11/21/24
August 14, 2006
posted by ballen7065 to football at 06:30 PM - 67 comments
Awesome story. Cool that she won the best offensive lineman award at the camps a couple times. Wonder how far she can go?
posted by vito90 at 07:02 PM on August 14, 2006
I bet she would be a great center. Centers can't be too tall, otherwise they're not as effective. At 300 pounds, she could be a rock on the o-line by the time she's 18-19.
posted by Kendall at 07:06 PM on August 14, 2006
I wonder if any NCAA program would consider her--the ones who give scholarships, which is why I left off NAIA. Would be totally cool.
posted by billsaysthis at 09:11 PM on August 14, 2006
If she can't play football during her college years, she can play Women's Professional Football in the NWFA league. They have a team in Columbus called the Comets. They had a great year this season. They were a 5-3 wildcard team entering the playoffs and made it to the third round before losing to, the now current NWFA Champions, DC Divas. I am sure the Columbus Comets would love to have her on their team.
posted by krex at 09:18 PM on August 14, 2006
I could see a Divison II (or III at least) school giving her a shot if she's that good. The publicity couldn't hurt. And then the NWFA means she can keep going after that. That's cool, krex. I didn't know there was an actual league. I thought it was just a few barstormingish teams.
posted by chicobangs at 09:25 PM on August 14, 2006
While I think that realistically she will find It increasingly difficult to compete with male athletes as she advances to higher levels(the taller and stronger males will eventually assert their physical advantage) you have to admire this gal's determination. Besides, who is going to have the guts to tell this female warrior that she CAN'T play?
posted by judgedread at 09:31 PM on August 14, 2006
Holley, 16...5-foot-9, 300-pound girl Am I the only one that finds that a bit disturbing? That can't be healthy for at her age. I don't care if it's a combination of muscle and fat, I just don't think it's healthy for a 16-year old girl to be 300-pounds. Just the same as I don't think it's healthy for a 16-year old girl to be 75 pounds. Heck, I don't think it's healthy for a 5'9" 16-year old boy to be 300lbs, so don't think of me as some sort of sexist in this concern.
posted by grum@work at 09:37 PM on August 14, 2006
Men are stronger and have that advantage over her and she would have to be VERY confident she can compete with them. Even so there is no reason she can't compete at a higher level. There are actually three women's professional leagues. The NWFA is the largest with 35 teams. These women can really play. You can't compare them to the NFL for many reasons. I always say if you are a TRUE FAN of football you can watch it at any level. I love the game....from the kids who play PeeWee to the Pros of the NFL and all those in between. Check out to see if there is a team in your area and give them some support.
posted by krex at 09:42 PM on August 14, 2006
Am I the only one that finds that a bit disturbing? No- definately not. But you have to figure that male athletes her age (linemen) are just as big, if not bigger than her. Lineman are just a small percentage of Americas obesity problem (especially student athletes).
posted by Kendall at 09:45 PM on August 14, 2006
If the girl is going to be a starter at the guard position, that means she can get those 300lbs moving! I just want to add that not all the women who play football on the O-line or D-line are 300lbs. Don't get me wrong there are some big girls on these teams!
posted by krex at 09:52 PM on August 14, 2006
judgedread, no one has told the, uh, "gal" she couldn't play. No one. But no one's expecting her to be drafted by the Bengals in the first round of the '11 draft neither.
posted by chicobangs at 09:56 PM on August 14, 2006
This chick rocks. By the looks of her picture, I think the 300 lbs is an exaggeration for intimidation. Kind of like the extra inches college ball players grow around the time the team program book comes out.
posted by cardsfan at 10:11 PM on August 14, 2006
where's the picture of the girl?
posted by MNJ1193 at 10:16 PM on August 14, 2006
I haven't squat lifted since I was in high school, but the fact that she can go at 525, well, she's got my respect whether she ever plays another down again.
posted by forrestv at 11:53 PM on August 14, 2006
All of that can not be good for her back, hips, and knees.
posted by jojomfd1 at 01:57 AM on August 15, 2006
Anyone else getting a 404? "If you’ve reached this page by selecting a bookmark that worked previously, it’s likely the file moved to a new location because of our recent redesign"
posted by Fence at 03:35 AM on August 15, 2006
That must have been pretty damn recent!
