11/21/24
July 23, 2006
Is Mac deserving?: Some thoughts regarding Mac's potential inclusion in the HOF.
posted by ballen7065 to baseball at 08:22 AM - 34 comments
Some toughts on Mark McGuire; first he was not a home run hitter come lately, like a Brady Anderson or Rapheal Palmero. McGuires rookie season in the big leagues he hit 49 home runs. That was the knock on him for years, could hit homers but not his weight. As for all that other stuff, itwas natural and legal. Hall of Fame I don't know about, but McGuire was a good guy no matter what that circus clown Conseco says. McGuire has a legacy that does not involve the big top, books, or Madonna, but production, respect, and compassion.
posted by mt3311 at 09:19 AM on July 23, 2006
“The steroids won’t enter into it,” said Ray Ratto of The San Francisco Chronicle. “The Hall of Fame isn’t a church. It’s the history of baseball, good and bad.” Bullshit, then why isn't Pete Rose even on the ballot? He should not be elected, or he should be elected after Pete Rose and Barry Bonds.
posted by sic at 09:28 AM on July 23, 2006
Ratto is a moron. Then again, by this point I'm pretty convinced most MVP and HOF voters are morons.
posted by tieguy at 09:39 AM on July 23, 2006
I'm not going to debate the legitimacy of Rose/McGwire/Bonds and the hall of fame. It's a bit of a tired subject, and my point of view has been well documented. I'm very happy to see a local reporter with a great comment: "Please spare me the drivel about McGwire’s performance before Congress. Seems to me that stonewalling congressmen is an accepted fact of life on Capitol Hill." - Jeff Blair, The Globe & Mail.
posted by grum@work at 10:00 AM on July 23, 2006
If the HOF were just about what a player did on the field than Pete Rose would be in it. He's not, therefore the HOF is not just about what a player did on the field. Does Big Mac deserve the HOF? For his accomplishments as a player I'd say yes. But that performance in front of Congress really did nothing but taint his numbers and his entire career as a player. The sad thing is that, if he'd told the truth about his alleged steroid use instead of the lame refusals to answer, there's no way he'd be considered. mt3311, Palmeiro didn't all of a sudden surge into hitting home runs. Look at his numbers, there's a pretty clear progression and then he stayed there for a good number of years. Unlike Brady Anderson who hit that 50 after never hitting more than 21 and then fell off the table and never broke 25 home runs again.
posted by fenriq at 10:25 AM on July 23, 2006
What's interesting to me is that the HOF vote on Mac is the one that will determine which direction the wind is blowing for the next generation of votes. If the voters don't let Mac in for substance abuse, then they probably won't let Bonds, Sosa, Palmeiro and others in. If they do let Mac in, then they likely will. My guess is that none of these guys will get in on the first ballot, but will get in eventually. Maybe the voters will collaborate and not vote them in until their final year of eligibility, as a sort of silent protest.
posted by vito90 at 11:43 AM on July 23, 2006
Commenting on sic's post regarding Pete Rose's eligibility - I agree he should be in the HOF based on his accomplishments and that the Hall is not necessarily a place for saints. Keep in mind the reason Rose is not on the ballot - he is on the "ineligible" list as part of his agreement with Giamatti. I say that regrettably, because I grew up in love with Rose and the Big Red Machine....
posted by tglenn29 at 11:43 AM on July 23, 2006
If the HOF were just about what a player did on the field than Pete Rose would be in it. He's not, therefore the HOF is not just about what a player did on the field. Actually, Rose isn't in the HOF because of what he did on the field. He managed/played baseball while making bets on the games he participated in. If he bet on other sports, he probably wouldn't have a lifetime ban. If he bet on baseball while not being a part of a major league team, he probably wouldn't have a lifetime ban.
posted by grum@work at 01:06 PM on July 23, 2006
My guess is that none of these guys will get in on the first ballot, but will get in eventually. Maybe the voters will collaborate and not vote them in until their final year of eligibility, as a sort of silent protest. You have no idea how much that idea disgusts me. Collaborating on a secret vote? I'm pretty sure you can lose your voting priviledges for attempting to rig the vote like that.
posted by grum@work at 01:07 PM on July 23, 2006
Big Mac should be in. He was an awsome power hitter and the things he used at the time where not banned in baseball. Don't care if you say it was unfair because anyone had the oppurtunity to use them. Rose should be in the HOF too. The difference is he put his team indanger because of how important he was to the team. If he where to bet on the other team to beat them he could have just struck out with the winning run on and no one would have a second thought about it.
