not saying feeling wronged justifies anything. I'm saying it explains why. Not that the NHL could step in an penalize Moore for the hit after the fact, but that would've been a defusing course of action. Punishing verbal threats is an option as well. Needless to say, blame obviously lies beyond Bertuzzi. I'm not going to argue cold and calculating versus pent-up irrationality. Though, if it was so well-planned, he is one dumb fuck for doing it on the ice, on live tv, in front of an audience of several hundred thousand, maybe even a million, people. But I can say I've thought some weird shit under relationship stress (I was lucky enough not to be in situations that faciliated bad behaviour) and that is what this is; Naslund injury related stress. llb, I read "if you disable someone, somehow you ought to take part in that life sentence..." as meaning "suspensions that last the length of the injury".

posted by garfield at 03:21 PM on August 16

they did get taken to overtime of game seven in the first round and the absence of Bertuzzi was well felt. OK, that's the argument I want dropped. That's just not how hockey works. You can't "just add a player" and assume the series result would have been different. Vancouver lost millions. They may have lost millions. Who says they wouldn't have gone down in six with Bert in the lineup? Then they would have gained one playoff game's revenue. The team's hypothetical performance in the playoffs is impossible to establish, and has no relevance to Bertuzzi's punishment.

posted by qbert72 at 03:49 PM on August 16

rcade's quote includes the words "my mistake"...I fail to see how he is shucking responsibility. In retrospect, I think you're right -- that particular phrase wasn't as bad as I thought. Overall, though, all of his comments suggest someone who only feels sympathy for himself in this matter.

posted by rcade at 03:55 PM on August 16

I'd have to say it would all depend upon his intent. If he intended to cause such a brutal injury, why did he "not" use his stick?And i totally disagree with the "punch broke his neck, not the fall" diagnosis. The injury was obviously a "compression injury".Now while i dont think the punch broke his neck, i do think the follow up (-DDT- if you will) did.Either way, this folks his hockey. "He was nowhere near the play." This person doesnt understand hockey(or pro sports for that matter)How many times have you witnessed a hit or a block in the nfl on someone that is "no where near the play". If you're on the field/ice/court/ you are well aware that you are fair game.And further more these people are paid ENOUGH to know that. Lets also not forget that the hit on moore(who i do feel very sorry for)was infact retaliation. I just dont think that bertuzzi intended any more of a brutal injury than moore did when he hit (whoever it was), Would someone please find out the injury sustained by the guy Moore hit? I also think had bertuzzi came up to moore from the front and not the back this thread wouldnt exsist.Note to all you thugs out there, be a man,dont go after someone from behind. if you're truly man enough to take someone on, do it face to face. In the heat of anger or retaliation, you never know what kind of result there is going to be. What if Moore would have died?Or Brashear for that matter. You so called thugs in the nhl that "think" you're hard,why are so many of you now attacking from behind? Are you scared? Are you taking the path of least resistence? Confront a man face to face. Give him the chance to defend himself and his life.If you live by the "dirty hit" or the "cheap shot", you're certainly going to die by it. Hey Todd,you coming up from behind steve says alot about you as a person.maybe you did intend to inflict such a brutal injury. Maybe you intended a black eye. Next time take a man "head-on". Until you do, stop fucking crying about the way you're being treated. "So a man soeth, that shall he also reap". Reap it pussy.

posted by Web_Spiner at 03:57 PM on August 16

Hockey exists outside the NHL, garf. It's just that the NHL doesn't run every single hockey league in the world. Their suspension has no bearing anywhere outside their own games. If the IIHF chooses to honor it, so be it, but if they hadn't, would you still be saying games he played in Europe shouldn't count toward the suspension? Again, I highly doubt it. Another way: You get indefinitely suspended from your job at IBM for slugging a co-worker in the back of the head. You manage to get on at Apple. Do you think the fact Apple lowered itself to hire you should affect the decision of IBM to accept you back or not? Why would it? Not that the NHL could step in an penalize Moore for the hit after the fact, but that would've been a defusing course of action. I assume you meant Bertuzzi there, because there was no reason to penalize Moore for his hit on Naslund. It was clean, legal and there was no penalty called. Needless to say, blame obviously lies beyond Bertuzzi. How is that obvious? There's blame to go around the NHL for failing to address the situation (although they attended the next game and probably thought the issue had blown over) and the Canucks for being farking morons about the whole thing. But how does any of this excuse Bertuzzi's actions? The man committed assault, and it was an assault which had been discussed, to some degree planned and then executed after having to chase Moore down. Why isn't he responsible? The only way I would accept that is if you are arguing that he's a sociopath and can't feel remorse or guilt for his actions. Are you? And what's this facilitating behavior stuff? So you are saying you thought about doing some harm to someone else, but you thought better of it? You know what that makes you? A normal human being, one that didn't carry out a really stupid and irrational idea, one that found it within himself to check his aggressive behavior. Too bad we can't say the same for Todd, and we'd be smart to consider his chances for doing it again. ...he is one dumb fuck ... Finally, we agree.

posted by wfrazerjr at 04:31 PM on August 16

Right. So the fact that other leagues, apart from the NHL, banned Bertuzzi diminishes his punishment to only 13 NHL games how? And I think the Apple/IBM example is a false analogy. Apple never hired Bertuzzi while IBM had him suspended. I assume you meant Bertuzzi there You assume wrong. But you knew that. We'll always disagree about the nautre of Moore's headshot on Naslund. It might've be legal, the ref might've missed the call, but it sure wasn't clean. I just layed out a couple courses of action that could've been taken (penalizing Moore, penalizing verbal threats, punishing front offices for condoning and allowing such behaviour between the teams), but weren't, that could've prevented, or reduced the likelihood, of the incident. Ergo, Bertuzzi isn't the only one to blame. Why isn't he responsible? Bertuzzi admitted responsibility. And if remorse doesn't count for anything with you, that's a tough pill to swallow. You aren't one of those "jail ain't for rehabilitation" folks, are you? My point was that if given the chance, I very well could've acted on some really bad ideas, in retrospect. I don't think that makes me better than Bertuzzi, just more fortunate. I think this quote from Adam Oates puts it best: "I have never played with a guy that wanted to hurt somebody, but he did want to protect Markus Naslund. That's what it's about, and he went too far. It paints a bad picture, no question."

posted by garfield at 05:47 PM on August 16

I still wouldn't mind seeing Bertuzzi out until Moore can play again. That seems pretty fair to me. This sort of thing is probably an unworkable NHL policy - I know a lot of hurt players would just stay "hurt" for longer than they needed to, and that some goons near the end of their careers wouldn't really be dissuaded by lengthy suspensions, but hey. Bertuzzi broke Moore's neck, and the punch was clearly thrown with intent to injure while breaking the NHL rules, and he broke the dude's neck. If the gloves are off and someone gets hurt - so be it. But like this... I mean, this was just awful. I think it's only fair. I don't think Bertuzzi should be allowed to play yet, and I hope Moore makes absolute boatloads of cash in his civil suit.

