04/17/24
October 11, 2003
Pedro Martinez beat up Don Zimmer,: Roger Clemens beat Martinez, and the Yankees lead the ALCS 2-1.
posted by kirkaracha to baseball at 06:55 PM - 91 comments
I didn't see the brawl as it happened, but I just saw the replay. You're right usfbull, that's nauseating.
posted by dusted at 06:03 PM on October 11, 2003
The whole game sucked all the way through. Zimmer was charging and attacking.
posted by jerseygirl at 06:38 PM on October 11, 2003
zimmer is 72 with a metal plate in head. i'm sure pedro could've defended himself without grabbing him by the head and him throwing to the ground.
posted by goddam at 07:04 PM on October 11, 2003
Well, Zimmer had it coming- he's a doddering old fool, no better now than when he was a gerbil; he charged Martinez, and while a man of slight build, Pedro is a top pitcher in his prime. If anyone should have gotten thrown to the ground, though, it would be Tim McCarver, Mr. Unbiased; he would not shut up about that encounter, which was all Zimmer's fault, the entire damn game. He even blamed the 9th inning altercation in the bullpen on Pedro, somehow. Now, I'm more interested in the fact that some yahoo thought it a good idea to rush the Yankees bullpen in the 9th; I hear it was a Red Sox groundskeeper? If the players want to play silly games of machismo that's one thing, but let's keep the audience out of it. That said, it was only after the eruptions that Pedro pitched like he should have pitched the whole damn game; the Red Sox could have won this, but Pedro did not have his A game for the first 3 innings. By the time he got his heart into it, it was too late, and the Sox were forced to play catch up against an equally fired up, but composed, future Hall of Famer. This entire game was played out in the first 4 innings; the rest was a formality of foregone conclusions. Had Pedro been fired up from the beginning, the Yankees would have been shut out. The only consolation in this loss, as a Sox fan, is that this team is where it is precisely because it hasn't been Pedro, Nomar, Manny, and 22 stooges; it would fit in with this season if Burkett went lights out tomorrow, like Wakefield did in Game 1. I just couldn't stomach a 4-1 Yankees win like in '99; we'd never hear the end of it. And I'd *really* hate the thought of a Cubs- Yankees series, where the fucking Yankees would even have a chance to knock the dreams of both the Cubs and the Sox off in the same season. If the Sox can't make it, I'm obviously rooting for the Cubs, but more than anything I'm rooting for anyone but the $160m Yankees to get pasted by somebody.
posted by hincandenza at 07:06 PM on October 11, 2003
F that. You charge, you pay the price. Pedro's 5'8" and MAYBE 150lbs. Zimmer should be embarassed. The elderly do not get a free pass.
posted by usfbull at 07:08 PM on October 11, 2003
posted by therev at 07:38 PM on October 11, 2003
Oh, and I agree with jerseygirl, he was charging, what else did he think was going to happen?
posted by therev at 07:41 PM on October 11, 2003
He made contact with him didn't he? It looked like Zim was going after the right arm/shoulder area with some sort of karate chop. Sorry, I don't care if you're 72, 42 or 12, if your charging me with arms raised and attacking, if I can get you down, you're going down. Don't start scraps with the players if you can't handle them scrapping back, especially the pitchers. And really. Someone actually finds uses for the little band aids in the box. If Jerry Narron had charged Roger Clemens and Clemens dropped Narron like a sack of potato, everyone would be saying "What the hell was Narron doing out there charging the starting pitcher?" and "Clemens has a right to defend himself" Especially that McCarver ass kisser. Just go get a job at the YES network already. No wonder the Mets canned you, fool. What was even more stunning (like this game couldn't get more surreal?), the grounds/security guy that I always see at the park (his head isn't normally shaved down like that) attacked someone in the Yankee pen. They initially said it was a fan, and I quickly remarked "that doesn't look like a fan. He's got the groundskeeper navy polo and the khakis on" and sure enough, not a fan. That was my personal Great Play of the Game. From what I've seen of this guy before, he's usually pretty level headed (albeit a little too stern with the crowds and takes himself a bit too seriously), I am eager to find out what Nelson (or whomever) said to get him fired up like that. He walked into a picture or two I have from the park, I'll have to see if I can find them. Even if we won, it would have felt like we lost. That was a rough game, I feel like I need a nap or a drink. Ok, maybe several drinks followed by sleeping in all morning tomorrow. "This 4th inning of the Red Sox Yankees Game is brought to you by Absolut, because now's a good time to start drinking"
posted by jerseygirl at 07:45 PM on October 11, 2003
What happened to the Sox all being on the same page? One game does not make a series but I don't see the Yankees losing two more at home.
posted by billsaysthis at 07:49 PM on October 11, 2003
Wait, sorry, just realized that if the Sox take both remaining Fenway games, they only need one at YS. Where's my eraser, had it around here somewhere...
posted by billsaysthis at 07:49 PM on October 11, 2003
Pedro Martinez: 5'11, 180lbs And if you believe that . . . Zimmer is a beautiful potato head.
posted by yerfatma at 09:00 PM on October 11, 2003
And if you believe that . . . Zimmer is a beautiful potato head. See, that's something I've been hearing since he pitched in Montreal; he's much smaller than his stats. Albeit that I've never stood next to him, but are all these statisticians wrong all of the time? I can't believe they have been wrong year after year about something like this.
posted by therev at 09:11 PM on October 11, 2003
Weird game. Williamson claimed Nelson instigated the fight with the groundskeeper (WEEI, post-game) but it seems pretty clear that the groundskeeper was being a dork.
posted by Bryant at 09:34 PM on October 11, 2003
Hm- there are database problems with SpoFi; the timestamp on comments is sometimes incorrect; I'm on the west coast, and my comment was the first in response to this thread when I posted it... now, it's the fifth, and 3 of the comments are magically posted before the initial FPP was! Currently, it's 8:52p PST, 10:52 CST.
posted by hincandenza at 11:05 PM on October 11, 2003
Pretty much this game was spolied by all these hyjinx, and now I don't care who wins the ALCS. Just as long as the Cubs win the World Series! GO CUBS!
posted by jasonbondshow at 11:25 PM on October 11, 2003
Peeedro messed up, you don't throw at a batter with two guys in scoring position, if Garcia had been a little quicker the ball would have missed him and the yankees would have had an easy run. If Peeedro wants to be considered a big game pitcher then he needs to act like one. Zimm took a swipe at Peeedro and Peeedro brushed him away, Zimm shouldn't be taking swipes at players anyway.
