11/05/24
April 26, 2007
Bloody mess: Schilling's sock called into question: Gary Thorne, who does play-by-play of Orioles games on the Mid-Atlantic Sports Network (MASN) and has a solid national reputation, having done lots of work for ESPN, brought up the saga of Schilling's bloody sock during last night's telecast.
I'll back Francona on that line. I remember being glued to the TV that night, amazed at what I was watching. If it is indeed paint, that's pretty pathetic. If it's not that Mr. thorne has some 'splainin' to do.
posted by SummersEve at 07:11 AM on April 26, 2007
I don't buy the paint story - simply because it makes no sense do it at the time. It would have zero bearing on winning the game. There is no advantage garnered by having a bloody sock. The surgery was no secret and does anyone honestly think the sock got in the head of the batters? One would imagine that what basically comes down to a trivia footnote wouldn't be scrutinized so much. I think some sportswriters seem to think that the Red Sox would do that for dramatic effect, or the whimsical explain-all 'PR' illustrating that some sportswriters might think the game is played only for them and with their job in mind. Ridiculous.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 07:21 AM on April 26, 2007
I, like SE can remember watching this game and being glued to the TV as well with amazement in what Curt Schilling was doing with the whole bloody sock and him pitching like man possesed. If indeed this was a PR stunt, then it's a damn shame anyone in the Red Sox organization would dupe the fans in order to win them over with the sympathetic vote. One thing though is that Gary Thorne so happens to be highly respected in his field, not some scrub journalist, so I see no reason for him to lie about this. The bloody sock was sent to the Hall of Fame and after watching years of CSI, MLB should pull a Grissom and conduct a DNA test and make sure it is in fact Curt Schillings blood, someone elses blood or if in fact it is just paint. Then again, if MLB can't even get the HGH thing straightened out, the questions about the bloody sock will probably never be answered. Good story though.
posted by BornIcon at 07:29 AM on April 26, 2007
It would take a lot of balls for Thorne to come out over the airwaves and actually name a person who told him the stain was paint. If he just blurted out he'd heard it wasn't blood, but had no name to back it up, then I'd fully believe it was a load of crap. But it sounds as if Mirabelli is probably shitting himself if he did indeed say this. As for the question of why Schilling would do something like this, if it did happen, who knows? Taking into account the legend this whole thing became, someone, whether it's Thorne, Mirabelli or Schilling, is going to have to explain themselves. And I agree with LBBs post above: Francona needs to pull back a little. Comparing a sock with a stain to other world-wide events is stupid. Remember, Terry, there are still quite a few folks around the globe who could give a damn about Curt Schilling throwing a baseball with a sore ankle.
posted by dyams at 07:45 AM on April 26, 2007
There is no advantage garnered by having a bloody sock. Absolutely, but you don't get a nickname like "Red Light" for nothing. Is it a leap to think that if it was fabricated it was not to draw attention to himself and/or his surgery, but rather the K ALS message written on his shoe? Players write messages on their uni's or hats in many. many games and they aren't highlighted by a close up shot like that one was. The shoe will be as much a part of the memory and the image as the sock is through history.
posted by YukonGold at 07:59 AM on April 26, 2007
I have no idea to think, but my understanding is: Curt Schilling is a pompous ass Doug Mirabelli is a pompous ass Gary Thorne is a lawyer I can't see them bothering to paint a sock, given Weedy's objections above (I can see Schilling considering it), but there's something to this. If nothing else, it produced a fantastic quotation from Theo: "I'm the GM of the team, not Jerry Springer. I couldn't give two shits about what was on his sock." On preview, the K ALS message does make things suspicious. Why put a message there unless you knew people would see it?
posted by yerfatma at 08:09 AM on April 26, 2007
The sock is in a glass case in Cooperstown. You could do DNA testing on it, for crying out loud. Easiest. Authentication. Ever.
posted by ssflanders at 08:34 AM on April 26, 2007
While watching the game all I could think of was blatant publicity stunt by the same ego maniac that posts about himself tirelessly in his very own blog.
posted by gradys_kitchen at 09:01 AM on April 26, 2007
And I agree with LBBs post above: Francona needs to pull back a little. If Francona said that to a giant national publication like SI, yes. If he said that on the steps of the Vietnam memorial, hell yes. He said it to Edes at the Globe. The Boston audience. For what it's worth, generally Boston fans were enthralled with the emotion of the series and the game, and a lot people in Boston thought it was amazing and "heroic" in the realm of the game. No one was comparing Curt Schilling to an NYPD officer on 9/11. We can differentiate incredible feats in baseball games over actual true heroism. I can't remember if K ALS was on his shoe from the beginning of the game or not, or if it was something he put on between innings when they realized his ankle was getting camera time. I could be totally incorrect, though. I don't recall the minute details and that entire series took a year off my life, easily. If authentication ever was actually required, the sock is in the HOF. DNA test it. Surely that would be easier to figure out than whether -insert your favorite HR record holder here- was juiced 5 years ago.
