11/21/24
May 15, 2016
SportsFilter: The Sunday Huddle:
A place to discuss the sports stories that aren't making news, share links that aren't quite front-page material, and diagram plays on your hand. Remember to count to five Mississippi before commenting in anger.
(New NBA Pick 'Em post will be up in an hour or so)
posted by Ufez Jones at 06:01 PM on May 15, 2016
Between the NHL and NBA, we've had our share of blowout Game 7's this spring.
Wonder if anyone has theorized about this sort of result in final elimination games, as it doesn't seem to be a rare occurrence.
posted by beaverboard at 06:34 PM on May 15, 2016
Toronto Blue Jays brawl with Texas Rangers
posted by tommybiden at 07:46 PM on May 15, 2016
Man that was satisfying. Bautista flips bats and takes a punch operatically.
posted by rcade at 08:17 PM on May 15, 2016
Man that was satisfying. Bautista flips bats and takes a punch operatically.
I knew you'd like it.
Just a reminder:
Also, he has a history of escalating things by doing the "shove and punch" maneuver.
It's like he's this generation's Milton Bradley (dirty, unhinged, and quick to temper).
posted by grum@work at 08:49 PM on May 15, 2016
Bautista turtles once again.
I'm not sure where you get that from. He got punched, he stayed on his feet, and wasn't given a chance to retaliate because Beltre wrapped his arms around him.
Bautista's quote after the game:
"He got me pretty good, so I have to give him that, but it takes maybe a bigger man to knock me down"
posted by grum@work at 08:52 PM on May 15, 2016
Oh, and one more example of L'il Stinky being a jerk.
Seriously...he's a raving nutcase.
posted by grum@work at 09:11 PM on May 15, 2016
Punching someone isn't that dirty in a sport that allows brawls. Bautista's slide is illegal now because of the potential to injure. Odor treating it like a palpably offensive act is ahead of the curve. Sometimes you set the trend.
I'm seeing Odor as someone who shouldn't be where he is -- the Rangers didn't think he'd be their regular second baseman -- who succeeds by will. His hot temper probably helps that trait.
If his punch had glanced off Bautista there'd be little outrage. Players who beef sometimes throw down. But it was one of the best punches ever thrown a Major League fight. People will be buying him beers in Texas for a long time. I hope he doesn't have alcohol issues.
posted by rcade at 09:14 PM on May 15, 2016
Bautista's slide is illegal now because of the potential to injure.
Like I said, the fact that Odor had a problem with the slide is the height of hypocrisy given his history of dirty slides. His spiking of the Angels player was MUCH worse than what Bautista did.
That's okay. I can always watch this again and smile.
posted by grum@work at 09:32 PM on May 15, 2016
Punching someone isn't that dirty in a sport that allows brawls
Where on the dirty scale does throwing at a runner's head fall?
It seems Odor intentionally (only he knows for sure) submarined the throw to 1st, barely missing Bautista's head.
posted by tommybiden at 09:34 PM on May 15, 2016
Not defending the Stinky Possum at all, but saying a (barely) 22-year-old has a history of anything is kind of premature.
Pretty sure Bautista was cocking his own punch before he got clocked too. Which is fine. But I don't buy his innocence here.
posted by Ufez Jones at 09:41 PM on May 15, 2016
but saying a (barely) 22-year-old has a history of anything is kind of premature.
Two dirty slides and starting a brawl (before today).
That's a lot to do before he turns 23, man.
posted by grum@work at 10:48 PM on May 15, 2016
posted by holden at 11:21 PM on May 15, 2016
Where on the dirty scale does throwing at a runner's head fall?
Not high. A ball that has barely left your hand yet isn't going to hurt a helmeted head. It was about as effective an attempt to injure as slapping at Bautista with his gloved hand.
(If Odor was capable of changing the throw to submarine in the split-second after learning Bautista was sliding dirty he is our greatest living ballplayer.)
Please baseball gods let Toronto and Texas meet in the playoffs. I don't ask you for much but I'm asking you for this.
posted by rcade at 11:47 PM on May 15, 2016
"Let me put it this way. "Do I want to see 25 of those bat flips in every series? No. Do I understand how the bat flip happened in that particular inning, and in that particular game, I do understand it. And I think it probably is a good thing for the game.'' -- Rob Manfred
Under the same reasoning, Odor punching Bautista in the face was a good thing for the game. Millionaires hating each other is quality entertainment.