posted by jbou at 12:04 AM on October 12, 2003
there are database problems with SpoFi
I moved some comments over from a different thread, so the times are probably correct.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:16 AM on October 12, 2003
but it seems pretty clear that the groundskeeper was being a dork. Not with the cleat marks on his back and arms, I don't think so. As the story unfolds, looks like Nelson and Garcia got some 'splaining to do with the Boston Police.
posted by jerseygirl at 12:34 AM on October 12, 2003
Yup, lets blame the victims here. I intensely and equally dislike both the sox and the yankees, so I should be unbiased. But Pedro, if you can't step out of the way of a 72 year old man and stay out of a fight without sending a fella with two artificial knees to the turf, well, you're just pathetic. Also, whatever that old man could have laid on you, you would have deserved for 1: Headhunting and 2: Threatening the Yankee bench by telling them "I hit you in the head" (I read lips). Manny, I love you like a slow-witted brother, but that pitch was nowhere near your nappy melon. If you were going to charge Clemens, you should have done it as soon as you stepped in the batters box, rather than make that pathetic attempt to look wronged. Yankees bullpen, if you can't control yourselves when someone taunts you, maybe we should bring your mommies to chaperone you. And sox and yankee fans, you all stink like yesterday's fish if you think anybody involved with that crap is worth defending. Quit your apologetics and see that game for what it was, a pathetic, sad display that makes playoff baseball look no better than hooligan-ridden soccer. Geez.
posted by avogadro at 02:39 AM on October 12, 2003
Yeah! Soccer riots in the ALCS! that'd be awesome. Thin the herds as it were. Theyd could play the rest of the series at neutral stadium, and have free for all no holds barred ticket sales. World could do with a few (or more) less Yankees and BoSox fans. And what WAS Zimmer thinking? A cut on his nose is probably the best possible outcome of him running into a bench clearing brawl and trying to land a punch on a professional athlete. He had to have plenty of time running in to rethink his course of action. Though if Pedro did the one hand on the forehead while Zimmer was swinging but couldn't reach bit, that would have been priceless. Yes he's old and frail, but more than Pedro should not have shoved him down, he should have been nowhere near harm's way. The whole bullpen/groundskeeper thing...who cares. Couple of scrubs got into it with the hired help. Ultimately, my take on all of this would be Go Cubbies!
posted by pivo at 07:09 AM on October 12, 2003
As an afterthought...get rid of this "one-warning-then-ejected" nonsense and, better yet, lose the DH as well and these things will sort themselves out. Old-time hockey baseball!
posted by pivo at 07:19 AM on October 12, 2003
Errr, so these are "soccer riots" at baseball are they? Strange. Seemed to me they were baseball riots.
posted by squealy at 07:54 AM on October 12, 2003
Zimmer seemed to instigate the fight, but Martinez didn't have to feed the guy a dirt sandwich. That's a hilarious incident as long as Zimmer's OK. The thing I don't get about that encounter is how all of those Yankees watched Martinez bounce their coach off the grass and didn't respond.
posted by rcade at 08:48 AM on October 12, 2003
Regarding the game itself, Martinez relinquishes any claim to the title of "big game pitcher" by losing his cool in the most important game of his pro career. I think that game decides the series, and Martinez showed with his head-hunting and finger-pointing that he wasn't up to the challenge.
posted by rcade at 08:50 AM on October 12, 2003
Almost the best game ever. Too bad Ty Cobb wasn't still around. Really, Martinez could have really hurt Zimmer. He did Zimmer a favor by going easy on him.
posted by jasonspaceman at 11:13 AM on October 12, 2003
Martinez didn't have to feed the guy a dirt sandwich if you can't step out of the way of a 72 year old man and stay out of a fight without sending a fella with two artificial knees to the turf, well, you're just pathetic i'm sure pedro could've defended himself without grabbing him by the head and him throwing to the ground. I'd be curious to know what the alternative options for Pedro were? You have an enraged person attacking you? Step out of his way you say? Then what? He's still attacking you? Pedro only had two options. 1. Throw him to the ground. 2. Run away. My point is Zimmer was irate and he was going to keep fighting until Pedro did something. Considering how quickly things are happening it's ridiculous to expect Pedro to come up with the perfect non-violent way of disarming Zimmer. Is it unfortunate that an old man got thrown on the ground? Yes. Was Pedro out of line or malicious in throwing him down? No.
posted by Mike McD at 12:36 PM on October 12, 2003
My Yankee fan but objective opinion (long reply pasted from another board cause I'm on a slow modem till tomorrow): I think Pedro deserves a large fine and small suspension but not for the Zimmer thing. In fact I don't much fault him for that. He clearly just lightly shoved, then backed away. And Zimmer did attack. It was sort of a wussy slap attack, but he should not have gone any farther than getting in his face and yelling (which would be understandable, considering his past and being hit in the head). So Zim started that one and was out of line. You can really read Pedro's facial expressions too and as soon as it happened he was like "oh, shit". It was a heat of the moment decision and he didn't really attack or even shove hard,he just shoved aside and backpedalled. Now I have always HATED Pedro too, as you have seen here in the past, so you'd think I'd be the first to jump all over him. The thing I had a problem with was first of all throwing at Garcia but mostly inciting a riot by knowingly and deliberately following that up by threatening to hit Posada in the head. That was the big problem right there. Clemens did nothing wrong but get riled up just like the other 49 players in the game. He was mostly concerned that he got a warning for being on the bench, and did not want to lose the ability to pitch inside. After the game he said what he and the ump talked about, and he said he agreed with what he said and that theump told him he could still pitch inside, and things were fine. Untill jackass Manny came along, looking for a fight. He was ducking on every pitch (Harold Reynolds is an idiot but he was actually right to point that out) and looking for an excuse to charge. A high pitch that was OVER THE PLATE scared him and he went nuts. What a moron. What happened after that was the only thing that could have... everyone was already on edge and came out. I personally think that this whole game was the most entertaining I have ever seen. Marquee pitching matchup, great effort by Clemens and good (but poor for him) effort out of Pedro, with some key Yankee hits. To be honest I think baseball has wussed up a bit in the past 30 years... the days of batters getting knocked down for digging in and showing up pitchers were fun. The Yankees-Sox rivalry and brawls in the 70s were as intense as it gets. We're getting back to that. I think that's a good thing. Make no mistake, this entire thing was Pedro's fault. I think some have overreacted to the Zimmer thing (He said he didn't mean it but hasn't apologized, I don't expect that but it would be the big man thing to do) - actually what surprised me is that Susan Waldman (the idiot biased homer on the YES network who has no business being on TV. Sort of like McCarver. Actually I noticed that I can't stand any of the 8 people employed by Fox for these 2 series, but that'sa topic for another thread.) was livid about the game but actually was objective and sort of excused Pedro for the Zim thing. Anyway, he started it, he incited it, and by the rules he deserves to be punished. But personally I thought it was pretty cool. I was on the edge of my seat and calling up friends, Yankees and Sox fans alike. The thing in the bullpen hasn't been fully revealed and probably won't be. Nelson said he asked the guy nicely at first, but was vague about what happened after that. He probably started getting mad, the guy probably started talking shit, and Nelson probably grabbed at the rag, and it escalated, that's my best guess. That guy had no business being there and if you ask me he deserved to get stomped... but I think maybe Nelson and Garcia ought to be fined for that too. I don't really think a groundskeeper would actually take a shot at them first. But then again, this is boston... :) Here's hoping tonight's game is nice and intense again. This is what rivalries are all about.
