11/21/24
August 02, 2005
Toss Out All The Hall Of Shamers: Just a thought here , can you really punish someone ala McGwire for using steroids when there was no rules against using them at the time they played ? Didn't the rule just get established this season banning steroids ? Now if they knowingly used them while the rules were in force then by all means punish them . What if down the line they make new rules banning something else , do you remove some players previously elected ? Just a thought .
posted by evil empire to baseball at 07:59 AM - 44 comments
There is one big issue that everyone seems to forget about Mark McGwire. Big Mac NEVER tested positive, some nosey f*** found a bottle of Andro in his locker, then MLB decided that andro was a no no. The only time any of the talk about any of this hurting his chances of him getting into the hall was after congress decided to stick their asses into sports, and big mac said he was not there to talk about the past. Since then it has been McGwire has really hurt his chance to get into the HOF, and most of those articles are written by the same jackass reporters that wrote how McGwire and Sosa saved baseball. It is all a load of shit!!
posted by jojomfd1 at 08:36 AM on August 02, 2005
you bring up a good question. I still think Pete Rose should be a hall member. his on-field play makes him one of the all time greats. if we retro rules, how many hall members would we lose. the babe was a drinking, gambling womanizer. Would he be removed? the hall of fame in any sport should represent the best of the best on the field of play. their off field issues should not matter.
posted by TKTT1 at 08:40 AM on August 02, 2005
TKTT1 Pete Rose should be in the hof , he did no wrong as a player so he should be elected as a player . Ban him from entering as a manager since thats when he as betting on games .
posted by evil empire at 08:48 AM on August 02, 2005
what the f*ck? are you all flippin kidding me? Just becuz they weren't caught that makes it all right? oh yeah, Mark never tested positive but why do yo think he decided to retire after that? Answer: becuz he didn't want to get his ass caught that's why. all those who are already in the HOF shold stay only becuz there is no real way of knowing whether they took steroids or not...but I think that congress getting involved was a good idea cuz no one else in baseball was doin shit about it...everyone in baseball turned a blind eye to it bt now that there are actual laws they can't and eventually we'll have ACTUAL players with REAL talent.
posted by brklyngurl1201 at 08:49 AM on August 02, 2005
My litmus test for the Hall of Fame is this: Ty Cobb was a drunk, a racist and a murder who went out of his way to openly try and injure other players on the field as a natural part of his playing style. Despite the fact that he was arguably the greatest ballplayer of all time, had next to no one at his funeral, because he was so much of an off-the-charts jackass that he never made friends with anyone over the course of his entire life. Now, in comparison, what did Mark McGwire (or Bonds, or Palmeiro, or even Rose) do again? You might not want them babysitting your kids, but compared to Ty Cobb, they're Albert Schweitzer. People who say McGwire broke the laws of baseball are applying rules passed after he retired. Everything he took was legal when he took it. I'm not a fan of the guy, but get off his back. His accomplishments are legit and speak for themselves.
posted by chicobangs at 09:02 AM on August 02, 2005
Yep, in the big schem of things, McGwire's most excellent move was his timing. He got out before the shit hit the fan and although he seems to clearly be the poster child for the steroid era he will be the last to be untarnished by it.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:06 AM on August 02, 2005
The thing about steroids isn't that they were against MLB rules, but that they were and are against the law. It doesn't matter that baseball is just now catching up with every single other sport in existence in banning them.
posted by trox at 09:06 AM on August 02, 2005
But we are talking about performance ENHANCING drugs. If players on steroids put up HOF numbers on the juice then they are bogus numbers.
posted by scottypup at 09:25 AM on August 02, 2005
If it's against the law, put him in jail. If it's against the rules of baseball, keep him out of the Hall. But those are two different jurisdictions. Each should apply, but don't mix the two up. It causes -- well, it causes discussions like this.