posted by jerseygirl at 09:03 AM on April 26, 2007
I can't remember if K ALS was on his shoe from the beginning of the game or not, or if it was something he put on between innings when they realized his ankle was getting camera time. I don't remember it not being there. Don't you have the full game box set jg? Queue it up!
posted by YukonGold at 09:15 AM on April 26, 2007
posts about himself tirelessly in his very own blog I'm hardly Curt's biggest fan, but plenty of athletes have blogs and they tend to post about themselves because . . . it's a blog. Also, I find Curt's blog to be a really interesting insight into the mind of an athlete during competition. Check out the most recent post and compare it with the local Boston or Baltimore sports stories today. The sports pages have recaps of the game you saw. Schilling at least offers something more. jg, I don't remember if it was there the whole time either. What you're saying sounds familiar. I'm being buffeted by the winds here.
posted by yerfatma at 09:17 AM on April 26, 2007
The 'K ALS' inscribed on the side of his shoe was indeed there the moment he stepped on the mound.
posted by BornIcon at 09:20 AM on April 26, 2007
For what it's worth, generally Boston fans were enthralled with the emotion of the series and the game, and a lot people in Boston thought it was amazing and "heroic" in the realm of the game. Oh, sure, I get it, and Francona made his own disclaimer. It's just that the phrase "...one of the most incredible feats I ever witnessed" made me chuckle. In the context of the game of baseball, sure, but I'd think even Francona would have seen things outside the game of baseball that would make a bloody sock look a lot less incredible.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:22 AM on April 26, 2007
I also remember watching that game live and wondering two things: 1. If that was real blood, why did it stay bright red for the entire game and not dry up and get that brown-ish color blood turns to after about 10 minutes? and 2. If it stayed red because it was still oozing and fresh, then why didn't the stain get any bigger? Maybe now these questions that bothered me so will finally be answered...
posted by MAYANKEE at 09:28 AM on April 26, 2007
If NBC doesn't re-up Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip, I really hope they develop a Law and Order: Bloody Sock Unit to fill that timeslot. I want MAYANKEE as the lead character, an inquisitive detective with a thirst for knowledge but a passive approach to recovery evidence to solve the case.
posted by jerseygirl at 09:36 AM on April 26, 2007
"What we're going through today as a nation, you hate to use a word like heroic on the field, but what Schill did that night on the sports field was one of the most incredible feats I ever witnessed," Francona said. If you hate to use the word "heroic," then don't. I, too, smell something rotten in FenPark. I don't see what Thorne could possibly have to gain by simply making this up. Maybe Mirabelli was joking, but Thorne's a pro -- he wouldn't just blurt this out unless he thought it was the truth. Maybe he's hopped on goofballs or something.
posted by wfrazerjr at 09:39 AM on April 26, 2007
Maybe now these questions that bothered me so will finally be answered... Sorry MAYANKEE but with a name like your's, I'm sure your still questioning whether Boston actually came back to win four in a row in that series. Any Yankee fan would question any and everything that has to do with Boston, especially with the start they're having this year. It's better to talk about the past than deal with the present, at least for the moment because even though I despise the Yanks even I can't count the Evil Empire out....just yet.
posted by BornIcon at 09:39 AM on April 26, 2007
I'm hardly Curt's biggest fan, but plenty of athletes have blogs and they tend to post about themselves because . . . it's a blog Got any examples of other athletes who aren't paid by a news service to do so? Also, you confuse blog with diary. It would be one thing if a fan blogged about Schilling, just as I might blog about music or politics, but when everything is self directed .. well that's downright self-promoting. Also, admittedly I am being hard on Curt because I am a incurable homer. Anyone not a Tiger in the AL can fall prey to my anonymous online ranting.
posted by gradys_kitchen at 09:40 AM on April 26, 2007
re: the KALS thing, the photo on this page doesn't have it. i did a quick search and the only photos i've seen with the letters on the shoe i assume were taken during the world series because he's wearing white pants. were they there at all during the ALCS game?
posted by goddam at 09:49 AM on April 26, 2007
posted by jerseygirl at 09:55 AM on April 26, 2007
"What we're going through today as a nation, you hate to use a word like heroic on the field, but what Schill did that night on the sports field was one of the most incredible feats I ever witnessed," Francona said Uhhhhh, am i missing something here? I do more incredible feats daily.
