11/05/24
February 07, 2006
Is Detroit as deep as they used to be?: For several years the Red Wings were the team that aging superstars on sub-par teams came to to get a place on the Cup. Are they, or any team for that matter, as good as before the cap? Can they, or anyone, truely put together a dynasty team any longer? Or as in football will the cap suck talent away before it can happen.
posted by commander cody to hockey at 01:07 AM - 31 comments
Or as in football will the cap suck talent away before it can happen. Tell that to the Patriots.
posted by rcade at 06:37 AM on February 07, 2006
The cap should help teams stay together. The Rangers can no longer afford to buy all the talent. Now they are a good team ironically. Teams like Pittsburgh won't have to worry so much about their talent being bought out from under them ($11mil-Jagr). Nashville has been getting better year after year without much player movement. I look for them to be the next dynasty.
posted by njsk8r20 at 07:51 AM on February 07, 2006
The cap should help teams stay together. The Rangers can no longer afford to buy all the talent. While I understand the cap acts as a ceiling on the pool of available salary funds, why would that keep teams together? It only restricts the entire league's ability to maximize salary, not individual players.
posted by yerfatma at 07:53 AM on February 07, 2006
why would that keep teams together? Look at the limited number of trades this season. With most teams hovering just below the cap they can't really afford to throw a bunch of greenbacks at free agents. Lets play with some numbers. If the cap is $39, and there are, lets say, 25 players under contract. That would be an average of $1.5 per player. So most likely the superstar players would have to take a pay cut to go to a better team. Why would you do that when you can stay where you are and make more. Sure maybe you will do it at the end of your career to try and get your name on the cup, but by then you probably won't be worth so much.
posted by njsk8r20 at 08:28 AM on February 07, 2006
Tell that to the Lightning. They've already lost the Bulin wall (it was knocked down over the owners' lock-out, don't ya know), and could lose Brad Richards. The Avs lost Forsberg. Demitra left the Blues. The Leafs lost Leetch. I think it remains to be seen how the CBA will impact keeping a core group of players together. From what I can tell, as soon as you win the Cup, player values sky rocket and keeping the team together becomes difficult.
posted by garfield at 09:28 AM on February 07, 2006
What about contracts with incentives? Does that money go towards the cap as soon as the incentive is reached or is it added on at the end of the season?
posted by HATER 187 at 09:31 AM on February 07, 2006
I'm no CBA expert, but I think incentives are counted against the cap, being assumed they will be reached, and only subtracted when they can't be obtained.
posted by garfield at 09:42 AM on February 07, 2006
Yes, the Wings are just as deep, and they have good scouting to thank for that. They've lost some of their depth, no doubt about it, but they've added a few players who have exceeded expectations (Samuelsson, Lebda), and have a great rookie in Kronwall, who's just getting back from ACL surgery.
posted by adampsyche at 10:10 AM on February 07, 2006
Lets play with some numbers. My contention is that we do not need to: you added a cap to the league salary pool. All this does is shift where the supply and demand curves intersect (and leaves a dead-weight loss between the old intersection and the new); it does not change the dynamics of the market in any way.
posted by yerfatma at 10:24 AM on February 07, 2006
I can hardly wait for the Leafs to sign Brad Richards. It's been the plan since before the season started - Leafs have something like $16 million coming off at the end of this year and had targeted Richards or Lecavalier for a big contract this off-season. I see that one getting done.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 11:23 AM on February 07, 2006
The Wings have managed the team dynamic better than anyone else over the last 15 years. The idea of a salary cap should not cause them a problem. In fact, a salary cap may make them the best team in the NHL
posted by Wonka at 11:36 AM on February 07, 2006
I'd wet myself if the Leafs signed Richards. yerfat, wouldn't competition for talent be more fierce if more teams have the same amount of money to spend? Seriously, I'm asking. Economic theory is a glaring weakness of mine. more on: impact of salary cap and to comment on RedWings depth: their scouting success is uncanny, so I would think that though fewer established vets can hang around, the stable of youth will continue to overflow.
posted by garfield at 11:38 AM on February 07, 2006
Yes the wings are very deep look at the team even with the young guys taking over for the most part they are playing better I think,in this new nhl that what it is all about,Im also very happy to see Manny Legace getting a shot to be #1 that should of happen 2 years ago look at his numbers 22 wins,2.02 GAA,.918SV% 4SO they have a better chance winning a cup this year then they did when they had CUJO not saying that he is a bad goalie he is good Manny is Better tho LETS GO RED WINGS!
posted by sirtt22 at 12:01 PM on February 07, 2006
wouldn't competition for talent be more fierce if more teams have the same amount of money to spend That seems to make sense. Of course, now all teams (theoretically) could compete with the same starting amount, so it might affect where players wind up. My thought has always been a salary cap doesn't change the influence of deep pockets, it just changes where they are spent: GM and coaching salaries, player facilities, scouting, etc. Plus large markets will still have more advertising opportunities and external revenue sources to make them more attractive than a small market offering similar dollars.
posted by yerfatma at 12:07 PM on February 07, 2006
You know, people keep saying there'll never be another dynasty after whatever financial or labor calamity befalls any league, but someone always adapts to the new system faster than everyone else, and teams keep reeling off championships. Every dynasty I've ever seen has been "the last dynasty we'll ever see," and yet they keep coming, in every sport. Frankly, I'm tired of betting against it. (Weedy, you have filled my dreams for next year with hope and bunnies. I knew the Leafs were going to get some cap room, and they had an eye on some younger talent, but if they actually maybe might just kindasorta have a plan in place, that's a bonus. Now, all they have to do is send Mikael Tellqvist down to the crossroads to make that deal with the devil I've read so much about, and the Leafs might even have a shot next year.)