posted by Drood at 03:37 AM on August 15, 2006
Yeah, I can't get the article, either.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 05:09 AM on August 15, 2006
Does anyone have the name and we can search for the article?
posted by Fence at 05:52 AM on August 15, 2006
Holley Mangold, if its the young lady who's brother plays for the Jets. Article now seems to be missing from Fox but that's where I found the name and a Yahoo search turned up several other related articles
posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 06:28 AM on August 15, 2006
If the girl is going to be a starter at the guard position, that means she can get those 300lbs moving! No, if she were a pro or even in college maybe she could, but you do not have to be as fast at the high school level. She may be fast for the size she is, but I doubt she can "get those 300lbs moving."
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 06:31 AM on August 15, 2006
Mangold's sister following in his footsteps Not sure if this is the article you all started with -- did she have a beard in the other picture? (kidding)
posted by hb74147 at 08:45 AM on August 15, 2006
Thanks. Do you have a women's version of American Football? The Yahoo article makes it sound like it is totally unheard of for women to play.
posted by Fence at 09:08 AM on August 15, 2006
In addition to flouride, there now appears to be HGH in the watertable. 300 lb 16 year-old female atheletes? This can't be a good thing.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:45 AM on August 15, 2006
Yeah, she's a big kid all right.
posted by mr_crash_davis at 09:53 AM on August 15, 2006
Disturbing is the correct word. The good news is since they play on Friday nights, she will have something to do, as I am sure dating isn't one of them. I guess ther is more than one to get felt up by football team if your not a cheerleader. Seriously, to me she just looks fat, and out of shape. A medical accident waiting to happen. At the high school level, 300 pounds and a desire to play pretty much guarantees a line position. Lets see where she goes from there. Nowhere Oh and by the way her brother with the Jets is a big dude but far from fat.
posted by Atheist at 11:58 AM on August 15, 2006
...the ones who give scholarships, which is why I left off NAIA. ... Just to clear it up - The NAIA gives scholarships. Division III NCAA does not.
posted by BlueCarp at 12:14 PM on August 15, 2006
Hey Atheist, that's an awful lot of sweeping value judgment crammed into three lines. Hey, here's a novel idea: maybe she actually likes playing football, and isn't in it to "get felt up by football team" at all. And there are enough 300-pound high school linemen in Bovine America (all of whom--funny thing, this--are busy on Friday nights, but they're guys, so hey, that's somehow different) that quite frankly, given that she knows what it takes to be both big and in shape from the trained pro in the family, I'd worry way more about the rest of the guys without NFL siblings who don't know what to watch out for over this kid. Just for comparison, I'd like to see the other guys on her line. Ten bucks says she's in better shape than at least one or two of them. Because, given the level of sexism and closed-mindedness in this country, she has to be.
posted by chicobangs at 12:44 PM on August 15, 2006
Seriously, to me she just looks fat, and out of shape Never been a male OL that looked like that. Thank your favorite diety they wear pads to hide the fact their asses all look like 300 pounds of chewed bubble gum.
posted by yerfatma at 12:53 PM on August 15, 2006
I certainly realize my previous post was a little sarcastic and intended to be. But, in all seriousness, when a man is 5'9" tall and weighs 300 pounds it isn't good or healthy. If you add in the fact that men have higher degree of muscle mass for their respective height and weight, a 300 pound woman is more fat than a 300 pound man of the same height. It probably equavilant to a man being 5'9" and weighing 360 or more. Why would anybody condone this? Recently on this filter their was an article about the early age of death of large NFL players. Why would this girls family not try to stop an activity that is only encouraging her to be seriously obese? Especailly since there is really no career in her future. You call that love? I call it time for an intervention. By her own admission she likes to hit people. Gee, a girl who likes to hit people and over eats to the point of weighing 300 plus pound even while getting a lot of excercise, can you say serious personallity disorder? Somebody call a shrink not just for her but for all that think this is a good thing. Ill bet a 600 pounder at center would be effective just by taking up that much space in the middle. That doesn't make it good for the player, the team or football. For those who think this is sexist, your wrong. If she were 6' 4" tall and weighed 220 or even 240 and was in reasonable shape playing tight end, I'd be the first to cheer her on. If we were talking about a teenage boy with the same lack of muscle, at 5'9" and over 300 pounds. I would think it just as disgusting, and be calling for the school to put him on a diet not encourage him to have a heart attack or stroke playing football.