posted by TelamarketersBeware at 10:18 AM on April 26, 2007
If that isn't blood, then it's some damn good Hollywood-caliber fake shit, not the cheap crap you get at Spencer's Gifts for Halloween. I tend to side with Thorne, though, as I can see Mirabelli being involved in just such a shell game, especially with a class-A dupe like Thorne. If Mirabelli told me the sky was blue and the Monster was Green, I'd check it out before I passed that info on to anybody else. In fact, if Mirabelli was any fuller of shit, he'd look like this guy. TB, unless you're suffering from some horrible affliction which makes just getting out of bed every day a heroic effort, then you just made another in a string of remarkably asinine statements. And if you are suffering from such an affliction, congratulations on making it out of bed today.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 10:18 AM on April 26, 2007
Transcript from the game: "Jim Palmer: He's 40 years old. He asked the Red Sox to pick up an option for next year. And Theo Epstein said we're not in the business of picking up options for 41-year old pitchers, but if you pitch well, we'd love to have you back. Gary Thorne: 0-2 delivery in the dirt. Palmer: Of course, he announced it on his blog. Thorne: Oh yeah. Well nothing's done by Curt Schilling unless it's on his blog. Palmer: Well, there's a great line here. It says "No mere sports reporter could hope to be as authoritative on the subject as Schilling himself. For the avid fan, reading Schilling on Schilling may offer the sort of enlightment an art historian might expect if a diary were to suddenly be discovered in which Rembrandt set down self-critical evaluations of every brush stroke shortly after removing his smock and cleaning his brushes." That was an editorial in the Globe ... Thorne: And there was no puncutation in that by the way. Palmer: No, no. Thorne: Bako's got a 1-2 count here. Palmer (laughs): Well, 2 strikes, 2 outs, I had to get it in there in a hurry. Thorne: It's good. Palmer: But the Globe's just talking, I mean that's Curt. Thorne: Well, the press hates him in Boston -- Palmer: Yeah. Thorne: -- because he doesn't cooperate. 1-2 delivery and that one's taken in the dirt. The great story we were talking about the other night was that famous red stocking that he wore when they finally won, the blood on his stocking. Nah. It was painted. Doug Mirabelli confessed up to it after. It was all for PR. Two ball, two strike count. Palmer: Yeah, that was the 2004 World Series. Thorne: Yeah. Palmer: That second appearance. Thorne: 2 and 2, 2 down. Orioles struggling here just trying to get somebody on and get something going against him. He wanted that call, didn't get it, did a little jump step, 3-2 count." ---------------------- Thorne also said about Schilling of how "the press hates him up in Boston" because he does not cooperate with them and talks to the fans directly via his blog. Jim Palmer, Thorne´s partner has mentioned earlier in the interview that it had been Nolan Ryan who who gave Curt the "straight talk" that got his career back on track when in fact it had been Roger Clemens. So why the lies? --------------------- These two seem have a conspiracy vs. Curt Schilling! I would do a DNA test on the sock, and if it is in fact blood, with that proof I´d sue Thorn for slander.
posted by zippinglou at 10:24 AM on April 26, 2007
To me I see it as less of a PR stunt and more of a psychological stunt. The hitters see this "man possessed", who is bleeding out of his surgically repaired ankle, pitching through the pain to dominate a game.
posted by yehyeh at 10:30 AM on April 26, 2007
I didn't see the game. I listened on the radio. I don't have an opinion on the makeup of the red stuff on Schilling's sock. My question would be, "Who is going to pay for a DNA test?" -- Even if the Hall of Fame WAS interested in proving how easily they can be duped by a garment they held in their own hands, they are a not-for-profit organization that does not have spare funds for conducting DNA tests on their artifacts. -- MLB has no incentive to conduct DNA tests. People are talking about baseball, and creating a legend. MLB could care less what is actually on the sock. -- The Boston club's response to the story ranges from indignance to militant apathy. And as long as the sock is a story, everyone is being reminded of their remarkable run in 2004. Don't see them (or Schilling or Mirabelli individually) bothering with this. -- The Yankees could do it out of spite. I don't see the PR angle to it. I only see it making them look bad. Especially if the results were "blood." They just want that series to go away. So we're really down to the individuals who have credibility on the line -- Thorne and whatever other odd person who has publicly declared they believe it's paint. Even if they had the motivation and the wherewithall to do the testing -- which I am guessing is not cheap -- they still have the issue of getting possession of the sock for the purpose of testing. Don't hold your breath for the exciting scientific conclusion of this story.
posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 10:34 AM on April 26, 2007
Got any examples of other athletes who aren't paid by a news service to do so? I think Paul Shirley started out that way and then got picked up by NBA.com, but I'm not sure. There are plenty of college players who do. What does it matter what site the blog appears on as long as the author cares and keeps it updated?
posted by yerfatma at 10:34 AM on April 26, 2007
What kind of idiot would bring up some crap like this on Curt. TBH hey man i know what the dude went through and i know it must have been painfull. I have a torn tendon in my right knee and i'm playing basketball, wich is a lot more work than pitching, every damn day. It's getting worse and i don't give a crap. It's not bleeding because i hav'nt had surgery yet. I know a guy who laserated his spleen and broke a few of his ribs by crashing on a dirt bike. In one week he was back on it. I tore my achilleas tendon, sprained my ankle, and bruised my tail-bone on a bike crash and the next day started and finished a competative basketball game. What i'm tring to get at is if a bleeding ankle is the most incredible thing Francona has seen, than he needs to turn on the TV.