posted by kidrayter2005 at 01:10 PM on July 23, 2006
I probably shouldn't weigh in here, but giving my opinion has never been one of my shortcomings! :) McGwire's (and Sosa's) performance in 1998 (and the class with which they did it) brought a lot of fans back to baseball after the suicidal strike season of 1994 and for that alone the HOF should probably be a lock. The performance in front of Congress always makes me laugh. In this country we take the most sadistic, miserable, low-life serial killer and provide him with the right to remain silent and not incriminate himself - then we expect a decent guy - WHO ISN'T EVEN CHARGED WITH A CRIME - to get halled in front of Congress on the national stage and spill his guts and ruin his own reputation. If I had been McGwire I would have respectfully stated, "I am not charged with a crime and I respectfully refuse to answer any question posed to me on the grounds that I am protected by the Fifth Amendment to the Constitution of the United states from being forced to incriminate myself." Had McGwire tried the "Palmeiro defense" he would have been blasted for being a liar. He had three choices and each of them would have resulted in him being vilified by the press, fans and anyone with a computer. Anything bad McGwire did is certainly outweighed by the immeasurable good he did for baseball (and my beloved Cardinals) and he should be elected to the HOF. Personally, I think we need to get rid of the sportswriters making this decision and put it where it rightfully belongs - in the hands of all retired major league players. They are the best judge of what a HOF player is and they understand how to give weight to the good and the bad in a player's career. Okay, I'm done!
posted by StLCardsFan at 02:14 PM on July 23, 2006
Rose should be in the HOF too... If he where to bet on the other team to beat them he could have just struck out with the winning run on and no one would have a second thought about it. I don't know how you can put those sentences together and believe both of them. in the hands of all retired major league players. "And the last of the New York Yankee 1996 team has now been inducted into the baseball hall of fame. Congratulations 3-time World Series champion and all-around nice guy, Luis Sojo!"
posted by grum@work at 02:19 PM on July 23, 2006
grum, I wasn't aware that Rose bet on games he was playing in, just games he was managing (still pretty bad but a very different "crime"). If that's true, and I have every reason to believe your superior base of knowledge, then no, he shouldn't be in the HOF. Thanks for clarifying.
posted by fenriq at 02:46 PM on July 23, 2006
Mark McGwire is a lying, stonewalling, selfish jackass. He skirted both the official rules of baseball and the laws of the land, and quite probably broke plenty of both. He took steroids, and then stood up in congress and refused to help them get to the bottom of what has apparently become an epidemic in professional and amateur sports, no thanks to him. His inability to take a stand and stick to it has damaged his reputation, not just right now, but for all time. Fifty years from now, people will look at McGwire's numbers, and tut-tut sadly. He is uncelebrateable. Everyone claiming that Barry Bonds is taking all the heat for steroids is conveniently ignoring the fact that McGwire can't even go to functions in St. Louis anymore for fear of reprisal. But all that said, the Hall of Fame was never a church social, and he should be in. Just like Rose, and Bonds, and Palmeiro.
posted by chicobangs at 02:54 PM on July 23, 2006
I wasn't aware that Rose bet on games he was playing in, just games he was managing He was a player/manager near the end of his career (1984-1986). They have chronicled betting slips of his from the 1987 season, but eyewitness testimony from former friends say he was doing it in 1985 and 1986 as well. And betting on games where you are a manager is even worse than as a player. If you start screwing up in the field/mound/bat, your manager can pull you out of the game. But as a manager, you can manipulate your lineup (such as pitching changes) in any way you feel. That's where you can really affect the outcome of the game.
posted by grum@work at 03:27 PM on July 23, 2006
Glad to see that my first ever post to SF at least got a little response! Now for my opinion: Mac did bring people back to the game. He was and is, by all accounts, a nice guy. He did hit a tremendous amount of dingers. He DOESN'T belong in the Hall. The HOF should be a place to revel in the achievements of the games greatest players and I would not put Big Mac in that category. Good player, fun to watch, possibly a law-breaker (not unlike a lot of our sports heroes) but I just can't consider him great. I can't stand Barry, but he is a great player. I don't really want to see him in the Hall but he should end up there.
posted by ballen7065 at 03:56 PM on July 23, 2006
Just like Rose, and Bonds, and Palmeiro. I think Palmeiro was enough of a borderline, borderline case before the steroids issue that I don't know he does belong anymore.
posted by yerfatma at 05:45 PM on July 23, 2006
The best thing i ever did was throw my Mac,Bonds,Raffie bats into the backyard firepit while all my friends cheered(all gamers i might add).Wait until they all get full blown cancer in a few years,which they will.Then what,blame the hotdogs from the ballpark for the cancer?
posted by irishmic2004@sbcglobal.net at 06:40 PM on July 23, 2006
Damn, Irish, you sound like a jilted lover.
posted by forrestv at 08:37 PM on July 23, 2006
Chico, do you live in STL? I do, but I am not aware of "reprisal" issues with McGwire and STL. Where did you get your info?
