04/19/24
March 29, 2007
Yankees' chain of command in question: The Yankees' chain of command, seemingly a source of stability the past year, has taken a major hit. The ramifications might not be clear for a while.
Hey, Howard, how can you argue with the success the Yankees have had over the past six years? (realizes the Evil Empire hasn't won a Series the past six years) Oh, nevermind.
posted by olelefthander at 05:50 PM on March 29, 2007
Hey, Howard, how can you argue with the success the Yankees have had over the past six years? (realizes the Evil Empire hasn't won a Series the past six years). But they've won the division the last 200 years or so. With steinbrenner looking older by the day, and now this development, it's going to get interesting in yankee universe.
posted by justgary at 06:15 PM on March 29, 2007
I hope Steinbrenner lives a long, long time yet.
posted by chicobangs at 06:21 PM on March 29, 2007
But they've won the division the last 200 years or so. Yeah, but they've spent like 200 times as much money as the bottom 25 teams in the league combined or something. So you have to decide if it's worth all that to buy a playoff loss. It made sense when they were winning four out of five. But now Cashman is right that they have to stop blowing up their farm system all the time.
posted by olelefthander at 07:04 PM on March 29, 2007
"But they've won the division the last 200 years or so" I don't follow baseball. Which team, the Yankees or Boston last won a league title or world series? Thanks for the answer people.
posted by Cave_Man at 08:24 PM on March 29, 2007
I don't follow baseball. Which team, the Yankees or Boston last won a league title or world series? Thanks for the answer people. The quick answer is the Boston Red Sox winning a World Series in 2004, with the last New York Yankee American League Championship in 2003, and their last World Series win coming in 2000. However, there is more to this story than the most recent championship. I'm a Blue Jays fan, and as a result don't much care for either the Yankees or the Red Sox, however, you have to respect New York. Twenty six World Series Championships to six for the Boston club. 39 American League Championship banners for the Bronx Bombers to 11 for the Red Sox. Since 1923 the record is New York 26 Boston 1 in World Series wins. Since 1996 it's 4-1 New York in World Series wins, 6 Yankee American League Championships to 1 Red Sox since 1996. Hell, the Blue Jays gave the Red Sox a 76 year head start and the Jays only trail the Red Sox in World Series Championships 6-2, the Jays lead 2-1 since they've been around. They're tied with Boston for American League championships since 1977 with 2.
posted by tommybiden at 09:20 PM on March 29, 2007
you have to respect New York. Twenty six World Series Championships to six for the Boston club. Well, you could replace the red sox with quite a few other teams and have similar results, especially when you're playing with the statistics (since 1996 it's 4-1 New York since 2001 it's 1-0 sox). But beyond the payroll, the yankee dominance, which can't be denied, is what makes this interesting. Who controls new york and does that mean for their future.
posted by justgary at 09:46 PM on March 29, 2007
I'm not "playing" with statistics. I'm stating factual numbers. I suppose you could replace the Red Sox with quite a few other teams and have similar results, but that wouldn't be nearly as much fun. As far as who controls New York, my money is on the rats and cockroaches.
posted by tommybiden at 09:57 PM on March 29, 2007
Yeah, but they've spent like 200 times as much money as the bottom 25 teams in the league combined or something. And how much more have they made? Where is Grum with one of his baseball prospectus charts when we need one?
posted by jojomfd1 at 11:46 PM on March 29, 2007
I'm not "playing" with statistics. I'm stating factual numbers. Sure you are. I'm not saying they're lies. Set the parameters to championships from 1920 to 2000 and the red sox are at 0. Off topic, it sucks that every yankee thread we have goes back to money and how much they spend.
posted by justgary at 12:12 AM on March 30, 2007
tommy, how many teams other than the Yankees have 6 World Series titles? The Cardinals and the Dodgers are the only ones that spring to mind.
posted by yerfatma at 05:39 AM on March 30, 2007
tommy, how many teams other than the Yankees have 6 World Series titles? The Cardinals and the Dodgers are the only ones that spring to mind. Well, the Boston Red Sox for another. Pot, meet Kettle. It gets a little tiresome to listen to Red Sox fans refer to the Yankees as all that is evil and bad with the game. It's kind of like Coors calling Anheuser-Busch a big bully brewery (for those of us in Canada, you might substitute The Royal Bank of Canada calling The Bank of Montreal The Evil Empire). The Red Sox and Yankees are the two biggest spenders in baseball, and have been at or near the top for years. At least New York has had success on a more consistent basis. More than anything else I find it amusing that Red Sox fans are constantly whining and crying about those big bad Yankees. I'll repeat myself and remind all that I am a fan of neither team, but this is the reality we find ourselves in in Major League Baseball. Other, less well financed teams better find a way to compete, or they might just as well curl up and take their beatings.
