11/05/24
September 13, 2005
Kayaks Return to McCovey Cove: Barry Bonds returned to the lineup last night for the San Francisco Giants after missing 142 games. His line: 1 hit, four at bats, no dingers, and one happy nine-year-old battling leukemia.
Yawn
posted by daddisamm at 08:32 AM on September 13, 2005
God, I hate this guy. The guy's a baseball player, nothing more. Why waste such deep-felt emotion on him. Unless you're that guy who has to fetch him his coffee and whatever else, I'm sure he impacts your day-to-day life about as much as he does mine. Not one bit. Breath deep and relax.
posted by dyams at 08:42 AM on September 13, 2005
God, I hate this guy. So you are completely ignoring the whole "moment of a lifetime" for the 9 year old kid, and instead focusing on him not going out for stretching exercises. It is possible that he has his own set of stretches he does with his own personal trainer, in accordance to the doctor's orders to recover from his 4 knee surgeries. I have to give credit to the umpires for not giving into the moment and awarding Bonds a home run on that first hit. It takes a lot of conviction to stick to your ruling infront of all those Giants fans and media.
posted by grum@work at 09:24 AM on September 13, 2005
Hell, I'm focusing on the coffee - sounds like a stimulant... What makes Reggie Jackson so loved and Barry so hated?
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 10:24 AM on September 13, 2005
>>waiting for one of his many assistants, Harvey Shields, to bring him a cup of coffee. ...and I heard it was FRENCH coffee. Bastard!
posted by JohnSFO at 10:27 AM on September 13, 2005
How is this crap news?
posted by kingosiris at 10:46 AM on September 13, 2005
It was one of the best moments of the year. Actually two of the best moments of the year. First when Barry walked out on the field with Christopher Laub, the young man who inspired him and then that epic first at-bat when it looked like he'd knocked his first dong of the season. People love to hate on Barry, I don't know why. He just doesn't take any shit from the media.
posted by fenriq at 11:50 AM on September 13, 2005
"It was one of the best moments of the year. Actually two of the best moments of the year. First when Barry walked out on the field with Christopher Laub, the young man who inspired him and then that epic first at-bat when it looked like he'd knocked his first dong of the season." "People love to hate on Barry, I don't know why. He just doesn't take any shit from the media." Thank you!! Give the guy some freakin credit. I love that he gives people more reasons to hate him. Especially when that reasoning is that he's just a damn good baseball player.
posted by ocmojo at 12:04 PM on September 13, 2005
How is one of the bes moments of the year when an angry old man almost hits a homerun? Maby if he had some juice, he would have actually gotten the ball out.
posted by kingosiris at 12:08 PM on September 13, 2005
kingosiris, if you need to have it explained to you then you either can't or won't understand. I feel sorry for you that you're unable to see that his return is a pretty impressive feat in and of itself. Or maybe you're a Dodger fan?
posted by fenriq at 12:10 PM on September 13, 2005
I wonder if Barry applies his own roids, or has his "assistant" rub "the cream" on "the ass."
posted by mayerkyl at 12:24 PM on September 13, 2005
I think that he needs to be tested everyday for the rest of his carrer for "the cream" that way he can't say, "I don't know how it got there.........."
posted by jtrainhoopster at 01:40 PM on September 13, 2005
I blame Selig for not testing earlier and making me have to read all these lame steroid comments. Steroids or not Barry's the best ballplayer i've ever seen.
posted by tron7 at 01:59 PM on September 13, 2005
If Barry is the best baseball player that you have ever seen, then you need to watch more baseball. i know that he has hit lots of homeruns, but his in-ability to throw runners out or hit in the post season has prevented him from getting a WS Ring. True in 2002 he hit pretty well in the post season, but what about all the other years? Most valuable, debatable but I can understand because of his scoring ability, but best ever.........not even in my top ten. Top 20 yes!!
posted by jtrainhoopster at 02:10 PM on September 13, 2005
People love to hate on Barry, I don't know why. He just doesn't take any shit from the media. People hate on Barry because in his personal life, he often behaves contemptibly. He cheated on two wives with a mistress, has a long line of teammates and reporters he has treated terribly, and used his son as a prop for a pity-party press conference. None of this changes his excellence on the field, but let's not pretend the animosity towards Bonds is some unsolved mystery.