posted by Atheist at 02:36 PM on August 15, 2006
Ah, there are always a few special cases. As long as she's happy (and healthy - which I suppose is a possibility) I see no issue. However, perhaps the broader (get it?) picture is that there is a place in the world for the 300 lb teenager - and that place is the football stadium where we can encourage obesity without a shred of irony.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:39 PM on August 15, 2006
Aside from her weight... Why is it a personality disorder for a girl to want to hit things? And further - why does the combination of her weight and wanting to hit things equal personality disorder?
posted by jerseygirl at 02:43 PM on August 15, 2006
Jerseygirl - are you kidding? "Aside from her weight and wanting to hit things" Does that equal well adjusted to you? I've played football, its a great game but I never associated it with a desire to hit people. I realize I am just making an assumption here, but being a female who likes to hit people and over eats to the point of weighing 300+ pounds, does sort of suggest anger issues. I don't know about Jersey, but the girls here in California don't usually aspire to hit people and weigh 300. Thankfully. I guess thats why the write songs about California Girls, not 300 lb Ohio girls.
posted by Atheist at 03:26 PM on August 15, 2006
By her own admission she likes to hit people. Gee, a girl who likes to hit people and over eats to the point of weighing 300 plus pound even while getting a lot of excercise, can you say serious personallity disorder? I could, but "armchair pop psychologist" rolls so much more trippingly off the tongue. Jerseygirl - are you kidding? "Aside from her weight and wanting to hit things" You're placing in quotes something that jg didn't say. Bad, bad, bad. I've played football, its a great game but I never associated it with a desire to hit people. And would you say that makes you typical or atypical of your all-male football-playing cohorts? being a female who likes to hit people and over eats to the point of weighing 300+ pounds, does sort of suggest anger issues. jg asked it once, I'll ask it again: why does being a "female"[sic] make this particularly suggestive of "anger issues" or a "personality disorder"? I don't know about Jersey, but the girls here in California don't usually aspire to hit people and weigh 300. Thankfully. I guess thats why the write songs about California Girls, not 300 lb Ohio girls. So why don't you tell us the rest of the catalog of what "girls" and "females" are supposed to feel, do, want, say, and look like?
posted by lil_brown_bat at 04:03 PM on August 15, 2006
"Aside from her weight and wanting to hit things" You took two different points/quotes, conveniently mangled them and didn't address what I actually wrote. Good work. And further, I wasn't even arguing her weight was an health issue. Anyone with half a brain would think that probably isn't contributive to a longterm healthy lifestyle. There are many athletes in the same boat weight wise. I've played football, its a great game but I never associated it with a desire to hit people. Really? Of course... That's just you, and I'm sure you've noticed just how in the minority your opinions and desires tend to be at times. I don't know about Jersey, Neither do I. I'm not even from New Jersey. Been there once. Good Springsteen/Tom Waits song though. I really wish you wouldn't try to buffer your comments with stuff like "I'm not sexist" or "You guys will wrongly think I am sexist" when your history here speaks volumes to the contrary. If one thing is crystal, it's that you have a very defined, very clear role about what a woman should be, what she should/shouldn't say, how she should act, what her role in society is and how she should look and anything that deviates from that is wrong or mislead. If that's not sexist, well I'm not quite sure what is.
posted by jerseygirl at 04:04 PM on August 15, 2006
Why would this girls family not try to stop an activity that is only encouraging her to be seriously obese? Its a little late to turn back now, dont ya think? She is already dangerously overweight, and has developed a love for the game. I dont think that too many people would want to tell her she couldn't play football anymore either- she would probably knock their a** out. But, I do see your point that she is extremely obese. Obesity is a serious issue that will unfortunately lead to other health problems down the line.
posted by Kendall at 04:04 PM on August 15, 2006
At the same time however, I dont see where she has any mental disorder. Being fat/ overweight/ obese dosent suggest anything about your mental state. Wanting to hit things is a common thing in society. Take right now for example. LBB and JG probably want to smack the shit out of you, but they dont have any mental problems, or "personality disorders". : )
posted by Kendall at 04:09 PM on August 15, 2006
I've played football, its a great game but I never associated it with a desire to hit people. Consider this may have impeded your progress. I played lacrosse almost entirely because it let me hit people. So did many of my teammates. They've even got a category for these things now, "contact sports".