posted by chicobangs at 12:18 PM on February 07, 2006
Most major news publications picked the Wings to be the team hardest hit by the cap, & to fall from the top of the Western conference. As we have seen this did not happen & many of the “new” players have contributed more than projected. When you factor in the ability of the Wings to mine talent from Europe & get more from players they bring in via free agency this organization will flourish as long as the front office is kept together, mainly Ken Holland, who learned his trade from Jimmy D (Architect of the Islanders dynasty) who is still with the team & Scotty Bowman, who has a role in gauging future talent. The older core talent is still there & they have brought up future core stars. This team will be great form many years to come.
posted by directpressure at 12:26 PM on February 07, 2006
I think that the cap will still cause some thinning out of the talent pool since most teams will only be able to afford one or two "superstars" and stay under the limit. The Wings have been great at bringing young talent along and that means they still have some depth. Still I think the days of them (or anyone else) being able to put 4 or 5 future Hall of Famers on the ice at the same time are past.
posted by commander cody at 12:45 PM on February 07, 2006
I think that the cap will still cause some thinning out of the talent pool since most teams will only be able to afford one or two "superstars" and stay under the limit. That makes no sense. Where are the just-below superstar players going to go? Yes it will mean less superstars on a given team, but it doesn't mean the league's talent will be altered.
posted by yerfatma at 12:47 PM on February 07, 2006
Im also very happy to see Manny Legace getting a shot to be #1 that should of happen 2 years ago I couldn't agree more. In my mind he is one of the most under-rated goalies in the NHL right now and has been unfairly overshadowed for too long.
posted by commander cody at 12:49 PM on February 07, 2006
Where are the just-below superstar players going to go? Europe. Many teams over there will start mining the NHL for talent if the teams here can't pay as well.
posted by commander cody at 12:51 PM on February 07, 2006
The Red Wings obviously have a great scouting team, which guarantees them a certain level of success in the future. However, and I'm not certain if that's what's being said here, the Wings are not, and have not been since the 50s, a dynasty. A dynasty has to win the Cup on a very regular basis for a good amount of years. I'll let the debate open as to how many wins in how many years is acceptable, but for me it's clear that the Edmonton Oilers of the second half of the 80s are the last dynasty in the NHL. So we've been without a dynasty for 15 years, way before the new CBA. Also, it's an interesting discussion and all, but the linked article has nothing to do with it. It's just a game preview.
posted by qbert72 at 02:20 PM on February 07, 2006
Also, it's an interesting discussion and all, but the linked article has nothing to do with it. It's just a game preview. Actually there is a line in it about their penalty killing being a tribute to their depth, which is what got me to wondering if they can still be a deep team with a cap.
posted by commander cody at 02:26 PM on February 07, 2006
How close are European salaries to the NHL average? What is the NHL average and minimum? I'd assume if players were being siphoned to Europe the NHL would simply raise the salary cap. If the league can't claim the best players in the world, they'd have an even larger draw problem.
posted by yerfatma at 03:20 PM on February 07, 2006
If the league can't claim the best players in the world, they'd have an even larger draw problem. Excellent point.
posted by commander cody at 03:23 PM on February 07, 2006
Actually there is a line in it about their penalty killing being a tribute to their depth You're right. And it's not a game preview, the comparative stats at the bottom fooled me. My bad, move along.
posted by qbert72 at 03:28 PM on February 07, 2006
The only competition in terms of players' salaries in the NHL is the Russian Super League - by way of becoming a defacto plaything for the oil oligarchs out that way. If I remember correctly, one team had a payroll approaching $40 million US last year and was offering substantially more money to players than the salary capped NHL. Jagr and Ovechkin were among the players who left behind substantial offers from these teams to return to the NHL. Ovechkin stood to make over $1.5 million more than he currently makes now ($2.3 millon compared to his existing $900,000). But whatever. If you're not playing for the Stanley Cup, you're in a tier two league and the whole world knows it.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 03:43 PM on February 07, 2006
"Jagr and Ovechkin were among the players who left behind substantial offers from these teams to return to the NHL." Let us not forget that Datsyuk was in the same situation. Thank the hockey gods that he came back.
posted by wingnut4life at 03:47 PM on February 07, 2006
If you're not playing for the Stanley Cup, you're in a tier two league and the whole world knows it. Right, but the second that even comes into question, the NHL is shit outta luck in terms of revenue. So they have a large incentive to keep things that way.
posted by yerfatma at 04:01 PM on February 07, 2006
I'm hoping the league will be smart enough to raise the cap if the money gets to be too attractive overseas, still they haven't shown much in the way of brainpower the past few years. As for Datsyuk I almost lit a candle of thanks in church when he came back. He's the Wings next Stevie Y for sure! Here's hoping he stays as long as Stevie did!
posted by commander cody at 04:13 PM on February 07, 2006
he said... "Redwings"... hahahaha
posted by everett at 10:22 PM on February 07, 2006
i beleive the wings are as deep as any team in the league.they still throw out 4 quality lines,kill penalties better than anyone but 1 or 2 teamsand have the no.1 power play.niklas kronwalds return only improves a defense that is plenty capable of securing a cup.it is a different game and the wings have brought in some young fresh legs to keep up.