posted by Bernreuther at 01:08 PM on October 12, 2003
looks like Nelson and Garcia got some 'splaining to do with the Boston Police. Like those homers will give Yankee players a fair shake.<snark>
posted by billsaysthis at 01:51 PM on October 12, 2003
if you can't step out of the way of a 72 year old man and stay out of a fight without sending a fella with two artificial knees to the turf, well, you're just pathetic Because when emotions are high and a brawl is going on and you're suddenly charged at you have time to think about the person's medical history, right? Please. 72 or 102 don't attack people. He's lucky all he got was pushed to the ground. Even that put him on a stretcher which more than anything else points to the temporary idiocy Zimmer displayed. The thing I don't get about that encounter is how all of those Yankees watched Martinez bounce their coach off the grass and didn't respond. Perhaps they saw the part where martinez got charged and decided the best thing to do was get an obvously out of control zimmer off the field. Regarding the game itself, Martinez relinquishes any claim to the title of "big game pitcher" by losing his cool in the most important game of his pro career. It's one game. Hopefully people will judge his 'big game' performance over an entire career. Pedro has won big games before. Clemens for years couldn't win the big game (and for years has been also known as a head-hunter). Pedro showed an out of control temper. He's still the best pitcher I've ever seen. And this man is an idiot.
posted by justgary at 03:33 PM on October 12, 2003
Manny Pedro Zim and Garcia have been rightfully fined by mlb so there you go. And this man is an idiot. I hope politicians stay out of this. Bloomberg isn't helping the cause by piping up, he's just throwing gas on the flames for the fans really and fanning what could already be an explosive situation at Yankee Stadium. To say what he said and then finish it with "You just cannot assault people, even if it's on a baseball field." makes me think he hasn't even seen the actual clip where Zim is charging in attack mode. (now available from the first base line) The thing in the bullpen hasn't been fully revealed and probably won't be. i think it will. Its a high publicity incident and I think the public is going to demand the information from the BPD, thus the media is going to be pushing the BPD for it. everyone wants the scoop first. That guy had no business being there and if you ask me he deserved to get stomped... ugh sorry Bern, no. he was assigned to the yankee pen to keep their pitching mounds groomed for the game. From my experience (being nosy and snapping pictures) in the right field grandstand and the bleachers, there was probably at least one other park employee in there, a few standing at the entrance, one or two standing around the roof of the pens and we know there were at least a couple cops there. We don't know all the details yet, but if all he did was root root root for the home team by double fist pumping and waving a towel and cheering, then he didn't deserve to be attacked and cleated and kicked in the fucking mouth.
posted by jerseygirl at 04:37 PM on October 12, 2003
Manny Pedro Zim and Garcia have been rightfully fined by mlb so there you go. Wow, will the fines even match their playoff bonuses? That's a huge penalty, isn't it? If MLB was serious about punishment the players, at least, would have been suspended for a game or two. And justgary, I wouldn't be so quick to call a man who built a fortune worth over $4 BILLION from nothing last I looked an idiot.
posted by billsaysthis at 04:56 PM on October 12, 2003
Good lord ... step away from the board for a day or two and look what happens. 1) Zimmer got what he deserved. I don't give a crap how feeble you are or how much you look like Uncle Fester, you come charging out of the dugout, you take your chances. 2) The Red Sox employee in the bullpen needs to have enough sense to keep his mouth shut. Let's see ... I work for the Sox, I'm in the Yankees' bullpen, and I'm going to wave a towel and fistpump and think the guys around me aren't going to get pissed? You're an dolt, although being cleated repeatedly might have been a bit much. 3) Mayor Bloomberg needs to go sit on a silver spoon, the prick. Could he sound a little more like a whiny pussy? It's not assault if someone's attacking you, idiot.
posted by wfrazerjr at 05:32 PM on October 12, 2003
My point is Zimmer was irate and he was going to keep fighting until Pedro did something. Don Zimmer has about as much chance of hurting an athlete in his prime as Dusty Baker's kid. The incident appeared to be Zimmer's fault, but that doesn't excuse Martinez for bouncing him like a basketball. C'mon -- Zimmer is a roly-poly 72-year-old guy fresh off of knee replacement surgery. Surely there was a better way to sidestep his crazed bull rush than to do what Martinez did.
posted by rcade at 05:37 PM on October 12, 2003
I've gotta give credit to the Red Sox - I didn't think anything could make me root for the Yankees, but the behavior of Pedro with his headhunting and taunting antics and Ramirez with his hotheaded b.s. did it. But then Jeff Nelson and Karim "I just don't know how my hand got cut" Garcia went and made me hate the Yankees again. So...go Cubs!
