11/21/24
November 10, 2009
German MNT keeper Enke in apparent suicide: Robert Enke was 29 and expected to be Germany's netminder next summer in South Africa after replacing Jens Lehman last year. He leaves behind a wife and an eight month old daughter. Enke battled depression for six years and lived in fear that this fact would come out and he'd lose custody of his daughter, his wife Teresa told BBC Sport.
posted by billsaysthis to soccer at 05:20 PM - 31 comments
netminder?
GOALKEEPER!
Seems he's another of these selfish "suicide by train" narcissists who insist on ruining multiple lives to end their "pain".
Sorry, but I have no fucking time for them. Those poor drivers having to deal with the fact this prick was too much of a pussy to end his own life. (And I say that as someone who has tried. And I didn't feel the need to drag someone else into the event like this asshole.)
No, no . for you.
I do however give a . to his poor kid who will now grow up fatherless and his wife who is alone now, both due to his selfishness.
posted by Drood at 01:45 AM on November 11, 2009
What the hell??? Cause of his daughter? The article doesn't explain much...
Hey drood...get a fucking grip on yourself.
posted by StarFucker at 02:15 AM on November 11, 2009
I follow that Drood. If it had been an accident, cancer, heart failure, drowned in beer, hey no problem he gets the .
Punching your own ticket? You don't pass Go, you don't collect 200 bucks, and you don't get the .
posted by irunfromclones at 02:47 AM on November 11, 2009
And you, irfc, don't understand depression. And, Drood? What StarFucker said. Grow up.
posted by JJ at 05:34 AM on November 11, 2009
People in the grip of suicidal depression don't value their own life, much less realize how it is valued by their loved ones. They would take anger like what Drood expresses and turn it into another reason why everyone would be better off if they're not around.
It's horrible from the outside to see somebody magnify their own pain to the point that's all they see, even disregarding the nightmare they would leave their kids if they took their own lives.
But in my experience, anger is completely useless when dealing with people in that mental condition.
posted by rcade at 09:04 AM on November 11, 2009
I added a link to a BBC Sport article with more information on Enke's depression.
posted by rcade at 10:45 AM on November 11, 2009
.
Interesting post on Pitch Invasion about depression in sports stars.
And while I can sorta understand Drood's take on the method Enke used to commit suicide, I really don't think that people who haven't suffered from depression can't understand how it makes you think. And the way it messes with any rational thoughts.
posted by Fence at 01:59 PM on November 11, 2009
I had an uncle who suffered from depression for years which led to rampant drug use, alcoholism and physical/mental/emotional abuse to his wife. He was a Vietnam veteran and a former minor league prospect for the New York Mets before he was drafted in the war. My uncle tried to take his own life on two seperate occasions with the second attempt being the most profound due to what he saw in the war.
He finally sought out professional help largely due to his eldest son telling him that he was going to become a grandfather. Suffice to say, my uncle stopped drinking, stopped using drug and unfortunately, divorced his high school sweetheart and mother of his 2 children because she understandably had enough of his abuse. My uncle passed away in 1998 from cancer but this story right here hits home for me.
Drood, you apparently don't know what it's like to live with someone that suffers from depression and doesn't value their lives like we may. There are some where positive words of encouragement and love can break them out of that depression but sometimes if that person doesn't seek professional help, they may be a lost cause and will leave alot of people grieving.
.
posted by BornIcon at 02:39 PM on November 11, 2009
I have an excellent understanding of depression from personal experience as a result of certain life and military experiences. And while I never actually attempted suicide, it was close enough for a smart, perceptive family doctor who listened to bring in a therapist who put me on prozac for 18 months.
When I sat there seriously considering ending my own life and the best way to do it, I thought of my wife and children, and how sad and traumatized they would be whichever way I did it. And I stepped back from the edge that day and damn glad I did.
I once heard someone say that suicide is the biggest "fuck you" to your family and friends. I agree.
posted by irunfromclones at 04:30 PM on November 11, 2009
This is a sad one.
Drood, a bit of "sensitivity training" for you might be in order here. You seem to think a little bit like the Japanese Prosecutor in Iwakuni, Yamaguchi Prefecture, did a few years ago. The wife of a Marine Corps aviator stationed at the Marine Corps Air Station in Iwakuni committed suicide by parking her car in front of a limited express on the Sanyo main line. The law in Japan says that if you cause an express train to be delayed, you are liable for the fare surcharge refund to all of the passengers. It amounted to several thousand dollars. The status of forces agreement with Japan says that a sponsor (in this case the Marine aviator) is responsible for all acts by his dependents. The prosecutor began to institute proceedings to collect from the grief-stricken Marine. The good news was that one of the Japanese security liaison personnel, a man with far more compassion than the prosecutor had, got wind of the scheme and warned the base commander. The Marine was immediately ordered back to the 'States.
posted by Howard_T at 05:11 PM on November 11, 2009
Wow. Compassion abounds.
