04/25/24
January 14, 2004
The arguments about women in PGA Tour events rage on.: I just don't get what they're all so worried about. Some people would pay a lot of money to be beaten by a 14 year-old girl.
Some people would pay a lot of money to be beaten by a 14 year-old girl. Hahahaha. That line alone makes this post worthwhile. Awesome.
posted by worldcup2002 at 12:26 PM on January 14, 2004
And a 14-year-old Asian girl, to boot...that's top-dollar...
posted by MeatSaber at 12:59 PM on January 14, 2004
Well, Michelle Wie is 14 this year.
posted by worldcup2002 at 01:11 PM on January 14, 2004
Re: this issue, I still side with what Tiger had to say...re: his own history when he was a youngster, "I didn't really move up from junior golf to maybe - let's say local junior golf, I didn't go nationally until I was playing well enough to win consistently at the junior level in my own Orange County. " So far her best showing in a major on the women's tour is a ninth place tie. If it is so important for a woman to make the cut in a men's event, shouldn't Annika or someone else that has proven themself get the shot? (Although of course the sponsor has the prerogative of exempting anyone they want, right now there are better women players...)
posted by vito90 at 03:30 PM on January 14, 2004
I don't know if she'll ever play our tour because I don't think the girls, once they get past 14 or 15, develop that much more granted, i'm not well verse in the world of golf, but this statement just sounds like total bullshit to me. how can a girl not develop much more after 14 or 15? i would think such things as added strength as she got older would help develop her game. also i think one's mental game has the potential to improve over time. is it me or does he make it sound like women golfers peak at 15? they're not fucking gymnasts fer chrissakes.
posted by goddam at 03:55 PM on January 14, 2004
She's getting to play an event at essentially her home course, why would the sponsor not give a place to a local hero? And I'm with goddam, for that matter.
posted by billsaysthis at 04:06 PM on January 14, 2004
JJ - I have always respected your opinions and postings on golf, as you seem to have as much experience playing as anybody. What has been your experience playing against women? I would especially be interested in making the comparisons as apples-to-apples as is possible. Like, have you ever played with or against a woman who was your relative (along gender lines) equal? Maybe close to or the same handicap? Then played from the same tees? (This last question is relevant because any woman who plays in a PGA sanctioned event would have to play from the back tees, right?) Have you played a woman who maybe had a superior short game to you but your distance overcame that disadvantage? I would just like to hear about some of your anecdotal experiences if you have any...
posted by vito90 at 04:22 PM on January 14, 2004
this statement just sounds like total bullshit to me. Holla!
posted by garfield at 05:47 PM on January 14, 2004
Re: once they get past 14 or 15, (they don't) develop that much more: ``She probably has one of the best golf swings I've ever seen, period,'' Davis Love III said. ``She's got a lot going for her. Plus, she's tall and strong. No telling what she's going to do when she gets a little older.''
posted by forksclovetofu at 08:10 PM on January 14, 2004
My fear is that if she fails, she's still a 14 year old girl with 14 year old girl emotions. I hope they don't ruin a talent before her time. I liken it to promoting a minor leaguer too fast.
posted by usfbull at 08:23 PM on January 15, 2004
She did shoot a 72 in the first round, which seems pretty decent to (non-golfer) me.
