11/17/24
May 26, 2011
Posey Hurt in Brutal Home-Plate Collision: San Francisco Giants catcher Buster Posey, the reigning National League rookie of the year, suffered an ankle injury in a brutal home plate collision during Wednesday's game. Scott Cousins of the Florida Marlins tagged at third on a short fly ball and rammed Posey shoulder-first as the throw came in, scoring the go-ahead run in a 7-6 Marlins win. See the video.
On Mike and Mike in the morning they made the interesting point that a rule change should be considered to avoid this in the future. Or another way to look at it is why should an important player on your team, the catcher even be putting himself in the position to be injured like that, for what, a chance to stop one run, in one game (in May no less), within a season of 186 games? The reward of a 50% chance of stopping a single run in that context is not worth the risk of loosing your catcher for the season. A smarter coaching move may be to just have the catcher try to make the tag without blocking the plate and risking the injury.
posted by Atheist at 11:25 AM on May 26, 2011
it would be interesting to see players at different infield positions get obliterated like Posey did, whether it be at first, second, or third.
They already do something like this, and it's called "the takeout slide" when they try to break up double plays. It's probably injured more middle-infielders than home plate collisions have injured catchers.
They don't run directly into the fielder, but they slide right into him (usually away from the bag) and try to take out his knees/legs.
For example, Minnesota's second baseman Nishioka was injured by Swisher, or Erick Aybar getting wiped out.
posted by grum@work at 12:05 PM on May 26, 2011
Dan Shulman reporting that Posey has a broken leg and torn ligaments. Ouch.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 12:09 PM on May 26, 2011
If they had to slide into home (feet or head first) it would make a lot of runners think twice before trying to take home. IMHO it would be one of those little changes to baseball that might make the game a bit more enjoyable.
posted by Folkways at 01:33 PM on May 26, 2011
The runner had a clear lane at the plate and Posey was trying to make a tag. He could have gone in with a slide but decided to take Posey out. Posey was not well positioned to take contact, with his left foot under his leg. That's an unfortunate play and it didn't need to happen.
posted by insomnyuk at 01:37 PM on May 26, 2011
They already do something like this, and it's called "the takeout slide" when they try to break up double plays.
I don't consider it the same. It's still a "slide" and doesn't involve a guy running full speed and running a guy over like he's a truck. And a second baseman or shortstop can always choose to get just one out and not feel it's their absolute right to get the two-out double play. Those fielders put themselves in vulnerable positions trying to turn two, in the majority of cases. I'd still like to see if what would happen if fielders at second or first base could get hit like a linebacker crashing into them like Posey did. They could start wearing masks like softball teams do when they're batting or on base, then not have to worry about taking a throw in the chops. Just lay out the infielders. Make the game full contact, just like football (sarcastic).
posted by dyams at 04:35 PM on May 26, 2011
Every base contact is expected to be avoided, but at home plate players are allowed, expected, and encouraged to run a catcher over like they've suddenly turned into football players.
I don't understand the comparison. Maybe I'm missing something. Middle infielders do everything they can to get out of the way of the runner. On double play balls the runner is going to slide or get out of the way or he's going to get nailed with the ball.
A catcher has the choice not to block the plate. If he does, if he physically blocks the path to the plate, they should be run over. That's their choice as much as the runners.
posted by justgary at 09:38 PM on May 26, 2011
If runners have to slide into home, all that rule change would do is to change which player would get injured in this situation. I don't think Cousins took off from third with the intent to barrel into Posey. He only did so after Posey blocked the plate. Maybe a slide doesn't cause an injury, maybe it does. Not much different than the current situation.
I would think the only possible solution is to outlaw blocking the plate, AND require slides.
posted by dviking at 10:14 PM on May 26, 2011
What you're missing about why this happens at home and not at the other three bases is that the runner does not have to stay on that base after contact. At second or third if the runner took out the fielder in this manner he probably would not be able to stay on the bag and be tagged out (more times than not) even after dislodging the ball. At home the runner only has to touch the plate not maintain position on it.
in one game (in May no less), within a season of 186 games?