posted by TelamarketersBeware at 10:45 AM on April 26, 2007
Jeff Idelson, Vice President of Communications and Education for the Baseball Hall of Fame, said the Hall has no reason to doubt the authenticity of the bloody sock Curt Schilling wore in Game 2 of the 2004 World Series against the St. Louis Cardinals. Idelson was in the visitors' clubhouse after the Sox won the World Series and asked Schilling if he would be willing to donate the specially designed shoe he wore in the game, the one in which he had inscribed "K-ALS" on the back. That was of particular interest to the Hall, Idelson said, because two Hall of Famers -- Lou Gehrig and Jim "Catfish" Hunter -- died of ALS; indeed, the disease is commonly known as Lou Gehrig's disease. Schilling handed Idelson the shoes, then said: "How about the sock?" Idelson readily accepted, and later that fall, the parents of Schilling's wife, Shonda, drove to Cooperstown and delivered the socks. "We have no reason to doubt anything," Idelson said. "Curt has a pretty profound respect for the history of the game, and is cognizant of his role in it. We have known him only as someone of outstanding character." The shoes and sock are displayed in the Hall's World Series exhibit. "And three years later," Idelson said, "the blood stain that once was red is now a hue of brown, which is what happens to blood over time." link
posted by justgary at 11:06 AM on April 26, 2007
If NBC doesn't re-up Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip, I really hope they develop a Law and Order: Bloody Sock Unit to fill that timeslot. I want MAYANKEE as the lead character, an inquisitive detective with a thirst for knowledge but a passive approach to recovery evidence to solve the case. CSI: Cooperstown. I can think of a couple of cases I'd like them to investigate. I'm pretty sure this sock never gets tested. MLB wants the sock to have blood on it so there's no reason to test it and any controversy around it just keeps people talking about it.
posted by tron7 at 11:11 AM on April 26, 2007
Dr. Bill Morgan, the orthopedist who performed the innovative procedure on Curt Schilling's ankle that allowed him to pitch in the 2004 postseason, was dumbfounded to learn that Orioles broadcaster Gary Thorne, citing Sox catcher Doug Mirabelli as his source, said the blood on Schilling's game socks were not real. "C'mon," Morgan said today from the Fallon Clinic in Worcester, "we all know what the reality is. I don't know where that comes from. "I drilled a whole bunch of holes in the guy's ankle when we put the sutures in, we put a dressing on them, and the blood soaked through the dressing. The sock is like a sponge. It doesn't take a whole lot of blood, but there's like a capillary effect.'' Was Schilling bleeding profusely? "Hey, my definition of profusely and yours may be very different,'' he said. "I operate every day. To me, a pint of blood a second may be bleeding profusely. "Anyone who's ever had stitches knows there's going to be oozing from the wound. I put a bunch of stitches in the guy, and then he had to go out there and pitch at a professional level. The sutures were tugging at the skin, it opened up a little bit. The thing expanded right before our eyes.'' Morgan said he repeated the procedure before Schilling pitched in Game 6 of the ALCS against the Yankees in the World Series, before Schilling pitched Game 2 against the Cardinals. "The exact same thing was done,'' Morgan said. "We took the sutures out after the first game, because we were worried about infection. The second game, we put the sutures in, there was some bleeding, we applied a dressing, it oozed through.'' The World Series sock is now on exhibit at Cooperstown. "I would love to have the bloody sock in my cellar,'' said Morgan, who was the Sox team doctor at the time but now does work for three professional sports teams in Worcester: the Sharks, the Tornadoes and the Surge. "Don't think I didn't say to Schill, 'Where's the sock?' Unfortunately, I don't have it.'' link picture
posted by justgary at 11:27 AM on April 26, 2007
If NBC doesn't re-up Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip, I really hope they develop a Law and Order: Bloody Sock Unit to fill that timeslot. I want MAYANKEE as the lead character, an inquisitive detective with a thirst for knowledge but a passive approach to recovery evidence to solve the case. But he also needs to add some corny shit like: "the game is afoot" at the beginning of the episode for the Caruso-esque line to kick it off.
posted by chris2sy at 11:33 AM on April 26, 2007
Gordon Edes doesn't do stories with multiple sources?
posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 11:36 AM on April 26, 2007
Even if Schilling's bloody sock is really a bloody sock, I still think Mirabelli probably did tell Thorne that it was just paint. Anyway as justgary's link has pointed out, we will never know if it was paint/blood during the game. Schilling had control of the evidence, so the chain of custody has been broken. So much for CSI! Anyway, I would like to think it was blood, and I wish other people would be more cooperative in allowing such legends to develop.
posted by bperk at 11:45 AM on April 26, 2007
Gordon Edes doesn't do stories with multiple sources? At this point he probably just shapes the bullet points the Sox front office faxes over.
posted by yerfatma at 11:46 AM on April 26, 2007
"Thorne: -- because he doesn't cooperate. 1-2 delivery and that one's taken in the dirt. The great story we were talking about the other night was that famous red stocking that he wore when they finally won, the blood on his stocking. Nah. It was painted. Doug Mirabelli confessed up to it after. It was all for PR. Two ball, two strike count. Palmer: Yeah, that was the 2004 World Series. Thorne: Yeah. Palmer: That second appearance." Game 6 ALCS = Blood Game 2 WS = Paint He realized how much camera time his ankle got in the ALCS that he went and painted it for the World Series to draw more attention for ALS. Is that so hard to figure out?
