October 25, 2009

Sammy Sosa could be the first base coach. Barry Bonds the third base coach. Rafael Palmeiro bench coach and Roger Clemens pitching coach.

posted by otbagain at 12:32 AM on October 26, 2009

How about we let Pujols teach the other guys to hit. He does pretty well. Based on overall career batting stats, McGwire is a huge step down from Hal McRae.

Sammy Sosa could be the first base coach. Barry Bonds the third base coach. Rafael Palmeiro bench coach and Roger Clemens pitching coach.

Just for fun, let's say McGwire does come back to St. Louis. Sosa returns to Chicago. Clemens to NY, Boston, Houston - you pick. Raffy goes to Baltimore and so on down the list. Each coaching their respective positions that they excelled in while allegedly using steroids/PEDs. That would be some ridiculous irony of untold ridiculousness.

posted by BoKnows at 01:43 AM on October 26, 2009

new team nutritionist? trainer? pharmacist?

posted by cletus7777 at 04:39 AM on October 26, 2009

Yahoo's take.

posted by BoKnows at 12:41 PM on October 26, 2009

Espn is reporting it as a done deal.

posted by Debo270 at 02:06 PM on October 26, 2009

I just don't see what the big deal surrounding McGwire is all about. Sure, he looked like a fool when kept repeating the same answer to Congress ("I'm not here to talk aout the past") but what was the man ever guilty of? Suspicion? Rumors? Other than scumbag Canseco, there wasn't any talk of Mark McGwire and PED's.

Granted, after the Congress debacle McGwire slid under a rock and failed to appear anywhere but whatever took place before MLB instituted a drug policy should stay in the past so that we can move forward.

posted by BornIcon at 03:43 PM on October 26, 2009

Maybe he just didn't see the point in answering questions from self-serving, grandstanding assholes?

posted by wfrazerjr at 04:00 PM on October 26, 2009

Let's pretend you're Mark McGwire.

You're being singled out on national television by the government of the United Fucking States of America as Public Enemy No. 1 for something that wasn't illegal and even against the rules in your own sport. And, the sport you helped lift back up after its own stupid greed and pig-headedness nearly sank it, they have no interest in coming clean themselves, right?

So you should be the guy to shoulder all of that? Why? What possible good does it do you when in your heart, you're most likely thinking you did what you needed to succeed, what the baseball establishment was telling you do and what the fans wanted?

If an athlete like McGwire had admitted everything and challenged the league and the fans to own up to the role they played in it, who knows what would have happened?

I'm sure as soon as he admitted to everything, baseball's owners and management would have come rushing into the halls of Congress to embrace him. They're all stand-up guys, right?

And all the others hundreds or thousands of guys who cheated, they would have all come out of the woodwork to support him. They would have all said, "By golly, that Mark McGwire has shamed us -- we should get up there ourselves."

And fans would have immediately forgiven him, because we all know how rational and understanding fans are. They wouldn't have turned on him even after being the ones cheering him on to break the record.

Nope, he wouldn't have been hung out in the wind, not a chance.

Let me ask you -- do you think Mark McGwire is better off being disliked by you for not answering questions from Congress, or better off taking the chance (at the time) being known as the one guy from his era who absolutely and unequivocally juiced? Where's the benefit of that?

A Rod certainly seems to have neutralized the issue by coming clean. Or at least clean enough for people to believe him.

Of course ARod came clean -- it certainly appears he can't stand not having the approval and attention of everyone around him. Maybe McGwire doesn't need the blessing of you, I or the Congress to get on with his life.

Or maybe he just thinks it's none of your business.

posted by wfrazerjr at 04:32 PM on October 26, 2009

My comment about deference was directed to someone else.

As for your elaborate rationalization for McGwire's gutlessness, sorry I'm not buying. People hate hypocrisy more than just about anything. Hugh Grant cheats on one of the most beautiful actresses in the world to get a $60 blowjob from a scary street hooker. One act of honest contrition on Jay Leno later, and he's still got a career as a leading man in romantic films.

Think about that. Surely the public regards skeevy hooker sexers as worse than legal steroid abusers, and Hugh Grant had a career that depended on public likability far more than a pro athlete. Post apology, he's starred in films that grossed more than $1 billion at the box office.

If McGwire had manned up and said exactly what drugs he took and why, he'd be an adored public figure and media darling. Instead, he's a guy who can't even slink back to the bigs as a hitting coach without it being treated like Roman Polanski coming back to the United States.

This "none of your business" stuff is silly. He was the single-season home run king, the holder of one of the most revered records in American sports. He was paid $74 million dollars in his career. His conduct in the game is hardly a private matter.

posted by rcade at 05:01 PM on October 26, 2009

I am puzzled, he got his home run power by cheating and he had a lifetime batting average of .263, how does this qualify him to be a hitting coach?

posted by Atheist at 05:21 PM on October 26, 2009

If McGwire had manned up and said exactly what drugs he took and why, he'd be an adored public figure and media darling.