Umm, last time I checked they play 162 games in a season/lol.
posted by jagsnumberone at 01:18 AM on May 27, 2011
I don't understand the comparison. Maybe I'm missing something. Middle infielders do everything they can to get out of the way of the runner. On double play balls the runner is going to slide or get out of the way or he's going to get nailed with the ball.
Middle infielders have the choice to only take one out and not try and turn two. I understand why people have a hard time understanding what I'm saying, but it involves thinking outside the box a bit and away from all the usual, accepted practices of baseball. If a middle infielder is concerned about a take-out slide, they can protect themselves, in many instances, and just get the out at second. It's when they come across the base or go airborne they generally leave themselves vulnerable to potential injury. Granted, a catcher could also make the choice to get out of the way, but a young star like Posey getting that badly hurt? It definitely requires looking into possible changes.
posted by dyams at 09:06 AM on May 27, 2011
dyams, is your point that is was a young star that was injured, thus a need for a rule change? Probably, not, but it sounds like it as clearly in every collision situation in every sport the athletes had the choice to avoid a collision. If the situation warrants it, athletes are going to put their bodies in harm's way to make the play. Sometimes the 2nd baseman decides the 2nd out isn't worth it and jumps out of the way of the slide, other times they "take one for the team". If an athlete knew ahead of time which incident of blocking the plate, or taking the slide, would result in injury, they'd just avoid those situation, but of course, they don't so they take chances and sometimes get injured.
posted by dviking at 10:30 AM on May 27, 2011
I just think it would be interesting to see what baseball would do if a player bowled over a shortstop in the manner Cousins did to Posey in this instance. Just run right through, full speed, lower his shoulder, and send him flying into the outfield grass.
No, my point isn't with the fact a young star was badly injured, although that is, obviously, unfortunate.
posted by dyams at 10:43 AM on May 27, 2011
Question: Would this even be an issue if it this didn't happen to Buster Posey?
Remember that Pete Rose trucked Ray Fosse in the 1970 MLB All Star game which indirectly started Fosse's decline as a player. Where was the outcry then?
posted by BornIcon at 10:43 AM on May 27, 2011
I thought obstruction was against the rules. Start calling obstruction on catchers, mission accomplished.
posted by rocketman at 11:00 AM on May 27, 2011
Remember that Pete Rose trucked Ray Fosse in the 1970 MLB All Star game which indirectly started Fosse's decline as a player. Where was the outcry then?
The difference then was that Fosse was standing two feet up the line and directly in the path of the oncoming base runner. There was no way for Rose to get around Fosse at normal speed. Either he runs over Fosse, or he has to slow down and run around him.
In Posey's case, he was standing in front of home plate, and the runner had an opportunity to run/slide past Posey and touch home plate. Granted, if Posey catches the ball cleanly, he's going to turn and block the plate or apply a swipe tag.
Players have been running over catchers for a while, but it took prominence in the 1980s when Mike Scioscia took pride in blocking the plate. Heck, he would often camp two feet up the line, interfere with the runner coming home (police would call it "molesting") and THEN catch the ball and tag him out. That's why "crush the catcher" became a common response from the runners.
posted by grum@work at 11:43 AM on May 27, 2011
Where was the outcry then?
That was 41 years ago. Were you even born then? I was 3 and had not yet developed my sense of outrage.
posted by rcade at 01:23 PM on May 27, 2011
That was 41 years ago. Were you even born then?
No I wasn't but why is that even a factor? Would you consider Babe Ruth to be one of the greatest baseball players to ever play the game? If so, have you ever see him play?
The point I'm trying to make is that if it wasn't Buster Posey that got hurt but let's say the cather for the Tampa Bay Rays Dioner Navarro, I can take a wild guess that we wouldn't be hearing anything about this.
posted by BornIcon at 01:52 PM on May 27, 2011
but it involves thinking outside the box a bit and away from all the usual, accepted practices of baseball
They just don't seem comparable to me, apples an oranges.
The runner attempting to run over the catcher is trying to get to home while hopefully dislodging the ball. There's nothing on the base paths to compare to this. I guess you can chalk it up to baseball practices, but the situations are mostly different as well.