posted by chicobangs at 09:31 AM on August 02, 2005
Just so everyone understands, the HOF is filled with cheaters and performance-enhancing drug users, so tossing them all out is going to leave a pretty empty hall... Gaylord Perry was a known cheater. He'd admitted to doctoring the baseball throughout his career. Willie Mays, Willie Stargell and Hank Aaron had used amphetimine-type drugs during their playing days. Babe Ruth used an illegal bat (four pieces of wood glued together) until it was banned in 1923 by the commissioner (Ban Johnson). Nevermind the number of players in the 1970s and 1980s who were doped up on cocaine, or players in the 1960s who dabbled with dope...
posted by grum@work at 09:36 AM on August 02, 2005
to trox.......cocaine and marijuana are against the law yet there are some players in the hof who used them . you wont remove them from the hof cause its against the law . there is a big difference between laws and governing rules . if the cops wanna arrest them for breaking a law so be it , then let mlb in all its infinite wisdom govern what to do about them . but don't confuse the two .
posted by evil empire at 09:41 AM on August 02, 2005
2 things i just thought of .... 1. i remember once during a yankees game , bobby murcer (who loves to talk) said that in his days of playing many players used to doctor their bats .... including mantle , hollowing out the bat and filling it with cork . it made the bat both lighter and gave the ball a jump .ever wonder how that ball jumped out of a then huge yankee stadium ? hmmm sounds illegal . 2. when a player gets elected in the hof they seem to become a bit snooty and now above all others , these are the same people on the hof veterans committee . now saying that when reggie jackson was a player he was a big guy , but after he retired he became very muscular . at his age it would have to been supplement enhanced to get that huge / ripped . now wouldnt that be hypocritical for him to keep others out of the hof if he has used supplements in his lifetime , granted not during playing days but yet until this season it was not a rule .
posted by evil empire at 09:58 AM on August 02, 2005
Three unconnected thoughts: (1) It seems (listening to baseball fans) that some kinds of cheating are mortal sins (steroids, game-fixing) while other kinds of cheating are just "part of the game" (stimulants, sign-stealing, ball-doctoring, bat-corking, etc.). What distinguishes the two categories? (2) It is quite possible that Palmeiro "unintentionally" ingested steroids or a steroid precursor; that is, that he intentionally took something that was supposedly legal, but contained illegal substances. (See previous discussion and references here.) However, I would think that he and his handlers would be better educated about this issue and would have laid off the supplements. (3) A historical note: anabolic steroids were used in bodybuilding and powerlifting as early as the 1950's, and were on the open market by the 1960's. There is no guarantee that your childhood idols were not juiced, too.
posted by Amateur at 10:06 AM on August 02, 2005
Didn't the rule just get established this season banning steroids? Not exactly. The 2004 policy included suspensions for a second positive test. There were no second positive tests. In 2003 baseball conducted anonymous "survey testing" with no penalties for a positive, and found 5-7% of tests were positive. USA Today has a very brief history of the policy here.
posted by Amateur at 10:17 AM on August 02, 2005
It seems (listening to baseball fans) that some kinds of cheating are mortal sins (steroids, game-fixing) while other kinds of cheating are just "part of the game" (stimulants, sign-stealing, ball-doctoring, bat-corking, etc.). What distinguishes the two categories? I think it all depends on whether a player on their favourite team (or a player they idolized) committed the "sin". If it was a player they liked, then it's "just a minor thing". If it was someone else (or a player they've been told to hate), then it's the greatest sin in the history of sports.
posted by grum@work at 10:35 AM on August 02, 2005
ever wonder how that ball jumped out of a then huge yankee stadium ? hmmm sounds illegal . As long as we remember it doesn't actually help.