Or not.
There is a history of depression in my family. You hard fuckers have nothing more than an opinion. Don't confuse it with understanding.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 06:01 PM on November 11, 2009
Suicide isn't a statement - "fuck you" or otherwise - it's a tragic symptom of an unravelled mind. If the German goalkeeper had suffered a fatal aneurysm, no one would be decrying his lack of humanity for leaving his family. You wouldn't mock or criticise someone with a mental illness for behaving oddly; you'd accept that they weren't in control of their mental faculties. So why this idea that he "decided" to kill himself? In a deep depression, you don't decide anything.
posted by JJ at 06:52 PM on November 11, 2009
Suicide isn't a statement - "fuck you" or otherwise - it's a tragic symptom of an unravelled mind.
Maybe not in this case JJ, but sometimes it is very much a statement.
Generalizing suicide as a loss of control of 'mental faculties' isn't accurate.
Interestingly enough, from the same wiki link is this:
German law interprets suicide as an accident and anyone present during suicide may be prosecuted for failure to render aid in an emergency. A suicide legally becomes emergency when a suicidal person loses consciousness. Failure to render aid is punishable under article 323c of the StGB, with a maximum one year jail sentence.
posted by BoKnows at 07:10 PM on November 11, 2009
Fair point, BoKnows - I'll qualify that as the suicide of someone suffering from depression is not a statement. Robert Enke had been clinically depressed for six years.
posted by JJ at 07:49 PM on November 11, 2009
Blaming someone with depression for killing themselves is like blaming someone with cancer for dying.
Attitudes like Drood are a huge part of the reason depressives kill themselves. Your hate and contempt for the mentally aren't part of the solution, moron, they're part of the problem.
posted by rodgerd at 08:18 PM on November 11, 2009
When I sat there seriously considering ending my own life and the best way to do it, I thought of my wife and children, and how sad and traumatized they would be whichever way I did it. And I stepped back from the edge that day and damn glad I did.
Whereas Enke thought about his wife and child and likely thought, in his diseased mental state, that they would be better off without him. After all, him being away for so long, in a career he was "failing" at, with no other way to provide for them, because what else does he know but soccer? If he was out of the picture, the threat of their daughter being taken away would be gone. His wife could find someone better to love her and help raise their daughter, someone not broken. After all, he couldn't even save his first daughter. Yeah, they'll be sad, but they'll move on, and be better for it. Hey, there's a train.
Or, you know, maybe he didn't think a single thought about them. I don't really know. To be fair, I doubt he really thought much about what he'd leave behind for the bystanders. I guess I just don't see the usefulness in getting pissed off at dead people for offing themselves when they were clearly in a very broken mental state.
Now, after writing this comment, I'm off to watch baby ducks in a bathtub.
posted by dirigibleman at 08:22 PM on November 11, 2009
People who are kicking Drood up and down the thread seem to have overlooked his comment "And I say that as someone who has tried."
posted by rcade at 08:52 PM on November 11, 2009
Thank you for pointing that out rcade. I was just reading this and thinking about all of the shoe leather that will be eaten once everyone realizes they didn't read Drood's entire post very well. I sure hope no one chokes on it.
I think it is safe to say that just about all of us have been depressed about something at one point or another. The problem becomes much worse when you can not break the cycle of depression. Then it becomes a chronic problem, where you can't sleep or eat, you don't want to go out anywhere. You start to alienate yourself from family and friends. Once you feel all alone, sometimes it feels like the only thing to do.
Glad you are ok and here with us today Drood.
posted by jojomfd1 at 03:31 AM on November 12, 2009
People who are kicking Drood up and down the thread seem to have overlooked his comment "And I say that as someone who has tried."
I saw that comment and chose to ignore it as the red herring it clearly is. By definition, no one posting on the topic of suicide can play the experience trump card. A failed suicide attempt doesn't make it OK for you to talk out of your arse.
And I didn't feel the need to drag someone else into the event like this asshole.
I chose to ignore that remark too. It smacks a little of "your suicide sucks".
rogerd has it spot on - suicide is a potential consequence of depression just as death is a potential consequence of cancer. Drood's argument is akin to Lance Armstrong walking through a palliative care ward calling the dying patients losers.
posted by JJ at 05:05 AM on November 12, 2009
By definition, no one posting on the topic of suicide can play the experience trump card.
True, but some people have experience battling the same demons that Enke did, which I presume is where Drood's anger is coming from.
posted by rcade at 07:39 AM on November 12, 2009
suicide is a potential consequence of depression just as death is a potential consequence of cancer
This statement is missing one word, untreated.
posted by jojomfd1 at 07:50 AM on November 12, 2009
True, but some people have experience battling the same demons that Enke did, which I presume is where Drood's anger is coming from.
The source of Drood's anger is Bernie Ecclestone - we all know that - and maybe Max Mosely. And Michael Schumacher. And Ferrari in general. And... anyway.