posted by GOD at 11:49 AM on April 26, 2007
What's up with the Francona-bashing? * He clearly couched his statement in the world of sports, and set it apart from true heroism in the greater world. The implication that he did not do so is intellectually dishonest. It is obvious that he meant the feat was incredible in the sporting world, not in all of human history. * He said "you hate to use a word like heroic", and then substituted the word "incredible" instead - he didn't say it was one of the "most heroic feats", he said it was one of the "most incredible feats". In essence, he agrees that "heroism" is not the appropriate word to describe Schilling's effort. * Finally, he qualified the statement by saying it was one of the most incredible feats that HE had ever witnessed on the field. Not you, not me, not the nation, not the world, but Terry Francona. He should get out more? To see what, the Ironman Triathalon? As for this ridiculous paint claim, look at the (gory) picture of Schilling's post-op ankle and apply Occam's Razor. Isn't the simplest possible explanation that the wound bled while he was pitching?
posted by Venicemenace at 11:51 AM on April 26, 2007
He realized how much camera time his ankle got in the ALCS that he went and painted it for the World Series to draw more attention for ALS. Is that so hard to figure out? Well, what I have a hard time figuring out is this: if his ankle was leaking blood in his October 19th start, given the trauma it was put through, how could it have healed up completely by October 24th, and why would he want a splash of wet paint that close to an open wound?
posted by Venicemenace at 11:58 AM on April 26, 2007
What's up with the Francona-bashing? Who's Francona-bashing? All I said was that if a bloody sock was one of the most incredible things he'd ever seen, he needs to get out more. In case it wasn't clear, "needs to get out more" is one of those expressions that's not meant to be taken literally, as in, "Terry Francona owes it to me to get out more!!!" or, "Terry Francona needs to get out more or he's gonna die!!!"
posted by lil_brown_bat at 12:03 PM on April 26, 2007
Sure, Mirabelli told Thorne it was just paint, as a joke or to get a rise out of him or to get some stink up or maybe, just maybe, to get him to say something about it on the air. Of course he's denying it now that it's a storm in a teacup. It wouldn't spark any outrage if Thorne hadn't made it up out of whole cloth. What motive would Thorne have for inventing this and implicating Mirabelli? To rally Boston fans, and maybe the team, against the opposition? Mirabelli played him. He must be a real hero to newspaper columnists and radio hosts all over Massachusetts, giving them something a little more interesting to talk about than the Red Sox.
posted by Hugh Janus at 12:13 PM on April 26, 2007
LBB, I am familiar with figurative language. I just didn't get the point of your quip, nor did I agree with those who criticized Francona's comment more directly. He made a fairly innocuous statement.
posted by Venicemenace at 12:36 PM on April 26, 2007
Even though I wouldn't put it past Schilling to pull a fake blood stunt to get more air time, I don't doubt that the blood was real. Maybe he exaggerated it a little bit, but the guy did have stitches in his ankle. What I didn't like was how everyone was so amazed during and after the games he pitched, as if it was some heroic act and he was a special amazing case for playing hurt. I know I've said this on here before, but show me one major league pitcher who doesn't take the mound in that condition. It's the playoffs! People can handle a little pain. The other thing I didn't like, and yes, this is because I just plain don't like the Sox or Schilling, is that the injury meant that there was going to be a pro-Schilling story either way. If he got shelled, as he did in Game 2, it's a built-in excuse. It's not Curt's fault, it's the injury! If he wins, as he did in Game 6 (when I'm pretty confident any of us would've had a good shot of beating the Yankees, the way they had completely shut down and given up at that point. A theme in the last several years... Great leadership, Torre!), he's a hero for pitching through an injury. Honestly, I respect the guy for going out and pitching well, but come on. He was just going out and doing his job. This is probably going to end up putting him in the hall of fame though. As with everything else these days, it got blown way out of proportion and ended up annoying the shit out of me. So even though it's now being called into question, I'm not a big fan of the fact that it's in the news again. And don't you guys even watch CSI? They don't need an expensive DNA test, all they need is a swab and that liquid you drip on it. If it's blood, it turns bright pink! Magic!
posted by Bernreuther at 12:42 PM on April 26, 2007
This is probably going to end up putting him in the hall of fame though. Actually, helping the Arizona Diamondbacks AND Boston Red Sox win a World Series is what's going to put him in Cooperstown, which he deserves. People may not like Schilling but you still have to give credit where credit is due. If Craig Biggio can get into the Hall of Fame for hitting doubles (Biggio was a doubles machine), Schilling is a 'shoe' in.
posted by BornIcon at 12:49 PM on April 26, 2007
I know I've said this on here before, but show me one major league pitcher who doesn't take the mound in that condition. It's the playoffs! People can handle a little pain. So you're saying that Joel Zumaya's wrist injury sustained while playing too much Guitar Hero was a more serious condition than this? Zumaya sat out last year's ALCS with a video game-induced owie.
posted by Venicemenace at 12:56 PM on April 26, 2007
Yeah, Venice, but Zumaya's an idiot. I mean, c'mon -- if you were in his place, about to pay in the ALCS, with that level of "injury", would you have sat out? I'm willing to bet not. I don't doubt the blood on the sock, and I don't question that Schilling sucked it up, but wouldn't that be more typical than what Zumaya did?