When you see the video at the link above, Bautista definitely was going to take a swing at Odor before the punch of the year. He just wasn't fast enough.
P.s. Anyone know if Bautista and Beltre are friends? Beltre held onto him a long time to keep him out of the fracas.
posted by rcade at 12:11 AM on May 16, 2016
If Odor was capable of changing the throw to submarine in the split-second after learning Bautista was sliding dirty he is our greatest living ballplayer.
You're kidding, right?
These are elite athletes who make these kind of split-second decisions all the time.
He doesn't have to make a split-second adjustment, he simply keeps making the adjustments as Bautista's head changes position (in a straight line).
These are players that hit 97mph fastballs, 86 mph changeups, and 92 mph sinkers, all without knowing which pitch is coming, and with much less time to adjust than Odor had.
Where was that throw going? If you watched the rest of the throw, it spikes into the ground about 40 feet in front of first base. Since he's already released the throw before Bautista misses him, what explanation do you have for Odor's wild inaccuracy? If he isn't aiming at Bautista's head, why is his arm action so bad?
posted by grum@work at 08:23 AM on May 16, 2016
When you see the video at the link above, Bautista definitely was going to take a swing at Odor before the punch of the year.
Actually, he only starts to cock his fist because Odor started to swing at him. He's bring his arm up and then as the punch starts to come in, only then does he start to make a fist. If anything, he's getting ready to shove/grab Odor for a typical baseball "fight".
posted by grum@work at 08:24 AM on May 16, 2016
Odor gets the Kardashian Award for handbagging Bautista with his glove after the big punch.
That either translates into extra scoring or a half point deduction. Can't decide which.
This is really a massive uptick in the connection between these two teams. I'm concerned that MLB fans are going to forget that there is quality baseball being played in Chicago this season, at both ends of town.
Rcade, I would suggest starting a playoff beard today. You could be Tebow by this weekend, Joe Thornton by October.
posted by beaverboard at 08:26 AM on May 16, 2016
Anyone know if Bautista and Beltre are friends? Beltre held onto him a long time to keep him out of the fracas.
It was probably a mutual thing.
Beltre: I'll keep you from getting a bigger suspension.
Bautista: Okay. And I'll let you hold on to me to keep you out of the fracas so no one can have a chance to rub your head.
posted by grum@work at 08:28 AM on May 16, 2016
Explain to me how he's NOT aiming at Bautista, and that the throw was normal. Look where the ball hits the dirt.
posted by grum@work at 08:29 AM on May 16, 2016
Please baseball gods let Toronto and Texas meet in the playoffs.
I would have thought Rangers fans would have PTSD about the playoffs by now. :)
posted by grum@work at 08:31 AM on May 16, 2016
Since he's already released the throw before Bautista misses him, what explanation do you have for Odor's wild inaccuracy?
The person clambering into him to disrupt his throw could have something to do with it.
I don't think a player would throw at someone's head from a distance of 0-6 inches to hurt them. That move isn't likely to hurt much and could break the thrower's fingers or wrist, like what happens to quarterbacks whose hands hit somebody right after releasing a pass.
Beltre and Bautista reminded me of what usually happens in brawls. Wily veterans from opposite teams pick each other as dance partners and neither one fights.
Does anyone know when the play ended? It looked like the Jays runner at first could have kept on going around the bases (though he'd later be called out on a double play).
posted by rcade at 09:12 AM on May 16, 2016
I would have thought Rangers fans would have PTSD about the playoffs by now. :)
Having suffered through decades of playoff irrelevance, I'll take heartbreak every year over not making it to the dance at all.
posted by Ufez Jones at 10:29 AM on May 16, 2016
Since we're deep in the quagmire of baseball's unwritten rules already, what do people think of the Jays' contention that throwing at Bautista was supposed to happen earlier in the series or not at all? I find that a curious notion: You can use your pitcher as a weapon of vengeance, but not late in the final game of our season series.
posted by rcade at 10:34 AM on May 16, 2016
I don't think a player would throw at someone's head from a distance of 0-6 inches to hurt them.
Then why was his arm was at a much lower slot to throw before Bautista got there?