Drood's ability (or mine, or yours, or anyone's) to overcome depression (if that's what drove Drood to attempt suicide) casts no shade on Enke's tragic loss of his own struggle with his own demons. If someone is so depressed that they want to end their own life, I think it's unrealistic to expect them to do it in a considerate way - that far into the darkness you can't see things like that. I don't know Drood's situation, but would suggest that in some way, the continued ability to still be thinking of others could have contributed to pulling him back from the edge.
This statement is missing one word, untreated.
Enke had been getting treatment since 2003. Or are you suggesting that all depression is treatable and curable? If you are, you're one step short of telling us all to just pull our socks up and get on with it, which isn't overly helpful.
posted by JJ at 08:18 AM on November 12, 2009
I don't think Drood was blaming the guy for killing himself, but for potentially destroying another life by the way he chose to kill himself. The person driving the train that struck someone wanting to commit suicide is a victim of a terrible tragedy. I think it is okay to be a little pissed that someone would bring innocent victims along for the ride.
posted by bperk at 09:56 AM on November 12, 2009
By all means be pissed if you think that's what Enke was doing. My point (it's so rare that I have one that I'm probably making a mess of expressing it) is simply that it seems very unlikely to me that Enke had such a thought - by the end he probably had no capability for such a thought.
posted by JJ at 11:11 AM on November 12, 2009
Instead of assuming what Drood meant, why don't we just allow him to speak so that he can clarify his meaning. I, personally never meant to insult or belittle Drood for his opinion, I just wanted him to understand that there are people that have been depressed but with professional help, they were able to overcome those demons and come away triumphant. I cannot and will not look down upon people who have suffered from depression because it is a mental disease. If in any way I came across as insensitive, I apologize. My intentions were just to show that people that suffer from depression can in fact get help and continue to live their lives.
posted by BornIcon at 01:43 PM on November 12, 2009
Enke had been getting treatment since 2003. Or are you suggesting that all depression is treatable and curable? If you are, you're one step short of telling us all to just pull our socks up and get on with it, which isn't overly helpful.
Suicide is a potential consequence of untreated depression just as death is a potential consequence of untreated cancer.
Not saying that at all JJ, not everything is curable. Some forms of cancer are not death sentences if treated, all depression does not end in suicide treated or not. Untreated it is more likely to lead to that endind. I know it says he had been treated since 2003, but his wife also says this in the article, "He didn't want to accept help any more." Thats all I'm saying.
posted by jojomfd1 at 03:14 PM on November 12, 2009
JJ, I would think it would be great to have a beer with you. We seem to have some similar perspectives. (P.S. Do you think I'm cute?)
To be honest, I don't think that you can ever relate to a person who has been clinically depressed if you never have been. Most people I talk to seem to equate it to coming down to making the right choices, and depressed people are more prone to making the wrong one - as a consequence of being depressed. But that's not it. What seems obvious (you're loved ones will miss you) to others does not present itself as a choice to make. It just seems to work it's way to being the outcome. Go right, go left. It doesn't matter.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 05:37 PM on November 12, 2009
jojo: Logically, the statement works with or without the word "untreated". People who get treatment for either condition can and do still die. The suicide of a depressed person is not necessarily caused by a failure in their treatment, just as the death of a cancer patient is not necessarily caused by a failure in theirs.
I saw what his wife said - crushingly sad to hear it and to imagine how she must be feeling at the moment - but again I'd argue that in a deep depression a person isn't capable of making a decision like "I don't want help anymore".
I tried to write a column here a few years ago about mental illness in sport, but I just couldn't get my words around my idea. I might try again.
Weedy: you're not really my type, but luckily for you I also have very low standards; and if there's drinking and smoking involved, almost no standards at all.
I'm not sure I'd agree that you have to have been clinically depressed yourself in order to relate to someone else who is, although unquestionably it makes it easier if you have been. I suppose maybe you can understand it without ever fully relating to it if you've never experienced it.
Depression + "if I killed myself, my loved ones will miss me" = "I deserve to die for even thinking about doing something that would cause my loved ones pain"
The saddest thing for the families and friends afterwards is the blame that flies around - whether it's projected at others or internalised. Everyone is wise after the event, but none of the wisdom is worth a damn by then.
posted by JJ at 05:19 AM on November 13, 2009
...and if there's drinking and smoking involved
Then it's a party!! Whooo hooooooo!!!
posted by BornIcon at 07:42 AM on November 13, 2009
As a bit of follow up: coincidentally, the BBC have been working on an episode of Inside Sport devoted to depression in sport. The show will air in the UK on 25th November at 22:45. Gaby Logan (the show's host) writes about it, and its added poignancy in light of Enke's suicide, here.
One line that stands out for me in the trailer for the show comes from Neil Lennon: "Being depressed is one thing; having depression is another thing. Depression is an illness."
posted by JJ at 10:16 AM on November 13, 2009
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