posted by tommybiden at 06:14 AM on March 30, 2007
Yeah, and Auburn should stop talking trash about Alabama, and Florida and FSU fans should embrace warmly every time they see each other. Bears and Packers? Ah, who cares who wins, as long as the boys are having fun, right? Red Sox - Yankees is a rivalry, one of the most heated in American sports. Add to that the fact that the Yankees are almost universally hated by baseball fans all over America, and yes, we talk a lot of trash about the Empire, and some of us whine more than we oughta. It's what happens in rivalries, and if you're waiting for it to stop, you might as well wait for the oceans to dry up.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 07:27 AM on March 30, 2007
Wow, Tommytrump, you certainly don't hesitate to trot out the hyperbole or paint with broad strokes! this is the reality we find ourselves in in Major League Baseball. Other, less well financed teams better find a way to compete, or they might just as well curl up and take their beatings. Really? Teams should find a way to compete? You don't say! It's not as if finding a way to compete is the entire point of sports management, or anything. If anything, recent years have demonstrated that while heavy spending can help a team compete, it's not the be-all end-all of MLB success. The Yankees were a lot better before they started breaking the bank in this century. The Marlins, Twins and A's have all found sustained success with small budgets. The Angels won a World Series with a relatively inexpensive team, then spent a ton of money and haven't won anything. What a wealthy team can do is ensure that it can sustain injuries and the vicissitudes of baseball more successfully than a team on a shoestring budget. But that's about it. The Red Sox and Yankees are the two biggest spenders in baseball Well, the recent spending spree undertaken by the Red Sox (no doubt thanks to the increased revenues since the WS run) mean that any Sox fan who complains about the Yankees' budget this year should be smacked. However, this is a very recent development. Last year, while the NYY and Boston were 1-2 in spending, the Yankees' budget was about 60% larger than the Red Sox' budget entering the season, so your assertion is rather misleading. It's like saying that the state of California and the state of Oregon are the two largest states on the West Coast in terms of area, therefore their sizes are equivalent. It gets a little tiresome to listen to Red Sox fans refer to the Yankees as all that is evil and bad with the game...More than anything else I find it amusing that Red Sox fans are constantly whining and crying about those big bad Yankees. You find it tiresome, or you find it amusing? Setting aside your vast generalizations and exaggerations, let me put it to you this way. Red Sox fans are among the most passionate in sports. Our rival is arguably the most successful team ever in the history of pro sports. Is it really that surprising that we would collectively harbor bitterness towards the team that has dashed our hopes so many times? Now, intelligent Sox fans tip their caps to the Yankees' achievements and their most talented people, like Cashman, Torre, and even Jeter, while the dumbasses say the kind of dumbass things that you would expect dumbasses to say. There are a lot of Red Sox fans on this board who can discuss the Yankees, and the rivalry, with a lot more sophistication than "Evil Empire spendalot homos". So don't insult us by lumping us in with the worst of Sox Nation.
posted by Venicemenace at 07:33 AM on March 30, 2007
Hey look - if you Red Sox and Yankee fans think that the other fans should view the relationship with the rationality, historical context and proper consideration that you believe it deserves - well, I have some moose pasture just north of Sudbury to sell you. It ain't gonna happen. You're hated. Live it. Love it. It's your only option. The rest of us basically are overwhelmed by Yankees/Red Sox coverage. I agree - the baseball is exciting, the rivalry unparalleled in the sport, and the constant stream of new, notes, quotes and speculation totally annoying. So enjoy your favorite son status. You're spoiled. And for the love of god - don't complain about the way you're perceived. It's completely predictable.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:34 AM on March 30, 2007
I don't have a problem with being hated. I embrace that. It's the meaningless wind-ups from people who don't even care. Not sure what positive discussion that would generate.
