11/21/24
May 03, 2007
Pistons 4 : - Magic 0
Cavaliers 4 - Wizards 0
Nets 3 - Raptors 2
Bulls 4 - Heat 0
Mavericks 2 - Warriors 3
Suns 4 - Lakers 1
Nuggets 1 - Spurs 4
Rockets 3 - Jazz 2
posted by lilnemo to basketball at 12:42 PM - 55 comments
Anybody else think the Stephen Jackson tossing was a little ridiculous? I only saw it once when they replayed it during the telecast so I could be wrong. The Golden State Blog above and Free Darko are the only places I've seen anything on it.
posted by tron7 at 01:24 PM on May 03, 2007
I think if the Mavs win to-nite they will win game 7 at home
posted by snooky at 01:38 PM on May 03, 2007
The NBA did a good job of keeping the Suns alive last night. Everytime the Lakers cut the lead to single digits, the refs took over. I admit that the Suns are a far better team, but getting hosed by the refs is never easy to swallow. Amare shooting 20 free throws is god damn ridiculous.
posted by yay-yo at 02:33 PM on May 03, 2007
The NBA did a good job of keeping the Suns alive last night. Yes, the NBA wants the Lakers out of the playoffs ASAP.
posted by tron7 at 03:12 PM on May 03, 2007
The snook is absolutely correct.I add that there is no reason the top seed should struggle with a team that backed in(except this is the playoffs) Go Mavs!
posted by sickleguy at 03:27 PM on May 03, 2007
I admit that the Suns are a far better team, but getting hosed by the refs is never easy to swallow. I'm sorry. Aren't you a Laker fan? And you're complaining about bad officiating? The Lakers get more calls than Paris Hilton that first night someone hacked her cell phone. That Sacremento game is etched in my brain. Laker's fans should have to sign a waiver suggesting they can't bitch about unfair officiating for 30 years after that travesty. Ralph Nader wrote a letter to David fucking Stern about how the integrity of the entire game came into question that night.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 03:28 PM on May 03, 2007
Yeah, Laker fans complaining about referees is the height of irony. A guy going to the free-throw line 20 times in one night isn't as crazy as you might think. It's a little out of the ordinary, sure, but when you have a guy playing in the middle, like Amare, playing against inferior inside players, like the Lakers, the stage is set. Add in the fact that, unlike a lot of teams, Phoenix actually involves their center in the offense, and you get the potential for a lot of foul calls.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 04:54 PM on May 03, 2007
That is precious. A Laker fan bitchin about calls. I mean come on, you guys are only the 2nd biggest market in the country. You also have Jordan Jr. to draw phantom fouls. Stern would have splooged himself if they could have made it to the next round. as for the Mavs coming back, if they win game 6, game 7 will be a lock. See Pistons-Magic 1st round series, 2003(I believe) Hey Weedy, I know exactly what you are saying, big UofM fan so Webber has been my hero since his freshman year. So needless to say I still havent forgotten that Sacramento series, never will, I became an NBA conspiracy theorist after that series and it has taken me years to get over believing that. I was able to use some reasoning to do it...ie: Sacramento missed an absurd amount of free throws that final quarter of game 7, ya cant blame the refs or Stern for that. (but if you want to for game 6 I wont try to change your mind!) Tron7- Jackson's dumb-ass (I live in Indy, he is HATED here) did exactly what Duncan did, that mock clapping, but it was still stunning to see. I could agree with T-ing him up, but that ref just threw his ass out, the ending to that game was just...weird
posted by dezznutz at 05:30 PM on May 03, 2007
That Sacremento game is etched in my brain. Which one? We've beat down Sacramento so many times that it's starting to get sad. Dezz is right though, Sacramento just blew it, like they always do. Before you tell me that I am crazy go ahead and watch the 4th quarter. Raja Bell hacked Kobe at least 5 times with no call and they all resulted in fast breaks for the suns. Ralph Nader wrote a letter to David fucking Stern about how the integrity of the entire game came into question that night. When Raja Fuckin Bell can get away with slapping the greatest player on the planet in the 4th quarter of a playoff game, people should start worrying about the integrity of the game. I used to hate Jordan and the Bulls, so I can understand where you're coming from. But I actually rooted for the Bulls to beat Miami this year and I'm going to root for them while they kick the shit out of the Pistons.