posted by Samsonov14 at 05:48 PM on August 16

since qbert has dissed my "the Canucks were hurt" line of thinking twice I'll say that of course logic does not dictate that retrospectively adding X to situation Y changes outcome Z. but it is fuel for the Canucks to feel punished in the same way that the Flames fans would have been gutted to have lost game 7 IF Vancouver had scored in OT given that the tying goal was scored with 6 seconds left in the third when Naslund, moments earlier, blew by Iginla at centre ice when he uncharacteristically (and unclutchly) fell on his ass. if Iginla doesn't fall on his ass he is able to put pressure on Naslund at centre ice and the game probably doesn't go to OT. who knows. it probably would have made a difference in the outcome. so, i'll still say that losing their 2nd or 3rd best player certainly has SOME effect that cannot be quantified so simply that it can be either accepted as saying the "Canucks woulda won" or rejected by "you can't even guess". part of the fun is wondering what if? if Cloutier doesn't get injured in that series then they wouldn't have gone three deep into their goalie ranks and that probably would have made a difference. The loser there was the fans of the Canucks who will never know. They may not have a team that strong again until who knows when. of course the flames going to game 7 of the Stanley Cup final... who knows what effect regulars Dean McAmmond, Steve Reinprecht, Denis Gauthier and Matthew Lombardi might have had (making no mention injuries to Toni Lydman and Shean Donovan who were able to play some games in the final). maybe I am just coming from a pessimistic position. as a flames fan I don't forget that they finished 6th in their conference and were fortunate to get several breaks in that Canucks series that, given the wafer thin margin, may have made all the difference. WAFER THIN margin.

posted by gspm at 06:19 PM on August 16

gspm, I hope you've seen John Cleese's comments at Graham Chapman's memorial service. Contains some non-work-safe audio. Okay, back to the hockey.

posted by Samsonov14 at 06:44 PM on August 16

I'm just saying that what one employer does or does not choose to do has absolutely no effect on another employer's decisions. How could it? And the bottom line of all of it is -- 13 games. That's the number of NHL games he missed, the ones that were directly enforceable by his league. It might've be legal, the ref might've missed the call, but it sure wasn't clean. So, it was legal, the ref (who was right there) didn't call a penalty ... how is that not clean? Who is the interpreter of what "clean" is, you -- or the referee and the NHL? And if the latter two agree that there was no infraction, why is there this sense of "Well, Moore had it coming?" Even that is fucking ridiculous, because, gee, did he have a broken neck and the end of his career coming? Bertuzzi admitted responsibility. You see Bertuzzi as remorseful. I see his demeanor as self-serving bullshit. One minute he's crying about it, the next he's giving interviews where he says he's not going to change his style of play and the incident was his mistake. Goddamn it, there was no mistake here. There was an attack. That's not a mistake. And I'd chime in about the jail thing, except, gosh, Bertuzzi never did jail time for it, although he should have. And there's more than one party to blame, yes ... but none of them are Steve Moore, and the biggest, hugest piece of blame pie you've ever seen is still sitting at Todd Bertuzzi's place at the table. When he picks up the fork and eats a little, let me know. In my eyes, Garfield, it does make you a better person that you held it back. That's restraint, self-control and all those other things your parents taught you. Bertuzzi apparently lacks them, and a guy like that shouldn't be playing a game where big guys skate around at high speeds carrying large sticks.

posted by wfrazerjr at 07:18 PM on August 16

samsonov: hadn't seen that. thanks for the tip.

posted by gspm at 07:37 PM on August 16

I'm really going to miss the days of NO HOCKEY.

posted by shmoobocko at 08:32 PM on August 16

"OK, that's the argument I want dropped. That's just not how hockey works. You can't "just add a player" and assume the series result would have been different." I hardly think the notion that the Canucks are a better team, (and may have experienced a better fate in the playoffs) with Bertuzzi than without is controversial. I'm not just "adding a player" - I'm adding probably the third best player in the entire series.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:51 PM on August 16

I'm really going to miss the days of NO HOCKEY. TROLL. Do not respond or post, please.

posted by Samsonov14 at 08:57 PM on August 16

I hardly think the notion that the Canucks are a better team, (and may have experienced a better fate in the playoffs) with Bertuzzi than without is controversial. I'm not just "adding a player" - I'm adding probably the third best player in the entire series. Okay Weedy, this is a little OT, but: What %chance of winning the cup do the Nucks have with Bertuzzi on their team? I guess I'm calling you out a bit, but I'm still doing this with a healthy Thornton for the Bruins. You gotta dream, right? So...

posted by Samsonov14 at 09:04 PM on August 16

I'm really going to miss the days of NO HOCKEY. I know i'm new here but, i dont think i have ever been to a sports forum based website and someone say they would rather not have the 4th(in my opinon)major team sport not go on at all. Having played in the minors for 3 years i must say hockey comes right after football with me. Besides the skill required to perform on the most slippery surface known to man,i must say that you need twice as much endurance as basketball/football/and 8 times as much as "americas past time".And besides that, at age nine my father told me "he went to a fight between the flyers and rangers and a hockey game broke out".So you have be tough as well.What other pro league can claim that one of its teams beat another international team completely off the playing surfaceduring the game. See russian national team quits against philadelphia flyers(i forget what year it was). Thank God for that guy who picked up the stick off the ground that day, asked his friend to stand between the 2 trees, then said "ok, im going to smack this rock as hard as i can(over 90 miles an hour)past you between the trees. And you try to stop it. Then that nutcase said, "on 1 condition, since this is going to hurt, i reserve the right to come kick the shit out of you when i ever i feel like it". The goalie was born. I cant wait for the season to start. p.s.i still dont think i would call the poor guy a "troll" though.

posted by Web_Spiner at 09:53 PM on August 16

I've been undermined.

posted by Samsonov14 at 10:07 PM on August 16

Thanks for the Cleese dude!

posted by billsaysthis at 10:32 PM on August 16

hockey as in boxing u must protect urself at all times , even from rabbit punches

posted by stopthepuckbob at 05:00 AM on August 17

Hey Bertuzzi joined Spofi! or, ?? So Moore should have spent the entire game skating around in a protective stance and it is his fault he has hurt when he got ambushed from behind??

