11/05/24
February 17, 2006
Oh, Those Wacky Snowboarders (SPOILER): "Jacobellis won silver, but should have had the gold. She was well, well ahead of Frieden, and the other two women in the four-rider final had fallen long before. Snowboarding is about style, though, so Jacobellis decided to show off for the fans in front of the grandstand near the end of her ride. But after she landed from her grab, she caught an edge, then went tumbling outside the blue line. When she recovered, she trailed Frieden over the finish line, then put her hands on her knees and held her palms up."
Ok a grab is hardly, "showing off for the fans" it's pretty much second nature when you go over a jump and it does help to stabilize a bit. The fact that she caught an edge upon landing seems unrelated to me. I guess i'll have to see it before I make a final judgement but saying a grab caused an olympian to crash is laughable.
posted by tron7 at 01:19 PM on February 17, 2006
At the penultimate crucial moment, she must have fatally forgotten that her Visa check card had been stolen.
posted by Skot at 01:21 PM on February 17, 2006
I didn't see it either, but just a grab is nothing. Now if she tweaked (method), poked (nosebone), or pointed (tuck-knee indy) that would be showing off.
posted by njsk8r20 at 01:24 PM on February 17, 2006
I like that she kept on trying. I don't like the idea of an athlete in the Olympics "coasting" since they already won the gold.
posted by bperk at 01:25 PM on February 17, 2006
Thanks for the word SPOILER, but I think you should've put a "[more inside]" in the FPP and put the actual spoiler inside the thread. Just sayin'.
posted by NoMich at 01:31 PM on February 17, 2006
NoMich, yes I should have.
posted by Amateur at 01:33 PM on February 17, 2006
I'll wait till I see the race before I comment. Which given NBC's programming choices, may be next week sometime.
posted by chicobangs at 01:33 PM on February 17, 2006
From the write-ups I am seeing, It was method, something she had not done in any of the 5 previous runs in shich she had no problems with this jump. It was probably a bit of showboating, but, with Chad Johnson, Basketball slams, and all the other *@#$ that goes with scoring/winning/succeeding in sports here in the States, it is not surprising. Maybe the next time someone sontemplates doing this, the image of a gold medal slipping through their fingers will pop into their mind.
posted by elovrich at 01:40 PM on February 17, 2006
Yeah ok there's no reason to throw something like a method but it's still super easy even for me. And this is a horrible bordercross course, are the consciously trying to kill all their speed?
posted by tron7 at 01:40 PM on February 17, 2006
tron, it is not a question of what was difficult, it is a question of what was needed. Is there any shame in winning with class? Just handing the ball to an official after a score, not running up a score, just making a lay-up rather than a high flying slam? And if it is just "youthful exuberance" then perhaps this will open some eyes, that winning with class and self-restraint can be its own reward, like not blowing an easy victory for the sake of some instant gratification.
posted by elovrich at 01:46 PM on February 17, 2006
I believe we can credit this to being stoned. Isn't that part of the training for this event?
posted by wfrazerjr at 01:48 PM on February 17, 2006
I saw it. I'm not a boarding expert, but it did look like showboating. The race was insane. There were three crashes, all without any contact between the boarders. This whole event has the Rollerball feel of short-track speed skating. I'm not sure I like it.
posted by qbert72 at 01:52 PM on February 17, 2006
Just handing the ball to an official after a score, not running up a score, just making a lay-up rather than a high flying slam? You can't compare a simple method grab to these types of things. Now if she did a 720 method, then you could. Not to mention the fact that there is a big difference between grabbing and tweaking.
posted by njsk8r20 at 01:53 PM on February 17, 2006
I saw it live, and I saw the instant replay. The CBC announcers weren't playing up any showboating angle (and were naturally curious about the two Canadians in the race that were way back - one having flown off the course and into/through the netting and the other never having gotten up after a hard spill). It didn't come across as showboating to me at the time. I'd have to see it again though. I may give the writers of stories the benefit of having had more time to parse the whole flub as showboating but it wasn't my first impression. In any case, high drama. Made for excellent TV. She was WAAAAY ahead, finish line in sight and OOps. YOU. SIMPLY. MUST. SEE. THIS. RACE.
posted by gspm at 01:54 PM on February 17, 2006
You can't compare a simple method grab to these types of things. Now if she did a 720 method, then you could. Not to mention the fact that there is a big difference between grabbing and tweaking. I admit I do not know snowboarding well enough to know for certain, but isn't a method grab tweaking? If she successfully completed the jump 4 previous times without doing the method, was it necessary? If it wasn't necessary, isn't it by definition showboating?