posted by yay-yo at 09:23 PM on May 03, 2007
I sense no homerism in that comment at all.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 09:38 PM on May 03, 2007
No, none. Greatest player on the planet? Hell, he wasn't even the greatest player in that series. hint.....the greatest player in that series was born in South Africa.
posted by tommybiden at 10:11 PM on May 03, 2007
Yeah, I had nightmares about that alley-oop pass to Marion that provided free haircuts for two Lakers defenders.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 11:40 PM on May 03, 2007
Requiem for a Season I've all and nothing to say. As an ardent exisitialist, I can swallow this. Great regular season, Mavs. However, nobody, and I mean nobody, could've done this to you other than Nellie. Mr. Miyagi turning on Danial-San? Fun. Baron and Barnes playing on gimpy hampstrings? Fun. Shots falling for a Duke-esque crowd in Oracle? Fantastic. Nellie finally winning an unwinnable battle? I'm (seriously) happy for him However, I feel like I've been simultaneously punched in the balls, gut, and throat, with a Three-Stooges-esque eyepoke as frosting. Granted, it's midnight and a half here, and yeah, I'm a bit drunk and horribly crestfallen, but go on, Warriors. I can't figure out if I'm for you or against you. But you certainly earned this. I could elaborate more, but I have a very serendiputous 2:45 flight tomorrow afternoon to Florida, where I can just relax on the beach and drink and let it all go, and the rest of the NBA playoffs can work themselves out. However, I'll say this: If, and I think he will, Dirk wins the MVP for the season, I'm not bailing off of his wagon. He deserves it. He's earned it. And sheepish as it will be for him to accept it, under whatever circumstances, nobody will be harder on him than he is. He ain't soft, he's just my German.
posted by Ufez Jones at 12:31 AM on May 04, 2007
Dirk may have just lost himself that MVP. Kobe couldn't will his team past the first round. Nash, meanwhile...
posted by PublicUrinal at 12:50 AM on May 04, 2007
PublicUrinal, the ballots were in before the start of the playoffs. It's a regular season MVP award.
posted by apoch at 03:29 AM on May 04, 2007
Greatest player on the planet? Hell, he wasn't even the greatest player in that series. hint.....the greatest player in that series was born in South Africa. Get real. You fuckin haters are too much. Can you name one person who can do ALL of the things that Kobe does (30+ ppg, 5+ apg, 5+rpg, 1st team all-defense, All-star game MVP)? Not to mention he does it all against teams who are only trying to stop HIM (he's got no help). I don't expect you to say that you love Kobe, but when you try to say the guy is not the best player in the world, you lose all your credibility relating to NBA discussions.
posted by yay-yo at 09:14 AM on May 04, 2007
Wait - because someone doesn't agree with you that Kobe's "the best player on the planet" they're a fucking hater? You're impossible to discuss sports with. You're a complete homer who can't put anything into a perspective that inspires any kind of actual discussion. You think fouls and officiating lost that game for the Lakers? No chance. They were a second-tier team against Phoenix. They couldn't compete with them at all. It was a cake-walk. And it was because Kobe's teammates aren't good enough, and Kobe seems to get frustrated with them too easily. Amare taking 20 free throws is ridiculous, but Kobe taking 20 free throws is totally not riciulous, cuz, he's like, the best evar. Kobe's taken 23 free throws in a game before. Kobe's taken 16 in a quarter. And much like Kobe - there isn't another player in the NBA who puts up the stats Nash does. No one. Name another player that will get you 20 points, 11 assists, while taking less than 18 shots and hitting over half of them, and hiting better than 45% from three. There isn't one. (And All-Star game MVP impresses you? Whoop-de-fucking-do.) See, I actually agree that the best pure take-the-ball-and-put-it-in-the-bucket player in the League is Kobe. But your gold covered glasses can't seem to see the other magnificent and different players out there, who also have completely unique games and give their teams the same kind of value.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:47 AM on May 04, 2007
Dirk may have just lost himself that MVP Sorry, but he may have been a lost cause in the playoffs but what he did in the regular season is what counts to win the MVP. I wouldn't go out on a limb and say he deserves the MVP award (Personally, I rather see it go to Steve Nash) but he may very well win it after all.