posted by yerfatma at 10:59 AM on August 02, 2005
Well As sad as it is for me to write this...He nor anyone else should be tossed from HOF consideration or the ones there already should remain where they are. Seeing as there was not ever a ruling on steroids during that time, you can't take them from their place in history. Unfortunately, this is how it has to be! Hopefully, they will be able to sleep at night knowing that the records they may have broken, world series won or in "BIG" {now We know why} Macs case, a home run record taken away from a man who sacrificed everything for one season taking history away from Babe Ruth by making himself home run king while dealing with media, death threats as well as his family sacrifices as well. We can also mention "Sweet" Lou Brock when becoming the all-time home-run champ in his day for also dealing with death threats for two reasons. The first taking that record from baseballs forever hero Babe Ruth, and second for just plain being a black. What has Mac, Sosa, Palmeiro, Bonds or any of the others sacrificed in this era of high paydays and endorsements??? Not a damn thing!!! If these guys do make the HOF, true greatness is no longer the reason, but instead processed through the needle or I don't know how it got there means. I also think that if that all happens, the it is way over due for a man who does belong in the HOF to finally find his way home. That man being Pete Rose! His crime was betting on baseball during his later years as a player/manager. This was years following all the truly great things he accomplished, but yet still is punished for it. Michael Jordan bet on the sport as did Charles Barkley both while players. They surely had the power to change the outcomes of the games having been central parts of their teams. Fact is, the HOF isn't what it was or should be anymore. It's slowly as time goes on going to be full of cheaters and liars. Put them in and see who visits their little corner. If cheating is what makes a man great in this time, I am proud to be a plain ordinary guy.
posted by melcarek69 at 11:06 AM on August 02, 2005
We can also mention "Sweet" Lou Brock when becoming the all-time home-run champ in his day for also dealing with death threats for two reasons. The first taking that record from baseballs forever hero Babe Ruth, and second for just plain being a black. Well, Lou Brock was black, but I think you have him mixed up with Hank Aaron, who was part of the "greenies" generation of hitters. And you are kidding yourself if you think Bonds didn't get negative reactions when he was on pace to break Mark McGwire's HR record... What has Mac, Sosa, Palmeiro, Bonds or any of the others sacrificed in this era of high paydays and endorsements??? Not a damn thing!!! I'm pretty sure their private lives are much more open to scrutiny than those players in the past. It was well known (after the fact) that Mantle was a notorious drunk, but the press kept it out of the public eye. Nowadays, any little thing becomes front-page news for any big name athlete. I also think that if that all happens, the it is way over due for a man who does belong in the HOF to finally find his way home. That man being Pete Rose! His crime was betting on baseball during his later years as a player/manager. This was years following all the truly great things he accomplished, but yet still is punished for it. He's still punished for it because it's the single most important rule in the baseball conduct handbook: don't bet on baseball games. It's been in the rules for decades (unlike PEDs), and posted in every single lockerroom. It is more of a stain on baseball if one player is betting on the sport than if 10 players are using PEDs. Jordan and Barkley may have bet on sports, but no one has ever accused them of betting on the sport they played in.
posted by grum@work at 11:22 AM on August 02, 2005
As long as we remember it doesn't actually help. Do you really believe that study ? Whether corking bats help make the ball jump or increases the bat speed enough to make a difference in distance , one way or another it works . murcer was telling how they used the bats in practice and would have contests to see who could hit the farthest and those bats would consistantly make the ball explode off the bat . science also says a breaking ball is just an illusion and the ball doesnt really change direction .... thousands who faced a wicked curve would take exception .
posted by evil empire at 11:55 AM on August 02, 2005
I will give you fair arguement on all you said grum except for the Pete Rose thing. Pete Rose bet on the sport after his playing days were all but over. I, nor most others believe that he is the only one just the same as this steroid crap going on. As time goes on, books will come out just the same as Cansecos stating just that. Cheaters are cheaters plain and simple. As kids We did it. Our job as adults is to show kids why it's wrong. We the adults lead by example. Some say they don't care what kids are learning today good or bad. These same people need to remember that one day they will be the adults and in charge of what is happening in the world. If kids aren't taught now what is right and wrong, such as steroid usage or any drug usage, then We are not doing our jobs as adults. Also being from Chicago, it was proven and then covered up about Jordan and exactly what he was betting on along with his father. I will state again, If these guys can all cheat in whatever way it happens to be, and I don't care when in history it was...then Rose should be able to find his place in history as well. Betting or Juicing, it's all the same to me-CHEATING! One means nothing on the importance scale over the other. Difference is, the Juicers spend a career doing that while Rose did his sinning during a career twilight when he had already accomplished his historic value. But opinions are what are supposed to make this country better than all the others. With that said Grum, I appreciate your arguement.