posted by yerfatma at 04:15 PM on August 15, 2006
Extremely obese is right. Her brother who was drafted by the Jets is supportive but doesn't feel girls have a place in footbal. He by the way is 299 pound at 6'4" tall and not obese. In the article linked in the Mr_Crash_Davis post above. Holly states "I love to hit people, so I wanted to play football." Her brothers views are summed up by this from the article: Nick has struggled coming to grips with his sister’s choice of sports. He is supportive, going to her games when he can and giving her occasional pointers. But he admits to being "weirded out" by the whole thing. "It’s weird because I don’t know how I’d deal with it if (a girl) was on my team," (Don't worry Nick, she won't make the Jets) And it seems Holly agrees that girls shouldn't play football when she says: " He (thinks) girls shouldn’t play football," she said. "And I sort of agree with him — most girls shouldn’t. "I’ll say it, I’m a very different person. I like hitting, most girls don’t. Most girls just won’t be able to handle it." So it seems the most sexist comments come from the girl herself and her brother the football player. Go figure. Why do women get all defensive when a guy just tells it like it is about women trying to compete against men. Michelle Wie gets all this plublicity for playing against professional men when in fact she hasn't even won a pro tournment against the women yet. I think there are great women athletes, and have no problem with whatever they want to do. But if women want to be taken seriously they need to be judged as athletes on a level playing field and take the same criticism as male atheletes do. So as a footbal player judged on a scale blind to sex, Holly Mangold is, too short, too slow, too fat and unhealthy to be anything more than a curiosity, or a human interest article. Her own coach says she will have to get quicker to play high school varsity football. So if equality is really what women want, why are we even talking about an overweight, short, slow junior varsity highschool football player. BECAUSE SHE'S A GIRL!
posted by Atheist at 04:42 PM on August 15, 2006
So it seems the most sexist comments come from the girl herself and her brother the football player. Go figure. Not in this thread. So as a footbal [sic] player judged on a scale blind to sex, Holly Mangold is, too short, too slow, too fat and unhealthy to be anything more than a curiosity, or a human interest article. Maybe, wrong, wrong and wrong. The piece doesn't say what the heights of the other linemen on her team are; otherwise you're perfect! The piece starts off by saying she's holding up her position just fine on the O-line. So let's recap: she's the same weight as the other linemen, she can squat 525 (so there's obviously muscles in there somewhere), she can perform her duties on the line well enough that the opposing Defensive Linemen don't think of her as a weakness, and she's apparently healthy enough to play a strenuous position, and has ever since she was very young. Put the obesity argument down, Atheist. It doesn't retain water in this discussion. If you think girls playing contact sports is somehow unladylike, come out and say so. Don't couch it in bogus health concerns.
posted by chicobangs at 05:20 PM on August 15, 2006
I realize I am just making an assumption here, but being a female who likes to hit people and over eats to the point of weighing 300+ pounds, does sort of suggest anger issues. I would think that Ray Lewis, Brian Urlacher, Dwight Feeney, ect. all like to hit people, that's what they do. I'm sure most defensive players and offensive lineman like to. Does that mean they all have personality disorders/anger issues?
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 06:01 PM on August 15, 2006
They've even got a category for these things now,"contact sports". "Dancing is a contact sport, football is a hitting sport." - Vince Lombardi
posted by mjkredliner at 06:05 PM on August 15, 2006
Why do women get all defensive when a guy just tells it like it is about women trying to compete against men. Because if they listened to everyone who told them that women can't compete against men, you wouldn't have people like the 4-time Iditarod champion, or a jockey who has won over 3000 races, or a two-time Olympic dressage champion.
posted by grum@work at 06:13 PM on August 15, 2006
If that's "telling it like it is," then I've been changing calendars way too fast. By about sixty years. Also, her name is not "women." She just happens to be one. Get it straight.