posted by rcade at 02:18 PM on September 13, 2005
not even in my top ten. Top 20 yes!! Name your top x position players up until Barry shows up. Bonus points for anything approaching justification.
posted by yerfatma at 02:30 PM on September 13, 2005
i know that he has hit lots of homeruns, but his in-ability to throw runners out or hit in the post season has prevented him from getting a WS Ring. True in 2002 he hit pretty well in the post season, but what about all the other years? Let me get this straight. You want to bad mouth him for his playoff ability, but only if we don't get to include the season where he was good in the playoffs. That seems fair. Or, you could simply take into account ALL of his playoff performances, and you'd have a guy hitting .245/.433/.503. The last time I looked, a .936 OPS is pretty damn good for the playoffs, especially when you consider he's only going to be facing the best teams with the best pitchers.
posted by grum@work at 02:55 PM on September 13, 2005
There is no way statistically that moron can name better players than Bonds. He's as dumb and ignorant as the reporters he confides in.
posted by Big Dookie at 02:56 PM on September 13, 2005
Oh, rcade, I also don't think that it's below intelligence to believe that some members of the media enjoy blasting him because they don't like him. He's not very likeable. Let's not pretend that the animosity towards Bonds is totally justified either. He'll be the guy like Ted Williams who was called an asshole for 20 years - then 20 years after he retires it will be nothing but praise for his legend. not even in my top ten. Top 20 yes!! More bonus points for proof of any shred of sanity. I have a sneaky suspiscion that you had cat litter for breakfast though. Do crazy people actually know they're crazy?
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:59 PM on September 13, 2005
haha weedy is funny......oh, and accurate
posted by ocmojo at 03:08 PM on September 13, 2005
There is no way statistically that moron can name better players than Bonds. He's as dumb and ignorant as the reporters he confides in. No need to insult. I can name (at least) one player better than Bonds: Babe Ruth. That's if you include his pitching performances, which should always be a factor because it was part of his career. To not do so is to deliberately exclude part of what does make him the greatest player in the history of the game.
posted by grum@work at 03:08 PM on September 13, 2005
I can name (at least) one player better than Bonds: Babe Ruth. That's if you include his pitching performances, which should always be a factor because it was part of his career. To not do so is to deliberately exclude part of what does make him the greatest player in the history of the game. well "grum" that's one only 9 more to go?
posted by dukealicious30 at 03:44 PM on September 13, 2005
ok Grum, lets look at the statement one more time. "not even in my top ten. Top 20 yes!!" So lets make sure you read about somebody opinion before you become a total ASSHOLE to poeple. Again MY, not yours.
posted by jtrainhoopster at 04:17 PM on September 13, 2005
I would like to see your list jtrainhoopster. If it is not too much trouble
posted by dukealicious30 at 04:28 PM on September 13, 2005
Well if I had to list them out, it would go something like this 1. Babe Ruth 2. Yaz 3. Ted Williams 4. Tony Gwenn 5. Kofax 6. Cy Young 7. Nolan Ryan 8. Maddox tie with Clemens 9. Jonny Bench 10. Jackie Robinson 11. Might be Bonds but I would have to think about it being that he has only had one season over 50 dingers. Again this is MY list, so don't even bother Grum.
posted by jtrainhoopster at 04:54 PM on September 13, 2005
Again this is MY list, so don't even bother Grum. You have my word: I won't even say a word about that list.
posted by grum@work at 05:18 PM on September 13, 2005
In all reality number 11 on that list should be number 12. Since you have a tie at number 8 thus putting 11 players into the top 10. If you were going to rank him at number 11 or 12 why didn't you just say "my top 11" or "my top 12" it would have looked a whole lot better for your arguement in the long run. Why would you go call someone an asshole, when they just told someone else not to call you dumb and ignorant??
posted by jojomfd1 at 05:25 PM on September 13, 2005
well "grum" that's one only 9 more to go? I'm not supposed to name the 10 players. That was someone else. Personally, I would have two (or four) different lists: primarily pitchers and non-pitchers (and I might subdivide those into pre-integration and post-integration of MLB). The reason for different lists for pitchers & non-pitchers is that it's like comparing apples and oranges. Sure, some measurements try to make the distinction (RSAA, WS or RC), but it's still tough to compare players like Tony Gwynn with Sandy Koufax or Greg Maddux.