posted by lil_brown_bat at 01:14 PM on April 26, 2007
BornIcon, by his own admission, Schilling needs a couple more very good to dominant years to merit Hall consideration. He's at what... 210 wins now? How many Cy Youngs does he have? He also wasn't the most valuable pitcher on either of those championship teams. (Well, not in the playoffs anyway.)
posted by Bernreuther at 01:18 PM on April 26, 2007
I basically agree, LBB. I've sustained some serious cases of PlayStation thumb in my day, so I have sympathy for Zumaya's plight, but I'd like to think that I would have sucked it up at game time, and that most athletes would. Still, Bernreuther issued a challenge and Zumaya was the first name that came to mind...
posted by Venicemenace at 01:20 PM on April 26, 2007
Heroics in the same sentance as Baseball or sports in general is a bit of an exaggeration. The only thing in sports I can think of that I can consider heroic is Pat Tillman giving up a fat NFL contract to serve his country at the cost of his life. Nothing that happens on the field qualifies.
posted by Atheist at 01:21 PM on April 26, 2007
Hey!! Drop it down a notch there killer. I've played Guitar Hero and GH2 and let me tell you, it's no joke. I've played that game on numerous occasions and after a strenuous round of playing Nirvana's Heart-Shaped Box, I almost couldn't open up my bag of trail mix. The horror.
posted by BornIcon at 01:24 PM on April 26, 2007
Could it have been faked? Sure. But when you look at the whole picture it's not very likely. Ever had stitches? They can bleed. Now pitch 6 innings and see what happens. Not to mention the picture, and what the doctor said. And how it's turned brown now. And why would curt, who seems like a smart guy, give the sock over when he could have kept it. It could be fake, simply because it's a possibility, but nothing in this thread points to that conclusion at all. What's strange is that Thorne said he was told this by Mirabelli a couple of years ago, and he brings it up now? And surely he knew it would be a big story, yet he just throws it out during a game? It wouldn't take much to prove it's blood. It would take more, however, to prove it was curt's blood. And since he brought it home, maybe he took a new sock and pricked his finger and put that blood on the sock. So you could still question the sock even if it proves to be curt's blood. Don't think people wouldn't. While watching the game all I could think of was blatant publicity stunt by the same ego maniac that posts about himself tirelessly in his very own blog. posted by gradys_kitchen A good number of the people who post on sportsfilter have their own blogs. You are writing on a blog. I've seen fans that hate curt that think it's pretty cool what he's doing. Just say "I hate Schilling" and get it over with. Or go watch gibson hit his home run a dozen more times. It takes a lot less time than watching someone pitch 6 innings. (by the way, I think gibson accentuated his limp to get a grooved pitch, just saying). Yeah, Venice, but Zumaya's an idiot. I mean, c'mon -- if you were in his place, about to pay in the ALCS, with that level of "injury", would you have sat out? I'm willing to bet not. posted by lil_brown_bat I'll go one further. I think when the majority of players upon hearing of the sugery would have backed out. Playing through pain? I can see it. The actual surgery? Nope. The other thing I didn't like, and yes, this is because I just plain don't like the Sox or Schilling... posted by Bernreuther That's kind of like starting your comment with "nothing I'm about to say can be trusted". Heroics in the same sentance as Baseball or sports in general is a bit of an exaggeration. posted by Atheist Nonsense. One can be heroic in the context of sports. It's up to the reader to understand that.
posted by justgary at 01:39 PM on April 26, 2007
He's at what... 210 wins now? How many Cy Youngs does he have? He also wasn't the most valuable pitcher on either of those championship teams. (Well, not in the playoffs anyway.) Actually, he was the World Series Co-MVP (along with Randy Johnson) when they played for the Diamondbacks in 2001 and that was only the second time that the MVP title has been given to more than one person, the last time being in 1981 when the Dodgers beat the Yankees. Also, being the ace of the RedSox team in 2004 (with Pedro of course) when they won the World Series for the 1st time in 86 years, that alone gives him a 'Come on in' pass right into the Hall.
posted by BornIcon at 01:42 PM on April 26, 2007
If Craig Biggio can get into the Hall of Fame for hitting doubles I have no idea why that would preclude someone's entrance. Especially since Biggio did a few other things well and played at some tough positions. I do agree with you on Guitar Hero though. It's worth missing an ALCS start for.
posted by yerfatma at 01:42 PM on April 26, 2007
If Schilling retired today, and kept his nose clean for five years, I think it would be close but he would get into the Hall. Does he deserve it? Not if Vida Blue doesn't. If you ask me.
posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 02:08 PM on April 26, 2007
That's kind of like starting your comment with "nothing I'm about to say can be trusted". Well, I'm not asking anyone to trust it, it's just my opinion. Just wanted to make it clear that it's both an opinion and biased. Icon, Given that Schilling was on the hook for the L in Game 7 till Rivera blew it, it's not a stretch to say that Johnson, with 3 Ws, deserved that MVP in 2001 outright. (Through the 3 playoff series though they were both kind of ridiculous.) In 2004 it was Lowe, not Schilling, who pitched out of his mind and dominated. (Man, it feels weird to say that.) But your opinion about this mirrors that of a lot of people that have hall votes, which is why he could retire today and get in despite not really having the overall stats to support it. A few more years? Sure. Now? It's a stretch, but the publicity he's gotten from 2004 is going to give him a hell of a boost.
