04/20/24
May 22, 2012
SportsFilter: The Tuesday Huddle:
A place to discuss the sports stories that aren't making news, share links that aren't quite front-page material, and diagram plays on your hand. Remember to count to five Mississippi before commenting in anger.
Because this sort of thing just sits in my brain and festers until I can release it upon the world, time for a trivia question about Jamie Moyer:
One of the talking points about Jamie Moyer's start last night (other than the fact that he had 28 MLB wins before Giancarlo (Mike) Stanton was born) was that he has now pitched in a record 50 different MLB ballparks during his career.
The question is:
Can you name the 3 MLB ballparks that Jamie Moyer has not pitched that were around during his career (1986-2012)?
Hints:
One isn't used for baseball any more.
One doesn't exist any more.
One is being used by a MLB team.
And, only one of them he would have been able to pitch in during his career (barring a World Series appearance), but only for about 2 months.
posted by grum@work at 11:33 AM on May 22, 2012
I'm supposed to be working! All I've got so far is neither Candlestick, Memorial Stadium, (old) Comiskey nor Fulton County are answers. For anyone who wants to dig, Jamie Moyer (you'll want "Game Logs") and a list of old stadia.
posted by yerfatma at 11:40 AM on May 22, 2012
Big 12/SEC bowl deal shows ACC, Big East were remiss in not lobbying for eight-team playoff: Dan Wetzel explains the corruption and shortsightedness in plain English. Though if the concussion issue has the impact we discussed last week his points may be moot soon enough.
posted by billsaysthis at 11:52 AM on May 22, 2012
yerfatma is correct about the ballpark that doesn't exist any more.
If you want to use the resource I did to get a list of ballparks he's played in, you can always just visit Baseball Reference and pull up his career pitching splits by stadium. You'll just have to figure out which ballparks are NOT in the list.
(BR usually has the answer to almost every baseball question you could ask.)
posted by grum@work at 11:55 AM on May 22, 2012
One of them is Toronto's original ball park, right?
Target field is another?
posted by NoMich at 12:47 PM on May 22, 2012
NoMich: Correct. Yerfatma got Exhibition Stadium (Moyer was in the AL for all of 2 months before they closed it for SkyDome), and Minnesota's new Target Field is one where Moyer won't play in this year barring a trade or a (*snicker*) Twins/Rockies World Series.
The last ballpark is another one that only existed for a short time during Moyer's career AND was in the other league (and the team never would have visited except for playoffs).
posted by grum@work at 12:56 PM on May 22, 2012
The Old Mile High Stadium? Moyer was with the Orioles during the two years the Rockies played there.
posted by tron7 at 12:59 PM on May 22, 2012
tron7: That's the last one.
posted by grum@work at 01:10 PM on May 22, 2012
If only hockey-reference.com was as complete as the baseball one.
I wonder which player played in the most NHL rinks...
I think someone who played from 1992 to 2003 could have played in a possible 52 different arenas.
(Physically different arenas, not just name changes.)
NHL teams with only one arena during that time period (13):
NJ, NYI, NYR, PITT, ATL, CMB, DET, NASH, CAL, EDM, VAN, ANA, MINN
NHL teams with two arenas during that time period (17):
PHIL, BOS, BUF, MON, OTT, TOR, CAR, FLA, TB, WASH, CHI, STL, COL, DAL, LA, PHX, SJ
Teams that don't exist any more (4):
Hartford Whalers, Winnipeg Jets (original flavour), Quebec Nordiques, Minnesota North Stars
One-time use for official game (1):
Edmonton Commonwealth Stadium (original Heritage/Winter Classic)
Since 2003, there have been 14 more locations for NHL games:
New arenas (2): NJ, PITT
New team (1): WINN (new flavour)
Outdoor (6): BUFF, CHI, BOS, PITT, CAL, PHIL
European (5): London, Stockholm, Prague, Helsinki, Berlin
posted by grum@work at 01:42 PM on May 22, 2012
If you coach youth baseball with a time rule after which no new inning can start, do yourself a favor: Make the coaches and ump agree pre-game on what the exact start time is. (In Little League, it's supposed to be the moment that pregame meeting ends.)