posted by elovrich at 01:59 PM on February 17, 2006
I posted the exact same time as you for the last one by the way so I didn't see your comments when I posted. There is no reason to throw a method in there but I'm saying it's highly unlikely that it led to her crash. As to your point, I don't think throwing a straight air method is showing up anybody or rubbing it in anyone's face. On preview: What njsk8r20(which for some reason I always read as ninja skater20) said. On preview the 2nd time: No just a method is not considered tweaking.
posted by tron7 at 02:03 PM on February 17, 2006
If she just reached down and grabbed the board and the board stayed parallel to the ground, thats just a grab. If she pulled the board up behind her and arched her back so that the board is at angle, that would be tweaking. (actually it's New Jersey skater, but I like ninja. Tell me Jubei, did you make love to the ninja girl?)
posted by njsk8r20 at 02:20 PM on February 17, 2006
Ok, ok, I yield, she didn't tweak it *smiles* Now, please just tell me, was it necessary or beneficial to do this?
posted by elovrich at 02:24 PM on February 17, 2006
In skateboarding it is because it helps keep the board under your feet. I always grab in a high ollie contest. However a snowboard is strapped to your feet. Grabbing does make you compress so maybe it is more aerodynamic and helps you go faster. But I'm just speculating.
posted by njsk8r20 at 02:30 PM on February 17, 2006
Well you can't do a method without pulling the board up. When you tweak a method is when you bone out your front leg and it shifts your body back in relation to the board and that's the tweak. (ninja, new jersey same difference)
posted by tron7 at 02:36 PM on February 17, 2006
Thanks for the primer on the finer points of this sport. SSX tricky is the closest I know of snowboarding. Still would like to know....was her manuver neccesary or beneficial?
posted by elovrich at 02:40 PM on February 17, 2006
Beneficial? Obviously not.
posted by Hugh Janus at 02:48 PM on February 17, 2006
Amped is better. In my opinion some sort of grab is necessary and beneficial. A method wouldn't be my first choice but it's better than grabbing nothing and just flailing til you land.
posted by tron7 at 02:50 PM on February 17, 2006
tron7, I think you are thinking of a meloncholy. I am old school though, I still call an ollie north a one-footer. elovrich, I have never raced snowboarding so I can't really say if it was neccesary or beneficial. On preview, tron7's point sounds logical. I still prefer coolboarders3
posted by njsk8r20 at 02:54 PM on February 17, 2006
So, is this akin to stretching a single into a double when you are up six runs in the bottom of the eighth? Or is it simply running the clock out and the sports gods decide to crap on your parade by making you fumble?
posted by elovrich at 03:02 PM on February 17, 2006
Shit that is a melancholy... is it both? I know you can style out a method i can't figure out what it looks like though.. On preview, damn i'm slow today: Crap Parade
posted by tron7 at 03:04 PM on February 17, 2006
Ask Jerome Bettis. Too bad she didn't have a Ben Roethlisberger of her own.
posted by GoBirds at 03:08 PM on February 17, 2006
This is a tweaked method.
posted by njsk8r20 at 03:09 PM on February 17, 2006
Um, the link just says image hosted by tripod.
posted by tron7 at 03:12 PM on February 17, 2006
What the hell. I tried it on preview and it worked. I get the tripod thing now too. Let me see if I can find something else. Ah, I see, it's redirecting for some reason.
posted by njsk8r20 at 03:17 PM on February 17, 2006
Copy the Tripod link, and paste it in a new window/tab. I can't say for sure if this is what she did, the angle was completely different. Can't we find photos/videos of the actual grab for our experts to assess?
posted by qbert72 at 03:28 PM on February 17, 2006
Jump Go to slide 8 and there is a picture of the jump and grab. I think if I posted this right. They call it a backside method grab on that site.
posted by scottypup at 03:33 PM on February 17, 2006
Now I know how some people feel when they read my stat-heavy comments in baseball threads. Ollie? Tweak? Method? Melancholy? I'm pretty sure I'll see a highlight of this somewhere soon.
posted by grum@work at 03:36 PM on February 17, 2006
Yeah, that's it, thanks scottypup. Here's another picture, a little earlier in the same jump, I think. She landed sideways, and fell...
posted by qbert72 at 03:37 PM on February 17, 2006
That's what i'm talking about that's a tweaked method as opposed to ninjask8rs 2nd link which I would consider a normal method but I think some people just automatically tweak them like that so I don't think it adds any showboatiness(not really a word) to her intentions.