On a double play ball usually the fielder gets out of the way. The runner slides in order not to get hit by the ball, and also because the fielder usually a foot or two away from the bag. So yes, accepted baseball. But the fielder is also not blocking the base.
A runner tries to steal second. The runner slides instead of running the fielder over. Accepted baseball, but the fielder also never tries to block the bag. A different situation. If fielders started blocking the bag, runners would start running them over.
So to change this catchers can't be allowed to block the plate, which will then give runners less reason, as on the base paths, to run the catcher over.
I remember a few years ago Coco Crisp stole a base against the Rays, and the fielder went down on one knee in front of second, blocking the plate. The next base Crisp stole he came in with cleats up. He claimed it was because the fielder had previously tried to block second, which could cause an injury to a runner coming in head first.
About the only time I can think of a similar base path play to a home collision is during a rundown. A few years ago Mike Lowell was in a rundown against the Yankees. He eventually ran out of room but instead of just allowing Cano to tag him he actually pushed Cano pretty hard. Cano was upset about it, but when asked Lowell said he was taught that by the Yankees. So that's a case of a fielder with the ball standing in the base path between the runner and the base, similar to a catcher standing between a runner and home, and Lowell saw it no different than a play at the plate.
What you're missing about why this happens at home and not at the other three bases is that the runner does not have to stay on that base after contact.
I disagree. Again, fielders don't block the base, so there's no need to run over the fielder. IF they did, it wouldn't be much different than a play at the plate. If the ball is dislodged, they just stay at the base.
The point I'm trying to make is that if it wasn't Buster Posey that got hurt but let's say the cather for the Tampa Bay Rays Dioner Navarro, I can take a wild guess that we wouldn't be hearing anything about this.
Sure we would. Any collision at home where a catcher breaks a leg is going to be covered. As far as Fosse all the controversy was regarding whether Rose should have play so aggressively in an all-star game.
The difference then was that Fosse was standing two feet up the line and directly in the path of the oncoming base runner.
I was going to disagree. I don't think it matters if a catcher is 2 feet up the line or standing an inch in front of the plate. He's still in the way. But looking at the play again Posey really wasn't blocking the plate. If he fielding the ball cleanly maybe he turns and tries to block the plate. But it looks more like he was going for the tag. It also looks like the runner had a path the the plate, but for whatever reason decided his best chance was to run Posey over. I guess he assumed he was GOING to be blocked from the plate, but looking at the video that seems a pretty big assumption.
Perhaps a runner could only run over a catcher if the catcher is in his path to home. If he's not, as it looks here, the runner would be called out (as in this case). Of course, that's a tough call for the ump.
posted by justgary at 02:23 PM on May 27, 2011
bug report: Play button is not working
posted by yerfatma at 02:33 PM on May 27, 2011
That freeze frame is telling.
I watched the video a handful of times, but it seemed to me that Posey was set a little awkward, Cousins charged *assuming* Posey would block the plate, and when Posey spun to apply the tag (sadly he did not have the ball), his arms/shoulder caught the sprinting Cousins, and it twisted the hell out of his ankle.
Seeing that isolated moment seems to indicate Cousins made the decision to lower the shoulder and make aggressive contact.
But I still think catchers shouldn't block the plate.
posted by rocketman at 02:33 PM on May 27, 2011
ESPN:
Berry, in a statement issued Thursday after he'd contacted MLB and the players' union, said Posey was in front of home plate and never blocked the plate, while Cousins, who had room to slide, lowered his shoulder as he approached home.
"At [the] point of impact, all of Buster's body is still two feet in front of the plate leaving all of the plate exposed for the runner," Berry said.
Cousins:
I felt like he was blocking the dish. It's the go-ahead run to win the game, I got to do whatever I can to score...
posted by justgary at 02:49 PM on May 27, 2011
What I hate about this play is that Cousins wasn't attempting to touch home when he hit Posey. His strategy was to bowl over the catcher and then touch the plate safely over Posey's twitching corpse.
The rules need to be changed so that a runner can't slam first and slide later. All of his movements preceding the collision should be an attempt to reach the base.