posted by pitchblende at 05:50 PM on October 12, 2003
Away from computer until 10 minutes ago: My take, as a Blue Jay fan watching two teams he hates play each other: Start: I'm cheering for the Red Sox because I want the apocalypse to occur when they face the Cubs. But just barely cheering because I wouldn't mind seeing Clemens go out on a big note. Even though he's a jerk. Then: Pedro dings Garcia: Deliberate. The man has WAY too much control to do something like that by "accident". Therefore, I'm hoping it bites him in the ass that inning. Then: Garcia acts like a petulant child and yells at Pedro. No problem, I can understand the "heat of the moment" thing. My feelings are still leaning towards the Yankees, but just barely. Then: Garcia goes WAY over the base to do a really dirty double-leg takeout of the second baseman and then continues to jaw at Pedro. Now I'm cheering for the Red Sox because Garcia is an idiot. Then: Pedro does the "I'll hit you in the head." pantomime. Totally unnecessary, and it's just going to cause more problems. Now I'm sitting in a neutral corner. Then: Zimmer and others start jawing at Pedro. No real damage, but I guess if you get taunted you can't just shut up and take it out on him the next inning. Still in neutral. Then: Manny "ducks" away from a pitch that's over the dead centre of the plate, and then starts jawing at Clemens, dropping f-bombs all over the place. Now I'm cheering for the Yankees because Manny overreacted and Clemens' mojo for being a headhunter psyched him out. Then: Clemens drops his own f-bombs and walks towards Manny. No need for that. If he just stood there and smirked, he'd have looked much cooler. Still leaning towards Yankee cheering, but not much would push me over. Then: Benches clear on both sides. Yawn. Kids will be kids. No change. Then: Zimmer runs at Pedro like a bull. What the fuck was he thinking? Pedro does the smart thing and olé, down goes Zimmer (with a little help from Pedro). BIG swing in feelings towards Red Sox as Zimmer is a complete moron for doing what he did, and Pedro showed restraint in just pushing/sidestepping him. His emotions could have made him do more (deck him with a punch) but he looked noticeably confused at why this doddering old fool attacked him. Then: McCarver won't shut the fuck up about the whole incident, acting like Martinez ran over to Zimmer and pushed HIM down. Heavy favour towards Red Sox now. Then: After everything settles down, Clemens strikes out Manny, who swings weakly. Still cheering for Red Sox, but kudos to Clemens for controlling his emotions and getting the job done. Then: Pedro pitches the next inning, throws something inside to Posada (who had initially been yelling at Pedro two innings before) and Posada doesn't even blink. He could have easily jawwed at Pedro but kept his cool. Still cheering for Red Sox, but just barely now. Sadly, I was forced to stop watching the game (!) after that inning and missed the whole bullpen brouhaha. So in the end, I'm cheering for the Red Sox, but just barely. The wife wanted to go out and see a movie tonight, but when I told her that those teams were playing again tonight, I think she understood why I wasn't going anywhere.
posted by grum@work at 06:20 PM on October 12, 2003
...and then the game is cancelled. D'oh!
posted by grum@work at 08:39 PM on October 12, 2003
Don Zimmer has about as much chance of hurting an athlete in his prime as Dusty Baker's kid. The incident appeared to be Zimmer's fault, but that doesn't excuse Martinez for bouncing him like a basketball. C'mon -- Zimmer is a roly-poly 72-year-old guy fresh off of knee replacement surgery. Surely there was a better way to sidestep his crazed bull rush than to do what Martinez did. Rcade, quick story. I live in Manhattan. I was on the subway a couple years ago. This older guy was cursing out is girlfriend very loudly. Whole train was feeling awkward. This junior high student gets on the train and bumps this guy with his backback. Boom, the old guys turns on this kid who was a bit smaller and starts picking a fight. Finally, I had seen enough so I told the guy to "shut up cause you're the a-hole on this train". Now I thought this would shut up this old guy because I was a lot bigger than him. Nope, just focused his attention on me. He challenged me to a fight, then followed me off the train. I didn't want to hurt this guy so I started running away and he start kicking me in the butt. On the third kick I realized the only way I was going to get this guy to stop was to knock him down, so I grabbed his leg and flipped him down. My point is, when you're dealing with guys who have totally lost their temper there's no reasoning with them, no sidestepping. You can either run or throw them down. If Pedro sidesteps Zimmer, Zim just turns and attacks him again. And IMO, MLB should have a draconian punishment for any coach who touches a player. What if Zimmer falls on Pedro's leg and hurts his knee? There's no way any coach should touch a player. I'd argue Zimmer should be suspended for at least a year if not more. Otherwise, you could see The Rock as third base coach.
posted by Mike McD at 09:20 PM on October 12, 2003
Running was the better idea. What if your old guy, or Zimmer, had dropped dead from being in a physical altercation with a much younger adult male? Sounds like a manslaughter conviction to me. I don't blame Martinez for the incident -- Zimmer provoked it, and the announcers on Fox were too busy slamming Martinez to notice. But still, giving the elderly a dirt sandwich is a bad idea of giant proportions.
posted by rcade at 10:17 PM on October 12, 2003
Wow, will the fines even match their playoff bonuses? That's a huge penalty, isn't it? Pedro - 50k Manny - 25k Garcia - 10k Zimmer - 5k
posted by jerseygirl at 10:42 PM on October 12, 2003
Sportscasters are speculating, based on information they have received that assault and battery charges to be filed against Nelson and Garcia on Tuesday in Roxbury Court.
posted by jerseygirl at 10:58 PM on October 12, 2003
I question whether that would ever get to trial and if so, if they could be convicted. Is there a bullpen cam we could get to see? I'd like to see it. I never much liked Nelson anyway (white trash feel about him) so I have no problem blaming him. But JG, I do think that employee probably did a bit more to provoke it than some fist waving. (Ooh. Chris Berman on sportscenter just said "I do know that the difference between Sox fans and cubs fans are that Sox fans expect their team to lose and Cubs fans hope their team wins." An exaggeration but somewhat true. I've always thought that there were many Sox fans out there that would get more pleasure out of beating the Yankees but losing the WS than actually winning the Series but having beaten the Twins, not the Yankees.)
posted by Bernreuther at 11:28 PM on October 12, 2003
I don't know why I always think of things right after I submit from preview... but Zimmer said he was embarassed at the press conference before choking up and leaving. He seems to be accepting responsibility for being an idiot. The replay shows Pedro deliberately grabbing his head on both sides and tossing. I still chalk that up to instinct/heat of the moment and don't blame him, especially given his reaction afterward though. Can't believe I'd defend Pedro...
posted by Bernreuther at 11:30 PM on October 12, 2003
But JG, I do think that employee probably did a bit more to provoke it than some fist waving that's fine. The thing is, you weren't there, I wasn't there and the two cops that were there, the ones filing the reports according to tv news, are saying it was an unprovoked attack.