I think there's a better chance that he does that if that ridiculous hearing had happened this year. But think about the steroids landscape of 2005: you're in the first serious wave of steroids outrage, everybody is treating it like a moral issue and not a legislative/technical one, and the guy who has the closest public association with steroids is Barry Bonds, who is vilified by pretty much everybody everywhere.

That's not a cauldron I'd be ready to throw myself into. I can't blame him for doing his best to keep a low profile and stay out of it as much as possible. He had no way of knowing when, or even if, things would become more reasonable.

posted by DrJohnEvans at 05:45 PM on October 26, 2009

You have no proof of that whatsoever.

That goes without saying. But there are many examples of people who done wrong, came clean and got through it swimmingly. The ones who get out in front of it do better. David Letterman played his audience like a fiddle when revealing his affairs. It became a blackmail story, not a smarmy boss story.

The ones who seem to be hiding something are like chum for sharks.

If McGwire was smart, he could've put on a whole show before the Congressional hearing, complete with a sympathetic 60 Minutes interview and the like.

Maybe you can make a case for knowing because of the sanctity of the game, but what he was paid? That sounds like you'd wish the hate on him out of jealousy.

I don't know why you would make that connection, which falsely assumes that I don't think he was worth the money. I can't recall ever expressing such a thought on SportsFilter over an athlete's compensation. I'd rather they earn it than the owners keeping it all. I don't watch sports to see owners own.

I mentioned his salary because he profited handsomely in a career that put him in the spotlight. Turning the spotlight off now -- the "none of your business" notion -- is a little late in the game. He made it our business by becoming a multimillionaire pro athlete.

posted by rcade at 07:01 PM on October 26, 2009

Also interesting, McGuire's lifetime batting average is exactly the same as the Cards team average in 2009 at .263. See here

So what exactly makes this an upgrade for the team?

posted by MW12 at 07:45 PM on October 26, 2009

See, what you want to be doing is hitting dingers.

posted by dusted at 08:22 PM on October 26, 2009

Well, I can't just leave that hanging. There used to be a phrase for this sort of thing around here...

I presented the links of both players stats in an earlier post. But I will do so again.

I guess when I look at McGwire's career stats, I see a bunch of home runs and RBIs, but also a bunch of strikeouts. He was also very inconsistent year-to-year in almost every category.

Looking at McRae's stats I see a more complete hitter, the jack-of-all-trades if you will. Good amount of doubles and triples. A consistent batting average year to year. He never really had a big drop-off in any stat, season to season.

My opinion would be to take Hal McRae over McGwire in the role of a batting/hitting coach due to him just being a more complete hitter. That said, if it was possible to teach every guy in the lineup how to hit dingers, McGwire would be the guy for sure. But that's just not reality. Especially when playing under LaRussa, who manages a very situational type of game.

You have a point with the walks, at least in terms of total number. But that number doesn't take into account the intentional vs. the unintentional vs. the unintentional intentional walks. And 511 (about 40%) of McGwire's walks came from 1996-1999 (only 25% of his 16 year career), when he was receiving what was later dubbed as the 'Bond's Treatment' at the plate. The walks were not always a part of his game. The situations were different, as were the aspects of the game from 1970-1987 (McRae) and 1986-2001(McGwire).

posted by BoKnows at 09:55 PM on October 26, 2009

Well, for their entire careers, intentional walks accounted for 11.3% of McGwire's total walks. For Hal McRae, it accounted for 10.5%.

What that stat doesn't reflect is all the time McGwire was "pitched around" from 1996-1999. On the scorecard it appears as a walk, but the intent of the pitcher was to get him to swing at bad balls and to walk him rather than put something in the strike zone for him to crush. Or, when the count is 3-1, and the pitcher just walks him on the fourth pitch to try his luck with the next batter. Just the same as Bonds. My point is that because of that treatment, which seems unquantifiable, the elevated # of walks and increase in OBP doesn't suggest that he is a smart hitter who earned each of those walks.

The walks were not always a part of his game.

Huh? For 1000 consecutive games (18 seasons, 1992-2000), his OBP was .434.

I'll concede the 18 years that spanned between 1992 and 2000. I don't know how he did it, but it sounds amazing. You have me there on paper, but if you remove 1996-1999, his OBP drops to .369 (1986-1995), still above the AL average during those years, but not near the increase when including 1996-1999. (I think we all can agree that during the years 1996-1999, Mark McGwire was using methods that may have significantly contributed to his power numbers and were eventually banned.)

My opinion isn't that McGwire is undeserving of the job, or the HOF, or being known as a great power hitter. I was there in St. Louis during the entire Home Run chase in 98. It was great and he was great fun to watch. It's that I think Hal McRae was a better all-around hitter consistently through his career. And if consistent player performance translates into coaching ability that generates consistency, I'd choose McRae to coach my teams hitters.

posted by BoKnows at 01:57 AM on October 27, 2009

If you don't think Mark McGwire abused performance enhancing drugs, what motive did he have for refusing to answer questions before Congress?