posted by gspm at 07:09 AM on August 17

What %chance of winning the cup do the Nucks have with Bertuzzi on their team? I guess I'm calling you out a bit, but I'm still doing this with a healthy Thornton for the Bruins. You gotta dream, right? So... Ah - I have no idea. I had the 'Nucks ranked fourth in the West after Colorado, San Jose and Detroit - My point, perhaps poorly made, was that unlike your Thornton (who had no business playing), a healthly Bertuzzi is indeed one of those difference making players. In a series that was close he most certainly had a chance in putting the Canucks over the edge. Yet, who's to say whether or not he would've got a stupid penalty at a crucial point in game seven and tanked it. However, I certainly stand by the notion that Todd Bertuzzi makes the Canucks a far more dangerous team with than without - in any of the ways you can think of - and his absence cost the Canucks a chance at millions more in playoff gate revenue. I'm not suggestiing for a moment that if Bertuzzi was there, the Canucks are going to win the Cup - I was merely pointing out the many ways his punishment had impacted the franchise and the man already. Isn't it funny how hockey fans always capitalize the 'Cup'. It's like saying He when you mean God. Hell, I don't even capitalize God sometimes. My allegiance is clear.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:06 AM on August 17

The team's hypothetical performance in the playoffs is impossible to establish, and has no relevance to Bertuzzi's punishment. It absolutely does - but not in retrospect. The NHL knew exactly what it was doing when it removed Bertuzzi from playoff elegibility. It was punishing the franchise for allowing the behaviour - hell, even encouraging it. Not that I'm suggesting there was an alternative punishment available, but that was absolutely part of the deal. Bertuzzi did not act in a vaccuum.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:14 AM on August 17

And as my continued vulturing of this thread illustrates - I miss you hockey. I'm glad your back. But fuck you for leaving. Any one else getting those little shivers when they see all the player movement and rule changes and for the briefest of instances actually think that 'man, they might have ACTUALLY fixed this game'? The Leafs look like shit, and I can't remember being this excited about a season starting in a decade.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:18 AM on August 17

just a couple things to remember: - the game was (9-2 or something like that) - Steve was a marked man - WHY WAS HE SENT ON THE ICE LATE IN THE 3RD PERIOD AGAINST THE BERTUZZI LINE? - Col Coaches played a role - for about 6 weeks, the media CONSTANTLY interviewed the canucks asking "IS THIS THE DAY MOORE GETS PAID BACK FOR THE HIT ON NASLUND?!" - because the games were tight, the fire fueled longer and longer - the media played a role - if you watch the tape, it is EVIDENT that Steve Moore was being cornered for at least 30-45 seconds by Bertuzzi - to skate away and try turning your back on someone obviously looking to pay you back, KNOWING THAT HOCKEY PROTOCOL MEANT YOU HAD TO ANSWER FOR HITS AGAINST STAR PLAYERS WAS FOOLISH TO BEGIN WITH - STEVE SHOULD HAVE TURTLED - Steve Moore played a role (as viscous and callous as you want to call me, you know this to be true) - the fans were calling for blood of Moore - and GM Place ERUPTED AFTER THE PUNCH - ERUPTED - FOR THE FANS TO LATER SAY HOW DISCUSTED THEY WERE WAS SICK - the fans played a role TODD BERTUZZI PAID THE PRICE - BUT THERE WERE A LOT OF MITIGATING AND CONTRIBUTING FACTORS - LEAVE THIS SCAPEGOAT ALONE NOW . . . . I STILL QUESTION, CONSIDERING THE CANUCKS WERE AT HOME, GETTING SLAPPED ON THE SCOREBOARD AND WITH THE UNDERLINING FIRE, WHY, WHY, WHY, WHY DID THE COCKY AV COACHES SEND OUT STEVE MOORE LATE IN THE 3RD PERIOD . . . MAKES NO SENSE WHATSOEVER . . . . Hockey is going to rock this year! let this issue die. Steve Moore has played this up FAR too long . . . as has his lawyers . . . no apology attemtped?! lies, lies, lies . .. . just like he was at the hospital specializing in broken necks . . .. lies, lies, lies . . .

posted by starkid at 08:30 AM on August 17

Wow. Turns out it was all Steve Moore's fault. Well, I'll be damned.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:38 AM on August 17

PS - the implication that Todd broke Moore's neck intentionally with a punch is kinda out there, dont you think? if you watch how Bert 'fights' he always just smooches others to the ice - a fighter he is not . . . i think maybe?! the dog pile after?! was a little more contributing than this post has acknowledged . . . to not call this an accident is rather ignorant - do you really believe that a punch to the back of the head and a slam was done by Bert to intentionally hurt Moore as much as humanely possible - intentionally neck breaking martial art move by Bert? - cmon! . . . an accident it was and Bert was punished FOR THE CONSEQUENCE OF THE ACTION - NOT THE ACTION ITSELF - there have been a LOT more viscous intentional actions to hurt players than this - the result was the thing that was awful . . .

posted by starkid at 08:39 AM on August 17

as viscous and callous as you want to call me, you know this to be true I don't know about your being resistant to flow and sticky, but the callous part you've got down to a T.

posted by wfrazerjr at 08:41 AM on August 17

Starkid, you're late to the party, and your arguments are weak and redundant. When you come up with something besides "He didn't mean it" or "That's hockey", please come back and share it. In the meantime, do a search and see the four or five threads that have been devoted to this, see that your case has already been made with better grammar and fewer capital letters and come up with some other way to sway those of us who think Bertuzzi is a fucking thug who shouldn't ever play in the league again. Thanks. Oh, and piss on Eddie Shore.

posted by wfrazerjr at 08:45 AM on August 17

at least address starkid's argument point by point. I can find alot of value in the comments provided. and fraze, you seem to be one of a few who think he should never play in the league again. and back to our argument....if you choose to think the NHL and IIHF did not discuss and were not in agreement to ban Bertuzzi from hockey, worldwide, I can't convince you otherwise. If you think the NHL and IIHF act independently of eachother, with no consideration of each other's actions, then 13 games is all Bertuzzi was barred from. Ever witnessed a missed call? One so blatant the league had to send chaperones to the next game between the two teams in question to ensure their mistake would not escalate? But they muffed that call too, and the issue did escalate as soon as they didn't send chaperones? I have. You haven't? And the refs and the league are infallible you say? Oh. There was an attack. That's not a mistake Mistake: error in judgement. If attacking someone isn't an error in judgement, I don't know what is. When he picks up the fork and eats a little, let me know So pleading guilty is dumping his plate in the garbage then? and considering how out of sight Bertuzzi was kept for months, your rock solid opinion of his disdain for accepting responsibility really is astounding.

posted by garfield at 09:33 AM on August 17

You missed my whole concept gspm. i am saying that todd wouldnt run tough guys like twist, domi, ray, and the list goes on. instead he runs smaller guys. and he does it when he has a change to pull up and not hit them to hurt them. i believe in finishing yours checks. and good open ice hits. that hit stevens put on lindros was a clean open ice hit. the ones bertuzzi does are in the corner up against the glass elbows up with the intent to injure smaller players. he is dirty. hard hitting in hockey helllllllllllllllllllll yes. dirty no. get rid of the cheap shot artists and hockey will be much better or let the enforcers back to do their jobs. plain and simple.