In Cousins defense, the reason for these hardcore collisions is because catchers often completely block the plate. A player who slid towards the base with a catcher camped out well could injure himself. So there should be a rule to keep catchers from parking themselves up the line so that a runner has no path to home.
When a runner breaks up a double play by veering too far out of the basepath at second, an umpire can call interference and declare the runner at first out. A similar principle could apply here that dictates where the runner and catcher can be before a home plate crash.
posted by rcade at 02:52 PM on May 27, 2011
I thought obstruction was against the rules. Start calling obstruction on catchers, mission accomplished.
The obstruction rule allows for a fielder to set his position in anticipation of catching a ball. A fielder in the act of making a play does not obstruct. What catchers (and other position players) often do is to set up before the throw is made, maintain their position, and force the runner to avoid. This is obstruction, but most umpires will not call it if it is at all close. Perhaps they should consider safety.
posted by Howard_T at 04:01 PM on May 27, 2011
When a runner breaks up a double play by veering too far out of the basepath at second, an umpire can call interference and declare the runner at first out. A similar principle could apply here that dictates where the runner and catcher can be before a home plate crash.
While I agree with your overall point, reality is that the umpires rarely call interference (they sure didn't when Nishioka had his leg broken). And, looking at this video, Cousins never veered out of the base path, his last steps were right on the line, and his shoulder was on a path to hit home plate. As Howard pointed out, the catchers are often guilty of obstruction via how they set up for a throw, but it's never called. I don't recall one case of a catcher being called for obstruction for blocking the plate before he caught the ball...I could be wrong.
If the league is serious about changing this to improve safety, it would have to be more consistent about calling interference. Not sure I can see that happening anytime soon.
posted by dviking at 05:01 PM on May 27, 2011
his shoulder was on a path to hit home plate.
I don't see that at all. Look at the freeze frame. His shoulders are not going in the direction of home plate. His last lunge is not going toward the plate.
If you draw a line from the chalk to home plate the only thing still in the base path going towards home are his feet. It's not really even that close.
posted by justgary at 06:18 PM on May 27, 2011
I think both sides have decent cases. In many ways, a baseball play we've seen before which also features a very prominent player. I'm not sure we're 40 comments deep if it's Miguel Olivo.
It's also pretty amazing that his injury was a broken ankle, which is a bit fluky to me considering it looked more like it should have been a crushed sternum.
However, Posey is totally unprotected there. He has no time to change position and the player clearly is going the "hit catcher instead of sliding" route. He's helpless. That needs to be examined a bit.
I recall playing and totally doing this to a catcher. I rounded third very much cognoscente that the throw was going to beat me and I was going to hit the catcher. So I hit him hard and sher-nuff the ball popped loose. Scored the go ahead run and we ended up winning the game.
And that catcher grew up to be... Silver screen star Ryan Reynolds!
... And now you know the wrest of the story.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 06:23 PM on May 27, 2011
I don't see that at all. Look at the freeze frame. His shoulders are not going in the direction of home plate. His last lunge is not going toward the plate
That freeze frame distorts things as his body has now twisted from the impact with Posey. And, it's taken from a vantage point behind the plate, so you don't get the correct angle. If you watch the video Cousins is clearly running straight down the line, and then veers only slightly as he hits Posey. The 3rd base line hits the corner of the plate, so the front edge of the plate goes off to the 1st base side. Cousin's back rolls over the plate after the collision, so they couldn't have been on much of a veer away from the plate. Could have Cousins tried to avoid a collision by trying to go for the back of the plate, sure, but he had every reason to believe that Posey would catch that ball and move into position to block him.
BTW, the chalk line his feet make curves away from the 3rd base line toward the back of the plate...pretty hard to do if you're truly lunging away from the plate.
posted by dviking at 12:00 AM on May 28, 2011
I'm not sure we're 40 comments deep if it's Miguel Olivo.
After having replaced Buster with Olivo on my fantasy roster, I I agree.
If you watch the video Cousins is clearly running straight down the line, and then veers only slightly as he hits Posey.