Previous double plays by Odor after receiving a toss from the left side of the infield:
All of his throws are over hand. Guess why? Because he doesn't want to hit the runner coming into the bag when he's making the throw.
The one time he decides to throw side arm just happens to be when Bautista is coming in?
Balance things up and pull my other leg this time.
Does anyone know when the play ended? It looked like the Jays runner at first could have kept on going around the bases (though he'd later be called out on a double play).
The second base umpire called the double-play (because of Bautista's slide) almost instantly.
You can seem him call the force play at second, and then immediately declare another out while pointing at Bautista and then first base.
posted by grum@work at 10:49 AM on May 16, 2016
I kind of like irrational (probably more like less rational) homer grum as a change-of-pace from analytical grum.
I don't know whether Odor was throwing at Bautista's head (seems plausible), but I'm not sure the three examples above are particularly instructive. In each of those other DPs, he catches the ball at waist level or above. In the play from yesterday, Beltre seems to have short-armed the throw and Odor receives it down around his shin, and if you're trying for a quick exchange and throw in that position, a side-arm throw seems about as good an approach as any.
posted by holden at 11:54 AM on May 16, 2016
The guys on MLB Tonight thought he was throwing at Bautista. Torii Hunter thought he was throwing at Bautista.
posted by grum@work at 11:59 AM on May 16, 2016
There's another purpose to sidearming the throw to first -- it forces the runner on a rampage to come in lower. Everybody knew when the grounder was hit that Bautista would slide like a linebacker. He was pissed about getting hit.
"You know you're taught to throw low to prevent a guy from coming in high." -- Justin Verlander to Torii Hunter
"That's true." -- Hunter
posted by rcade at 01:03 PM on May 16, 2016
"You know you're taught to throw low to prevent a guy from coming in high."
Yeah, I think it started as this but he tried to throw that ball through his face once he saw where the slide was coming. Considering he stuck his hand, sans ball, in his face two seconds later it looks pretty obvious to me that he was throwing at him. Not that I really care. Both players wanted to hurt, though probably not injure, each other and one of them turned out to be better at it and will pay accordingly.
posted by tron7 at 02:30 PM on May 16, 2016
By the way, inside this humourous article by Baseball Prospectus about the brawl, there is an animated gif of Odor being tagged by Donaldson at third base from a game in Toronto earlier this year.
Please note Odor's reaction as Donaldson walks off the field.
It was a simple tag, and it might have been "high" or "hard" because he was trying to dodge the tag and Donaldson had to make sure it was applied.
Stinky seems to be a cauldron of rage, ready to boil over at any moment.
Or, as the BP writer says:
but thanks to Josh Donaldson's benign tag a few days ago, we can ignore all those hot takes and remember that it's about Rougned Odor really loving to fight. That's all. You can judge or not judge, celebrate it or plead for somebody to think about the children, but at the end of the day, Rougie Odor needs somebody to slug.
posted by grum@work at 04:39 PM on May 16, 2016
posted by grum@work at 04:49 PM on May 16, 2016
I kind of like irrational (probably more like less rational) homer grum as a change-of-pace from analytical grum.
I prefer the term "focused emotions".
I'm pretty sure I was this verbose, determined, persistent, and annoying when someone posted something about "pitcher wins" or RBIs.
posted by grum@work at 04:52 PM on May 16, 2016
I saw that during the prediction contest as to how many games Odor will be suspended, one commentator thought 10 games was about right because that's what Michael Barrett got for punching Pierzynski at home plate.
For goodness sake, that is no yardstick to go by. You have to take career long provocation and deservedness into account. Barrett probably got several dozen fruit baskets and boxes of bon bons from other players and managers who wished they could have been the ones to do the deed.
posted by beaverboard at 05:18 PM on May 16, 2016
Don't know enough of Odor to know what reputation he has but certainly know what Bautista is all about. If Odor is indeed known for stirring the pot then the 2 of them working things out the way they did doesn't seem out of line. A much better solution than having the Jays or Rangers pitchers throw at the oppositions' heads or a runner who is out by 20 feet trying to injure a fielder.
Bottom line, Odor stood up for himself while Bautista hit and ran ... again.
posted by cixelsyd at 06:14 PM on May 16, 2016
Bottom line, Odor stood up for himself while Bautista hit and ran ... again.