posted by tron7 at 03:41 PM on February 17, 2006
Thanks, scottypup & qbert. From the way her body is twisted I'd say she's tweaking, so I guess it could be called showing off.
posted by njsk8r20 at 03:44 PM on February 17, 2006
The question for us non-snowboarders is was there a reason to grab the board at all? She had a pretty good sized lead and really without a fall had no chance of losing it. To someone who has never been on a snowboard in his life that looks like showboating. But if there was a reason for it then i can understand her doing it.
posted by scottypup at 03:44 PM on February 17, 2006
Thank you scottypup, thats what I have been trying to get at....guess my crotchety old self just couldn't make it come out all nice a nd simple
posted by elovrich at 03:49 PM on February 17, 2006
Yeah, it's a race after all, not a style contest. Can tweaking it make you go any faster? If not, why do it? Thanks for the expert opinions, guys! Also, the whole slide show is pretty good, you get to see the two Canadian girls' wipeouts. Ricker fell pretty badly, and was transported to the hospital after the race. Maltais' accident was really weird: she just flew off the course, apparently all by herself.
posted by qbert72 at 03:50 PM on February 17, 2006
Ollie? Tweak? Method? Melancholy? Thanks for the grandpa quote, grum. It gave me a chuckle. I feel just like you here.
posted by qbert72 at 03:55 PM on February 17, 2006
I guess she figured snowcross sounds like motocross and since they do tricks over the finish line... She just forgot she hadn't crossed the finish line yet.
posted by njsk8r20 at 03:58 PM on February 17, 2006
The bad thing for her is that if she never wins a gold she will may be haunted by this for the rest of her life.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 03:59 PM on February 17, 2006
I'm not yet convinced it was showboating but I want to see the video before I say anything else.
posted by tron7 at 04:00 PM on February 17, 2006
I guess she figured snowcross sounds like motocross and since they do tricks over the finish line... Actually, that's a great point. This event is begging for a finish line at the top of a jump. I want to see the video before I say anything else. *starts looking*
posted by qbert72 at 04:05 PM on February 17, 2006
Thanks for the grandpa quote, grum. It gave me a chuckle. I feel just like you here. Judging by your profile qbert, I am only a couple years younger than you. It's just that I have been skateboarding for 16 years. I have no intention of giving it up even though I am almost always the oldest one at the skatepark and some kids call me grandpa.
posted by njsk8r20 at 04:15 PM on February 17, 2006
when you see the replay tron, I guess the question I would like answered is; would she have done (or would you do) whatever it is it turns out she did (tweaked method , straight grab, Ollie, Larry Moe and Curly...whatever) if she were only in the lead by 5 or 10 feet? If she wouldn't have done it in a close race, then, in my book at least, it qualifies as showboating...
posted by elovrich at 04:16 PM on February 17, 2006
there is no way she would have tried for a method in a closer race. this "showboating" mistake cost her a gold medal. I watched some of the mens races last night and not 1 single boarder went for a grab. She was definitely showboating based on trying to do a method in a boarder X event with the substantial lead that she had
posted by madchad at 04:45 PM on February 17, 2006
I saw this thing live, or what passed for live on the CBC this morning, and it didn't really seem much like showboating at the time. It was really pretty subtle, what she did. Even more than that you have to remember that this is the sport, and styling IS a part of the sport overall and no one not even the Lympics can change that. If anything though I would have to suggest reconsidering the sport altogether. It just seemed so random to me. Sometimes in some heats there was someone who was clearly faster than the rest (like Dominique Maltais in her Semi heat), and that person can usually stay out of trouble. But if not - and the final is a great example of this - there is very little correspondence between success and differences in skill. I guess that's OK in a sport, but I prefer "OK, this person did X or Y better than the rest, and on this day that led to victory." In SBX it's random.
posted by mikelbyl at 05:02 PM on February 17, 2006
Too be a truly remarkable skiier/snowboarder, a ceertain degree of cockiness is vital. However, I live in a ski town(Resi Stiegler is from here) and as a skiier myself, talking to skiiers and "riders", you know the truly good ones: 1. Dont brag about "sick lines" and such and B. Always try to get the "gapers" sitting on the chairlifts to "ooh" and "aah" i.e; showoff.
posted by GoBirds at 05:17 PM on February 17, 2006
The non-snow-sports analogy that seems best is when a top WR is about to cross the line for a TD after a long run following a nice long reception. The WR will often take a couple of extra long strides or change his running pace somewhat or drag a couple toes before going into the endzone. That's showboating, but not the same as TO signing the ball before chucking it or anything. Does the WR ever screw it up? Sure we've seen fumbles and stuff on the line, truly lame results. And no one would recommend it for every time. But still, it's part of the game. And if it is so for WRs a little, then it is for snowboarders a lot.