The veer is completely unnecessary, given that Posey isn't even at the plate, and is made worse by the fact he sends his shoulder in first. Posey's lucky he didn't take his head off.
He leads with his shoulder, which is why his ass falls onto the plate. If you measure his torso, I reckon it's about 3 feet, which is obviously in "I'm trying to knock the ball out by knocking you out" territory. He wasn't even aiming for the plate.
posted by dfleming at 09:54 AM on May 28, 2011
In this case, Quintero was definitely blocking the plate with his leg/body, and he didn't have the ball when the collision happened.
If the runner tried to slide, he'd be impeded, and probably injured.
posted by grum@work at 11:09 AM on May 28, 2011
That runner had no choice but to run over the catcher and his movements seemed more like an attempt to reach the plate than Cousins'. The Quintero collision shows how much of this is about catcher positioning.
It's quite a coincidence that two catchers get hurt that way in the same week.
posted by rcade at 12:36 PM on May 28, 2011
The veer is completely unnecessary
No, the veer is necessary if he is trying to take Posey out, which he was. I'm not defending his decision, just saying that even with the veer, he is still heading toward the plate.
Even after twisting once he hits Posey, most of Cousins' body then continues over the plate. The whole discussion is whether, or not, he could be called for interference. Since he clearly is still in line with the base, no umpire is going to call him out for interference. His right shoulder is clearly in line with the plate prior to his hitting Posey, which is probably far more than is needed to avoid an interference call. The discussion is not about whether he needed to hit Posey.
posted by dviking at 05:00 PM on May 29, 2011
I'm not defending his decision, just saying that even with the veer, he is still heading toward the plate.
Well, you're right about that. He didn't take a left turn towards 1st. He's headed in the general direction of home, though less towards the plate and more towards Posey.
Even after twisting once he hits Posey, most of Cousins' body then continues over the plate.
This makes me wonder if you've actually watched the video closely. Even after? The twist is the REASON he ends up at home. Take away the twist and he's to the left of home.
The whole discussion is whether, or not, he could be called for interference.
That's not remotely the discussion. 99 percent of all discussion I've read concedes that what Posey did was legal and would never be called for interference. That's a given. No discussion needed.
The discussion is if a rule change needs to be made to protect the catcher.
Posey did not have the plate blocked. I think the runner thought Posey would block the plate once he had control of the ball, but that never happened. So I don't think the runner was trying to hurt Posey, he just assumed wrong.
If there was a rule that said a runner could not ram a catcher unless the plate was blocked, Posey very well could have been called out. Because the plate was not blocked.
Not saying if that would be a good rule or not, but that's where the discussion is. Because it's clear from the video, that before Posey ever had the ball, before he ever turned towards home, the runner objective from 10 feet out was not to touch home, but to run over Posey, and then touch home.
posted by justgary at 11:39 PM on June 01, 2011
This makes me wonder if you've actually watched the video closely. Even after? The twist is the REASON he ends up at home. Take away the twist and he's to the left of home.
nah, his right shoulder still goes right over the first base corner of the plate.
That's not remotely the discussion
Well, yes, it is a big part of the discussion as if what he did was illegal under current rules then no new rule is needed, just need to enforce what we have. If, however, as I've pointed out, he was within the current rules, then a change is needed. Cousins' base running is very much what the discussion was about.
I think his objective was to run over Posey AND touch home, which he did with his knee. He only goes back to touch the plate to make sure. That's a pretty common action with a lot of slides into home, just making sure when the ball is loose.
posted by dviking at 02:22 PM on June 03, 2011
Another one of those little baseball things that are part of the game, but in reality, makes little sense. Every base contact is expected to be avoided, but at home plate players are allowed, expected, and encouraged to run a catcher over like they've suddenly turned into football players. I know, I know, catchers block the plate, come up the line (not in this case), wear equipment, blah, blah, blah, but it would be interesting to see players at different infield positions get obliterated like Posey did, whether it be at first, second, or third. Why not have a runner who may be tagged out stealing second go into the second baseman or shortstop in that manner in an attempt to dislodge the ball?
Again, I understand and accept it's part of the game, but it actually makes little sense.