August 15, 2007

Wow. I can't recall seeing a player crazy enough to swing a bat as a weapon before. The guy's a former all-star, and he's likely to be kicked out of minor league ball. That's a long way down.

posted by rcade at 09:45 AM on August 15, 2007

Holding someone criminally liable for their onfield actions is a really interesting issue. This article details a rugby player who got 6 months for assault for an on-field behavior, and here is an article about Tony Limon, a high school basketball player who is currently serving time for elbowing another player during a game and breaking his nose. This Court TV article provides a nice summary. While it's totally insane to tear off after a pitcher with a bat, Mike Tyson bit a dudes ear off, and he wasn't charged. Personally I think these are matters for the leagues to deal with not the courts. Let's preserve the arena mentality for our arenas, if athletes dun like it they can take up golf.

posted by chmurray at 10:28 AM on August 15, 2007

Without getting into the other incidents, I think this one is pretty clearly justified in bringing in law enforcement. Once Offerman left the batter's box with a bat in his hand, he was no longer playing baseball. At that point he was clearly attempting to commit assault. You guys make it sound as though if he suddenly whipped a gun out of his pocket and shot up the joint we should still keep it in the hands of the umpires.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 11:01 AM on August 15, 2007

There is a world of difference between charging the mound and assault with a deadly weapon. The sports field cannot and should not be a place where the rules do not apply. Interpreted differently perhaps, as contact sports are inherently violent, but deliberate attempts to inflict career (and possibly life) ending injuries should not be tolerated either by the league or the law.

posted by oxocerite at 11:11 AM on August 15, 2007

Agreed on the point about 2000 and 2001. Actually, agreed on all of Venice's points. Offerman should be arrested. It might have taken place within the confines of baseball, but it is still against the law. I could go walk down the hall now in my privately held company, and kick someone in the nuts. I'd expect to get fired and maybe have an assault charge levied against me with the local PD.

posted by jerseygirl at 11:29 AM on August 15, 2007

But if you worked in the QC deparment for a cup manufacturer, would it still be right to call in the police just because the guy in the hall happened not to be wearing one? /devil's advocate

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 11:33 AM on August 15, 2007

So hitting someone with a baseball going 80-100 mph isn't considered a weapon? Like I said, this incident did in fact escalate but I'm sure there wasn't any reason to bring in the cops. There were many other incidents that were far worse than what Offerman did that did not have law enforcement brought in. By all means am I not condoning what Jose Offerman did but I just don't agree with him being arrested for this. This isn't the first time that someone tried to attack a pitcher with a bat after being hit or brushed back with a baseball. Does anyone remember the name John Roseboro? How about Hall of Famer, Juan Marichal? Was Marichal prosecuted over this?

posted by BornIcon at 11:48 AM on August 15, 2007

This wasn't in 1965 and no cops were involved. Suspend, ban or fine him but I just don't see why officers were involved in the aftermath. I guess this is the way sports will play out nowadays if incidents do occur on the field of play.

posted by BornIcon at 12:30 PM on August 15, 2007

How do you define "course of play" here? Remember Ben Christensen? In the right context you're going after the pitcher instead. My point is simply that we have a long established history of letting leagues (and to a lesser extent leagues letting players/enforcers) decide this kind of stuff. To haul players in these situations into criminal trials is absurd to me, because I find nothing wrong with their attitude. I don't want domesticated boxers or NFL players, I don't want NBA floppers, and frankly I was happier when the leagues looked the other way to players meting our justice with their fists to stop dirty or cheap players that referees couldn't catch. I don't want a slippery slope. To my mind Offerman's crazy attack was mitigated by a pitcher intentionally striking him with a ball. Unless we have some kind of Billy Cole-type incident, I really don't see how criminal charges are a good thing for sports. Set the line at entrance to the arena. I'm not exactly staking out controversial territory here. It's not like this dudes ear was chewed off.

posted by chmurray at 01:00 PM on August 15, 2007

...it is certainly legitimate to consider criminal charges against a football player that stomps a player in the head while he's down... Maybe you haven't seen the way that the NFL used to be played before it became flag football and full of half-assed tough guys. Most of those guys would've been locked up according to you. I can understand wanting to be civil even while playing sports but com'on now, this argument is just ridiculous. I personally DO NOT want to see any athlete hurt/injured because of some intentional, violent act but to call it 'criminal' is just ludicrous. Where was the uproar when Tyson bit Holyfield's ear off? Where was the cops then? Where were the law enforcement officials when Roger Clemens threw at Mike Piazza's head and connected? This is sports and it should remain a seperate entity and it's rules & regulations be enforced by the officials that are left in charge. Oh yeah, I forgot. We're now in the age of "court of public opinion" and what people think is what carries more weight than just having common sense and letting things play out. Throw the book at him!