posted by mikelbyl at 05:28 PM on February 17, 2006
TO is to Bode Miller as...ahh never mind, I like Bode, TO is a cancer to any team he joins. Not so for the kids we have skiing for the US. Brings to mind the fat guy on the Cowboys who dropped the ball at the goal line. Or Champ Bailey(I think) in this years NFL playoffs.
posted by GoBirds at 05:49 PM on February 17, 2006
mikelbyl; Using your analogy, if said WR fumbled while showboating and cost his team a Super Bowl victory, would he be castigated in this forum? If so, then it is the same in this case. I am not saying it will go away, just that I would like it to. As coaches 'round these parts say, "Act like you've been there before, because if you don't you may never get there again."
posted by elovrich at 06:23 PM on February 17, 2006
We had a laugh about it in the pub tonight. If it'd been one of our "competitors" we'd have been shaping a noose.
posted by squealy at 06:31 PM on February 17, 2006
elovrich, I get your point and for me personally, the guy who barely if at all betrays that he's just scored and hands the ref the ball is the guy I want on my team. I played rugby for god's sake - showboating is severely disciplined in that sport. By your OWN team members. Still - "castigated"? She made a stupid maneuver that was totally in line with the spirit of her sport, in a sport in which even winning is no indication of some innate superiority to anyone else in the race (or some who bowed out before the eliminations). Not that big a deal. It's about the context, and the context of the Olympics doesn't trump the context of the sport. Not THAT sport, anyhow. And in this sport, being a bit of a flake is celebrated, is part of the basic dna of the whole thing from the first snowboard maker (usually = Jake Burton) on down. Remember this is the sport whose first men's gold medallist was suspended, then reinstated, for having tested positive for pot, but insisting that it was second hand pot smoke only (and because the FIS doesn't test for pot so it wasn't illegal for them). This is a sport whose most recent men's halfpipe winner is called "the Flying Tomato". A sport where legends who pretty much invented the sport are still involved - like Mark Fawcett, Jacey-Jay Anderson's coach. So yeah, I think it's bush league when it goes wrong, but it's as much a part of the sport as a slam dunk is in basketball.
posted by mikelbyl at 12:08 AM on February 18, 2006
I don't know. I saw the race tonight and the fall (about a million times) and it was obviously showboating. Maybe it was not a 'look at how great I am' move. Maybe it was more of a caught up in the moment and so excited this is what comes natural move. But it was obviously unnecessary and obviously cost her the medal. She seemed to try to spin it at first, as if she did it because of difficulties she had with the jump. Who knows, maybe she wasn't even aware of what she did. In later interviews she admitted she probably took it too far. She also said she had no regrets, which is laughable. She wouldn't do it again. That said, I give her credit for dealing with the media and there stupid questions (how did it feel to see a competitor pass you?). And I'm not a snowboarder, so maybe I don't "get it". But other competitors said she took it too far, her own coach said she took to far, and her face at the end of the race didn't show a 'it's part of snowboarding' attitude. It showed disappointment in giving the gold away, which she did.
posted by justgary at 01:15 AM on February 18, 2006
Maybe I just don't get it in a sport in which even winning is no indication of some innate superiority to anyone else in the race . If it (winning) doesn't show some sort of superiority, then what does? Who is the "best"? Isn't that what competition is about? And if you show that you are the best, you should at least do so with a bit of humility, some would call it "class", I am not saying that you do not celebrate, that you have no right to be exuberant. It is a fine line and one that has gotten grayed over with excessive celebration being celebrated, at least here in the States. What I guess I chafe at is the 'in your face' attitude that has become prevelant. Again, perhaps it is because I am from a different generation, or my midwest upbringing, but I say she got her just desserts for her actions...
posted by elovrich at 01:54 AM on February 18, 2006
If this is just a part of snowboarding and is to be expected she's not admitting it at all. She seems coached. According to her she had no idea she was so far ahead, did so only for stability, thought the jump was a tough one, and has no regrets. I don't believe a single claim. "I was real excited and thought I'd give the fans something to cheer about." Now that I'd believe.