posted by Bernreuther at 02:12 PM on April 26, 2007
Sousepaw, good link. I was just at that page checking my facts. I'm actually kind of impressed that I guessed Schill's wins dead on. The "similar pitchers" column a ways down the page is pretty telling. Very good pitchers, but not Hall-worthy. Yet.
posted by Bernreuther at 02:17 PM on April 26, 2007
Blood or not, the guy was pitching DAYS after having surgery on the ankle. You can't dispute that. He had a fresh wound that obviously could open up and/or ooze a little. He was playing in pain and was still dominant. That is the true story. The people from the HOF have stated that the blood on the sock has since turned brown, which proves that it is not paint. If they decided to paint the sock for game 6, maybe it was a case of superstition. Schilling felt that he did well in game 2 with a bloody sock, so he wanted to stay in the same rhythm. The main question is: Does it really fuckin matter?
posted by yay-yo at 02:31 PM on April 26, 2007
Very good pitchers, but not Hall-worthy. Except for the two that are already in the hall.
posted by justgary at 02:31 PM on April 26, 2007
2 of 10. I phrased that poorly, I meant that being similar to those very good pitchers does not make you hall-worthy.
posted by Bernreuther at 02:58 PM on April 26, 2007
For what it's worth, I don't think schilling is hall material yet, which will probably keep him on the mound a couple more years if he can do it.
posted by justgary at 03:22 PM on April 26, 2007
I agree with that assessment. And he seems to as well, which I think is a large part of the reason he wanted an extension. It's entirely possible that he could toss up another 20+ win season and title this year the way things are going... that'd certainly help his case.
posted by Bernreuther at 03:42 PM on April 26, 2007
Schilling's post-season performances put him in the Hall in my book. Plus do you really compare him to Vida Blue? Schilling BB/K is 695/3038. Blue's is 1185/2175. Schilling's win totals are hurt by some of those dog-meat Phillies teams he was on in the 90s.
posted by SummersEve at 03:48 PM on April 26, 2007
For what it's worth, here is a take on Schilling's Hall of Fame chances from The Hardball Times. Short answer: he's in according to the article.
posted by trox at 03:58 PM on April 26, 2007
That article is not really all that full of evidence, so I wouldn't say it's worth much. I'm a Yankee fan and I wouldn't put Mussina in the Hall. And it calls him sure-fire.
posted by Bernreuther at 04:04 PM on April 26, 2007
I saw the sock go "Back, and to the left.....Back, and to the left." I also think I saw another sock up on the grassy knoll, behind the fence, near the railway tracks.
posted by tommybiden at 04:29 PM on April 26, 2007
TBH hey man i know what the dude went through and i know it must have been painfull. I have a torn tendon in my right knee and i'm playing basketball, wich is a lot more work than pitching, every damn day. You're absolutely right. You playing basketball down at the Y, or at your local high school on a "torn tendon" (are you also home-med-schooled?) is far more impressive than Curt Schilling having a tendon in his ankle surgically repaired twice, and facing arguably the two best lineups in MLB mere days apart, with the AL Pennant and the World Series Championship on the line. And winning. I'm also sure that your pain is far worse than anything Curt Schilling endured during this time. What i'm tring to get at is if a bleeding ankle is the most incredible thing Francona has seen, than he needs to turn on the TV. Again, you're absolutely right. Terry Francona is a World Series-winning Major League Baseball manager who's spent his entire adult life playing, coaching, and managing in the sport. You're a fifteen-year-old kid. I now have no doubts that your time on this planet has given you far more exposure to miraculous things in the world of sport than anything that bush leaguer Francona's ever seen.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 04:36 PM on April 26, 2007
I know I've said this on here before, but show me one major league pitcher who doesn't take the mound in that condition. It's the playoffs! People can handle a little pain. They can't handle a "little pain" if the injury alters their mechanics to the point where they don't perform to the best of their ability, therefore lessening the chance their team wins the game and (in Schilling's case) continue competing in the playoffs. Cascading injuries is the "big thing" in sports analysis right now. The most famous case is Dizzy Dean and his big toe. This is why the mantra of "pitching through the pain" is such a ridiculous concept.
posted by grum@work at 04:57 PM on April 26, 2007
Doug Mirabelli's response, "What? Are you kidding me? He's lying. A straight lie," Mirabelli said, according to The Boston Globe. "I never said that. I know it was blood. Everybody knows it was blood."
posted by Jimshu at 06:10 PM on April 26, 2007
The sock is in a glass case in Cooperstown. You could do DNA testing on it, for crying out loud. Easiest. Authentication. Ever. Actually, the "bloody" sock was not given to the HOF until several weeks later. Though the sock supposedly is one of the most popular exhibits, it was not mentioned in the HOF exhibit for the Red Sox series win. Schilling's spikes were given immediately and are mentioned, but the sock reportedly was not donated until several weeks later. And I agree with GOD that the announcers are talking about the WS sock, not the ALCS sock that everyone was watching on TV.