posted by BornIcon at 01:26 PM on August 15, 2007

I agree with BornIcon ... If a batter is arrested for swinging a bat at someone, a pitcher should be arrested for throwing 90 mile per hour at someone's head. Although I don't think either warrant an arrest. I understand a bat is a pretty serious weapon if swung and connected in the right way, but I'd bet a baseball could seriously downgrade someone's quality of life if it hit in the right way (it was a long time ago, but see Ray Chapman). This could almost be considered self-defense.

posted by Ricardo at 01:42 PM on August 15, 2007

I agree with BornIcon ... If a batter is arrested for swinging a bat at someone, a pitcher should be arrested for throwing 90 mile per hour at someone's head. There are several big differences between someone getting hit with a ball thrown by a pitcher and someone getting hit by a bat. Getting hit by a pitch is a part of the game that happens not infrequently. This makes it difficult to determine intent (that is, when someone is going headhunting vs. just having poor control). Also, the batter has certain protections from getting hit, including a helmet (which Ray Chapman did not have the benefit of) and whatever other kind of protection he may be wearing. A batsman going after a player with a bat is not something that happens in the regular course of play, making the intent (to injure) much easier to discern. Also, the player on the receiving end basically has no protection.

posted by holden at 02:06 PM on August 15, 2007

Offerman obviously learned nothing in his time with the Sox. Had he paid attention to Izzy Alcantra, he'd have known how to deal with this. Or at least get the catcher out of the picture.

posted by yerfatma at 05:30 PM on August 15, 2007

i blame Carl Everett. people do weird shit when he's around. in 2000, when the drunk guy jumped from upper deck at Yankee Stadium onto the netting behind home plate, who was on the Red Sox for that game? Carl Everett. And in 2005, when the stupid kid jumped from the upper deck at Yankee Stadium onto the netting behind home plate, who was on the White Sox for that game? yup, Carl Everett.

posted by goddam at 09:10 PM on August 15, 2007

So many "fond" Carl Everett moments... I couldn't choose just one. Curly Haired Boyfriend still makes me laugh, though.

posted by jerseygirl at 06:14 AM on August 16, 2007

If you could please clarify something for me BI, are upset that he was brought up on charges or that he was arrested upon entering the club house? I'm not 'upset' just confused on why the 'long arm of the law' got involved in something that IMO, didn't warrant an arrest. I certainly can understand why people would be upset over this incident but in either case, no one was seriously injured and both players will be back to playing ball very soon. Offerman should be dealt with but by the officials of baseball, not by Judge Joe Brown. If i knock a coworker out... To make an analogy about 'real world jobs' into this discussion just doesn't make any sense. Agreed, playing baseball for a living is in fact a job but how many jobs pays a guy $252 million? Not even the President makes that much but then again, can he hit a 2-1 fastball, low & away? I have a great career that pays me very well but it doesn't consist of me having to lay down a bunt to advance the runner into scoring position and it also doesn't have 40,000 people cheering or jeering at me to get the job done. Plus, if I were to attack a co-worker, I know what the consequences would lead to, unemployment. Sports have always been an escape from reality but it seems that reality is now entering sports. Next thing you know, players wll be ticketed for loitering because they're spitting sunflower seeds on to the field. Don't get things twisted, I'm not disagreeing with anyone's reaction over this, I just don't see why now, after years of players having some kind of altercation whether it's fighting, biting, spitting, scratching or just talking about someone's mom but it's always been handled by the officials of their respective sport. To have the law get involved can only bring more scenerios where their involvement will be looked at sideways.

posted by BornIcon at 07:49 AM on August 16, 2007

playing baseball for a living is in fact a job but how many jobs pays a guy $252 million Is there a contest for Worst Logic going on around this site I don't know about?

posted by yerfatma at 08:54 AM on August 16, 2007

Offerman is making 252m in independent minor league ball? I don't get how what BI does at work correlates to what a baseball player does at his job. So? A job is a job. Their job > your job. You're still at a place of employment whether you're sitting in a cubicle, you're driving a garbage truck or you're in a stadium doing something perceived as fun. Again, sic, it comes down to intent.

posted by jerseygirl at 09:15 AM on August 16, 2007

Sports is a job but it has never been looked at as actual work as this kind of "job" can make an athlete an instant millionaire, famous and a household name. I don't understand this logic. Because a person is an instant millionaire, famous, and a household name, they are exempt from the same laws I have to obey while at work?