posted by BornIcon at 09:58 AM on May 04, 2007
When Raja Fuckin Bell can get away with slapping the greatest player on the planet in the 4th quarter of a playoff game Excuse me but if I'm not mistaken, "the greatest player on the planet" retired after the 2002-2003 season and his name is Michael Jeffrey Jordan.
posted by BornIcon at 10:12 AM on May 04, 2007
When Raja Fuckin Bell can get away with slapping the greatest player on the planet in the 4th quarter of a playoff game, people should start worrying about the integrity of the game. You're saying that it would've been OK slapping any other player??? You LA guys are so full of it...
posted by gloglu at 10:17 AM on May 04, 2007
Get real. You.....are too much. ... All-star game MVP? ..... he does it all.... he's no help. ...... the guy is not the best player in the world, ...I ....lose all credibility relating to NBA discussions. There, I fixed that for you. All-star game MVP, how is that important at all?
posted by tommybiden at 10:39 AM on May 04, 2007
What Weedy said, right there. We're talking about two completely different types of players, both the absolute best at what they do. Kobe takes the ball at the top of the circle and wills the ball into the basket. Nash runs the ball down the court, moves the defence around, creates space, and gets the ball to the player with the best chance of making the basket. Which style of play won? Which style of play dominated? Of course, run-and-gun isn't the be-all and end-all of basketball. If you put another 1990s-style superstar onto that Lakers team, then the Suns have a lot of trouble with them. That's how the Lakers won a bazillion championships back in the day. But teams aren't sold on that approach anymore. Nobody wants to deal with the cap hits, the ego soothing, the coaching issues that the load-up-on-superstars approach brings. GMs are realizing that the right five guys working together can be just as good as one and a half big names, and a helluva lot more entertaining.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 11:48 AM on May 04, 2007
Sorry, I realized that I forgot to address the "but Marion and Stoudemire are superstars" counter-argument. So, before someone brings it up: both those guys are very very good, but I don't think they're good enough to be used as 1990s-style superstars, carrying a team while the three other guys try to get out of their way. Their stats over the past couple of years may indicate otherwise, but I maintain that a non-insignificant percentage of their stats got bumped up directly because of Steve Nash's ability to move the defence and create space for them to work.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 12:00 PM on May 04, 2007
(Personally, I rather see it go to Steve Nash) Yes he is by far the most valuable player on the team, and I am not necessarily siding with the homer and saying Kobe deserves it, but in all honesty, the award is worthless, not as worthless as the All-Star MVP, but still not that important. Dirk deserves it for the regular season he had. I mean in all honesty, the award ya really want is the Finals MVP. Point in case, Nash has won the MVP two years running, how many championships do the Suns have? Zero. Western Confrence Championships? Zero. My hometown hero Peyton Manning won the award twice, then each of those 2 years Brady & Co. bounced us from the play-offs. I am beginning to think this MVP thing is a curse for teams...
posted by dezznutz at 01:27 PM on May 04, 2007
Well said, Mr. McSmokey. You're the best Weedy on the planet!
posted by The_Black_Hand at 03:26 PM on May 04, 2007
1. I never said that any other player sucked or wasn't any good. I have a lot of favorite players and if I was in the NBA, I would want to play with Steve Nash. Maybe instead of calling Kobe the best player on the planet I can amend it to the Best All-Around Player On the Planet. Got a problem with that? Show me someone who does more. (BTW Nash has no defense and can't rebound.) 2. I'm sorry for stating the obvious and next time I'll cool off before I post about officiating. 3. I agreed that the Suns were by far the better team and never said that the whole series was won by the ref's, only game 5. (The Suns almost definately would have won the next game and definately would have won game 7 in Phoenix.) 4. Sorry for being a homer. But I love my hometown teams. Lakers, Clippers, Raiders, Rams, Ducks, Kings, Dodgers, Angles... But I am always honest.