posted by graymatters at 06:30 PM on April 26, 2007
It looks like Gary Thorne has had his generous helping of crow according to this story. There was a good viewpoint on the whole thing earlier today in Eric Wilbur's blog. Agreed that Schilling is an arrogant self-promoter, but he is still a pretty good pitcher. He's doing well so far this season, at least. If I were not a Red Sox fan, I would probably hate him with a passion, but I am, so I don't. I would think that Schilling's HOF chances are slightly better than 50-50 right now, but would improve greatly with a win total of 18+ and another World Series appearance.
posted by Howard_T at 09:43 PM on April 26, 2007
"Who is going to pay for a DNA test?"posted by The Crafty Sousepaw What kind of idiot would bring up some crap like this on Curt. posted by TelamarketersBeware If Curt Shilling has nothing to hide and wants to prove Thorne wrong, he has the money to pay for the DNA test and all the right to sue the guy for defaming him.
posted by zippinglou at 09:53 PM on April 26, 2007
If Curt Shilling has nothing to hide and wants to prove Thorne wrong, he has the money to pay for the DNA test and all the right to sue the guy for defaming him. 1. Thorne recanted his story. No one's getting sued. 2. If I was Schilling and telling the truth I'd tell anyone who uses the line "if you have nothing to hide" to F off. 3. Schilling took the sock home and didn't return it until weeks later. You will always have those who will believe it's not the same sock. Why bother.
posted by justgary at 10:35 PM on April 26, 2007
There HAD to be a second shoot(er). I mean sock(er). I mean shoot(er).
posted by tommybiden at 10:39 PM on April 26, 2007
The all-new Sock Shooter, from Ronco!
posted by The_Black_Hand at 04:53 AM on April 27, 2007
Whoa!! I honestly didn't think this many people cared that much about a sock. I prefer crew cuts myself but can deal with ankle socks but only in the summer while wearing shorts....and blood-free of course.
posted by BornIcon at 05:03 AM on April 27, 2007
By the way, when I made this comment yesterday, "The 'K ALS' inscribed on the side of his shoe was indeed there the moment he stepped on the mound", I was correct but it was in the World Series that he had K ALS written on the side of his shoe with a silver colored marker, which is in Cooperstown along with the bloody sock. Sorry for the misinterpretation.
posted by BornIcon at 05:44 AM on April 27, 2007
What is funny is that we discussed this at work for about 15 seconds before everyone (all sox fans) agreed with my general opinion. I don't care if they were all drunk and high with painted faces. Whatever it took to win the World Series. And if that is all I took than I am off to the Post Office to mail them a case of Schlitz and a can of spraypaint so they can stay on track this year.
posted by kyrilmitch_76 at 05:45 AM on April 27, 2007
Mirabelli's non-statement yesterday, wherein he said he denied everything at first because he didn't know who Gary Thorne was, seemed an incredibly weak way of saying, "Yeah, I said it as a joke and someone misunderstood." Especially liked the part where he said Thorne had to remind him of what was said.
posted by yerfatma at 06:07 AM on April 27, 2007
Nah, the best part was when he said he spoke with Mirabelli and said, "I talked to Doug, he was wonderful." Wonderful? Did Mirabelli perform a Shakespeare play? Was it Othello? It is the cause, it is the cause, my soul,-- Let me not name it to you, you chaste stars!-- It is the cause. Yet I'll not shed her blood; Nor scar that whiter skin of hers than snow, And smooth as monumental alabaster. Yet she must die, else she'll betray more men. Put out the light, and then put out the light: If I quench thee, thou flaming minister, I can again thy former light restore, Should I repent me: but once put out thy light, Thou cunning'st pattern of excelling nature, I know not where is that Promethean heat That can thy light relume. When I have pluck'd the rose, I cannot give it vital growth again. It must needs wither: I'll smell it on the tree. Bravo. Bravo. Doug, that was wonderful.
posted by BornIcon at 06:30 AM on April 27, 2007
Remember this, the surgery was voluntary. If you have the nuts, or the guts, grab an orthopedic surgeon, have them suture your ankle skin down to the tissue covering the bone in your ankle joint, then walk around for 4 hours. After that go find a mound, throw a hundred or so pitches, run over, cover first a few times. When you’re done check that ankle and see if it bleeds. It will. There was less visible blood in game two because we recognized the amount of bleeding from the first game and Doctor Morgan put extra covering to stop the blood from running to the bottom of my shoe as it did the first game. I’ll wager 1 million dollars to the charity of anyones choice, versus the same amount to ALS. If the blood on the sock is fake, I’ll donate a million dollars to that persons charity, if not they donate that amount to ALS. Any takers? link
posted by justgary at 10:15 AM on April 27, 2007
If it's a lie, it's a nasty lie. But... "What we're going through today as a nation, you hate to use a word like heroic on the field, but what Schill did that night on the sports field was one of the most incredible feats I ever witnessed," Francona said. ...someone needs to get out more.