posted by melcarek69 at 12:00 PM on August 02, 2005
And Rose has been accused of betting on games while playing. As someone who grew up in that area, Rose was a local boy with alot of Mafia connections in steel towns like Youngstown, etc... So, Rose probably brought more shady charachters into the dugout than most people realize as well. Pete Rose wasn't just a gambler, he became a problem for the game in general. That's the reason they were so adamant about this at the time of his ban. Charachter figures 25% into a vote for the hall, let the voting members decide those fates. I don't think Steroids are any more of an issue than the improvement in diet, training regiments, etc... Plus, what if McGuire was juiced facing a pitcher who was juiced?? Doesn't that kind of karmically even it out?? Heck, Babe Ruth never had to face a pitcher twonked up on Andro, and McGuire never had the pleasure of hitting balls thrown by a guy who was totally drunk. It's still pitcher vs. batter, and they can both cheat. (Hey, how about letting more batters in from the Gaylord Perry era?? Is it fair that they had to face a guy who doctored every ball he threw??)
posted by LostInDaJungle at 12:03 PM on August 02, 2005
Tell that to Oakland Raider fans who watched 70's and 80's great John Matuszak go from a 350lb. man to 124lbs. when he finally died from years of steroid abuse. As far as the Gaylord Perry add, I agree with you 100%.
posted by melcarek69 at 12:17 PM on August 02, 2005
Now if they knowingly used them while the rules were in force then by all means punish them . So is that sending the message that as long as there's a loophole it's ok to cheat? I've already talked about this before but for a player like palmeiro who was around during the steroid era, you should, for lack of a better word, "grandfather" him in voting wise. Just look at how many people were probably using steroids while he played. Opposing pitchers, teammates, and so forth.
posted by rockin_the_suburbs at 12:41 PM on August 02, 2005
"science also says a breaking ball is just an illusion and the ball doesnt really change direction...thousands who faced a wicked curve would take exception" Maybe they would. But then, they'd be wrong. Wouldn't be the first time.
posted by ravenous at 12:54 PM on August 02, 2005
who is cecil adams ?
posted by evil empire at 01:12 PM on August 02, 2005
Do you really believe that study ? I did, but then you mentioned what Bobby Murcer thinks and now maybe I'm all mixed up on this thing. I mean, if an ex-jock doesn't agree with physics professors, maybe this whole damn world is so topsy-turvy we don't know anything no more. I didn't do well in Physics. Got a 1 on the AP test. I do remember that Force = Mass * Acceleration. So if you reduce the mass, you better get a larger increase in acceleration than you took away. Seems like it'd be hard to find a balance that made a difference. And what's the point, now that you can get bats with such thin handles?
posted by yerfatma at 01:38 PM on August 02, 2005
The fact that Jason Giambi was on the juice for years and finally got cleaned up went thru a transition period of getting his timing and confidence back, not to mention his pride. Look at what hes doing now,ought to give these juice heads a clue that if your indeed talented enough your skill will prevail.. I mean if he can do it why are these idiots still taking the chance.. In Palmerio's case maybe he should be charged with flat ass lying to congress..
posted by maclmn at 01:47 PM on August 02, 2005
too bad they didnt all take steroid tests before lying , ooops testifying before congress . this bs that palmeiro cant be charged with perjury because they cant prove he was juiced at the time would be moot point .
posted by evil empire at 01:51 PM on August 02, 2005
It seems (listening to baseball fans) that some kinds of cheating are mortal sins (steroids, game-fixing) while other kinds of cheating are just "part of the game" (stimulants, sign-stealing, ball-doctoring, bat-corking, etc.). What distinguishes the two categories? Sandberg said it best "RESPECT"
posted by hump9n at 04:24 PM on August 02, 2005
Who is Cecil Adams? If you haven't picked up any of the Straight Dope books, do so immediately. They are full of answers to the questions that you'd either be too afraid or ashamed to ask, such as: *Are subliminal messages secretly embedded in advertisements? (A Straight Dope Classic by Cecil Adams) *When toast falls, what's more likely: Buttered side up or buttered side down? (By Cecil Adams) *Why do they call cotton swabs Q-tips? and my all-time fave: How many calories are in the average male ejaculation? That's just good stuff. Err, the columns, not the ejaculate. Ugh.