I have no idea what you are talking about. "Hit and ran again"?
posted by grum@work at 06:38 PM on May 16, 2016
The second base umpire called the double-play (because of Bautista's slide) almost instantly.
This was as close to an automatic call for interference and a double play as possible. Bautista started his slide late, it was more of a rolling block than a conventional slide, and the thing that sold the umpire was that the slide went past the bag. No doubt on that call.
posted by Howard_T at 10:00 PM on May 16, 2016
I have no idea what you are talking about. "Hit and ran again"?
Do they not make takes this hot up in Canada?
posted by tron7 at 01:39 AM on May 17, 2016
Do they not make takes this hot up in Canada?
Oh, man. I'm 45 years old, and I don't listen to terrestrial radio. If that's a musical reference, I'm lost.
posted by grum@work at 06:23 AM on May 17, 2016
New battle cry in hockey fights throughout Quebec: "Je t'Odor"
posted by beaverboard at 07:12 AM on May 17, 2016
I have no idea what you are talking about. "Hit and ran again"?
I assume it's a reference to hitting massive home runs and trotting around the bases. Must be it.
posted by yerfatma at 09:10 AM on May 17, 2016
Odor claims self-defense.
Bautista said he only got rocked because it was a sucker punch.
When two people are squared up to each other exchanging words and shoving is involved, the first punch isn't a sucker punch.
He should just appreciate the aesthetic beauty of the punch the way Toronto fandom wanted the bat flip to be appreciated.
posted by rcade at 03:05 PM on May 17, 2016
posted by yerfatma at 03:42 PM on May 17, 2016
When two people are squared up to each other exchanging words and shoving is involved
Bautista didn't say anything and he didn't shove anyone before the punch. So it was one person squared up, exchanging words, shoving, and then punching.
Odor claims self-defense.
Shoves first and punches first and claims self-defense?
I'll give him credit for not pulling any punches for that whopper of a tale.
posted by grum@work at 04:19 PM on May 17, 2016
Bautista didn't say anything and he didn't shove anyone before the punch. So it was one person squared up, exchanging words, shoving, and then punching.
Bautista was stepping into him before he got shoved. They were almost chest to chest. That's squaring up. You can see it in the first video, which also has new angles on the fight.
You're batting 1.000 in homer takes. Bautista slid dirty and took a punch in the mouth that was probably deserved. I'd feel differently if he got hurt, of course, but I think the only casualties were his sunglasses and his pride.
Odor got 8 games and probably will lose at least 5 after appeal. That's fair. I hope Bautista gets a game for that slide.
posted by rcade at 04:55 PM on May 17, 2016
One action that has been overlooked in this entire situation is that Matt Bush stuck around after he hit Bautista.
That's something, I guess.
posted by tommybiden at 05:50 PM on May 17, 2016
Bautista was stepping into him before he got shoved. They were almost chest to chest. That's squaring up.
But he didn't shove him. He didn't punch him. He didn't even make a move to punch him until Odor's fist was half way to connecting.
Homer take you may think, but image evidence says that.
Explain how Odor is "defending himself".
posted by grum@work at 07:34 PM on May 17, 2016
rcade: Maybe you can throw some cash into this GoFundMe. ;)
My favourite comment:
Sally Sampson 2 hours ago
I think I screwed up by donating to this. There's no indication that the money goes to anyone but the creator of the fund, James Ray. The money goes straight to him.
I'd like to think that it's a Blue Jays fan that set this up...
posted by grum@work at 08:10 PM on May 17, 2016
Explain how Odor is "defending himself".
I didn't say Odor was defending himself. I said Bautista was squaring up, which made his complaint about a sucker punch whiny and ridiculous.
Bautista is not an idiot. He's an old pro. He knew when he slid that it might spark a brawl. Watch how he popped up instantly and spun around to face Odor. Both of them stepped towards each other aggressively.
Did he expect a punch like that? Maybe not. Was it a sucker punch? Please.
I hope the Rangers call up Roughned Odor to sub for Roughned Odor.