posted by jerseygirl at 11:32 PM on October 12, 2003
the two cops that were there, the ones filing the reports according to tv news, are saying it was an unprovoked attack. As previously mentioned before, no doubt these fine gentlemen in blue couldn't possibly be overreacting or be overzealous? Remember when Winfield hit the seagull in Toronto with a thrown baseball (on a bounce) and killed it? Dumbass local cops charged him after the game with animal cruelty. I'm just saying...
posted by grum@work at 12:04 AM on October 13, 2003
And justgary, I wouldn't be so quick to call a man who built a fortune worth over $4 BILLION from nothing last I looked an idiot. Perhaps I should have said this man is 'acting like an idiot'. I really don't care what he's done in his personal life. He could be as intelligent as einstein for all I know. But first he comments on something he should have left alone and then shows complete ignorance on what actually happened. Typical politician jumping at a chance for the spotlight without checking his facts first.
posted by justgary at 02:10 AM on October 13, 2003
Um, folks, let's not forget that Boston's "Finest" were on the scene too, in fact, one of them immediately attended to Zimmer after Pedro body-slammed him, so it isn't as if Pedro was caught in a dark alley with a vengeful and pissed off Don Zimmer. He was surrounded by at least twenty teammates and cops, so the "well, he would have kept attacking and attacking Pedro until he finally killed him and ate his entrails" argument doesn't really fly. Putting things another way, if a nine-year-old kid got pissed off and came after you (by the way, after you threatened to throw a ball at said nine-year-old kid's friends), would you slam the kid to the ground? If you answer "yes" to that, then you have bigger problems than just being a Boston fan.
posted by avogadro at 04:08 AM on October 13, 2003
after Pedro body-slammed him Body slammed? We were obviously watching two different games. Putting things another way, if a nine-year-old kid got pissed off and came after you (by the way, after you threatened to throw a ball at said nine-year-old kid's friends), would you slam the kid to the ground? Bad analogy. Zimmer is a grown man, not a nine year old boy. He's an adult. I am amazed however at how everyone seems to treat Zimmer like he was 9. If I were a senior citizen I'd be offended. Zimmer, an adult, ran onto the field and attacked another adult and was thrown to the ground. And we're attacking Pedro.
posted by justgary at 06:06 AM on October 13, 2003
As previously mentioned before, no doubt these fine gentlemen in blue couldn't possibly be overreacting or be overzealous we'll see i guess. according to this morning's news report (which is basically regurgitating everything already been said) they interviewed the guy in the hospital, took statements, etc. I'd guess also that in the thousands of people sitting in the bleachers, there'd be some credible witnesses too, and I am sure they've tried that route too. there must be enough there to put some sort of criminal case together. i presume (hope) at some point today, if they serve any kind of summons or warrant, thesmokinggn.com will manage to grab it. i generally like to see these things for myself. i also expect that the media will have more info as well as the day progresses.
posted by jerseygirl at 06:40 AM on October 13, 2003
Err, to the "I read lips" comment above, you don't do it very well. Three different people (including myself) not watching the game together, all of them Red Sox fans (to be honest about it), saw Pedro say "use your head" and Posada respond with something along the lines of "I'll use my fucking head". Heat of the moment whatever: no one's going to openly threaten beaning someone on TV during the playoffs. Wouldn't the Yankees be complaining about all that in the paper? Or maybe they are. I've been trying to avoid the media coverage since McCarver nearly made me throw up. Anyonme suggesting Pedro should have waited until Zimmer was restrained or, better yet, ran away should think about what we'd be talking about today: how Pedro's out of the series 'cause Fatty McGee injured him or how everyone's saying he's a pussy who hides from responsibility after he hits someone.
posted by yerfatma at 06:53 AM on October 13, 2003
Um, folks, let's not forget that Boston's "Finest" were on the scene too, in fact, one of them immediately attended to Zimmer after Pedro body-slammed him The one attending to Zimmer, according to one of the late night local sports shows last night (SportsFinal), said that while Zimmer was on the ground he had (paraphrasing) the look of a manic in his eyes. He also said Zimmer was yelling "Let me up, let me up. I want to get that Pedro Martinez!" They were holding Zim down it would seem. Zim is old school, I would bet if he wasn't surrounded, he would have gotten up and went back for more. (naturally, if i find any links in regards to this today, i'll forward those along to SpoFi. Putting things another way, if a nine-year-old kid got pissed off and came after you (by the way, after you threatened to throw a ball at said nine-year-old kid's friends), would you slam the kid to the ground? Does the 9 year old kid weigh 300 pounds and want to punch and slap you about the arm, shoulder and head region? I understand the point you're trying to get at, but it's a totally different analogy than an adult attacking you.
posted by jerseygirl at 07:04 AM on October 13, 2003
Body slammed? We were obviously watching two different games. Let's see. Grab an old man by the head and throw him down. I'm sorry, I guess Pedro was just giving him a peck on the cheek, Boston-style. Err, to the "I read lips" comment above, you don't do it very well. Three different people (including myself) not watching the game together, all of them Red Sox fans (to be honest about it) Um, I worked with the hearing impaired, so I prolly have a bit more experience at lipreading than you, but at least you admited to some bias. Will you take Boston Globe columnist Dan Shaughnessy's word for it? Look, Beantown, I hate the Yankees utterly (Karim Garcia was waay, waay out of line for spiking Walker. It was obvious that that was more than a hard play. See too my comments on the Yankee 'pen), but I know what I saw, and I saw a very, very immature group of players on both team, led by Pedro (again, see the Shaughnessy article), none of whom are worth defending.
posted by avogadro at 07:07 AM on October 13, 2003
I caught the tail end of an overhead cam shot of the bullpen on outside the lines last night. Did anyone see this? It looked like Garcia never got into the fray cause a ton of people were already there. Course I had just flipped to that channel and missed most of it. I wonder if it was running the whole time and caught everything in action. I imagine it's likely that Nelson asked once, started yelling, tried to grab the towel, and it escalated from angry words to shoves to punches/spikes. hopefully they can find a camera shot that shows it all from the beginning.
posted by Bernreuther at 07:37 AM on October 13, 2003
yo!....everybody read this. very funny take on the whole series.
