04/19/24
April 08, 2010
Spectator with Front-Row Seats to All Three Red Sox/ Yanks Games Complains About Game Length: ESPN sees it as a sign of things to come, Charlie Pierce disagrees slightly.
Nuts to that. Let him go lay down some more country wax if he doesn't like baseball. I'm all for keeping players in the box and making pitchers pitch, but Sox/ Yanks games don't last 4 hours because people keep stepping out of the box. There are an extremely high number of pitches thrown. Besides which, last night's game flew by, relatively speaking, due to Jon Lackey/ Andy Pettitte and the fact neither team scored much.
posted by yerfatma at 09:10 PM on April 08, 2010
The umpires need to shut the hell up, stay out of the pace-of-game crap, and do their damn job. If major league baseball as a whole wants to limit the number of times catchers go to the mound in an inning or how many times a batter can step out, etc., then do it. It's like Mariano Rivera said about West, "It's incredible. If he has places to go, let him do something else. What does he want us to do, swing at balls?" Or as Papelbon said, "If you don't want to be there, don't be there. Go home. Why are you complaining. I'm not going to sit somewhere I don't want to be. If you go to a movie or any entertainment event and you like it, you're going to stay and watch and you're not going to want it to end. If you don't, then you won't. Why is it such a big deal?" The Yankees-Red Sox games, the best rivalry in the sport, are a stupid place for the umpires to pick to start putting their foot down on this issue.
posted by dyams at 09:21 PM on April 08, 2010
Joe West has some nerve to use the word pathetic. Between him and Angel Hernandez I'm not sure who the worst umpire is.
posted by justgary at 09:39 PM on April 08, 2010
Perhaps if the umpires did a better job of enforcing the rules regarding time between pitches they could shorten game length. It would also help keep me from taking a nap every time Rafael Betancourt enters the game.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 10:25 PM on April 08, 2010
I don't follow baseball much, but I'm curious: Is MLB as anal about fining players & coaches for criticizing the umps as NFL & NBA are about criticizing their refs?
posted by jmd82 at 10:27 PM on April 08, 2010
stay out of the pace-of-game crap, and do their damn job.
Their job includes "pace-of-game crap". It's right in the rules. The umpires enforce the rules.
Watching batter after batter step out of the box after every fucking pitch is annoying. Watching pitchers spend 25 second deciding on what next pitch to throw is annoying.
For fun, watch a game from the 1970s (or even 1980s). You won't see half as many batters step out of the box to wander around and contemplate the next pitch. On every damn pitch.
posted by grum@work at 11:36 PM on April 08, 2010
The Yankees-Red Sox games, the best rivalry in the sport, are a stupid place for the umpires to pick to start putting their foot down on this issue.
No, it's the perfect place to put their foot down. It lets the rest of the teams know that they mean business. If they enforced it on a Pirates/Reds Wednesday afternoon game in July, it wouldn't mean anything because nobody would be watching (or, caring).
But if you make your statement about the two most popular/famous teams in baseball, right at the start of the season, you can start to set a precedent for the rest of the league, for the rest of the season.
posted by grum@work at 11:37 PM on April 08, 2010
it wouldn't mean anything because nobody would be watching (or, caring).
Not nobody. I see your point, and it's mostly valid, but your parenthetical is a wee bit dismissive. We can't all cheer for the frontrunners.
posted by tahoemoj at 11:46 PM on April 08, 2010
[Reds/Pirates on a Wednesday afternoon in the middle of the summer] it wouldn't mean anything because nobody would be watching (or, caring).
Not nobody. I see your point, and it's mostly valid, but your parenthetical is a wee bit dismissive. We can't all cheer for the frontrunners.
Pirates vs Reds
Wednesday, September 2nd 2009, starting at 12:30pm
Attendance: 11,541
(The games on Monday and Tuesday had even LESS people attending.)
I stand by my point.
posted by grum@work at 12:02 AM on April 09, 2010
I totally agree with Joe West. Pick up the pace, you buncha skirt wearing poodle walkers!
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 12:05 AM on April 09, 2010
One, the ump's are only doing their job in enforcing what the league has set as rules.
Two, the Yankees and Red Sox are two of the slowest teams, so why not set the tone with them? It wouldn't make any sense to pick on teams that are normally faster.
Three, the umps were out of line to comment on it publicly. They made their point during the game, why air it all?
I don't want prima donna umpires, but I do hope they enforce the time limits.
posted by dviking at 12:51 AM on April 09, 2010
Anyone else hear Mariano Rivera and Curt Schilling's responses to this? Someone might need to deliver Joe West some burn ointment after those.
posted by boredom_08 at 12:53 AM on April 09, 2010
Their job includes "pace-of-game crap". It's right in the rules. The umpires enforce the rules.
Then do it. I'm not sure what using the words 'pathetic and embarrassing' or speaking about it at all does. Enforcing the rules will speed up the game. Yakking his mouth will not.
And it's kind of funny that anything said against the umpires gets a fine, but this is allowed.
If Angel Hernandez could learn the strike zone while he's enforcing the rule book that'd be great. I guess it takes the attention away from his incompetence.