posted by hullie16 at 10:09 AM on August 17

good point - I AM late to the party . . . just a 'nuck fan sick of the 'ban Bert forever' mentality - get real! . . . and the reason you dont see Bert smushing guys like twist, domi, ray is that Bert plays on the top line - the skill line - with Naslund - teams wouldnt be stupid enough to throw these plumbers out there and get burned on the scoreboard in case a score was to be settled . . . and, "That's hockey"!! - that will happen this year - and you can witness what happens to 'tough guys' like whomever the Avs toss Berts way . . .

posted by starkid at 10:34 AM on August 17

and regarding "see that your case has already been made with better grammar and fewer capital letters " - when you cant win a debate, attack the debater . . . cmon! - if you are trying to come accross as some kind of intellectual, you ae in the wrong scene bro . . .

posted by starkid at 10:39 AM on August 17

Mistake: error in judgement. If attacking someone isn't an error in judgement, I don't know what is. Yeah, it is. But I think fraze (can't really speak for fraze, of course) is saying its not an "oops, look what happened" accident-type mistake, its more like "look how fucking dumb that was" intentional-act-type mistake. When Bertuzzi says: "when my mistake happened..." what the fuck is that? Why not "when I made my mistake?" Can't he accept the blame when he is talking about it? Did he actually plead to assault, or was it jaywalking, because it was difficult to tell with the deal he got from the Crown. It didn't just happen and it wasn't an accident. The severity of the injury to Moore was the only part that was unintended. The act was intentional and the intent to hurt Moore was there. It may not have been an intent to injure Moore to that degree, but it was certainly foreseeable that an injury of that nature could occur under those circumstances. That said, I understand that Canucks fans will probably view the whole thing in a light most favorable to Bertuzzi. That is only natural.

posted by chris2sy at 10:40 AM on August 17

I take your points there chris2sy - but the spelling is 'phrase' - apparently wfrazerjr thinks he is in a spelling and grammer test - so I thought I'd address that now . . . all your points are valid and fair - except the crown part . . . I have to argue that what goes on on the ice should stay there - the act was not criminal in hockey's sphere of gaming - players are trying to hurt each other every game, where does a line get drawn? Todd punched him in the back of the head - and went to slam him into the ice - fair enough - but this type of action happens ALL THE TIME - to get law enforcement involved is short sighted and over exagerating the action . . . The severity of the injury to Moore was the only part that was unintended. is correct - the "assault" is unfair - like I said, this type of infliction happens every game - and is part of the game - players that hit stars know that they are marked men - steve was a marked man - he was going to pay a price - one that was intended to hurt him - NOT break his neck, but hurt him . . . he shoulda stepped up, taken the shots Bert was going to give him and turtle - ala Claude Lemieux . . .

posted by starkid at 11:23 AM on August 17

What most of you fail to realize is that, though his actions were those of a pussy, fighting and injuries are and always have been a part of the great sport of hockey. As much as checking an opponent into the boards or even the damn biscuit. When you complain about incidents the way you are, people DO take notice and make changes. Take out that part of hockey and, you think they are losing money now? Say goodbye to half of the fan base that's left.

posted by jager at 11:26 AM on August 17

What gets me even more is you people who want to complain about the violence of the sport because of your kids. NEWS FLASH: We live in a violent world, much more so than a fist fight. Stop sheltering your kids and teach them to think for themselves, what you feel is right and wrong. You can't keep them locked up without individual thoughts forever. If you don't like it, DON'T WATCH IT!

posted by jager at 11:35 AM on August 17

go jager go!! - points well made . . .

posted by starkid at 11:47 AM on August 17

ok, chris2sy, fraze you too, lets look at the "happened" thing in context. "People make mistakes in life. Unfortunately I was under the microscope and on TV when my mistake happened." The first sentence sounds like he is associating himself with people in general and that they themselves, as individuals, make mistakes. The second sentence adds his particular circumstances of his mistake. Now if we look at the primary definitions of both 'happen' and 'occur' we see there is neglible differences: "to take place" vs. "to come to pass". I get that 'happened' has negative passing-the-buck connotation to it, but not in its usage here. 'Occurred' could be easily substituted, and the meaning wouldn't change.

posted by garfield at 12:00 PM on August 17

What gets me even more is you people who want to complain about the violence of the sport because of your kids. NEWS FLASH: We live in a violent world, much more so than a fist fight. Stop sheltering your kids and teach them to think for themselves, what you feel is right and wrong. You can't keep them locked up without individual thoughts forever. Wow, that might be the worst child-rearing advice I have ever heard. Expose your children to violence so that your children will learn to think for themselves? Umm, I don't think so.

posted by bperk at 12:05 PM on August 17

Me: The team's hypothetical performance in the playoffs is impossible to establish, and has no relevance to Bertuzzi's punishment. Weedy: It absolutely does - but not in retrospect. The NHL knew exactly what it was doing when it removed Bertuzzi from playoff elegibility. It was punishing the franchise for allowing the behaviour - hell, even encouraging it. OK, fair enough, I'm in agreement here. Although what you're saying here applies to any suspension. The team loses a player for X games, whatever it's responsibilities in the action were. a healthly Bertuzzi is indeed one of those difference making players No, he's not. For the simple reason that this kind of player does not exist. Hockey, and especially playoff hockey, is the quintessencial team sport. The only individual player who can make such a difference is the goaltender. When the goalie is able to block every shot, his team is bound to win. Every other position player's individual contribution to team success is very difficult to quantify precisely. It's one of the big differences between hockey and baseball. Gretzky couldn't win the Cup without the rest of the Oilers. Howe couldn't win the Cup after Ted Lindsay left. There is such a thing as "team chemistry" in hockey. And it's not just the sum of the team's parts. That being said, I love hockey. It's going to be hard not to care. And I'd take Bert on my fantasy team in a heartbeat. And my personal opinion about the suspension: he should have sat out this season too. Obvious intent to injure should result in an automatic, minimum one season suspension. These should be dished out even no when no actual injury occurs. I think this is the NHL's biggest problem: deciding punishment on an action's outcomes instead of the decisions that led to the action.