posted by yerfatma at 09:05 AM on March 30, 2007
Yeah, and Auburn should stop talking trash about Alabama, and Florida and FSU fans should embrace warmly every time they see each other. Bears and Packers? Ah, who cares who wins, as long as the boys are having fun, right? I never said that fans of a particular team should join hands and sing Kumbaya with fans of another team. Just that they should gain a little perspective and realize that the corporation that they're cheering for is about as culpable as the corporation they take such glee in deriding. Red Sox - Yankees is a rivalry, one of the most heated in American sports. Add to that the fact that the Yankees are almost universally hated by baseball fans all over America, and yes, we talk a lot of trash about the Empire, and some of us whine more than we oughta. It's what happens in rivalries, and if you're waiting for it to stop, you might as well wait for the oceans to dry up. Where did I say I wanted the crying to end? I just said I found it both tiresome and amusing. I don't hate the Yankees, but then again, I don't live in America. I respect them for their consistency and success. I save hate for priests, and others of their ilk that molest little children. I think if I wasted hate on the Yankees it would devalue the venom I feel for really evil things in this world.
posted by tommybiden at 09:16 AM on March 30, 2007
I don't have a problem with being hated. I embrace that. It's the meaningless wind-ups from people who don't even care. Not sure what positive discussion that would generate. Yerfatma: I care about baseball, it is my favourite sport. I don't think I could ever be accused of not caring. Venicemenace......nah, it's not worth it. Weedy, well said. And, I'm looking for some moose pasture, what can you tell me about this parcel near Sudbury?
posted by tommybiden at 09:27 AM on March 30, 2007
I think what's most annoying about the whole rivalry is that both Sox and Yanks fans seem to think that all of us should care about their teams. I manage a sports bar and am continually reminded by the loyal of both squads that the only games anyone should care about are those in the A.L. East. (my bar is in Nevada, for shit's sake!) God forbid I should try to dedicate one small TV to the Reds or even the local A's, if one of the big plasmas that inevitably shows the "big game" isn't directly in their line of sight. That being said, I'd much rather listen to a Yankee fan pointing out the obvious merits of having a lineup full of all-stars, than a Sox fan decrying it as unfair. It's like Goliath's little brother running to the rest of the baseball world and crying every time he gets a titty twister. Get over it, only 84 more years before it's your turn again.
posted by tahoemoj at 01:32 PM on March 30, 2007
Sox and Yanks fans seem to think that all of us should care about their teams. I've never thought that. Before the regime change, I did hope for a bit of empathy from non-Yankee baseball fans, but certainly since 2004 I would not expect the least bit of interest. Don't blame me or a Yankee fan, blame ESPN and Fox for pimping the shit and every casual fan who sits down for Sox/ Yanks in a way they don't for other games. only 84 more years before it's your turn again Meh, I'll take the Sox' chances vs. the Reds'.
posted by yerfatma at 02:28 PM on March 30, 2007
Sadly enough, so will I.
posted by tahoemoj at 02:33 PM on March 30, 2007
tahoe, you and the Reds, I hope you're very happy together. I'm not a wandering Baptist missionary or anything; you'll find no conversion effort here.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 06:32 PM on March 30, 2007
Anything's possible in the National League. The Reds led either the division or the wildcard for three quarters of last season. OK, I'm a homer.
posted by louisville_slugger at 08:11 PM on March 30, 2007
It gets a little tiresome to listen to Red Sox fans refer to the Yankees as all that is evil and bad with the game. posted by tommytrump Then find a link that discusses that topic and stop derailing this one, which has nothing to do with your comment. I swear, it's just about impossible to have a discussion about anything redsox/yankees. It sounds like you have a problem with red sox fans, yet those annoying types are the minority here on sportsfilter. The yankees have had a lot of success, and recent success has been under steinbrenner. He's getting older and the chain of command just took a hit. That's interesting to me for what it means for the future. I guess that doesn't interest you so you go on a rant about how unsuccessful the sox have been over the past 100 years, which has nothing at all to do with the topic. It's like you were just waiting for a chance to get that off your chest. It almost gets to the point that it seems useless to post about the sox/yankees. Ever notice none of our yankee fans ever enter these threads? I guess the choice is either to stop posting about these two teams or start deleting off topic comments. As for all the 'poor us all we ever hear about is the sox/yankees' you have no one else to blame on sportsfilter but yourselves. Let's talk twins, astros, jays. All you have to do is post something about them, but I guess it's far easier, and perhaps more fun, to complain about the sox/yankees.