I wish the games were 5 hours long. In fact, I wish the yankees and red sox were playing right now. I love me some baseball.
posted by justgary at 01:02 AM on April 09, 2010
I'm all for keeping players in the box and making pitchers pitch, but Sox/ Yanks games don't last 4 hours because people keep stepping out of the box. There are an extremely high number of pitches thrown.
It's not the extremely high number of pitches being thrown. It's the extremely ridiculous amount of bullshit going on between pitches.
Rivera and Papelbon can go suck it. Part of the umpire's job is to keep the game moving, and these prima donna bastards think they're there to primp and preen both on the mound and outside the batter's box.
They're not, and this game was the perfect place to make an important statement to both these teams and the remainder of the league -- "You don't control the game, I do. Now get your ass back in the box or on the mound."
Grum, check my math (some figures taken from this Baseball Prospectus article):
5 minutes per inning (2:30 per half) x 8.5 innings = 42.5 minutes
20 seconds average per pitch x 285 pitches = 95 minutes
3 minutes average per team for pitching changes x 6 changes = 18 minutes
10 for various injuries = 10 minutes
5 minutes for one minor brouhaha = 5 minutes
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total elapsed time: 2 hours, 50.5 minutes
Given that the between-inning stuff could be :30 shorter, that many pitchers work in 15-20 seconds (hiya, Mark Buerhle!) and there's not an injury or a donnybrook in every game, you have to wonder -- what's so goddamned hard about following that schedule?
posted by wfrazerjr at 01:03 AM on April 09, 2010
Their job includes "pace-of-game crap". It's right in the rules. The umpires enforce the rules.
Then do it.
They did.
From the article:
West would not allow Hernandez to comment. Hernandez denied at least three timeouts Tuesday night called by Derek Jeter, Marcus Thames and Boston's David Ortiz.
posted by grum@work at 01:17 AM on April 09, 2010
They did.
Exactly. So why the need to insult the teams? And why is this allowed when no one can insult the umpires?
And which is worse for baseball, long games or terrible umpiring? Because Angel Hernandez is god-awful. So if we're going to improve the game, let's really do it and not only speed it up but get more calls correct.
posted by justgary at 01:24 AM on April 09, 2010
Just to recap, I have nothing against the umpires enforcing the rules. I have no idea what they hope to gain by insulting the teams after the fact except starting a war of words and drawing attention to themselves.
Rivera a prima donna? Please. Hello Joe West.
posted by justgary at 01:41 AM on April 09, 2010
Their job includes "pace-of-game crap". It's right in the rules. The umpires enforce the rules.
Then why is this an issue? If it's a rule, and their job is to enforce the rules, why has the issue gotten to this point? Did they just choose to ignore the rules? The umpires are the ones who allowed the rule to get out of hand, and now they have the nerve to start bashing the players? Joe West sounds as if he's burned out and needs to take a leave. As for the state of umpiring in general, it's pathetic. As mentioned above, the umpires are also responsible for the length of games running long. Terrible strike zones, missed calls prolonging innings, etc. I just don't understand the rationale of letting a particular rule or issue go for so long and then deciding they're going to take a stand. If it's this huge a problem, it shouldn't have been allowed to get to the point it's at now. And I'm with justgary, who said he could basically care less how long the Yankees/Red Sox games go. It's great baseball. Sort of like the Buffalo Wild Wings commercial where the people watching the game say, "I don't want this game to end. Is there any way you can keep it going?"
As for the comments the umpires are making, there's no excuse for that at all. They need to be reprimanded by major league baseball.
posted by dyams at 07:08 AM on April 09, 2010
And which is worse for baseball, long games or terrible umpiring?
Two completely unrelated concepts that shouldn't be played against one another, but wouldn't umpires ignoring the rules and letting games drag on be, by definition, "terrible umpiring?"
As for the comments the umpires are making, there's no excuse for that at all.
Of course there is -- they're human. I'm guessing they're getting pretty frustrated with the pressure they're receiving from the muckity-mucks to speed up the game while no one at that level is threatening serious repercussions to the players if they don't actually, you know ... speed up.
If you've denied players timeouts, told managers and players before games to pick up the pace and you're still ignored? Maybe Joe West (who did the honourable thing as crew chief and made the statement instead of Hernandez) decided enough was enough and he'll take the heat for putting the onus where it belongs -- on the wandering, chicken-winging, crotch-scratching players -- before he really starts hammering the enforceable penalties.
If you want to argue the state of umpiring itself, these guys do a pretty damned good job night in and night out. I'd guess a plate umpire misses 3-5 calls a game out of 250-300 split-second decisions in an extremely high-pressure, high-profile position. You have that good of a record at your desk job?
As a former umpire, do I wish these guys would loosen the zone a bit? Sure I do, because I hate walks and I hate slow games. But until the league ditches:
"The Strike Zone is that area over home plate the upper limit of which is a horizontal line at the midpoint between the top of the shoulders and the top of the uniform pants, and the lower level is a line at the bottom of the knees. The Strike Zone shall be determined from the batter's stance as the batter is prepared to swing at a pitched ball."
and goes to:
"From the letters to the knees -- now start swinging the fucking bat!"