posted by qbert72 at 12:08 PM on August 17

more on "team"

posted by garfield at 12:22 PM on August 17

No, he's not. For the simple reason that this kind of player does not exist. Hockey, and especially playoff hockey, is the quintessencial team sport. The only individual player who can make such a difference is the goaltender. I disagree. Front line players score more goals, play more ice and impact games more than the other components of the team. That is why they are in demand during the drafting stages, are paid more money and win more awards. While you are correct that 'one man' can win a series if he is the goalie; front line players have the impact to change a series with their play. While it is true that Gretzky needed a team behind him to win those Cups - that team needed Gretzky, and what's more, Gretzky being on that team provided the foundation for the team to be built - superior players are not replaceable units - they influence who comes next, who plays where and how much and what they are required to do - not to mention the impact that leadership has in a dressing room in the emotional game that is hockey. I would defy you to find a single Calgary Flames player, employee or fan who believes that Iginla was incidental in their Cup run. They would not have made it without him - not any of the other guys - him. Why? Because he was the best hockey player in the world for those 5 weeks. That is not to suggest that Kipprosoff wasn't instrumental either, but Kipper cannot win games - he can prevent goals. There is a difference.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 12:34 PM on August 17

Actually, wouldn't it fit better (more symmetric?) if he had said: "People make mistakes in life. Unfortunately I was under the microscope and on TV when I made my mistake." People make mistakes...and I made a mistake. So why didn't he say it that way? Maybe its nothing and reading too much into it. It just gave me the impression that he couldn't say he made a mistake. That he said "it happened" instead of he "did it." Maybe I'm seeing something that isn't there though, doing an unfair dissection of his statement.

posted by chris2sy at 12:45 PM on August 17

The point I was making and Weedy is sayin' is that whomever entered the Cancuks roster as a replacement for Bertuzzi as the RW on the 4th line (dunno who that would be seeing as ESPN says that in game 1 the Canucks dressed 5 centres, 6 LW and zero RW) was sure wasn't as good as Bertuzzi. Ergo, the Canucks would have, on paper, been a different and better team with the addition of Bertuzzi and the swapping out of the replacement forward. In this "cannot be supported by actual facts" land.

posted by gspm at 12:54 PM on August 17

definitely more symmetric...but he's a hockey player.

posted by garfield at 01:10 PM on August 17

... And is that so hard to accept, Q? It's ok - I admit that you're wrong. Ha!

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:12 PM on August 17

the game was (9-2 or something like that) - Steve was a marked man - WHY WAS HE SENT ON THE ICE LATE IN THE 3RD PERIOD AGAINST THE BERTUZZI LINE? Not only that, Moore was dressed extremely provocatively. He's lucky Bertuzzi didn't rape him. Regarding fights in hockey and parenting, I enjoy some of them as an adult, but the biggest reason I haven't taken my sons to an NHL or minor league game is because of fights. Hockey fans love fights. A young kid who sees a crowd cheering on their guy to win a fight is getting a pretty strong message that fighting's cool, which doesn't mesh very well with the one-punch-and-you're-suspended rule in a public elementary school. The NHL loses some of my money due to fights, and I'll bet there are some other parents who share my concern.

posted by rcade at 01:18 PM on August 17

superior players are not replaceable units Agreed. But they're not perfect cogs that you can assemble together for a predictable result either. If they were, Rangers fans wouldn't be so sad. I'm in no way denying Iginla's contribution, he was that team's leader, which is an essential role in a working team chemistry. You're probably right to say the Flames wouldn't have made it as far as they did without Iginla, but this has as much to do with his role in the team than with his on-ice contribution. And since we're talking about "superior players", I'll say this: I don't consider Bertuzzi to be one at all. He's not as bad as say, Dan Quinn, but I'll be curious to see how he fares without Naslund. Let's not kid ourselves on who the true superior player on the Canucks team is. If the Canucks management were bright, they'd wait for this story to die, and trade Bert while his value is high. They need a goalie if they're serious about the Cup. Do you believe in Auld?

posted by qbert72 at 01:19 PM on August 17

rcade, is football acceptable within the paramenters elementay school rules? how about baseball brawls? and honestly, do you let them watch cartoons or movies? the "fighting is cool" meme is not exclusive to hockey, and insulation is probably the worst response to it, imho.

posted by garfield at 01:57 PM on August 17

Do you believe in Auld? Hell no, the Canucks actually would've benefitted from probably letting Naslund go and using the money on a better puckcarrying defenceman and more strength up the middle. So Bertuzzi is with Naslund again. I don't see how you couldn't see Bertuzzi as a superior player - his point totals for the last three years average out to better than a point a game. That's a tough thing to do in the modern NHL - especially on a team where your opponents know that all you have is one line. He's been invited to Team Canada - not exactly a bunch of grinders, there. Plus he's big, mean and nasty. All good things for a hockey player. Don't get me wrong, I don't seem him as a threat in the Hart race - but it wouldn't surprise me to see him score 40 goals either. Really depends on how he reacts to the circus that will follow him around.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:24 PM on August 17

rcade, is football acceptable within the paramenters elementay school rules? how about baseball brawls? and honestly, do you let them watch cartoons or movies? Football hits are a part of the game. Baseball brawls are rare. If they were as common as hockey fights, I'd have a problem there too. There's a difference between a fight in a movie and two real people dropping the gloves and fighting to the cheers of thousands of people. I'm not planning to keep them away from this stuff forever -- just until they're old enough to have some judgment about the subject. Kids are sponges. One afternoon with a first-person shooter on GameCube, and my nine-year-old's now drawing violent comic books all day long. I'm beginning to wonder if this is how Stephen King got started.

posted by rcade at 02:31 PM on August 17

ok. i just wanted you to clarify.

posted by garfield at 02:39 PM on August 17

All I am saying is that, while children are succeptable to what they see, you can't keep them from it...no matter what. I have a 4 year old who has seen more than he needs to already...but I help him understand as best I can...and he displays no violent tendencies. I can only hope he retains this thought process, but I can never MAKE him think this way. But he loves to watch hockey right beside me...he loves the fights, but even says 'that's mean". If your too useless to talk to your kids, that's your problem. But some may show their kids when they are older....eventually they will see it. But don't make the true fans suffer just because you don't want to try to talk to Little Jonny or whatever

posted by jager at 03:06 PM on August 17

okay, i got the "Bertuzzi woulda made a difference" angle that qbert can agree with. Had Bertuzzi played in the Flames series (the rest of the consdieration, game results aside, remaining the same) then either the Canucks would have won OR a series win by the Flames would have been even more impressive. and a derailing quirk I didn't catch at the time - the last three times that Vancouver and Calgary have met in the first round of the playoffs resulted in the series being decided in game 7 in OT with the winner eventually making it to the final... Cgy in 89 and 04, Vancouver in 94.

posted by gspm at 03:09 PM on August 17

as for canucks goaltending - I wont say Cloutier, nor Auld is the answer - but lets get realistic - there are about 4 'playoff' goaltenders that steal games - and a few that HAVE done it for a year . . . Giguere one year and Kiprosoff the year after . . . it remains to be seen . . . so - leave Auld alone - hell - he hasnt even played a year yet and you are questioning his career in the NHL? - if you dont have Martin Brodeur or Khabibulin, you pretty much dont have goaltending under the standards implied . . . its funny how goaltenders take so much heat . . .