P.s. All GoFundMes work that way. You have to trust the organizer not to abscond with the lucre.
posted by rcade at 08:58 PM on May 17, 2016
Roughned's rapidly becoming a folk hero in DFW -- the anti-Clint Longley. This list of 10 things about him includes one I didn't know: He's a former Minor Leaguer of the Year and was the youngest rookie to play a game in 2014.
posted by rcade at 09:04 PM on May 17, 2016
And if we're bringing up history, Bautista isn't even clean this young season.
posted by Ufez Jones at 09:14 PM on May 17, 2016
Wild. Bautista cost the Jays the game with that leg grab.
posted by rcade at 09:26 PM on May 17, 2016
Wild. Bautista cost the Jays the game with that leg grab.
This is news to people?
It was a big deal when it happened over a month ago. He was the first player to get dinged under the new "Utley Rule". Since then, the enforcement for it has been..suspect, at best.
(For example, this was ruled a legal slide.)
And, as a final statement, I ask rcade to explain to me the difference between Bautista's slide into Odor, and this slide into a short stop three weeks ago. Is Bautista's any more dangerous or aggressive than that one (which didn't result in a brawl)?
Oh, who was that sliding hard into the legs of the fielder, taking him out? Just one guess!
posted by grum@work at 09:42 PM on May 17, 2016
I said Bautista was squaring up, which made his complaint about a sucker punch whiny and ridiculous.
I've never defended the phrase "sucker punch". I've attacked the statement that what Odor did was "self-defense".
posted by grum@work at 09:43 PM on May 17, 2016
Wild. Bautista cost the Jays the game with that leg grab.
Spent a week listening to Toronto media trying to justify that slide as a normal play and being astonished the rule was applied. Bautista put on quite the whine as well.
It is possible the next time he pulls that crap, and trust me he will, MLB loses a quality infielder for the season due to injury.
posted by cixelsyd at 09:56 PM on May 17, 2016
And, as a final statement, I ask rcade to explain to me the difference between Bautista's slide into Odor, and this slide into a short stop three weeks ago. Is Bautista's any more dangerous or aggressive than that one (which didn't result in a brawl)?
21-year-veteran play by play broadcaster Tom Grieve seemed to do a pretty good job of that in the video you linked.
posted by Ufez Jones at 10:12 PM on May 17, 2016
FWIW, I still stand by my first comment in this thread: I don't find Rougie's actions defensible, I'm fine with him being suspended 8 (or 10 or 5 or whatever it winds up being) games. I just don't buy Bautista as an innocent victim (and I had zero problem with the batflip in the ALDS).
Curious as to how Jays fans feel about this Don Brennan column though. I don't know him from anyone, so if he's a muckity BS peddler, don't worry about it. The DFW media has plenty of those as well.
posted by Ufez Jones at 10:24 PM on May 17, 2016
21-year-veteran play by play broadcaster Tom Grieve seemed to do a pretty good job of that in the video you linked.
The Texas Rangers broadcaster (and former Texas Ranger himself) didn't see anything wrong with the Texas Rangers player's action? I'm shocked!
I mean, the line "He did SLIGHTLY slide to the right of the base." is a howler of a homer line, as is the description that Simmons was "3 feet in front of the bag" and "in the base path".
But you do see the distinct similarities, right? He slid hard into the fielder's legs and took him out, just like Bautista did with Odor. He also slid past the base, but in Odor's case, he made a token reach back to touch the bag after he went by. The difference is that Simmons didn't get up and try to start a fight.
(Also, Bautista went right over the bag, while Odor went to the right of the bag in an attempt to take out Simmons.)
Curious as to how Jays fans feel about this Don Brennan column though. I don't know him from anyone, so if he's a muckity BS peddler, don't worry about it.
He's writing for the Ottawa Sun, so pretty much none of the local fans will have read anything he's written. Besides, the first time one of their sports writers says something positive about a Toronto team (that isn't winning), it'll be a miracle. Also, throw in the "look at me!" page view "hot take" (a phrase I learned today), and it's pretty much expected. I mean, he has one article that says "Slumping Ottawa Senators should not fire coach." and then a month later has an article that says "Senators coaching change would make sense."
Bautista put on quite the whine as well.
No, he didn't. When the play was reviewed and the game ended, he went straight into the dugout. He didn't argue, he didn't yell, he didn't show any emotion about it. When asked about it after the game, he said:
"I feel like I respect the rule, that it was an absolutely clean slide," Bautista said. "And it's just disappointing to lose a major league baseball game, with so much at stake every day here. We put a lot into the game since we were little kids and then to all of a sudden have everything taken away like that is just strange."