posted by oliver_crunk at 07:46 AM on October 13, 2003
Will you take Boston Globe columnist Dan Shaughnessy's word for it? I would not take Dan Shaughnessy's word that the sky was blue. It doesn't mean you're not right and I'm not wrong, just that he has more invested in the Sox losing than a Yankee beat writer. In the same paragraph he does state, "Pedro said a few words yesterday and claimed that gesture was actually him telling Posada that he'll remember Posada's angry words. [emphasis mine]" Feel free to completely ignore me. I'm fucking bitter here because we have a Yankee "fan" in the office. He's the prototype I can't stand: he could not name the starting rotation and has a Yankee hat he puts on top of his cube whenever the Yankees win but he hides it in a drawer when they lose. No offense to the millions of Yankee fans who are real baseball fans. You need to murder these people before they permanently ruin your name.
posted by yerfatma at 08:30 AM on October 13, 2003
if a nine-year-old kid got pissed off and came after you ... would you slam the kid to the ground? My opinion has clearly been effected by personal experience, but to anyone saying that there must have been some easy way for Pedro to disarm Zim, I would say unless you've actually been attacked by an irate, grown man it's not so easy in the heat of the moment to disarm a grown man. A nine-year old kid you can physically restrain. A grown man you cannot. (BTW, do you think if a nine-year old bat boy came after Pedro he would have thrown him down?) I don't have any affection for Pedro. I'm just telling you from experience, stopping a grown man who's attacking you ain't that easy. Pedro had 2 options. 1. He could have run. This would have been the mature option but I think a rather unreasonable expectation of Pedro. It's a professional baseball game, of course he's going to stand his ground. Can you really imagine Pedro running around the diamond being chased by Zimmer? 2. Throw him on the ground. Avogadro, since you think Pedro shouldn't have thrown Zimmer down, I think it's incumbent upon you to explain what Pedro should have done instead. I'm curious to hear your response.
posted by Mike McD at 08:49 AM on October 13, 2003
I'd like to see a show of hands of the number of people who can swear they could be in the middle of a brawl and a) recognize a senior citizen was charging them instead of a player, b) rationalize that he's old and "Geez, I'd better be nice to him," and c) Grab him and toss him by, rather than slugging the stupid bastard in the mouth. You know, if someone was going to be pissed about all this, perhaps it might be Zimmer, but I didn't hear him say a damn thing about Pedro's reaction. You know why? Because it was a goddamned fight, not a square dance. Zimmer, as I said earlier, took his chances, and he's lucky he didn't come away with a fat lip or worse for his troubles. As for suspending a coach, Mike, I think you are absolutely right. $5,000 for attempting to harm the opposing team pitcher is ridiculous, 72-year-old fool or not. Zimmer should be out for at least the remainder of this series.
posted by wfrazerjr at 09:06 AM on October 13, 2003
Feel free to completely ignore me. Well, I won't ignore you, since you are most certainly entitled to your takes. Sorry about the so-called fan. It's a hell of a lot easier to be a bandwagon jumper than to follow a team, win or lose (which I know as a loyal Tribe fan). Avogadro, since you think Pedro shouldn't have thrown Zimmer down, I think it's incumbent upon you to explain what Pedro should have done instead. I'm curious to hear your response... I'm just telling you from experience, stopping a grown man who's attacking you ain't that easy. Well, easiest thing for Pedro to do (and he almost did) was to step to the side without grabbing Zimmer's head (a hard thing to do resist with a melon as large as Zim's, true). Pedro should have much better lateral movement than Zim, whose momentum was carrying him tothe Boston dugout. That easily buys a few seconds, by which time, his teammates and police can restrain Zim. (Which might not be necessary since Zim would prolly fall on his ass on his own.) Now, while this is based on my own work experience with non-violent intervention (sometimes dealing with very large, violent folks with mental illnesses, again, not much unlike Zimmer) , the main thing is not to get involved in a fracas to begin with, which Pedro evidently cannot do. And this really is all I have to say about it. What a damn mess, and again, a black eye for baseball. (upon preview: yes, Zimmer should have gotten a bigger fine and a suspension. No need for him to go out picking a fight. Oh, and my hand is up, since Zim can't exactly sneak his flabby ass across the diamond without Pedro knowing, and I have been in very similar situations.)
posted by avogadro at 09:12 AM on October 13, 2003
He was surrounded by at least twenty teammates and cops, so the "well, he would have kept attacking and attacking Pedro until he finally killed him and ate his entrails" argument doesn't really fly. You say that now, but has anyone seen Chuck Knoblauch after the game where he tried to kill Zimmer with a foul ball?
posted by rcade at 09:29 AM on October 13, 2003
What a damn mess, and again, a black eye for baseball. is it really? while there's no doubt that the antics of saturday's game are not good baseball, i tend to think the events of this post season are ushering in the NBA-ification of MLB. and while the slap on the wrists are coming down in the form of petty fines that go to your favorite local charity you can bet the people at FOX and maybe even up to the commisioners office are all laughing to the bank. good for baseball....no, not really. but you can bet your ass that the everybody will tune tonight to see what all the hub-bub is all about. all of this is amplified by the pundits in the media screaming about how the game used to be.....and then offering the excuse that 'this is just the way the game is now' when asked why? i'll watch baseball if they cart out scabs and strike for 5 years....there's nothing much out there that will change my mind about that. the point is.....while saturday's game was bad baseball....it was a hell of a lot more exciting then the lame ass regular season we had, which was about as exciting as those MLB commercial spots that have shown up in the post season making a guy like sosa out to be an angel. as far as the whole pedro thing.....zimmer was out of line. way out of line. but there's nothing more class-less then the red sox organization lining up behind some bonehead groundskeeper who can't keep to himself and do his job. was the yankee bullpen out of line? you bet.....but i bet it wasn't too hard for that groundskeeper to stay out of the way of the players.....after all that's what he gets paid to do....er maybe not...after reading wasn't some of the red sox suits have been saying.
posted by oliver_crunk at 09:32 AM on October 13, 2003
Okay, I'll agree that either sidestepping Zim or running away would have been ideal responses. But I think that sidestepping is much easier said than done in those circumstances. Overall, I think that Pedro acted pretty reasonable, not ideally, but reasonable for the situation.
posted by Mike McD at 09:56 AM on October 13, 2003
All I know is that if I see someone lumbering towards me like a zombie with a brain craving, I'm going to try to get that brain-eating head as far from my head as possible, and that means he's going down to the ground. Um, folks, let's not forget that Boston's "Finest" were on the scene too, in fact, one of them immediately attended to Zimmer after Pedro body-slammed him Was this before or after the pile driver? I largely agree with Pedro's reaction, but that figure-four leglock was just insulting. Anyway, I (a Pirates fan) saw Pedro point to his head and say "I hit you here," but lip reading isn't exactly a science. Well, maybe it is, I guess I don't know.