My son's team is 72 hours into a playoff controversy because the two sides don't agree on what the start time was. It's parent on parent carnage.
posted by rcade at 01:46 PM on May 22, 2012
My son's team is 72 hours into a playoff controversy because the two sides don't agree on what the start time was. It's parent on parent carnage.
I'm guessing "Call it a draw/play it over" isn't an option?
posted by grum@work at 01:56 PM on May 22, 2012
You guess correctly. We won after five innings when the game was two hours and two minutes old. Our kids were standing at first celebrating. On to the championship game!
The opposing coach said, no, wait, the game started eight minutes after the scheduled time. So it's only one hour and fifty four minutes old. Play must continue.
So my team has to take the field again, completely freaking out, and loses in the sixth after being told they won.
The time rule will wreak carnage on the goodwill in your league if the coaches don't agree before it matters on exactly when the game started.
posted by rcade at 02:08 PM on May 22, 2012
I think I speak for everyone here when I say if this doesn't end in you being hit with a Mike Greenwell-esque lifetime ban from Florida Little League baseball, we're going to be disappointed.
posted by yerfatma at 02:55 PM on May 22, 2012
I missed one other location where regulation NHL games were played:
Tokyo, Japan.
The NHL played three 2-game series in that 1992-2003 time span (1997, 1998, 2000).
So that's 53 different locations.
posted by grum@work at 02:56 PM on May 22, 2012
I think I speak for everyone here when I say if this doesn't end in you being hit with a Mike Greenwell-esque lifetime ban from Florida Little League baseball, we're going to be disappointed.
Nice. I don't settle problems with my fists. I do it like Johnny Letter on an old Mike Myers SNL skit, by writing an incisively worded letter from the safety of my home.
I almost got to see a fight at the pitcher's mound between a former Marine and a former member of special forces. I was caught in the middle and would've been shredded worse than Steve Buscemi in Fargo.
posted by rcade at 03:10 PM on May 22, 2012
Time limits are great for the regular season but really suck for playoff games. The league should just bite the bullet and rent the field for an extra hour for the playoff games.
posted by tron7 at 03:28 PM on May 22, 2012
The sad part is we just added fields and have more than we usually need.
I just found out from the national Little League that time rules are all local.
posted by rcade at 05:00 PM on May 22, 2012
Time limits are great for the regular season but really suck for playoff games
I won't agree that time limits are great for baseball games at all, but certainly should never apply for playoffs. With time limits I envision the possibility of the coach of a team with the lead adopting the Derek Jeter batting delay strategy, or something similar.
Let the kids play. It's terrible for the kids on both sides.
posted by cixelsyd at 06:01 PM on May 22, 2012
grum@work - thank you for that trivia question and I'd love for there to be more genuinely challenging trivia in the huddle!
posted by Joey Michaels at 06:01 PM on May 22, 2012
With time limits I envision the possibility of the coach of a team with the lead adopting the Derek Jeter batting delay strategy, or something similar.
The opposing coach told me he was about to tell his pitcher to intentionally throw a wild pitch to let in a fifth run and end the inning.
We could have told our kids never to swing and to step out of the box after every pitch, but that kind of gamesmanship is lousy baseball. It's like telling the weaker hitting kids never to swing so they get more walks. We told all our kids if they liked the pitch to go up there and rip. Now they're all hitting.
posted by rcade at 08:51 PM on May 22, 2012
Only two teams in the NHL playoffs have beaten the #1, #2, and #3 seeds in the same playoff (since they switched to this format).
And both of them (2012 LA Kings and 2004 Calgary Flames) were coached by Darryl (Coach Underdog) Sutter.
posted by grum@work at 01:25 AM on May 23, 2012
I won't agree that time limits are great for baseball games at all
Yeah, great was the wrong word. Acceptable or necessary would have been better and I was referring strictly to little league or rec leagues.
posted by tron7 at 10:21 AM on May 23, 2012
I'd be a fan of pitch time limits. As it stands, it is not the length of a baseball game that bothers me. It's all the theatrics between each pitch and shuffling about, readjusting, etc, between every pitch that I loose any attention for a MLB game.
posted by jmd82 at 10:31 AM on May 23, 2012
That's one reason why I so admired and feared the majestic Bob Gibson. He worked fast.
posted by beaverboard at 01:12 PM on May 23, 2012
You played against Bob Gibson in little league?
posted by tahoemoj at 02:47 PM on May 23, 2012
Time was, back in the olden days, before there was any of this "body armor" and "crowding the plate," and bullshit "bench warnings" after "purpose pitches," Bob Gibson was not afraid to put one up under the chin of a batter who looked a little too comfortable in the batter's box, even if that batter was an 11 year-old, and he would do it from an 18-inch high mound, and he would glare at you as the ball came back from the catcher like you had done something wrong, hell, like you had invited it.
posted by holden at 05:03 PM on May 23, 2012
Bob Gibson's 32nd in HBP (102) for all seasons 1950 and beyond.