posted by starkid at 03:11 PM on August 17

Maybe some parnts do agree that it's too violent for their kids...but it's a sick world. Do you tell your children they can't watch the news? Or COPS? If your kids don't turn out right, don't use hockey or music or whatever as the scapegoat. All children have a phase, just like we all did, of rebellion. But if it goes into adulthood, might want to check the mirror

posted by jager at 03:17 PM on August 17

Goaltenders have to take the heat...despite the concept of the team captain, the goaltender is the backbone of the team. But they take too much heat, I agree. Without a decent defensive line, you can't stop every shot

posted by jager at 03:19 PM on August 17

I disagree. Front line players score more goals, play more ice and impact games more than the other components of the team. That is why they are in demand during the drafting stages, are paid more money and win more awards I agree, and to prove this point easily. You get one pick from the 87 oilers(or was it 86)gretzky or furr?Enough said about that. Back to "bertussy". I like him as a player. Hes definitly good. I still have a problem with his approach(from behind). 2 things should come from behind.A male dog and an overbearing cellmate.The later and anything else attacking a man from behind is the act of a sissy. he shoulda stepped up, taken the shots Bert was going to give him and turtle ?????not trying to be a smartass here but, how the hell do you "step up" when a pussy hits you from behind? I already know so dont bother posting it "Moore was skating away from him the whole time". That means he didnt want any part of it. He probably had a bad feeling anyway. I mean look what happend. Watch the film.He grabbed his jersey first.Be a real hockey thug, turn him around,pull it over his head and start pounding.Bertussy=good hockey skills/terrible tough guy. Last and least I take your points there chris2sy - but the spelling is 'phrase' - apparently wfrazerjr thinks he is in a spelling and grammer test - so I thought I'd address that now Never point out someone elses errors when you're all over the board with your own. you ae in the wrong scene bro apparently wfrazerjr thinks he is IN a spelling and grammer test What do the insizide of a speallin and gramor test look like?

posted by Web_Spiner at 04:48 PM on August 17

Top Ten Goals of 2003-04 NHL Season [via => via]

posted by garfield at 04:57 PM on August 17

at least address starkid's argument point by point. I'm not going to address points that have been made several different times in this thread and others. I'm trying not to repeat myself now. And starkid, sorry to come down hard, but you're undermining your own credibility if you won't take the time to spell or form sentences properly. Oh, and my name is Frazer, acceptable shortened version "Fraze", not "phrase". It just doesn't matter to me if the IIHF consulted the NHL about the ban. I don't understand how it could, since the two leagues are in no way linked. The NHL issued the punishment, so why would anyone else's games factor into the length of that suspension? Ever witnessed a missed call? Calls are missed, but mainly away from play. There was a man in stripes rightthere on the Moore hit ... no call. I'm also guessing it was reviewed by the league ... and no action. As I said, if the league and the ref say no foul, I tend to take their word for it. I get that others thought it was illegal and vicious ... it's just that the folks in charge didn't, and the folks in charge ain't the Canucks. Mistake: error in judgement. If attacking someone isn't an error in judgement, I don't know what is. Technically, it's a mistake. But I tend to think of a mistake as "I misjudged the time and I apologize for being late," or "Sorry I threw up all over the backseat of your car after you supplied me with three bottles of Mad Dog 20/20". This was a felony. Do you think felonies are generally oopsie little forgivable mistakes? I'm definitely a hardass, and I definitely want people held responsible for what they do. In this case, I don't think Bertuzzi has been. He will be in the civil courts (I hope), but whatever Moore gets in restitution, it won't be enough. So pleading guilty is dumping his plate in the garbage then? and considering how out of sight Bertuzzi was kept for months, your rock solid opinion of his disdain for accepting responsibility really is astounding. He took a plea bargain to save his own ass. He was out of the limelight because 1) there was no NHL and 2) he was a big pussy and stayed out of the public eye. Who kept Bertuzzi from being on TV, or God forbid, going by the hospital to see Moore? He did. 2 things should come from behind -- a male dog and an overbearing cellmate. Web Spiner, some day that will be on my tombstone.

posted by wfrazerjr at 06:09 PM on August 17

Are you dating wfrazerjr there web spiner? Or just coming to the aid of a friend - like the Superstar Todd Bertuzzi when he stepped into Scott Parker when Worrell was trying to maime Jovanovski "Bertuzzi jumped onto the ice to try and help out teammate Ed Jovanovski, who was being beaten by the Avalanche's Scott Parker." . . . or when he gave Steve Moore back some of his own? . . . there has been bad blood for years between these teams - you and yours cute spitting and mocking me for grammer and spelling means nothing and the underlining factors remain. Us Canuck fans know all the underlining factors 'CAUSE WE WATCHED EVERY GAME THAT LEAD UP TO THE SUSPENSION. Period. End of story - it is you guys that "came to the party late" and only watched half the show - the most violent part of it - granted - but half the show indeeed . . . GAME ON!!! and kissssssss to wfrazerjr and web spiner - PS - what the hell is a web spiner? do you mean web SPINNER?

posted by starkid at 06:37 PM on August 17

oops - the second part of that was supposed to say Parker again . . . before my friends hone in on that - and only that - part of my post . . . attacking persons instead of thoughts and opinions seems to be a real focal point here . . .

posted by starkid at 06:41 PM on August 17

Top Web Results for "spiner" ADVERTISEMENT No entry found for spiner. Did you mean spin er? Suggestions: spin er spin-er spinier spinner spine spurner spinae supine spinet spin spanner spawner spinney Spane Spyne spina spiny spyne Spined seiner spinel spines Opiner Spicer Spider spider spiker Spinny spinny spino- spine's spines' No entry was found in the dictionary. Would you like to search the Web for spiner? For better results, try our search tips.

posted by starkid at 06:43 PM on August 17

"Make no mistake about it, what Parker did was wrong. He deliberately attacked Jovanovski, but Bertuzzi is one of the most important Canucks. They cannot afford to lose the energy and scoring that Bertuzzi brings to the ice." quote from a sports page back then . . .