posted by billsaysthis at 09:13 PM on January 15, 2004
vito90 - I've had the odd run-in with women golfers in my time. Tony Jacklin was once asked if he'd ever seen a perfect golf swing. He said he'd only seen one, and it belonged to a 15 year old gril from Turnberry. Many years later, that girl was lucky enough to draw me as her caddy in the 1996 Curtis Cup at Killarney. She's now a successful LPGA Tour player, and was on the victorious European Solheim Cup team this year. When I caddied for her in the Curtis Cup, she opened my eyes to exactly what can be achieved on a golf course without the use of brute force. I don't necessarily agree with the suggestion that women have a better all round short game than men - I think that's a modern myth. I would say that many of the top class ladies I saw that week were exceptional putters, but around the greens, power can be just as important as it is off the tee. Getting the ball airborn quickly in order that it pulls up fast when it hits the putting surface cannot be done gently - it requires snappy fast hands that many of the ladies I watched didn't have. But Mhari McKay's course management that week was exceptional. Up until then I had always relied heavily on my ability to hit it a long way off the tee and my ability to get up and down from the ball washers. I played an awful lot of crisis golf as a junior - big risks follwed either by glory or tricky extracations that required further risks. I must have been perceived by the junior Ireland selectors as a complete liability - I could shoot scores in the 60's, certainly, but I could also shoot a 90 without a problem. That's probably why I never made the team - that and the drinking and the smoking and the general misbehaviour. I was also lucky enough to attend a good golfing university (Stirling, in Scotland) where we had several top class lady players (as well as a few handy men). My first ever game for the uni was one sunny Sunday morning at Gleneagles. Two members of the ten man team hadn't made it home from the night before and we had to draft in a couple of girls from the ladies team to make up the numbers. I drew the supposedly short straw and got one of them as my playing partner for the day. Neither of us had seen the course before. On the first tee, one of our oponents that day (a middle-aged wannabe comedian from Edinburgh) asked Maria if she'd rather play off the ladies tees. She didn't even look at him - just sniffed and said no, it was fine, she'd play from the same tees as the rest of us. He laughed. His laughter subsided when she hit it twenty yards past him on the first. I played quite well that day - I'd never seen the course before (other than on TV), there was a bit of a breeze and I was happy to have broken 80 - in the end though, my score counted on just one hole as Maria shot 68 and destroyed our opposition single-handedly. Again, her putting was exceptional and her course management was impeccable. I was still thrashing it as hard as I could then (I still am if I'm honest). The whole day was summed up by the 14th hole - or Denty Den as the locals call it. It's a short par 4 - only just over 300 yards from the back tees - and of course I only needed to look at the yardage to be reaching for my driver and thinking of the tales I would tell in the clubhouse later. Maria calmly and delicately wafted a 2-iron into the fattest part of the fairway. I strangled my driver and demolished one straight at the green. She played a firm wedge shot in that checked up nicely and left her a tempting, uphill birdie putt of around 10 feet. I was already on the green, sizing up my eagle putt from the back of the green. It was only about 20 feet long, but it was all downhill, and it broke at least ten feet from the left. I missed. And then I missed the subsequent birdie putt from 15 feet below the hole. Maria comfortably stroked home her putt from 10 feet. I'd had several blasts of adrenalin (deciding to hit driver - driving the green - fearing the putt - missing the putt) and come away with par. She could have played the hole from a sitting position and had come away with birdie. Sickening at the time - elucidating in retrospect. But, to conclude the longest post in Sportsfilter history, distance isn't as big an advantage as it once was - technology has almost removed it as a factor as nearly everyone can hit it 300 yards these days if they've got enough money to spend on a driver. I find it intersting to watch women's golf, and I'm happy to see them in the men's tournaments on the whole. I suppose, it's becoming a bit like tennis - the women play more interesting golf because they can't just overpower every course they play. My only real fear is that the inclusion of women in men's events will spark some sort of demand by the men to be allowed to wear shorts - and that would mostly just be wrong *shudder* Next thing you know, they'd be wanting the right to wear skirts and socks with pom-poms. Why must all of my posts always end up being about Eddie Izzard?
posted by JJ at 05:44 AM on January 16, 2004
JJ! Thanks Man. You should write golf columns. That was a fun and informative read! If the top three or four or whatever # of women are able to make it through Q-School and play regularly on the Men's tour, what will that do for the Women's tour? And the Nike Tour? Won't they become more marginalized then they already are? Wouldn't we consider that to be a Bad Thing?