The zone's going to be tight, and players are going to take. They'd be stupid not to, right?
posted by wfrazerjr at 08:52 AM on April 09, 2010
Enforcing the rules will speed up the game. Yakking his mouth will not.
That's my take on this as well. West and the other umpires have the ability to speed up games by enforcing the rules. They should do this instead of bellyaching to the press.
posted by rcade at 09:08 AM on April 09, 2010
It's not the extremely high number of pitches being thrown. It's the extremely ridiculous amount of bullshit going on between pitches.
I can't accept it has nothing to do with the fact the Yankees & Sox tend to work counts. All teams have batters that step out of the box when they shouldn't. All teams have pitches who take 10 minutes between pitches with men on base. I'll accept grum's point that making a big deal of things during the Sox/ Yankees gets more attention, but I refuse to accept Joe West's comments as being productive. They're counter-productive: as I said, I'm all for speeding games up, so I was excited to see Angel Hernandez refuse to call time outs. Here's what the article doesn't mention: in at least two of the cases, the time out still happened because the catcher saw the batter step out and held the ball, either out of confusion or out of sympathy with the batter. So if the umps are going to make this work, they need the players to cooperate.
I know you probably didn't mean the absolutism of "not the extremely high number of pitches being thrown", but I feel obligated to point out the 2009 Yankees and Sox were #1 and #3 in walks and #1 and #5 in plate appearances. And it looks like the Red Sox lineup keeps getting more patient by the year.
posted by yerfatma at 10:06 AM on April 09, 2010
posted by grum@work at 12:53 PM on April 09, 2010
I understand the frustration of the umpires. They are evaluated on the pace of the game, but have to rely on the players to speed things up. Umps don't have that much authority to speed the pace. Also, seriously, speed up. Why do they have to have such long rituals (see grum's link) before every freakin' pitch?
posted by bperk at 01:57 PM on April 09, 2010
Front row tickets to 3 Red Sox / Yankees games and complaining about it?
I do think they need to do something to get the game moving - the clip of Jeter doing his best diva strut is a good example of what needs to be eliminated. Yes, sometimes a batter or pitcher needs a few seconds to regroup .... 30 seconds on every pitch is ridiculous.
Other sports enforce time limitations, why not baseball.
posted by cixelsyd at 02:25 PM on April 09, 2010
The solution to the problem is obvious:
1. Institute the NCAA rule concerning when a batter may step out of the batter's box.
2. Instruct major league umpires to slightly expand their strike zone.
3. Rate umpires periodically and frequently during the season and send the poorest performers down at least one level for remedial work.
Joe West calls the Sox - Yankees series "an embarrassment to baseball". I believe that was mainly due to an umpiring crew that included both the aforementioned Mr. West and his cohort, Mr. Angel "It sounded like a strike, but I never saw it" Hernandez.
posted by Howard_T at 04:11 PM on April 09, 2010
Two completely unrelated concepts that shouldn't be played against one another, but wouldn't umpires ignoring the rules and letting games drag on be, by definition, "terrible umpiring?"
Oh, I admit they're unrelated. I'm simply find it frustrating that two of the worst umpires in the game are being such loud mouths about it.
But in my mind, no, allowing the game to go long isn't even in the same ballpark as missing a call.
And if they're interested in sitting on their ass earlier shortening the game they could start by calling the strike zone that's in the rule book.
Now that's embarrassing.
posted by justgary at 06:40 PM on April 09, 2010
Linked from your link, team-by-team rankings of pitcher quickness (2008). Maybe it's not the batters that are the problem? Then again, it'd be nice to have those numbers adjusted for number of total baserunners.
posted by yerfatma at 06:51 PM on April 09, 2010
Part of the umpire's job is to keep the game moving, and these prima donna bastards think they're there to primp and preen both on the mound and outside the batter's box.
Yeah. I just want to reach through the TV and beat em around the head until they bleed. Just kills the game for me.
posted by irunfromclones at 09:18 PM on April 09, 2010
Yankees and Red Sox comment on Joe West
Plus, from the same link:
Ump (West) slowed down Yankees-Red Sox himself
posted by justgary at 01:33 PM on April 10, 2010
Charlie Pierce disagrees slightly.
Charlie Pierce is really not a ranter, either, which to me gives his opinion some weight. If Charlie Pierce thinks someone's being a dumbass, that someone is probably being a dumbass.
I can't accept it has nothing to do with the fact the Yankees & Sox tend to work counts.
That. Show me that other teams with significantly shorter average game times are working the counts to the same degree; then I might see this as something other than pointless whining.
posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:00 PM on April 10, 2010
Well, Pierce's blog is nothing but rants. And I love him for it, though if your politics aren't the same, YMMV. The comments on the blog are priceless because most of them are from typical knuckle-dragging sports "fans" on newspaper blogs who don't get anything he's writing about.
posted by yerfatma at 03:48 PM on April 11, 2010
You do not want to mess with Joe West. With his history of ejections, keep trying this with him behind the plate and he'll start tossing players.