posted by justgary at 02:08 AM on February 18, 2006
I just now saw it and I'm a bit drunk but I'd call it celebratory more than showboating. My best guess is she looked back and got excited and tweaked too hard to bring it back. But yeah it was completely unneccesary. BTW the guy annonuncing, Todd Richards, used to throw backflips in boardercross events.... I could be wrong, i'm a little fuzzy. If it (winning) doesn't show some sort of superiority, then what does? Who is the "best"? Isn't that what competition is about? Snowboarders are strangely non-competetive as opposed to other sports. You will never see a snowboarder with a fierce rivalry. They want to win but they want to see every one else do well just as much and I think they are genuinely "stoked" just as much when they win as when the sport is furthered. The best: Shaun White is far and away the best in a competition but overall I think Travis Rice is better. Debatable.
posted by tron7 at 03:53 AM on February 18, 2006
I saw her interviewed by Costas and she said she was so excited and that was a part of it. She didn't say she had huge regrets, and seemed to resent the implication that she should have huge regrets. She came to the Olympics and won a medal - what could be better than that? There's not much difference between silver and gold. But though it was showboating and/or celebratory, I wouldn't say it was at all "in your face". It was excitement and fun - and style is part of the game. An unwritten rule, if you will. elovrich - as far as the competition goes, what I'm suggesting is that in most sports - say, speed skating - the fastest, best-trained, most experienced person wins most of the time. Yes there are freaky things that happen, but in general, you can have quite a bit of confidence that on any particular day, the winner wasn't just the winner against the competition but was objectively the fastest or best out there. In SBX it's more random than that. Lots of the people in the Semis in both men's and women's were NOT in any way objectively faster or better - they just had more luck in their run. There aren't many sports in which you can say that, when the implications surrounding victory are so limited.
posted by mikelbyl at 07:28 AM on February 18, 2006
I heard an interview with her on NPR and she made the comment she wanted to give the fans a show. So that is as much as admitting she was showboating. I'm not a ski fan so not sure what most snowboard fans consider a show, maybe that is it. For me seeing the American Flag raised in the center is the best show.
posted by scottypup at 08:38 AM on February 18, 2006
It was obvious to anyone with half-a-brain she was hotdogging, and the tortoise beat the hare, it was beautiful. The competitor that did everything possible to cross the finish-line first did.
posted by the red terror at 10:27 AM on February 18, 2006
I heard an interview with her on NPR and she made the comment she wanted to give the fans a show. So that is as much as admitting she was showboating. Her story has changed over time. I think after she saw the video she realized she couldn't stick with the whole "doing it for stability angle". In SBX it's more random than that. Lots of the people in the Semis in both men's and women's were NOT in any way objectively faster or better - they just had more luck in their run. There aren't many sports in which you can say that, when the implications surrounding victory are so limited. I know what your saying. There's a lot of luck involved. Crashes happen almost randomly. But jacobellis was world champion, right? And she was in the final run. One of the other girls won every run leading up to the final. So it shows at least 2 of the final 4 should have been and were there. In other words, maybe it is more random, but it's certainly not putting 20 boarders in a bag and picking out 4. Snowboarders are strangely non-competetive as opposed to other sports. Even when you get to this level? I'd say that with out being competitive you wouldn't even get to this level. The look on her face when she realized she had lost the gold wasn't a non-competitive one. There's not much difference between silver and gold. Oh, I disagree. The difference between first and second? Huge. And in this case, even bigger.
posted by justgary at 10:49 AM on February 18, 2006
The look on her face when she realized she had lost the gold wasn't a non-competitive one. I think the tears said it all. She knew she screwed up and she knew what she had lost.
posted by scottypup at 11:16 AM on February 18, 2006
In SBX it's more random than that. Lots of the people in the Semis in both men's and women's were NOT in any way objectively faster or better - they just had more luck in their run. If this is true, and if SBX is going to remain a medal sport, then perhaps it IS time for poker to get a shot in the Olympics. Randomness and luck are part of sports, but to say that the best do not overcome the breaks more often than not is to admit that this is a game of chance and not one of skill.
posted by elovrich at 11:33 AM on February 18, 2006
Snowboarders are strangely non-competetive as opposed to other sports. I just meant their less competitive than other athletes, and I think this statement apply's more to snowboarders as opposed to boarder cross.
posted by tron7 at 05:49 PM on February 18, 2006
Her story has changed over time. I think after she saw the video she realized she couldn't stick with the whole "doing it for stability angle". justgary hit that nail squarely on the head. When I finally got to see the video I couldn't believe she tried to use that excuse. She was hotdogging. I can belive her though when she said she just got caught up in the moment. She just learned a valuable lesson in discipline.
posted by njsk8r20 at 09:37 AM on February 20, 2006
Unbelievable. This is the Olympics. You finish the race. She lost a gold over showboating. Now she'll have to live with that the rest of her life. That would suck.