posted by starkid at 06:47 PM on August 17

I don't understand how it could, since the two leagues are in no way linked. The NHL issued the punishment, so why would anyone else's games factor into the length of that suspension? Because of the lock-out, and because other NHL players partook in European Leagues. Bertuzzi is an NHL player, but wasn't allowed to partake in European Leagues. He took a plea bargain to save his own ass. He was out of the limelight because 1) there was no NHL and 2) he was a big pussy and stayed out of the public eye. Who kept Bertuzzi from being on TV, or God forbid, going by the hospital to see Moore? He did. fraze, so you want him in jail because he got good legal advice, and owned up to his actions (one year's probation plus 80 hours of community service)? Bertuzzi attempted to contact Moore 10 times according to his agent. He has also remained silent since three days after incident in March, 2004. In Bertuzzi's words, "There were a few factors that went into my decision to stay silent, mostly due to legal issues," Bertuzzi said in his statement. "I wanted to stay in the background out of respect for Steve and his family, and for the NHL." Just to pile on, Colorado captain Joe Sakic indicated "It's time to move on." (both quotes in above link)

posted by garfield at 06:57 PM on August 17

Bottom line is that Bert stated he wanted to change his image both off and on the ice forward looking. Nothing can change what happened. Some obviously believe he got off light. Others believe he deserves to get a 'second chance'. I believe he has been punished for the results of the action - and not the action itself that, in itself, is not something a player should be suspended for life (or 20+ games for that matter). Anyway, the underlining Av/Nuck fued has been fueled for years - that's what happens when a previously inferior team (ala Canucks) begin challenging the divisional powerhouse for first place. Attack my spelling, attack my grammer, take each word in the quote Todd gave and analyze it like some kinda philosophical genius - the bottom line is you folks are never going to reason with his actions and I will never condemn him for life. GO CANUCKS GO!!!

posted by starkid at 07:20 PM on August 17

not worth a new thread, but any thoughts on the new Team Canada kit? I dunno. Sure, the jerseys provide a 15.1% reduction in drag and the whole kit is 43% lighter but it seems at least 75% less classic. WHAT is up with the stripes on the sleeves and socks?

posted by gspm at 08:59 PM on August 17

But don't make the true fans suffer just because you don't want to try to talk to Little Jonny or whatever How am I making true fans suffer? I'm just explaining why I don't pack up the whole family for hockey games. it's a sick world. Do you tell your children they can't watch the news? Or COPS? These are laugh-out-loud questions. Of course I don't let me kids watch COPS. The news isn't an issue, because they'd rather do homework than watch it.

posted by rcade at 09:57 PM on August 17

Garf: fraze, so you want him in jail because he got good legal advice, and owned up to his actions (one year's probation plus 80 hours of community service)? Bertuzzi attempted to contact Moore 10 times according to his agent. He has also remained silent since three days after incident in March, 2004. In Bertuzzi's words, "There were a few factors that went into my decision to stay silent, mostly due to legal issues," Bertuzzi said in his statement. "I wanted to stay in the background out of respect for Steve and his family, and for the NHL." When I was a kid, I got nearly the identical sentence from the authorities in Western Mass. 1 year probation, 64 hours community service. My crime: stealing golf carts and racing them at night. Sorry for being a dick, but Bert's sentence doesn't match the crime.

posted by Samsonov14 at 10:08 PM on August 17

Bert's sentence doesn't match the crime. - AGAIN - its not his 'crime' cause players in the NHL punch each other - and this is cause for a 5 min penalty - it's the result of the action that is being punished - Moore's cracked vertabrae . . . sorry you got nailed by your State troopers for stealing a golf cart . . .

posted by starkid at 10:46 PM on August 17

Are you dating wfrazerjr there web spiner? Or just coming to the aid of a friend Top Web Results for "spiner" ADVERTISEMENT No entry found for spiner. Did you mean spin er? Suggestions: spin er spin-er spinier spinner spine spurner spinae supine spinet spin spanner spawner spinney Spane Spyne spina spiny spyne Spined seiner spinel spines Opiner Spicer Spider spider spiker Spinny spinny spino- spine's spines' No entry was found in the dictionary. Would you like to search the Web for spiner? For better results, try our search tips. posted by starkid at 6:43 PM CST on August 17 and regarding "see that your case has already been made with better grammar and fewer capital letters " - when you cant win a debate, attack the debater . . . cmon! - if you are trying to come accross as some kind of intellectual, you ae in the wrong scene bro . . . posted by starkid at 10:39 AM CST on August hmmm...are you doing exactly what you accused others of doing? Man seriously. if im "dating another man" on this site because i agree with something he said.You must be dam near half way up bertussy's ass and 6 months pregnant by him. i mean, not only are you 2 dating(based on your defense of him)you seem like this thread has made you visit every emotiom a human can possibibly feel(when he/she is in a love).I dont think i'll let you draw me into one of these personal wars that seem to be so popular on this site. But i will say that i have never seen such raw emotion(in defending a favortie player/lover) on here. You actually seem like you're going to cry if someone doesnt like your Todd or agree with you.My only problem with what he did was like i have already stated.He did it from behind. that makes him a pussy in my book period. None of the true warriors of the league would have done it in that fashion.even lindros when in philly(after a dirty hit)crossed checked a ranger defensemen in his mouth with his stick(removing several teeth). cheap and dirty yes,but came at him HEAD ON. The guy missed a few games and was back the next week.just like moore would have been had the "attack" on him been from the front.but hey, you seem to be defending things from behind. You're obvioulsy a big fan of "prison rules".Even when it comes to "dating".To each his own. Just one more thing.Please stop talking like bertussy is say a forsberg or gretzky or iginla type player.I have already agreeed he is good. But let him come to philly and try that western conference sneak up behind (mcsorley) type pussy shit on hatcher/primeau/forsberg/brashear/ or any other braodstreeter for that matter.If any of the previously mentioned players had hit naslund we wouldnt be having this disagreement.(cause bertootsie isnt sneaking up on anyone that might woop his ass)Your making yourself look bad. I'd quit while i was "behind".

posted by Web_Spiner at 12:52 AM on August 18

Top Web Results for "spiner" ADVERTISEMENT No entry found for spiner. Did you mean spin er? Suggestions: spin er spin-er spinier spinner spine spurner spinae supine spinet spin spanner spawner spinney Spane Spyne spina spiny spyne Spined seiner spinel spines Opiner Spicer Spider spider spiker Spinny spinny spino- spine's spines' No entry was found in the dictionary. Would you like to search the Web for spiner? For better results, try our search tips. posted by starkid at 6:43 PM CST on August 17 Im posting this again so someone who works here can see A. how much room it takes up B.there is nothing about the actuall topic in this post C. is there some criteria that a post has to meet? Dont get me wrong, i'm all for defending yourself and saying what you want.However some line has to be drawn to keep the integrity of the thread and the topic intact.Or it just becomes a "i know you are but what am i" situation that fewer and fewer people want to be a apart of. I think a post like this would be fine if he furthered the discussion along with more on the topic. Just my opinion...-new guy

posted by Web_Spiner at 01:06 AM on August 18

Im posting this again so someone who works here can see A. how much room it takes up Three times as much space as it did before you reposted it twice. You're welcome. BTW, if you have a complaint with another member's conduct, the appropriate thing to do is to contact the admins, as explained on the new user page.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 06:49 AM on August 18