posted by dirigibleman at 10:16 AM on October 13, 2003
the replay has a bosock (back to camera) looking horrified at pedro, immediately after the throw-down, #34 or something, and though he doesn't rush over to Zims, he seems concerned for him. ...and despite the embarassing result, kudos to Zim for 'cowboying up' and doing what a Yankee should've done. I was surprised Pedro didn't get a warning, or clear the dugouts, at the time of the head pointing incident. fucking disgraceful.
posted by garfield at 10:33 AM on October 13, 2003
Sox fan's perspective. Far better than I could do.
posted by yerfatma at 11:04 AM on October 13, 2003
Pedro should have been tossed as soon as he pointed to his head. The pitch he threw at Garcia was downright ugly. It was filled with ill intent and at head level. Doing that once is bad enough. Openly threatening to do it again would get most players (in most situations) tossed, fined and suspended. I understand that you don't want to ruin the game or the series by removing the best players, but you have to draw the line when a person is so openly diregarding rules and conventions and lives and livings are at stake. I have no problem with what Zim did or Pedro's reaction to that. Fine on both sides. That said, it's important to remember that this was all brought on by Pedro and Pedro alone. He's pissed off because he's getting hit, he has a base to give and he fires at a guys face. Classy move from a classy guy, I guess. For many years I had a great deal of respect for Pedro, even if I didn't like him as a player. Now, any ounce of that is gone. I wouldn't want him on my team (ask the 2nd baseman what happens when you throw at someone's head) and I hope someday that foul fool has to face a equally classless pitcher. The DH sucks. The DH sucks. The DH sucks. I was rooting for the Red Sox in this series. Moreso, I was rooting for a Game 7. Now, I hope they lose the series 4-1. Let the Cubs beat the Yanks.
posted by 86 at 11:07 AM on October 13, 2003
Yerfatma, I stopped reading that article at the line... "The ball wasn't at his head." Um, yes it was. The catcher sets up low and away. The ball comes off of Pedro's hand and goes directly at Garcia's face, perhaps slightly behind it. He ducks. Lucky him. Later, the author of the piece says it was thrown behind his head offering that as an excuse. Talk to a pitcher... any pitcher... and they'll tell you that if you want to hit a guy in the head, you throw behind his head because people will naturally try to back away from it. See Roger hitting Mike Piazza for a nice example. Now we can look at the Pedro/Garcia affair for another nice example. That was the absolute perfect pitch... if you want to hit someone in the head. It's an apology piece that takes the Yankess and their players to task for everything from mis-speaking someone's name to their April batting averages and somehow forgives Pedro for throwing at a guy's head... because his emotions were high. Meanwhile, "high emotions" aren't enough of a reason for Garcia to come to the aide of his teammates in the bullpen, when he has no idea what was going on in there. Be pissed about the public reaction to the Pedro/Zim thing or even to the bullpen dally-hoo... but pretend it wasn't Martinez that started every bit of the ugliness with the worst offense of the day, and you'll receive no pity from me. You take it anyway you want it, but I play no favorites in Red Sox - Yanks and I know who came out looking better... and why. Go Cubs (or Marlins).
posted by 86 at 11:25 AM on October 13, 2003
he has a base to give and he fires at a guys face. But it was cool when Don Drysdale used to do it, right? Everybody laughs and talks about how if you got up 3-0 on Drysdale you better decide where you wanna get hit (the fact Drysdale had to bat doesn't balance things out-- it didn't stop him in the least). Save the head-hunting difference: (as suggested in the link I posted) if Pedro's control is good enough to put the ball wherever he wants, why did it wind up behind Garcia? Either his control isn't good enough to aim for someone's head or he put it behind him on purpose. I fully expected them to walk or plunk Garcia. Throwing the ball as high as Pedro did was bad juju. Manny's over-reaction was ridiculous (though much appreciated in my living room). No question. But the idea that all fault rests with the Red Sox is hard to swallow (like a cat's penis). If Pedro was openly avowing to hit people in the head, he was way out of line and should be heavily fined and suspended right now. I've yet to see an assertion by anyone directly involved that he said these things. Don't really care either way 'cause the Sox have lost all momentum.
posted by yerfatma at 11:28 AM on October 13, 2003
But the idea that all fault rests with the Red Sox is hard to swallow (like a cat's penis). I don't understand ... nor do I want to.
posted by wfrazerjr at 11:54 AM on October 13, 2003
Page 2 did a nice job today. Its good to laugh again.
posted by jerseygirl at 11:59 AM on October 13, 2003
if Pedro's control is good enough to put the ball wherever he wants, why did it wind up behind Garcia? It didn't. It wound up on Garcia's back. If Garcia doesn't move, its smacks his right jaw. He ducked and turned, so it hit his shoulder blade. If Pedro was openly avowing to hit people in the head, he was way out of line and should be heavily fined and suspended right now. IF?! Please put forth any plausible explanation of what those hand gestures could've meant besides "I'm gonna get you sucka!"
posted by garfield at 12:05 PM on October 13, 2003
Garfield nailed it. Pedro has great control and that pitch was the absolute perfect pitch if you're headhunting. Pedro said to Posada, "I'ma hit you right here" and pointed to his temple. Posada told him to do it. And it was never cool. Not with Drysdale, not with Clemens and not with Pedro. It's classless and dangerous.
posted by 86 at 12:28 PM on October 13, 2003
Please put forth any plausible explanation of what those hand gestures could've meant besides "I'm gonna get you sucka!" "Use your head," i.e., why would I purposely hit some nobody in the playoffs? (All you asked for was "plausible".) Cats' penii are barbed, at least according to popular legend. I'm sure Google would have more info.
posted by yerfatma at 12:40 PM on October 13, 2003
Main Entry: plau·si·ble Pronunciation: 'plo-z&-b&l Function: adjective Etymology: Latin plausibilis worthy of applause, from plausus, past participle of plaudere Date: 1565 1 : superficially fair, reasonable, or valuable but often specious 2 : superficially pleasing or persuasive 3 : appearing worthy of belief
posted by garfield at 12:55 PM on October 13, 2003
$50k fine for Pedro is unlikely to surpass his playoff share and certainly will not if they make the WS; the other fines, being lower... I don't see why Garcia should be tossed--perhaps I still don't understand precisely what happened--but the other three deserve at least one game suspensions and for Pedro, that would mean no second start in this series. Too bad if it takes away the team's best players, you need to shut this crap down immediately because otherwise players will just laugh and do it again. And baseball is not hockey or soccer.