posted by grum@work at 05:25 PM on September 13, 2005
Read the post before he said not to call people names............ Alos, Grum I would like to see your list. Sorry for the Ahole comment, that might have been a little over the top. I know that this is an open discussion and I should not take things so personally.
posted by jtrainhoopster at 05:28 PM on September 13, 2005
Yaz over Williams? How come?
posted by yerfatma at 06:20 PM on September 13, 2005
1. Babe Ruth 2. Yaz You know, I'm the biggest yaz fan in the world. I grew up watching him play. He's basically a hero to me. His name is the only one I'd ever wear on the back of a jersey. But number 2?
posted by justgary at 06:36 PM on September 13, 2005
For the way he played. balls out and nose to the wall all the time. Not alot of physical talent but made up for it with hard work and willingness to get the job done. I am sure anybody can find something to change in everybodys list. Still waiting Grum.......
posted by jtrainhoopster at 06:46 PM on September 13, 2005
jtrainhoopster, some interesting choices. What about Ty Cobb? Hank Aaron? Rickey Henderson? Willie Mays? I'm not knocking you, I'm just curious how you came to your choices. I think making a single list of the top ten baseball players of all time is nearly impossible. On Preview: By your balls out criteria I'd expect Pete Rose would be somewhere near your top ten as well. I do love those players that leave it all on the field. Guys like Eric Byrnes and David Eckstein who may not have all the talent but they sure have the heart.
posted by fenriq at 06:53 PM on September 13, 2005
I agree %100 with your words about it being impossible to make a all time list. Aaron and Cobb were both very good players and would be in the top 15 but Henderson and Mays would still be in the top 20. Pete Rose is also one of the greats and to tell the truth, he slipped my mind when thinking of people to put on the list.
posted by jtrainhoopster at 07:00 PM on September 13, 2005
Mays, DiMaggio, Clemente, Mantle. Yaz ahead of those guys? Gwynn ahead of those guys? The four I mentioned had ALL the tools, just like Bonds has demonstrated throughout his career (and I'll even dismiss most of the homers. He's still fantastic).
posted by dyams at 07:09 PM on September 13, 2005
Bonds merely has warning track power! That knock last night would of been out last year..no steroids means he ain't breaking no records!
posted by bluekarma at 10:19 PM on September 13, 2005
*sigh* What can I possibly add to this debate?
posted by qbert72 at 10:49 PM on September 13, 2005
What can I possibly add to this debate? Words of reason.
posted by justgary at 11:50 PM on September 13, 2005
Let's not forget Babe Ruth played against inferior pitching (no middle relievers or closers) and he was never walked as much as bonds. Let's be honest here, the guy played against all white people. If he would have had to face Latin,Black, and Asian players his stats would have faltered drastically. I don't respect any players that did not play against everyone. Not to say it's his fault, but those different cultures bring a different type of game and this makes it that much harder. Babe Ruth was just another fatass who could only hit home runs he could not steal bases nor could her score from second. Hell take your lazy asses to any public park and you'll see what I mean. There will be a big lard ass at bat and he'll hit the ball a country mile or stike out. Doest that at bat ring a bell?
posted by Big Dookie at 01:21 AM on September 14, 2005
If he would have had to face Latin,Black, and Asian players his stats would have faltered drastically. No. Might have faltered. Not would have.
posted by yerfatma at 07:31 AM on September 14, 2005
Babe Ruth was just another fatass ... I think that statement disqualifies you from ever being taken seriously as an observer of the great game. Ruth was a monster. He might have faltered under increased competition from non-caucasian players, but he also would have feasted on the bad pitchers in an expanded league. It's also silly to presume that he'd be overweight if he played today, as if he wouldn't take advantage of the training regimen of a modern player. He also was one of the league leaders in triples and stolen bases for a few years, so maybe chubby could motor better than you think.