posted by vito90 at 08:14 AM on January 16, 2004
All the tours in the world except the PGA Tour are marginalised. The way I see it is that golf, like most other sports today, is dominated by superstars. People would rather tune in and watch Tiger shoot 85 than tune in and see some guy (or girl) they've never heard of shoot 65. Hardened golf fans are different - we'll watch any old rubbish and lap it up like it's the finest cream - but your average sportsfan, just channel hopping in the hope of finding something engrossing, is unlikely to pause for long to see if Joe Soap can hole a three foot putt to defend his 17th place on the Nike Tour standings. There is a very definite hierarchy of men's tours - it's like trying to gain promotion all the time. As such, it's OK (in my view) for the Nike Tour to be marginalised. No one playing on it wants to be on it - they all want to win promotion to the PGA Tour. The LPGA Tour is marginalised too, but there's no way for an individual to gain promotion to the one tour that ISN'T marginalised as things stand at the moment. It's maybe a boring stance to take, but I say let gender not be an issue - let any lady that can qualify for the PGA Tour go right ahead. It's strange to me that the people complaining about it aren't the people who would lose out if it became more prevelent. I'm surprised there hasn't been more noise made by the "regular" LPGA Tour players to the effect of "But, if all our best players go and play with the boys, no one will come to our tournaments or watch them on TV and we'll end up with droping prize funds." In the end, I don't think it's going to be an issue for much longer. I suspect that two things will happen. Firstly, I think that the PGA Tour will become more like the European Tour and start having tournaments in lots of other countries - thus enforcing the current hierarchy, but making it even more global. And secondly, I think that men and women will end up playing together. I think that the biological facts of life will dictate that there will be fewer women than men in the top flights, but hell, over time even that will probably change.
posted by JJ at 09:43 AM on January 16, 2004
JJ, do you think the women who are good enough to play the men's tour, and choose to do so will suffer because they will win less prize money and fewer majors? From Annika's standpoint, if we take as a given she is the preeminent women's player, does she create more of a legacy for herself by playing average golf on the men's tour or making millions and winning majors on the women's tour? Which option has more cachet?
posted by vito90 at 10:13 AM on January 16, 2004
I think the mentality involved there doesn't much care about the cachet (or even the cash). All other things being equal, some people just want to push themselves in the highest league available to them. I suppose the worry for the likes of Annika is that she gets stale or bored of beating the girls all the time and wants a new challenge. It's a bit of an Alexander of Macedonia scenario - she won't be happy until she's crying salt tears because there are no more worlds left to conquer! Seriously though, I don't think there's any reason why Annika couldn't rise to be a superstar on the men's tour. I don't think that she would necessarily only be an average player. How did Tiger do in his first ever PGA Tour event? I don't know the answer, but I suspect Annika didn't disgrace herself by any means last year by comparison. As for the cachet and the kudos - that's a rocky road to tread for a bloke. Some blokes would scoff and say that even the USPGA has more kudos attached than any lady's major - but I wouldn't want to comment *chicken*
posted by JJ at 10:33 AM on January 16, 2004
great Q&A guys!!!!
posted by garfield at 02:26 PM on January 16, 2004
That was all JJ, I was just caddying. Thanks for the time and effort.
posted by vito90 at 03:09 PM on January 16, 2004
I guess it's up to me to ruin this great discussion. I know she's still in ninth grade, but she's cute.
posted by dusted at 12:12 AM on January 17, 2004
And oh yeah, what a great performance!
posted by dusted at 12:13 AM on January 17, 2004
dust: you're just looking for an excuse to dance on top of an SUV, aren't you?
posted by forksclovetofu at 02:54 AM on January 17, 2004
dusted: I was thinking the same thing. In 5 years, she's going to be a real looker.
posted by grum@work at 09:32 AM on January 17, 2004
She missed the cut by one shot, shooting 72-68. Her score was 11 strokes behind the leader. Her score beat notables Jeff Sluman and Scott "the Choke" Hoch . She holed two putts of over 50 feet during the round as well.
posted by vito90 at 01:31 PM on January 17, 2004
Here's the only thing that annoys me — ever damned promo for the tourney featured nothing but Wie until she missed the cut. It was like the rest of the field didn't exist. That's just too lopsided.
posted by wfrazerjr at 12:07 AM on January 18, 2004
Well, this isn't exactly a PGA event that's going to get much coverage normally, frazer. Like the Colonial, there's not a whole lot of national coverage, and this isn't exactly high time for the PGA tour anyways, so I chalk it up to a pretty successful PR event, even if it was a one-trick program.
posted by Ufez Jones at 12:13 AM on January 18, 2004
Must resist obvious joke ... must resist ... Sponsors' exemptions are commonplace in pro golf, so I don't have a problem with women getting invites to these events. We're still at a point where it attracts international publicity and helps event organizers, which benefits players and a bunch of other people. As the novelty value wears off, though, some female golfer should attempt to play her way onto the men's tour or to an open event. That would be impressive.