Sorry for being a dick, but Bert's sentence doesn't match the crime. Different states, Different standards. B&E can get you probation, or sent to juvenile work camp, depending on the locale. No dickness, its just relative to the jurisidickshion.

posted by garfield at 08:25 AM on August 18

i'm done with this argument, so how about those highlights?!!!

posted by garfield at 08:26 AM on August 18

WHAT is up with the stripes on the sleeves and socks? To attract more female viewers? Kidding aside, I wonder if this is what we can expect from the new NHL kits.

posted by garfield at 08:47 AM on August 18

web spiner . . . you were attacking my spelling - I attacked the spelling in your 'handle' . . . that was the significance of the dictionary entry . . . cheers! have a great day!

posted by starkid at 09:06 AM on August 18

PS - I DO love Bertuzzi!

posted by starkid at 09:07 AM on August 18

I wish that day had never happened," he said, pausing to regain his composure. He seemed genuine in wishing Moore a full recovery and appeared on the verge of tears when he thanked his family and friends for the support they showed him over the last 17 months. There were also flashes of his sometimes prickly personality when asked if the incident will change the way he plays the game. "I'm going to come back and play hard every night," said the 30-year-old Sudbury, Ont., native. "I'm coming back who I was. I'm not going to change. I've become successful doing what I do best, playing hard every night with a chip on my shoulder. I heard a lot of stuff about people thinking I'm going to come back soft. That's not who I am." Bertuzzi still can't explain why he stalked Moore down the ice, punched him on the back of the head, then fell on top of him on the ice. "I've had a lot of sleepless nights trying to think of things," he said. "But you know what, it happened. I can't go back and change what happened. The only thing I can do is come back even stronger, a better person off the ice and a better person on the ice." GO CANUCKS GO!!

posted by starkid at 11:36 AM on August 18

Dont get me wrong, i'm all for defending yourself and saying what you want.However some line has to be drawn to keep the integrity of the thread and the topic intact.Or it just becomes a "i know you are but what am i" situation that fewer and fewer people want to be a apart of. Im posting this again so someone who works here can see A. how much room it takes up B.there is nothing about the actuall topic in this post C. is there some criteria that a post has to meet? SOOOO you subscribe to the "I'm telling on you!" mentality then? :)

posted by starkid at 12:58 PM on August 18

4 in a row....funny...anyone here know the record of posts without a response?this should be a category for one of those awards you guys are talking about in the locker room.How many posts in a row by the same person(attempting to intice a response).

posted by Web_Spiner at 08:15 PM on August 18

lmao what I read: "guys . . . hey . . . guys . . . lookat this fella" . . . sad . . .

posted by starkid at 11:03 PM on August 18

How can we get this guy away from this thread. wait i got it. hey starkid..there is a sneak preview of "you got served" on showtime2. that should keep him busy for a few hours anyway.

posted by Web_Spiner at 03:57 AM on August 19

lmao - you callin' that wit there spiner? - notice no one is coming to your support here? You haven't noticed they no longer care? You read my 'bottom line'? I tried to imply there that both sides had valid points, but neither will change their 'minds'. The rest obviously knew I was trying to end the bickering and have not continued the talk like yourself. I do not think it is me that is continuing this petty 'scrap', but you - and you are looking foolish, foolish, foolish! Did the web reference get your goat? Settle down there LASSIE!

posted by starkid at 09:04 AM on August 19

What's that? Timmy's trapped down the well? Take us to him, girl!

posted by The_Black_Hand at 10:55 AM on August 19

The rest obviously knew I was trying to end the bickering and have not continued the talk like yourself I just want to know how i "have not continued the talk"? And further more how did you continue not the talk bicker? You said that i said you would not have talk bicker words stuff words blah i know you are but what am i sticks and stones na na na na na you cant get me i have some ice cream and you cant have none im faster than you cause i have new sneakers hit me no you hit me first move your hand no my hand was here first no mine was no it wasnt yes it was why i outta some people kids. dad? what? what comes after 4 in counting?oh a wise guy, here look at this, you mean this?(bam)no this(poke)what about this(slap)... pinky???concerning your last post in this thread... How is it suppose to help me "try to take over the world"? -Brain

posted by Web_Spiner at 03:42 AM on August 20

SPAZ! SPAZ! SPAZ! SPAZ! LMAO . . . .

posted by starkid at 11:30 AM on August 20

Fool! . . . . . let it die alread! You drew first blood! Never point out someone elses errors when you're all over the board with your own. you ae in the wrong scene bro apparently wfrazerjr thinks he is IN a spelling and grammer test What do the insizide of a speallin and gramor test look like? posted by Web_Spiner at 4:48 PM CST on August 17

posted by starkid at 11:35 AM on August 20

Okay, you two, get a room.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 11:52 AM on August 20

No kidding . . . sorry lil brown . . . but thanks for the topic

posted by starkid at 12:40 PM on August 20

Okay, now I'm ready to resurrect this whole argument with garf ... or not.

posted by wfrazerjr at 01:04 PM on August 20

now is the time to type "lmao".. i just wonder how many times you reread it trying to make sense of it......"lmao" I bet you cant "not" respond to this

posted by Web_Spiner at 03:36 PM on August 20

man! you got me! . . . how clever! - double negatives and everything . . . jeebus! you sure is smart! . . . LMAO . . . brother, you should have given up a LONG time ago . . . you got NOTHING . . .

posted by starkid at 04:56 PM on August 20

Do you two think that you could possibly take a minute out of your little feud to read the posting guidelines for this site? This stupid game of "I know you are, but what am I?" is really more suited to email, or Pee-Wee's Playhouse. Give it a rest, children.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 05:26 PM on August 20

<---just read the posting guidelines for the site!(took me a minute to find the ! key) "LMAO!" Even though none of this is funny at all! Kid you shouldnt put so much stock into this shit!You'll live longer!I mean you said "lmao"six times in the past 4 posts and you used the ! key 12 times in the past 6. Relax! None of this is that important!I must admit i was just posting to keep you going but now im kind of worried!Now respond 1 more time(so you can think you won some kind of wit battle)and use this key ! a few more times and that will be the end of it. And you will win(what? i have no idea). For your future asshole battles, you shouldnt post so soon after the "other asshole". It makes you look "eager to be one". Good luck, i know you'll do well.

posted by Web_Spiner at 04:42 AM on August 21

That was the most intelligent post you've posted in weeks. Here is the post you request. Thanks for the kind consoling words and advise. Golly, you really got me going. You kidder you. Good luck to you too my friend.

posted by starkid at 10:26 AM on August 21

thank you

posted by Web_Spiner at 10:07 AM on August 23

case closed

posted by garfield at 12:44 PM on August 24

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