posted by rcade at 08:09 AM on September 14, 2005
Well that line of thinking always bugged me a little - if we presuppose that the Negro Leagues were the equal of the major leagues in terms of talent, than since the Babe walloped the MLB boys - I think he would wallop the other guys too. For what it's worth - I put Bonds in the top 5 of position players. Only the Babe, Mays (by virtue of defence), Ted Williams, and Ty Cobb I feel could be made a case for being better. And in the case of Mays and Cobb - a case could be made for Bonds.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:15 AM on September 14, 2005
Bonds merely has warning track power! That knock last night would of been out last year..no steroids means he ain't breaking no records! Spoken by someone who obviously never played a game of baseball (on a highly competitive level) in their life. I can only hope this was a flip remark not meant to be taken seriously. The fact the guy was making contact as well as he did after not having been in a real game in a year is incredible. People who sit on computers, watch TVs, and have never competed think someone can use steroids then walk up to the plate and begin cranking homers into McCovey Cove. He's hitting the ball on the screws, for the most part, after not having faced live pitching all season. If Bonds would have had a spring training and been healthy all year, he'd have at least 40-50 homers.
posted by dyams at 09:17 AM on September 14, 2005
He also was one of the league leaders in triples and stolen bases for a few years, so maybe chubby could motor better than you think. And he was the best left-handed pitcher of his generation.
posted by yerfatma at 09:45 AM on September 14, 2005
He also was one of the league leaders in triples and stolen bases for a few years, so maybe chubby could motor better than you think. For the sake of completeness: Ruth was in the top ten in triples for 4 years (1918, 1919, 1921, 1923) and top ten in stolen bases for 2 years (1921, 1923). If you use the Bill James-created stat Power/Speed ((2*HR*SB)/(HR + SB)) that measures a player's combination of power and speed, he finished in the top ten in that category 9 times (leading it in 1921, 1923, 1926). Just for comparison, Bonds was in the top ten for triples 3 times, stolen bases 9 times and Power/Speed 14 times (leading it 6 times). But because of what yerfatma says, I'd still rank Ruth ahead of Bonds at this moment. Ruth stats Bonds stats
posted by grum@work at 10:32 AM on September 14, 2005
i am surprised no one has even mentioned Pete Rose, and to not have Bonds in the top 10 but have Maddox? come on lets be real.
posted by dukealicious30 at 10:43 AM on September 14, 2005
Pete Rose was mentioned in two consecutive comments above, but I don't think he belongs in a discussion of The GOAT.
posted by yerfatma at 10:53 AM on September 14, 2005
I just logged on and i am on the west coast so sorry i did not see Rose name. but how could you not mention the greatest hitter of all time?
posted by dukealicious30 at 11:07 AM on September 14, 2005
"He's hitting the ball on the screws, for the most part, after not having faced live pitching all season. If Bonds would have had a spring training and been healthy all year, he'd have at least 40-50 homers." Lets not forget he only more then 50 homers once!!
posted by jtrainhoopster at 11:13 AM on September 14, 2005
One reason Bonds doesn't have a lot of over-50 home run seasons is the incredible number of times he's walked. It's really a staggering number. Cut the number of walks issued to him in half, translating possibly into more good pitches to swing at, and I'm sure his HR numbers would be even more inflated.
posted by dyams at 11:22 AM on September 14, 2005
Lets not forget he only more then 50 homers once!! You keep saying this, but I'm not sure what your point is. Before this season, he hit a HR every 12.9 AB throughout his career. If he had as many AB (PA - BB, roughly) as Ichiro has in the past 4 seasons (2001-2004), he'd have HR totals of 54, 50, 53, and 55. He hasn't broken the 50 HR total as often as you'd expect (given his power) simply because he hasn't had the plate appearances (not a leadoff hitter) or the opportunity when at bat (walked too many times).
posted by grum@work at 11:23 AM on September 14, 2005
"He's hitting the ball on the screws, for the most part, after not having faced live pitching all season. If Bonds would have had a spring training and been healthy all year, he'd have at least 40-50 homers." I would agree with that. Lets not forget people before all of the steroid accusations and enhancement creams Bonds was a monster homerun hitter.
posted by dukealicious30 at 11:23 AM on September 14, 2005
Bonds has 13 straight seasons of 30 or more homers. Jimmy Fox is next with 12, Sosa has 10. His career slugging percentage is just behind Ruths for all-time. Let's not talk about Bonds' lack of power, because it's completely untrue. If he had been pitched to with any regularity since his 73 homer season - he'd have another couple 60-70 homer seasons. I feel very comfortable saying that.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 11:59 AM on September 14, 2005
Just as a comparison, Hank Aaron NEVER hit 50 home runs in a season. I think you'd be pretty hard pressed to say that he didn't have power.