#1 is Randy Johnson (190), and other scary pitchers ahead of Gibson include Tim Wakefiled, Charlie Hough, Jamie Moyer, Greg Maddux, Phil Niekro, and, uh, Aaron Sele.
There are a couple of old-timer pitchers that deserve their reputations:
Nolan Ryan (158)
Jim Bunning (160)
Don Drysdale (154)
and modern day guys (outside of Johnson):
Roger Clemens (159)
Pedro Martinez (141)
Dave Stieb (129)
posted by grum@work at 09:47 PM on May 23, 2012
I find it amazing that Randy Johnson hit 190 people and only ever killed a bird.
I sometimes forget that Jim Bunning has been an asshole for most of a century. It's amazing how long you can keep living on pure evil coursing through your veins.
posted by Etrigan at 10:11 PM on May 23, 2012
Aaron Sele
Still one of my favorite baseball memories is seeing a player start to charge the mound on a young Sele only for him to disappear from the frame. Run it back and show it in slow motion, he got absolutely flattened by Mo Vaughn running (it was a long time ago) in from first. Has to be among the Top 10 Worst Decisions Made in Baseball.
On edit: well, it's not as awesome as I remember, but bless you Internet. I still like my memory better, so I'll keep that one.
posted by yerfatma at 07:23 AM on May 24, 2012
Still all kinds of awesome. Mo-mentum!
posted by rcade at 08:33 AM on May 24, 2012
grum -- Bob Gibson is the most intimidating pitcher of all time! It was confirmed in a scientific study conducted by Sports Illustrated. [As an aside, I believe there is also one out there somewhere establishing Jim Rice as the most feared hitter of the late-70s to mid-80s.]
Kidding aside, you do not have to hit batters to intimidate them and my stream-of-consciousness post above was not meant to imply that Gibson would hit people, rather just brush them back. Even little leaguers.
Your list is interesting, though, in that there are a number of knuckleballers on there, which I suppose is not surprising considering that they are not always sure where a pitch is going and batters do not have a major incentive (in terms of potential pain avoided) to get out of the way of a floater.
I would be curious to see how the numbers break down on an innings pitched basis -- even with all the complete games that Gibson threw, my guess would be that guys like Maddux, Clemens, and Ryan threw over a thousand more innings than Gibson. I am sure all of those guys probably still had more HBP on an HBP/IP basis, but I bet it closes the gap somewhat. Also, curious if there is a historical correlation in terms of more HBP in the helmet era and then the body-armor era, either because pitchers or hitters got more aggressive.
posted by holden at 09:45 AM on May 24, 2012
Your list is interesting, though, in that there are a number of knuckleballers on there, which I suppose is not surprising considering that they are not always sure where a pitch is going and batters do not have a major incentive (in terms of potential pain avoided) to get out of the way of a floater.
On pitches that slow you have time to think about staying in it's path. Batters evade fastballs just on reflex most of the time.
posted by tron7 at 11:54 AM on May 24, 2012
I would be curious to see how the numbers break down on an innings pitched basis
I ran some quick numbers but didn't post them last time, and I have to run now.
Gibson isn't that high in the HBP/IP list, either.
Jamie Wright is probably the king.
Here is the top 200 in HBP since 1950.
I included IP, games, games started, walks, ERA+, batters faced, and wild pitches.
Maybe someone can correlate skill (ERA+) or wildness (wild pitches).
Or just HBP/IP or HBP/batters faced.
posted by grum@work at 12:05 PM on May 24, 2012
It looks like a number of former Red Sox lead in batters hit per innings pitched. I left the Batters Faced and Wild Pitch columns in there in case anyone has a thought on a different ordering.
posted by yerfatma at 12:45 PM on May 24, 2012
So I'm back.