posted by billsaysthis at 12:57 PM on October 13, 2003
I don't see why Garcia should be tossed-- He spiked Walker unnecessarily. There's an from Trot Nixon saying Garcia was trying to start something with Kim too (Nixon put himself between the two players), during that 4th inning melee. He was fired up and acted out, which seems to be the common response out of just about everyone involved. I guess I'm just stumped here, bill. How much of a financial fine will be satisfactory or is it not even the fine anyway? These guys are gazillionaires, no matter what you take away from them financially, it's going to be pocket change -- It would be like a regular joe like you or I getting a $3 late fee at Blockbuster. Chances are, the team is going to pay the fines for all of these guys anyway.
posted by jerseygirl at 01:09 PM on October 13, 2003
Suspending Pedro Martinez hands the ALCS to the Yankees. That would be a PR disaster for the league much worse than the minor black eye it's taking for coddling him.
posted by rcade at 01:14 PM on October 13, 2003
I'd like to add that I think Pedro was headhunting. Intentionally trying to injure someone like that is super dirty. MLB shouldn't let this garbage pass, in any way, shape or form. Fines in the 3.0M dollar range would make people think twice. Six month suspensions would do the trick as well. Baseball is a game ... injuring people should not be part of it. I wouldn't mind seeing Pedro lose his salary for the year for the headhunting stunt.
posted by Mike McD at 01:19 PM on October 13, 2003
I just saw what happened...zimmer is a complete jackass.
posted by StarFucker at 01:57 PM on October 13, 2003
Pedro Speaks (...main highlights follow) Martinez also said the gestures he made to New York catcher Jorge Posada had been grossly misinterpreted. Fox cameras repeatedly showed Martinez pointing to his head while shouting at Posada in the visitor's dugout. While some interpreted this as a threat that he would be throwing at Posada's head next, Martinez said he was merely telling the catcher: "I remember you. I remember what you're saying." Asked to relay what Posada has told him, Martinez refused. "I don't really want to explain all the bad words," Martinez said. "I'm not at that level. If you want to know what he said, go ask him."
posted by YukonGold at 02:09 PM on October 13, 2003
Fines in the 3.0M dollar range Keep dreaming. Even the Yankee dugout would unite with the rest of the Players' Association to kibosh that. Also, garfield, I feel my response qualifies under the "worthy of applause" exemption your citation notes. It's all a matter of where I say it.
posted by yerfatma at 02:14 PM on October 13, 2003
I'm not dreaming. I don't expect MLB to hand out million dollar fines. I'm just pointing out that if the penalty is steep enough players can control themselves.
posted by Mike McD at 02:33 PM on October 13, 2003
yerfatma, along those lines I suppose your response is 'superficially pleasing' too. my bad.
posted by garfield at 02:42 PM on October 13, 2003
I think it qualifies for #1 as well, given "often specious". I just hit for the cycle. Mike McD, I know what you're saying. I just don't think it's a viable solution.
posted by yerfatma at 03:26 PM on October 13, 2003
Jerseygirl, you are getting my point precisely--there's no way any fine MLB could actually impose that would affect these guys, only a suspension in a meaningful game would do that. Which is why I think they should be suspended, Garcia too (I just meant in my previous comment that I didn't know enough about what Garcia did to have an opinion on him).
posted by billsaysthis at 03:50 PM on October 13, 2003
This just in, former LPGA pro Jan Stephenson says that "the Dominicans are ruining baseball." More to follow.
posted by usfbull at 03:58 PM on October 13, 2003
Did everyone see the press conference where Zimmer apologized for embarrassing EVERYONE involved (NY, Boston, fans, family, friends, baseball) for what he did? He knows he was in the wrong, and he was man enough to apologize for what he did. He didn't accuse Pedro of anything wrong and he didn't say he was provoked and he didn't say that anyone else is to blame. He accepted responsibility for his actions. I think that should pretty much put a close to all the "Zimmer was mistreated" talk.
posted by grum@work at 04:37 PM on October 13, 2003
... He accepted responsibility for his actions, unlike Pedro who now seems to be making up scenarios even more laughable than yerfatma. I could read his lips. I know what he said and it had nothing to do with remembering Posada. He needs to apologize, particularly to Garcia. And look, I think Garcia should offer one of his own to Walker, but his action came no where near comparing to Pedro's. A nasty slide of retribution is not an unprovoked head-hunting beam-ball, though it can cause serious injury. I hate to beat this dead horse, but it pissed me off and I can't let go. Maybe some new action in tonight's game will free my mind. And the next time someone posts something about cat cock, I encourage all members to let it slide. I would have died a happier man not knowing all that.
posted by 86 at 05:31 PM on October 13, 2003
Pedro will never apologize, even if he knows he's wrong. It works to his advantage if every batter thinks there's a small chance they might be getting hit. And I am dreading Fox's coverage tonight. I'm almost thinking about throwing the game on mute and giving the radio a shot at calling the action.
posted by usfbull at 07:13 PM on October 13, 2003
Let's see. Grab an old man by the head and throw him down. I'm sorry, I guess Pedro was just giving him a peck on the cheek, Boston-style. You can word it any way you like. Saying pedro body-slammed Zimmer is stetching what actually happened. He basically pushed him to the ground imho. I'm disappointed in pedro, but not long ago clemens was throwing broken bats at hitters. Things change over night. Maybe pedro will have a chance to redeem himself. That would mean a longer series also, which I think we all want to see.
posted by justgary at 09:18 PM on October 13, 2003
Tim McCarver is the Jessica Simpson of the sports announcing world.
posted by jerseygirl at 09:43 PM on October 13, 2003
And the next time someone posts something about cat cock, I encourage all members to let it slide. I would have died a happier man not knowing all that. Hey, reporters gotta know.
posted by wfrazerjr at 10:20 PM on October 13, 2003
I just opened my first Yeungling after seeing Pedro dump Don Zimmer. Jesus H, I thought it was Wells going after him and almost threw up after I saw Zimmers mug on the ground.