posted by justgary at 08:18 PM on March 30, 2007
Ever notice none of our yankee fans ever enter these threads? Sorry, I was developing the battle plan for my courtship of Jennifer Steinbrenner Swindal. What did I miss?
posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 08:44 PM on March 30, 2007
.............. stop derailing this one, which has nothing to do with your comment. Justgary, I didn't derail anything, if you read the first comment in the thread you'll see it mentions "the evil empire". I'm thinking I stayed right on the rails of where the thread was headed. The second comment in the thread took a shot at the Yankees perceived lack of success over the last six years, and I don't think that has a lot to do with the where the chain of command of the Yankees is headed. Explain to me please where I headed this thread off the rails again ? I was just following the cars in front of me officer, honest. ......... you go on a rant about how unsuccessful the sox have been over the past 100 years.......... Nowhere did I go on a rant of any sort, I just laid out some statistics and offered my opinion. I always thought thats what Sportsfilter was about, fans offering their opinion. I never said the Red Sox have been unsuccessful over the last 100 years. Hell, I even noted they've won 6 World Series championships and 11 American League championsips in that time. I mentioned that relative to the New York Yankees, they have been less successful, but every team in baseball has been less successful than the Yankees.
posted by tommybiden at 09:40 PM on March 30, 2007
if you read the first comment in the thread you'll see it mentions "the evil empire". Mentions, yes, in an aside to an entire paragraph about the topic. I respect your contributions to sportsfilter tommy, so if I came off harsh I apologize. It would just be nice to discuss the yankees or red sox without talking about how the yankees buy championships or comments like "only 84 more years before it's your turn again" about the red sox unless that's what the topic covers.
posted by justgary at 10:01 PM on March 30, 2007
My apologies if you felt I was trying to derail the thread, Gary, sincerely, that was not my intent. Interesting how George had annointed his son-in-law as his successor, and bypassed both his two sons and his daughter. It will be fascinating to see how this all pans out, whether Swindal divests himself of his Yankee holdings, or holds on to his share of the ball club.
posted by tommybiden at 10:38 PM on March 30, 2007
No apology needed Tommy. I emailed you. As the kids say, it's all good.
posted by justgary at 09:53 AM on March 31, 2007
Interesting how George had annointed his son-in-law as his successor, and bypassed both his two sons and his daughter while they are both general partners, his sons have expressed no interest in actually running the team (although according to peter abraham they have been spending more time at spring training than usual this year). and george is an admitted male chauvinist, so i don't think his daughter is going to get a chance to run anything anytime soon.
posted by goddam at 10:42 AM on March 31, 2007
I'll bite my tongue. Sorry to enter your thread.
posted by tahoemoj at 12:32 PM on March 31, 2007
Hey, Howard, how can you argue with the success the Yankees have had over the past six years? Olelefthander, I don't argue at all with the success that NY (AL) has enjoyed over the years. As a matter of fact, I don't even envy the club for having done it with money more than building from within in the Steinbrenner era. On the contrary, I was trying to point out that Brian Cashman looked to be taking another direction from the exclusively high-spending ways and toward the way of building solid prospects in a well-stocked farm system. While the Yankees will likely remain the team to beat no matter which way they go, to see them build from within would be more interesting to me than just watching them seemingly buy title after title. I used the term Evil Empire in my first comment to this post. Many of us who are diehard BoSox fans (is there another kind?) use this expression with tongue in cheek. There is no hatred of New York; for many years it was envy at not having the resources that NY had. The game has changed with the coming of John Henry and his management team. Boston is now committed to spending what needs to be spent in order to field a team that can compete with NY. It was always possible for a Red Sox fan to respect and admire many Yankee players for their accomplishments on the field. Most of us still do. Finally, for those of you shopping for moose pasture, there are several parcels available here in tax-free southern NH. Most come complete with mud, melting snow, and liberal sprinklings of fresh and dehydrated moose poop. Come on up (or in Weedy's case, down) and check us out.