I took yerfatma's spreadsheet of numbers and ran some filters.
I only kept pitchers that had IP/HBP of 36 innings or less. Basically, I only wanted to count pitchers that hit at least one batter every 4 games. Anything more than that is just not that significant. Steve Carlton was the worst, as he hit one batter about every 98 innings pitched.
That shrinks the pool to 143 pitchers.
I then ditched any pitcher that didn't have at least 3 HBP for every 2 wild pitches. Anything less than that and it may be a case of wildness more than deliberate intimidation. Nolan Ryan (even though he comes across as a hard-ass) was the worst remaining pitcher as he had 75% more wild pitches than HBP (277 WP vs 158 HBP).
That shrinks the pool to 65 pitchers.
I then ditched any pitcher that didn't have at least 1600 innings. It's arbitrary, but gets rid of small sample size guys and relievers, and is pretty much 10 seasons of starting pitching. The smallest remaining sample size intimidator would be Rolando Arrojo (700 IP, but great IP/WP [10.45] and HBP/WP [5.15] numbers). Both of his other numbers would be in the top 3 for each, but that's too few innings to really compare to someone who has more than 3 times the innings.
That brings the pool of pitchers to 39, sorted by HBP.
Pitcher HBP Randy Johnson 190 Jim Bunning 160 Don Drysdale 154 Jamey Wright 145 Jamie Moyer 145 Pedro Martinez 141 Chan Ho Park 138 Dave Stieb 129 Kenny Rogers 127 Jeff Weaver 124 Al Leiter 117 Aaron Sele 112 Pedro Astacio 111 Scott Erickson 103 Frank Lary 97 Randy Wolf 97 Carlos Zambrano 95 Darren Oliver 91 John Burkett 90 Bronson Arroyo 89 Barry Zito 89 Carl Pavano 84 Chris Carpenter 83 Jason Marquis 82 Roy Oswalt 76 CC Sabathia 76 Esteban Loaiza 75 Matt Morris 74 Bob Purkey 71 Joe Nuxhall 70 Pedro Ramos 68 Ramon Martinez 66 Mark Gardner 65 Jarrod Washburn 65 Paul Byrd 62 Gerry Staley 59 Ken Johnson 56 Jake Peavy 55 Dick Drago 54
posted by grum@work at 01:44 PM on May 24, 2012
Looking at that list, they seem to fall into a few groups. The two that stand out to me are:
1. The Drysdales: hard-throwers with a reputation for intimidating. I'd put Randy Johnson, Pedro, etc. in there.
2. The Zitos: guys like Zito and Aaron Sele who weren't hard throwers but had a some success with a big breaking ball (or just plain slop), encouraging hitters to lean into a soft toss to "steal" a base.
And there's probably a "Head Case" group, guys who weren't mean, but would get a hair across their ass once in a while and intentionally hit someone. Make Bronson Arroyo captain of this group.
Scott Erickson is the #2 comp for Sele, but if I remember correctly, Ol' Black Socks was something of a head case, wasn't he?
posted by yerfatma at 03:07 PM on May 24, 2012
I think I speak for everyone here when I say if this doesn't end in you being hit with a Mike Greenwell-esque lifetime ban from Florida Little League baseball, we're going to be disappointed.
On Edit: Sry run-on (and on and on) sentences below.
Agree wholeheartedly, having been thrown out of, well let's just say more than one Little League Baseball game when my boys played. WheelChair and all. Fans on the other side often had a look of disbelief in their eyes and I could never tell if that look was because they couldn't believe the ump threw out the paraplegic or they couldn't believe a paraplegic could be so vile.
posted by Folkways at 04:29 PM on May 24, 2012
Fans on the other side often had a look of disbelief in their eyes and I could never tell if that look was because they couldn't believe the ump threw out the paraplegic or they couldn't believe a paraplegic could be so vile.
You sure the disbelief wasn't because of the crossbow?
posted by holden at 06:37 PM on May 24, 2012
You sure the disbelief wasn't because of the crossbow?
Thought never crossed my mind. I mean dont everyone in a chair carry a crossbow?
posted by Folkways at 08:33 PM on May 24, 2012
And you think Tampa Bay has bad attendance some times...
(from Baseball Think Factory)