That's not "whining".
posted by grum@work at 11:06 PM on May 17, 2016
I'd call it a fine whine. The "little kids" part in particular is pitiable. I enjoyed the salty taste of his tears.
Is Bautista's any more dangerous or aggressive than that one (which didn't result in a brawl)?
The Odor slide was the subject of a replay review in New York and it was not deemed an illegal slide. I agree with the call.
posted by rcade at 11:19 PM on May 17, 2016
The Texas Rangers broadcaster (and former Texas Ranger himself) didn't see anything wrong with the Texas Rangers player's action? I'm shocked!
If you can listen to that call without bias, you'd see it's a an example of TAG being about as vanilla and non-homery as he's always been (which he's often criticized for). He's about as straight up as it gets for a non-national guy.
I mean, the line "He did SLIGHTLY slide to the right of the base." is a howler of a homer line, as is the description that Simmons was "3 feet in front of the bag" and "in the base path".
Oh come on now, that's a bad angle and you know it. Call it 2.5 feet in front of the bag if you want, but that's awfully nitpicky. Plus it makes a big difference that the throw from the Odor slide here came from first base instead of third in the Bautista slide and Joey Bats came in knees up.
But as someone that worked in the old Dallas School Book Depository for several years, this is getting awfully Zapruder-y about an event that has been interesting but not all that important in the long run for my taste.
posted by Ufez Jones at 12:06 AM on May 18, 2016
the difference between Bautista's slide into Odor, and this slide into a short stop three weeks ago
Looking at it from the viewpoint of an umpire, there are a number of differences. First of all, Bautista went into a sort of rolling block as opposed to a straight slide. The slide in the linked video is the sort taught by youth coaches everywhere, that is with one leg tucked, the other extended toward the base, and the head up. Bautista went past the base and did not even attempt to reach back for the bag. The slide in the video shows the player sliding past the bag, but he reached for the bag and held it as he stopped. In short, the video shows a baseball slide, while Bautista showed a bad take out attempt.
Now, since the legality of the slide is a judgement call, anybody who argues with me will be ejected from this discussion!!! (only kidding, but rules are rules)
posted by Howard_T at 12:27 AM on May 18, 2016
Is Bautista's any more dangerous or aggressive than that one (which didn't result in a brawl)?
The Odor slide was the subject of a replay review in New York and it was not deemed an illegal slide. I agree with the call.
That's not the question I asked. I didn't challenge the legality of the slide (since, as I've pointed out in the other picture, it seems to be still in flux), I asked about the dangerous nature or aggressiveness of the slide.
If Bautista had done that to Odor, what do you think Odor's reaction would have been?
posted by grum@work at 06:17 AM on May 18, 2016
Out of all this, I did find this pretty funny.
Sam Dyson, for aggressive actions during the brawl, was fined by the league. He's the only one that ended up with any visible injuries. It looks like his foray into the brawl was about as successful as his pitch from October.
posted by grum@work at 06:26 AM on May 18, 2016
As for the suspensions, I have no problem with the ones that were handed out, and the players/coaches that were fined. They are all within the range I would have expected, and I don't think any one player/team has too much to complain about.
I didn't expect Bush to get punished (there is too much precedence of the instigator getting away with it because no warnings had been issued before hand), even though the umpire knew something was up because he actually issued warnings after he hit Bautista.
Side note: I think that's bullshit, by the way. Issuing a warning after the first HBP means that the initiator gets away with it and the other team gets no response (using a pitcher). I'm not saying the second team should be allowed to go headhunting (I never proscribe to that logic) but Chavez's throw into Fielder's enormous ass would have been a perfectly acceptable response to the Bautista plunking (if the rest of the stuff hadn't happened).
posted by grum@work at 08:57 AM on May 18, 2016
If Bautista had done that to Odor, what do you think Odor's reaction would have been?
Under normal circumstances -- no history between the clubs or players, no current cycle of payback -- I think Odor would have reacted the way Simmons did.
posted by rcade at 09:11 AM on May 18, 2016
Odor claims self-defense.
This is one of the more ridiculous statements I've seen defended around here.
posted by tron7 at 05:53 PM on May 18, 2016
In case I'm not around for the NBA pick'em:
Golden State in 6
Cavaliers in 5 (regardless of opponent)