If you took that as me saying that I don't think McGwire did PED's, you're mistaken. After everything that's been found out so far, I do believe that just about everyone took something, we just don't really know what McGwire took since he disappeared after Capitol Hill without saying much of anything.

Your deference to star athletes is breathtaking sometimes.

Even if it was Joe Schmo, I would be saying the same thing. It's not about a person being a superstar, it's about not believing everything you read or hear.

Maybe he just didn't see the point in answering questions from self-serving, grandstanding assholes?

I thought the same thing since he was subpoenaed. That's doesn't mean that he had to answer any questions, he could've just pleaded the 5th which is why the court of public opinion already says that he's guilty but he brought that upon himself by not admitting what he's done in the past and repeating the same thing over & over while sweating like Brendan Fraser in Bedazzled.

A Rod certainly seems to have neutralized the issue by coming clean. Or at least clean enough for people to believe him.

I can agree with that.

Course that means Bonds is a sure thing first ballot Hall of Famer also, right?

Well, first ballot may be a stretch considering the votes are in the writers hands but I don't see why Bonds wouldn't get into the Hall of Fame. He was worthy of that honor when he was with the Pirates and what happened with the Giants was just a bonus.

/I know, I know...but still

posted by BornIcon at 08:03 AM on October 27, 2009

If the argument is that McRae would make a better hitting coach then McGwire because he hit for a higher average and struck out less, well I don't know what to tell you. I've never seen stats measure out to predict coaching ability.

If the argument that McRae fits the more classic definition of a hitting coach, again I'm not sure that's true. Look up Walt Hriniak's career stats some day. Or Gene Tenace. And how come Tony Gwynn, Wade Boggs and George Brett aren't hitting coaches, then?

Because none of that matters.

Oh and Mark McGwire was a different kind of hitter than McRae, but there is no one in the annals of baseball history who would ever - EVER - suggest that McRae was a BETTER hitter than McGwire.

McGwire was the better hitter.

And just so we're all clear - Batting Average is the not the best metric to measure how "good" a hitter is. OBP is much more revealing.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 10:32 AM on October 27, 2009

Oh, and it's nice to hear you again grummy. This place is better with you in it.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 10:47 AM on October 27, 2009

I don't need to be right here, yerfatma. You don't have to agree with my opinion, because that's all it is, an opinion.

I think that's a bit of an easy out when you were a bit coy in the same response:

For those 4 years (1996-1999), yes, I agree.

Which years would you say McRae was the better hitter than McGwire? McGwire's career OPS+, which is the best way I know of to compare hitters across eras, is 162. McRae never had a single season above 153.

posted by yerfatma at 11:39 AM on October 27, 2009

I never said he was a better hitter. I said a more complete hitter. I also said a jack-of-all-trades hitter. A more consistent hitter. A better all-around hitter throughout his enitire career. I said a smart, patient hitter. I never said better.

posted by yerfatma at 02:03 PM on October 27, 2009

fac⋅et n. aspect; phase

Compare with "all-around".

posted by yerfatma at 02:41 PM on October 27, 2009

a) In the middle of lucrative careers, not done with them ...

Hugh Grant's career as a romantic leading man in movies easily could have been over if he didn't handle his skeevy hooker incident well.

It sounds like you need someone to die for our baseball sins.

I don't need anything here. I'm simply looking at what Mark McGwire did in his career, what he told Congress, and where his reputation is at today -- the toilet. In my opinion, it didn't have to be that way.

People wanted to like McGwire. Performance-enhancing drugs were not against the rules in his day. If he had come clean, admitted what he took and why, and told the kids watching him the dangerous risks they were taking by doing the same, he could've walked out of that hearing with his held held high. The media would've eaten it up.

The most significant issue at that hearing wasn't the honor of baseball or the reputation of players like McGwire. It was the dead kids whose parents were there talking about the price their children paid for steroid abuse.

McGwire testified he would "use whatever influence and popularity I have" to discourage young athletes from using steroids. He didn't accomplish that by being evasive about his past at the hearing, and I'm not aware of anything he's done since then to discourage steroid use. Every day he evades answering the question is a missed opportunity, particularly now that he's back in baseball.

posted by rcade at 09:28 PM on October 27, 2009

I'm waiting to hear a story where a ball player took steroids and his career still went to shit. We only hear about the guys that used or are suspected of using PED's that were or still are the stars of the game (McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, Pettit, A-Rod just to name a few) but we never hear about the other side of the spectrum. Most of the guys that I've mentioned already had great or very good careers before any of the steriod talk even surfaced.

I find it hard to believe that there are no players out there who's career went nowhere before and after taking PED's.

posted by BornIcon at 11:51 AM on October 28, 2009