posted by wfrazerjr at 04:56 PM on August 02, 2005
Okay. I'm seeing a lot of "facts" that have never been mentioned anywhere else, let alone proven or admitted to. Matuszak died of brain cancer, which has nothing to do with steroid use. No active major leaguer has ever admitted to using steroids, nor has any active player been proven of same. So to say that it's a "known" "fact" that Bonds/Palmeiro/Giambi/Sosa/etc have been juicing is a flat out lie. I'm not saying they have or they haven't. I'm saying that those are hardly "facts." Just be careful in this echo chamber.
posted by chicobangs at 05:02 PM on August 02, 2005
whoa chicobangs ..... matuzak died of heart failure , lyle alzedo died of brain cancer . heres a bit of his bio ...Matuszak participated in the 1978 World's Strongest Man competition, where he placed 9th. As an athlete, he gained additional notoriety for his partying and drug abuse.John Matuszak died of heart failure in Hollywood, California at age 38. His early death has been blamed on his extreme lifestyle, including the possible use of anabolic steroids.
posted by evil empire at 06:11 PM on August 02, 2005
The thing about steroids isn't that they were against MLB rules, but that they were and are against the law. It doesn't matter that baseball is just now catching up with every single other sport in existence in banning them. McGwire did not use "steriods" He took Andro a "precursor". Andro was not illegal at all you could buy it at any GNC store. This is another problem that MLB has created with the tight lipped policy of not publicizing what players tested positive for. We should be able to know what it was, and how the player took it!
posted by jojomfd1 at 01:56 PM on August 03, 2005
Actually, it was Alzado who died from brain cancer, which he attributed to his years of steroid abuse and experimentation with human growth hormone.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 02:15 PM on August 03, 2005
Tell that to Oakland Raider fans who watched 70's and 80's great John Matuszak go from a 350lb. man to 124lbs. when he finally died from years of steroid abuse. As far as the Gaylord Perry add, I agree with you 100%. Alzado died from cancer after years of steroid abuse not Matusak
posted by jojomfd1 at 02:18 PM on August 03, 2005
So did Alzado die of cancer? Was it caused by steroids?
posted by yerfatma at 03:02 PM on August 03, 2005
Hector Elizando died of cancer?
posted by wfrazerjr at 03:04 PM on August 03, 2005
In his account to Sports Illustrated, Alzado said he began taking anabolic steroids in college in 1969 and never stopped. "It wasn't worth it," Alzado wrote. "If you're on steroids or human growth hormone, stop. I should have."
posted by evil empire at 03:22 PM on August 03, 2005
no fraze, Elizando died from abuse of Matusak.
posted by goddam at 03:23 PM on August 03, 2005
Hector Elizondo is still alive .
posted by evil empire at 03:38 PM on August 03, 2005
No he's not, EE ... the entire cast of "Necessary Roughness" was rounded up and ritually disemboweled. Thankfully. Matusak ... sounds like a good euphemism for "scrotum", doesn't it?
posted by wfrazerjr at 04:54 PM on August 03, 2005
matuszak , isn't that the annoying music played in malls ?
posted by evil empire at 05:05 PM on August 03, 2005
I wish fraze: I've seen Kathy Ireland subsequently, and we're currently embroiled in a class-action suit to recover the years of puberty I wasted on her.
posted by yerfatma at 05:40 PM on August 03, 2005
can you really punish someone ala McGwire for using steroids when there was no rules against using them at the time they played ? Why not??? I don't understand all this Hall of Fame yap. What does the drug rule have to do with the Hall of Fame? It concerns with what active players are and are not allowed to ingest, and sanctions them if they break the rule. Election to the Hall of Fame doesn't have anything to do with any of that. Seems to me that election to the Hall of Fame should be based on being an exemplary player, and there are plenty of ways that you can stick to the strict letter of the rules (or at least, don't get caught) and be far from exemplary.