posted by hawkguy at 09:59 AM on August 16, 2007

Of course if he "killed someone with his bat" then the law would definitely be needed to be involved Okay, so what if he didn't kill him? What if that wild-ass swing had clocked him in the head and left him in a wheelchair for life? With a catastrophic head injury, there's always the chance of a stroke, too. How about leaving a guy unable to earn a living, or even fundamentally care for himself, for the rest of his life? Throwing a beanball at a guy sucks, and it should be outlawed (or punished so harshly as to be worthless), but it's a hell of a lot easier to get out of the way of a thrown baseball than a professional athlete chasing you with a 34-inch, 32-ounce piece of lumber. I understand your "leave it between the lines" mentality, but only to a point. When you charge the mound waving your bat like a member of the Baseball Furies, you're no longer an athlete, playing a game; you're a criminal. And to think, for all these years, I thought the scariest thing about Jose Offerman was the way he played second base.

posted by The_Black_Hand at 10:09 AM on August 16, 2007

Fair enough, BI, so we have a scale there - at one end let's say we have charging the mound without a bat for which we probably all agree that no police action is merited because to an extent it's part of the game, I'm not even sure that is a given if someone caused real harm. If you charge the pitcher without a bat and crack his skull, I don't know if it is a part of the game anymore. Would Kermit Washington be charged with assault if the punch happened today?

posted by bperk at 10:43 AM on August 16, 2007

I don't understand this logic. Because a person is an instant millionaire, famous, and a household name, they are exempt from the same laws I have to obey while at work? I think we've already established they are exempt from the same laws. Players charge the mound and assault the pitcher all the time. No charges are filed. It just has nothing to do with fame or money. This whole discussion really revolves around "the line". Many people feel Offerman should be arrested for taking the bat, but don't believe the same if he had swung his fist. Where does that line lie? I can't say for sure, but I think intending to use the bat to bash his head in isn't quite the same as actually doing it. If he kills the guy with the bat, then I would say that's over the line. If he even whacks him in the head good, probably over the line. The catcher, from what I can reason, was hit accidentally on the backswing so that shouldn't merit arrest. I feel the same way if a player charges the mound using nothing but knuckles. If he kills the guy from swinging arm, then arrest him. I doubt many players have ever charged the mound with the intent of actually hurting someone. It's just rage that has no intent. I think the outcome is what should be used to adjudge whether the law gets involved or not. The pitcher did get a broken hand or finger, but I don't think merits the arrest.

posted by Ricardo at 10:55 AM on August 16, 2007

I don't think anyone wants to argue that intentionally hurting someone is supposed to be part of sports. Ronnie Lott is on line one, Muhammad Ali is on line two, and Tie Domi is on line three. I have a great career that pays me very well but it doesn't consist of me having to lay down a bunt to advance the runner into scoring position and it also doesn't have 40,000 people cheering or jeering at me to get the job done. I have to find me some job that entails laying down a bunt so I can whack some people with a bat. I think "Consultant" is an ambiguous enough job that I can convince people that my job duties include bunting. Look out, world. Plus, if I were to attack a co-worker, I know what the consequences would lead to, unemployment. Jose Offerman whacked somebody, and is very likely to be very unemployed (and on top of that, unemployable, at least throughout that league). Is your point that Offerman should be entitled to do the things that you aren't entitled to do? And, again, who are you upset at for the cops getting involved? Do you even know why they got involved? Did somebody call them, or were they already on hand providing security and took it upon themselves to arrest somebody for an obvious assault attempt? How can you get so worked up when you don't even know with whom you are upset?

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 11:16 AM on August 16, 2007

Ricardo: I think we've already established they are exempt from the same laws. Actually, I think what's been established is that such exemptions are limited and specific. yerfatma: Athletes don't get arrested because the "victim" doesn't press charges. Well...in practice, probably so, but the victim's declining to press charges doesn't give someone a get out of jail free card. If two guys go out behind a bar and pound each other, the cops/DA/courts don't have to give them a freebie based on the fact that they went there willingly. Consent is not a defense to assault, except in very limited exceptions such as an organized boxing match, and the state is perfectly capable of pressing charges if a DA chooses to go there.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 12:09 PM on August 16, 2007

I still don't agree with the cops getting involved, it's just my opinion. On what basis? That the law doesn't consider this to be an assault, or that the law does consider it to be assault but the law should be ignored in this case?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 12:34 PM on August 16, 2007

I think the legal test for consent is whether the contact is anticipated. In this way, a batter charging the mound without a bat and the pitcher hitting a batter with a ball are both exceptions. Attacking a pitcher with bat in hand is pretty far outside of what would be anticipated in baseball.