posted by cardsfan at 09:49 PM on July 23, 2006
irish: Cancer? You mean the cancer you probablly caused your friends when you subjected them to burning chemically altered products? If you believe taking an illegal drug keeps you out of the HOF then every HOF player who took greenies should be out. And don't forget doctors were known to give the occasional "B12" shot. McGwire's only mistake before Congress was in not saying, "You, sir, can stick my bat up your ass." That committee was looking to make headlines. Period. Anything that happened there shouldn't impact the HOF vote.
posted by ?! at 09:53 PM on July 23, 2006
Mcgwire is a doper...anyone who says otherwise is a fool. Keep him, Palmeiro, Bonds, Sosa, etc. out of Cooperstown. Don't be naive....Mcgwire is a "nice guy" but nice guys shoot the shi! too.
posted by ggermanctl@sbcglobal at 10:03 PM on July 23, 2006
You left out a very important part of my comment grum. The difference is is a very important part of it. McGwire improved his team with his act but Rose could have destroyed the team if it helped his bet. By just numbers I think they are both in. If we included numbers and outside the park stuff then I still vote both of them in. The reason Rose isn't in and McGwire has a chance is Rose endangered his team and baseball with what he did and McGwier brought baseball back.
posted by kidrayter2005 at 10:50 PM on July 23, 2006
You left out a very important part of my comment grum. The difference is is a very important part of it. You are right. I misread what you wrote. I interpretted your statement as "He should be in the HOF and did this bad thing." when in fact it was "He should be in the HOF, but did this bad thing." My apologies.
posted by grum@work at 11:32 PM on July 23, 2006
McGwire's 70 home run year along with Sosa revitalized interest in the game. But the bottom line is that these steroid enhanced players cheated all of us. The most effective deterrent is to deny hall of fame entry to both Mac and Bonds so that their shameful records are never glorified.
posted by judgedread at 11:38 PM on July 23, 2006
cardsfan: Didn't he wind up not showing for the Busch Stadium closing ceremonies for fear of the reaction his appearance would have provoked?
posted by chicobangs at 11:51 PM on July 23, 2006
We stood downwind from the smoke ya dope.Like burning 3 roid bat's is worse than the pollution or even the air in your house.Actually,the bats were ash, pretty much with the laquer shaved off.Thanks for your concern tho.I'm jilted,i loved baseball more than anything until all this shit came out.If i had a Sammy bat,the cork would of made the fire last longer....
posted by irishmic2004@sbcglobal.net at 06:30 AM on July 24, 2006
CB: He was there for the final regular season weekend, even pulled down #3 on the countdown clock in right field. There were a few boos from the typical beer drinking bench warmers, but all he (and his kids) would have heard was cheering. (Once a Cardinal, always a Cardinal. We'll still cheer for you even if you leave us to go play for the AL team that whooped us in the Series.) He did fess up to taking andro when the media questioned him, I'm not sure if he really could have done much good for the game by full disclosure in a congressional witch hunt. The players have got to police themselves and keep "trainers" (groupies) who lack the raw talent to be a big leager but still want to be part of baseball greatness out of the locker rooms. As for HOF voting, its gotta be based on player production relative to the era they played. Otherwise you would have to include the years that Mantle led the league in "the clap" as part of his profile.
posted by cardsfan at 06:41 AM on July 24, 2006
The most effective deterrent is to deny hall of fame entry to both Mac and Bonds so that their shameful records are never glorified. The stuff Bonds used to break the records was banned by baseball and I agree he should be kept out of the HOF but McGwire used stuff that baseball had not banned. To me the homerun record still belongs to Big Mac. He used leagal stuff. Bonds didn't.
posted by kidrayter2005 at 11:07 AM on July 24, 2006
I think Mac is in. He retired just in time. When it comes down to it, that's pretty much the "technicality", if you will, that will allow for his inclusion. Because the numbers are so staggeringly in his favour. Palmeiro isn't close to Mac in terms of his year over year production. And the end of his career will always haunt him. And I am no Big Mac fan. I believe he was on more than just Andro. But, simply put - he got away with it.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 11:20 AM on July 24, 2006
I don't think he should get in on the first ballot, not because of steroids but because he wasn't a HOF caliber player. I think there is an argument to slide him in if a relatively weak year comes along due to his achievements hitting home runs. But other than those HRs, he never actually won much of anything. He was never the MVP, he was not great fielder, never really hit for average at all (he only had 2 full season over .300). He won a WS but only hit 5 HRs total in his playoff career (10 series - 42 games).
posted by mikelbyl at 01:37 PM on July 24, 2006
Maybe they should have a Shoeless Rose MacBonds wing where they can all be memorialized.
posted by LostInDaJungle at 04:30 PM on July 24, 2006
irishmic2004@sbcglobal.net: "We stood downwind from the smoke ya dope" That's what I figured.
posted by ?! at 04:38 PM on July 26, 2006
Mark Mcguire should be in the hall of fame. He took things that were legal at the time just like countless other plyers.