posted by Howard_T at 12:13 AM on April 01, 2007
Olelefthander, I don't argue at all with the success that NY (AL) has enjoyed over the years. As a matter of fact, I don't even envy the club for having done it with money more than building from within in the Steinbrenner era. On the contrary, I was trying to point out that Brian Cashman looked to be taking another direction from the exclusively high-spending ways and toward the way of building solid prospects in a well-stocked farm system. While the Yankees will likely remain the team to beat no matter which way they go, to see them build from within would be more interesting to me than just watching them seemingly buy title after title. This is why Yankee fans stay away from conversations about the Yankees here. Howard, I have in my head a long response to this, but why bother? Your observation is either born of a delusional oversimplification, a deliberate ignorance you wish to enjoy (with the assistance of many other Yankee haters) or you are trolling. Whatever way you cut it, I'm not getting involved.
posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 11:28 AM on April 01, 2007
Yuh, I don't think the Red Sox can boast anywhere near the homegrown talent the Yankees had during their most recent salad days, especially if you count any of the prospects traded for talent (as opposed to simply buying free agents). Posada, Jeter, Cano, Prodigal Pettite, Rivera, Wang, Philip Hughes, etc. The Red Sox homegrown talent currently at the MLB level is (off the top of my head) Youk, Papelbon, Pedroia and probably Lester by mid-season (Delcarmen and Hansen and Clay Buchholz may also make appearances). Honestly, the Yankees must have one of the highest percentages of home-grown talent vs. total starters. I have no idea how much of an advantage the dollars give teams like NYY, LAD, NYM and Boston in terms of scouting and talent development, but I suspect that's one of those places where money really does make a difference and why salary caps never quite balance things out.
posted by yerfatma at 01:43 PM on April 01, 2007
Yerfatma, As an aside, great point about how salary caps don't even everything out b/c of the $$$ spent on scouting and personnel development. I hadn't thought of that. Makes a ton of sense here. Thanks.
posted by brainofdtrain at 04:33 PM on April 01, 2007
Money finds its own level. You can try to legislate it away, but it will just get spent on GMs, scouts, facilities to attract players, etc.
posted by yerfatma at 06:22 PM on April 01, 2007
This is why Yankee fans stay away from conversations about the Yankees here. I think some part of it is due to ideas repeated so many times they become sports discussion cliches. That said, yankee spending comes into the equation in that the yankees do and probably always will have the highest payroll, and although it doesn't guarantee anything it certainly does help. Luckily for other teams they haven't always spent it wisely (ex. RJ). There were signs that this was changing however, which was bad news for other teams, including boston. Financial advantage plus smart signings equals good things for ny. The question is will this change things, and it's a question being asked on yankee discussion sites also.
posted by justgary at 08:26 PM on April 01, 2007
I think there are two issues to consider when regarding the face for Yankee ownership: the personality and the purse strings. The fact that none of the prospective heirs to the throne are well known by the public-at-large, do not get major face time in the tabloids, nor show up repeatedly in headlines (except in their departure from the race for the baton) leads me to believe that, whoever the successor, it will not be somebody who will meddle in the operation of club like George did in the earlier years. This is a critical element -- the Yanks have proven that when their baseball men are left to run the baseball side of things they are pretty good at their jobs. I consider it a secondary issue whether an heir will throw the kind of money back into the organization that George has. My impression is that the Yankees generate such a ridiculous amount of revenue at this point that if they cut the budget by a quantity on which you could live 10 lifetimes quite lavishly, it would be barely perceptible in the big picture. I guess there's a class issue as well, and probably some others that I haven't considered, but I see no red flags in this situation yet. I don't read the Yankee discussion sites, but I haven't seen anything yet that leads me to believe that this is a crisis situation or even beyond the level of "notable." Nobody has come into this thread and said, "Uh oh." Nobody really seems to know what this means, which in Yankeeland almost certainly means that it means nothing. Know what I mean?
posted by The Crafty Sousepaw at 08:56 AM on April 02, 2007
That's interesting to me for what it means for the future. I guess that doesn't interest you I may be off in asking this. But shouldn't it interest all of us baseball fans how the new chain of command does things. Won't that affect things across the board for baseball, not just the BoSox and Yanks? By across the board I mean salaries, ticket prices, merchandising, etc....
posted by jojomfd1 at 11:39 PM on April 03, 2007
It will be interesting to see if the ways of micromanagement return. It looked to me that Brian Cashman had committed the team to a rebuilding program by building up the farm system, while still maintaining a measure of excellence on the fielded team. As a diehard BoSox fan, I cannot wish the Evil Empire well, but I will say that it would be a mistake to reverse course on Cashman.