posted by bperk at 01:24 PM on August 16, 2007

Why is it so hard for people to understand that by no means does anyone want to see another individual and/or professional athlete(s) injured. I can only speak for myself but I do not condone violence. I do condone self-defense and random acts of violence are just heart-breaking. This was a situation where one individual felt as if he was being targeted by the pitcher and lost his cool. I'm not saying that what Offerman did was justified but I just don't understand why the cops were needed after the situation was already done & over with. I'm not trying to convince anyone else to agree with my point of view but I'm just looking at the flip-side of the coin. Increase the peace and keep the dialog coming.

posted by BornIcon at 02:37 PM on August 16, 2007

Ricardo: Charging the mound without a bat then falls into the same category as charging the mound with a bat. In terms of it being considered attempted assault in the eyes of the law, I believe that's so: it's neither incidental nor a regulated combat sport. There's obviously a difference in that a bat is clearly a deadly weapon. bperk: I think the legal test for consent is whether the contact is anticipated. That doesn't sound correct to me. Once again, I believe that in US law, except for certain very narrow and well-defined exceptions, you can not consent to assault -- whether it is anticipated or not.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 03:00 PM on August 16, 2007

Specific exception, as I said, jg.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 03:12 PM on August 16, 2007

(I'm bowing out after saying this one last time I promise) So "striking a batter with a thrown ball" is an example of an activity that is protected when playing a game, but criminal in general. And "striking a pitcher with a bat" is an example of an activity that is never protected whether in game or not. However, in the real world if doing the first incites the second, the do-er of the first is (at least partially) liable. However, by stepping onto the field, this liability disappears. To me, that seems silly.

posted by chmurray at 03:51 PM on August 16, 2007

It's a slippery slope, but I fail to see the comparison between throwing at a hitter and charging the mound swinging a bat. 1. Throwing a ball at a hitter happens during the normal course of game, during a normal activity during the game. 2. Unless admitted you can never prove a pitcher is throwing at a hitter. 3. If you can bring criminal charges for throwing at a hitter the game simply can't be played. You kill the game. I can understand thinking it should be handled by baseball, but I have no problem bringing law authorities in either. And I really haven't heard a solid reason not to. You have to draw the line somewhere. This is as good a line as any.

posted by justgary at 04:12 PM on August 16, 2007

I think King Kaufman (warning, you may have to sit through an ad) has a characteristically insightful take on the whole thing, primarily focusing on how times have changed with respect to punishment. Good link in that article to the original NYT write-up (may require sign-in) of the Marichal incident. Man, has sports reporting changed.

posted by holden at 05:01 PM on August 16, 2007

As I feel I have beaten the proverbial dead horse on this one, I will follow chmurrays lead and say my peace and exit gracefully. Charging the mound and beanballs have become ingrained in the game "Ingrained in the game" has no bearing as I see it. If a player charges the mound with no bat and nothing out of the ordinary happens, then there is no charge of battery. If he kills the pitcher (or injures him severely), then charges should apply. This logically leads to the outcome of the attack being the determining factor behind whether charges should be filed. The catchers head wound doesn't figure here as it sounds accidental. Offerman had no intent to injure him at all. What happened was Offerman used a bat and broke the pitchers hand. If Offerman charges the mound and swings at the pitchers raised hand thereby breaking it. This wouldn't even have been in the news. I feel a ban or suspension fom the International League would set a good precedent to show batters this isn't acceptable. Most guys at this level don't have 15 years of MLB pay to fall back on like Offerman does. Legal action in addition to that doesn't seem reasonable.

posted by Ricardo at 05:20 PM on August 16, 2007

But the fact is he did injure the catcher, regardless of his intent Wholeheartedly agree. If I accidently run over my neighbor, I risk criminal charges, too. If a death occurs during the commission of any felony, it becomes felony murder.

posted by hawkguy at 06:30 PM on August 16, 2007

If I hadn't seen him, I wouldn't believe it. I like that the three kids over in the stands never get excited. Bad ass white kids from The Hartford.

posted by yerfatma at 08:56 PM on August 16, 2007

#1: I was not ready for Tommy John looking that old. This thread is killing me. #2: The last still of the slideshow shows Jeter escaping up the aisle. I'm sure this is somehow his fault. His escape, though, should put to bed discussions about his ability to go to his left.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 11:19 PM on August 16, 2007

What happened was Offerman used a bat and broke the pitchers hand. Having looked at the slideshow, Offerman only broke the pitcher's hand because the pitcher's hand was all that got between Offerman's bat and the pitcher's head.

posted by JJ at 03:37 AM on August 17, 2007

Don't bring a ball to a bat fight.

posted by tommybiden at 07:25 AM on August 17, 2007

Offerman has hired a man who offers... a different take on what happened.

posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 03:42 PM on August 21, 2007