posted by grum@work at 12:37 PM on September 14, 2005
He only brought the kid on to the field so people would think of the kid not the fact that he is a sorry cheater. I go to Giants games all the time and when he first got to SF he was great and did not need the cheat. All of his prior accomplishments are null and void now.
posted by ELWAY_FAN at 01:30 PM on September 14, 2005
He was not a monster homerun hitter though 40/40 but not a MONSTER.
posted by ELWAY_FAN at 01:31 PM on September 14, 2005
sorry i did not see Rose name. but how could you not mention the greatest hitter of all time? We did. But no one thought to mention Pete Rose.
posted by yerfatma at 02:27 PM on September 14, 2005
Pete Rose is nowhere near these guys in terms of 'best'. In terms of work ethic, making the most of one's talent, and best case of ego overpowering limited intelligence, he's near the top of every list.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 03:19 PM on September 14, 2005
He was not a monster homerun hitter though 40/40 but not a MONSTER. Okay Elway Fan then who or what do you consider a monster homerun hitter? Oh wait let me gues Mark McGwire. FIGURES!
posted by dukealicious30 at 03:31 PM on September 14, 2005
Pete Rose is nowhere near these guys in terms of 'best'. In terms of work ethic, making the most of one's talent, and best case of ego overpowering limited intelligence, he's near the top of every list. You obviously got a bad batch of the ganja. How can the MLB League leading all time hit leader not be mentioned in the top 10 of GOAT'S? Wasn't Tony Gywnn mentioned? So someone please explain that one to me?
posted by dukealicious30 at 03:37 PM on September 14, 2005
Hey, whoa, Tony Gwynn was on Jtrain's list. He wouldn't sniff the top ten in mine. Rose is an ungodly singles hitter with some serious longevity. His records are all related to the amount of years he played with little or no injuries. I would want him on my team, but he isn't in the same discussion with the all-time mashers. Only Ty Cobb gets that distinction; Maybe Rickey Henderson. Both are/were better than Pete Rose. Just look at the numbers (plural) not the one number.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 03:53 PM on September 14, 2005
Oh okay I see what you mean now. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
posted by dukealicious30 at 03:58 PM on September 14, 2005
Hey Weedy, can you give us alook at your top ten of all time and your top ten mashers.......
posted by jtrainhoopster at 04:01 PM on September 14, 2005
Here's a good start on a list.
posted by yerfatma at 04:12 PM on September 14, 2005
Ruth batted .340 for his career and hit .393 in a single season. The BABE was a monster homerun hitter he also played in 250 less games!!
posted by ELWAY_FAN at 08:04 PM on September 14, 2005
This is a pretty good place to start as well. (Although it was posted mid-2004, so it's a little bit out of date with regards to Bonds total win shares.)
posted by grum@work at 11:26 PM on September 14, 2005
Top ten in so-so particular order: Ruth Cobb Gehrig Mays Bonds Aaron Wagner Williams Musial Hornsby Jackson, Henderson, Mantle, Clemente, Speaker, etc. start coming in and then when the list is expanded you'll see a guy like Pete Rose in at number 30-35.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 08:31 AM on September 15, 2005
"Where have you gone, Joe DiMaggio?"
posted by dyams at 09:39 AM on September 15, 2005
He's in the top 20, I figure. Not the top ten.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 10:58 AM on September 15, 2005
Which Jackson are we talking about....I assume it's Reggie (not Shoeless Joe or (definitely not) Bo). I loved Reggie but am not ready to put him quite in the top 20 or 30. He's always going to hold a special place in baseball history because of his flare for the dramatic and all the excitment that followed him. But I'm just not sure about him being so close to the top 10. I like the rest of the list, though.
posted by dyams at 01:07 PM on September 15, 2005
It's Shoeless Joe, baby - look at those numbas!!
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 03:55 PM on September 15, 2005
Most of the Giants' players were on the field at 4:20 p.m. Monday for the start of stretching drills. Not Barry Bonds. He was in the clubhouse at one of his four lockers, waiting for one of his many assistants, Harvey Shields, to bring him a cup of coffee. God, I hate this guy.