posted by chicobangs at 06:26 PM on August 15, 2006
Because if they listened to everyone who told them that women can't compete against men, you wouldn't have people like the 4-time Iditarod champion, or a jockey who has won over 3000 races, or a two-time Olympic dressage champion. Excellent points Grum. Women can compete with men in nearly every aspect of sports. Looking at your examples, Im kinda suprised there arent mainly female horse jockeys- they're typically shorter and lighter, but then again, I dont know all that much about horse racing.
posted by Kendall at 06:46 PM on August 15, 2006
I've played football, it's a great game, but I never associated it with a desire to hit people. WTF? I gotta say Atheist, that you are probably lucky you never had to line up against Holly.... Can you say PANCAKE BLOCK?
posted by mjkredliner at 07:03 PM on August 15, 2006
I've played football, its a great game but I never associated it with a desire to hit people. Actually, we're talking about American football here. With helmets, and pads...and hitting. Lots and lots of hitting. I'm wondering who coached you in such a manner as you "never associated it (football) with a desire to hit people." I played linebacker and fullback for the better part of 15 years; it was my job to hit people! It is the fulcrum that moves the game, fer chrissake! What did you play, kicker? Punter? Wide reciever?
posted by The_Black_Hand at 07:06 PM on August 15, 2006
...Mascot? Cheerleader?
posted by chicobangs at 07:10 PM on August 15, 2006
Maybe he was the guy who ran over Adrian McPherson...
posted by Kendall at 07:21 PM on August 15, 2006
it was my job to hit people! Jobs are so much better when you truly love what you are doing, too, heh heh. Atheist, at least Holly's got the most important part of the game right, and that is "liking hitting people."
posted by mjkredliner at 07:37 PM on August 15, 2006
What did you play, kicker? Punter? Wide reciever? I bet all of the above want to hit people from time to time.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:26 PM on August 15, 2006
I didn't mean to dogpile on you, Atheist, (I gotta admit, you made me laugh, and you do make a point or two) but I just think if she wants to play football, then let her play. Remember she's just a kid, competing and playing, and who are we to shoot down her dreams? She may make a bunch of folks look foolish!
posted by mjkredliner at 10:08 PM on August 15, 2006
You guys all missed her quote. She said and I quote "I love to hit people so I decided to play football". So she was an overweight girl who loved to hit people so she decided to play football. Look if you box or play football hitting is part of the game. If you enjoy hitting people, so then you decide to become a boxer or football player, well that says something else personality wise. Sugar Ray Leonard was a great boxer and a kind and gentle person. Mike Tyson is what you get when you combine a great boxer with someone that truely enjoys hitting people. If you don't see the personality difference than what can I say. I would also say if you read the article I am referring to, her coach says she needs to improve in order to play varsity. I wish people would really listen instead of reacting. I would whole heartedly defend this girls right to play football if it makes her happy. My only issue is that women who play against men in athletic competittions, and I am not referring to sports like driving cars, riding horses or other sports where physical athletic ability is not what determines victory, get all kinds praise and press for mearly attempting the task not for being competitive. It is not equality when we say the men and women race the LA marathon and the overall winner is claimed to be a woman who received a 30 minute head start handicap over the men and finished the race 28 minutes slower than the best man. Billy Jean King beat a old man at tennis and claimed women could compete. Holly Mangold is a human interest story not a notable football story and that is my point. It says nothing about women being able to play football at a competitive level against men. Instead of everybody saying to this girl "isn't that wonderful" they should be trying to help her before she becomes 700 pounds, which frankly she is on the way to becoming if nobody steps in. Holly you go girl. But forgive me if I don't find it a good thing. I do hope you don't run into a future Ray Lewis, a real linebacker with the ability and the desire to hurt people on and I might add, off the field.
posted by Atheist at 09:51 AM on August 16, 2006
My only issue is that women who play against men in athletic competittions Well, after you have the sex change operation, you should feel perfectly free to not play against men. Deal? Meanwhile, go buy another axe, you've ground this one to a nub. You've said your say; you're just repeating yourself now. Holly you go girl. But forgive me if I don't find it a good thing. And there you have it. I just don't see how any woman or girl could help but be a super-achiever, with this sort of sincere, wholehearted, "you go girl" encouragement to spur them on.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 11:21 AM on August 16, 2006
Look if you box or play football hitting is part of the game. If you enjoy hitting people, so then you decide to become a boxer or football player, well that says something else personality wise. Give it up. The original comment was embarrasing to begin with. You trying to defend it with circular logic is going to give me the spins.
posted by yerfatma at 11:30 AM on August 16, 2006
Atheist, you really think Leonard didn't enjoy planting a haymaker on Duran, or anyone else for that matter? Another thing about "hitting sports" is, you must be able to receive as well as you give, and you'd best enjoy that, too, or you are in the wrong sport.
posted by mjkredliner at 11:45 AM on August 16, 2006
I am not referring to sports like driving cars, riding horses or other sports where physical athletic ability is not what determines victory, get all kinds praise and press for mearly attempting the task not for being competitive. Interesting that you left out the Iditarod Dog Sled Race champion I mentioned. I guess it's hard to easily dismiss a race that requires strength, endurance and mental strength that most "athletes" couldn't handle. Billy Jean King beat a old man at tennis and claimed women could compete. In actuality, Billie Jean King beat Riggs in an unfair game, as he had to play with doubles lines and she only had to play with regular singles lines. You're the only one who brings up this spectacle as a form of "female sports triumph", so refuting it as well is just weak.
posted by grum@work at 11:53 AM on August 16, 2006
We're hip to your game, sir.
posted by jerseygirl at 12:00 PM on August 16, 2006
Look as long as we're all in agreement that that rise in obesity and the growth of spandex as a fashionable choice was at the very least alarming and makes for a questionable cultural strategy.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 03:03 PM on August 16, 2006
Huh?
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 03:13 PM on August 16, 2006
She's stupid for being 300 pounds at her height. This thread is stupid for trying to make this a gender issue instead of a health one. Maybe someday we'll have a female player in the NFL, but I don't think so. At least as a lineman/linebacker/etc. I don't care how much she can lift, she'd be better as a lineman at a lower weight. If you really, *really* want to make it an issue, we can argue about whether a fat lineman is better than a more athletic but lighter one. imo, the NFL is pretty dumb for adopting rules that make players at unhealthy weight levels superior to healthier but thinner players that cannot generate the same force in the trenches. If you have to sacrifice your personal health in order to achieve extreme levels of strength, at what point are you no longer an athlete? Here's hoping Texas Tech football eventually overtakes the NFL.
posted by chmurray at 03:43 PM on August 16, 2006
This thread is stupid for trying to make this a gender issue instead of a health one. "This thread" didn't. One individual in this thread did. If you're going to be so very declarative about what is and isn't stupid, you should probably be a bit more careful with these details.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 06:29 PM on August 16, 2006
posted by The_Black_Hand at 05:34 AM on August 17, 2006
This thread is stupid for trying to make this a gender issue instead of a health one. "This thread" didn't. One individual in this thread did. If you're going to be so very declarative about what is and isn't stupid, you should probably be a bit more careful with these details. Sorry - but let's all be a little honest here. Of course this is a gender issue. The article wouldn't exist otherwise. 300 lb teenagers are not hard to find. 300 lb girls playing the line are. Time to jump off the ol' high horse guys. Huh? Fat people in spandex, dude. It's a scourge.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:13 AM on August 17, 2006
"This thread" didn't. One individual in this thread did. If you're going to be so very declarative about what is and isn't stupid, you should probably be a bit more careful with these details. Sorry - but let's all be a little honest here. Of course this is a gender issue. The article wouldn't exist otherwise. Weedy, there's a diff between saying "this article wouldn't have been written if the subject weren't a girl," and saying that "this thread" tried to create a "gender issue".
posted by lil_brown_bat at 02:53 PM on August 17, 2006
we went to take an evening walk about a mile from town I picked a stick up off the ground and beat that fair girl down she fell down on her bended knee for mercy she did cry oh Willy dear don't kill me here I'm unprepared to die she never spoke another word I only beat her more until the ground around us with all her blood did pour I took her by her golden curls and drug her 'round and 'round throwing her into the river that flows through Knoxville town
posted by MrFrisby at 03:50 PM on August 17, 2006
If she can hold her spot in the line, more power to her. She may be a little short at 5'9" to go to a Division I school, but with a starting NFL center as her brother and being 300 pounds at 16, I wouldn't be surprised if she wound up getting a college education somewhere out of this. Good on her.