posted by yay-yo at 04:11 PM on May 04, 2007
Can you name one person who can do ALL of the things that Kobe does (30+ ppg, 5+ apg, 5+rpg, 1st team all-defense, All-star game MVP)? ...Maybe instead of calling Kobe the best player on the planet I can amend it to the Best All-Around Player On the Planet. Allen Iverson. Tracy McGrady. Shawn Marion (if he wasn't playing for the Suns), Andrei Kirilenko (if he was more selfish), Kevin Garnett. There's probably a shortlist of about 10 players in the league who are capable of matching your criteria. But that is neither here nor there. I felt Kobe had a great season, but he's not the MVP. The whole idea of crowning some one the best this or that is highly subjective and more that a bit argumentative. Its best to just agree to disagree.
posted by lilnemo at 01:06 PM on May 05, 2007
Kobe is the best One-on-One player on the planet. BUT.... he is not the winner that most MVP's are. He does NOT make his teamates better, and that is the most VALUABLE part of this award. He was on his way to being the leading candidate at the beginning of the season averaging 25 instead of 35 points, but his team was WINNING. The Lakers should have won more games this year. Players I think should be MVP candidates every year: Steve Nash Tim Duncan Chaucey Billups LeBron James Gilbert Arenas D'Wade (when they have a better record) Tracy McGrady (when he plays more than 60 games)
posted by Snikastyle at 01:42 PM on May 05, 2007
First off, I would like to state that I NEVER said that Kobe should be the MVP. Shawn Marion (if he wasn't playing for the Suns) Just the fact that you would mention Marion in the same sentence as Kobe shows that you need to watch a little more b-ball. Marion would be a bench warmer on any other team without Nash. All he does is run and jump. He shoots like a 12 year old girl (from the waist, with 2 hands). All of the other guys you named are good players (not too sure about Kirilenko after this season) but, McGrady and Lebron are the only two players in the league that can even get close to Kobe when it come to all-around game. The problem is that McGrady won't play defense and LeBron just hasn't gotten good at it yet. If he does, he could be the best all-around player. Until then, Kobe's the man. Players I think should be MVP candidates every year: So other players should be MVP candidates every year, regardless of their teams record, but the Lakers have to win in order for Kobe to be considered? I would like to apologize to all of you for Kobe. He is sorry that he fucked that mentally unstable, money hungry, white bitch. Now get over it.
posted by yay-yo at 03:07 PM on May 05, 2007
I would like to apologize to all of you for Kobe. He is sorry that he fucked that mentally unstable, money hungry, white bitch. Now get over it. Wow! No, really, wow.
posted by tommybiden at 04:22 PM on May 05, 2007
Just the fact that you would mention Marion in the same sentence as Kobe shows that you need to watch a little more b-ball. Dismissive much? Christ. We disagree. Fine. But just because we have a difference of opinion doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. And for what its worth, making statements like this:
Marion would be a bench warmer on any other team without Nash.Don't make you look like much of an expert either.
I would like to apologize to all of you for Kobe. He is sorry that he fucked that mentally unstable, money hungry, white bitch. Now get over it.Ok. Seriously, the fact that you find this relevant at all is sad. Since you insist on implying I (and others) am biased I will make a full disclosure. I am a native Californian, I have lived and worked in Los Angeles for many years. I root for all of the local teams, including the Lakers. I have been (and still am) a Laker fan since the '80s. I think Kobe Bryant is a phenomenal player. I honestly don't think he forced Shaq out of L.A. But I do believe that trading Shaq was a good move (given his propensity for injuries, age, and motivational deficiencies). I don't think he raped that troubled young woman, and I don't believe he owes me or anyone else other than his wife an apology. And yet, somehow, by some miracle I can still admit that there are players who are comparable to Kobe Bryant. For whatever reason I can set aside my admiration for Kobe's gifts and acknowledge that he's not the end all be all. Its not called "being a hater" when you set aside your own bias to try and make a reasoned argument, its called being objective. You do yourself (and your argument) a great disservice if you can not be civil or merely agree to disagree.
posted by lilnemo at 04:44 PM on May 05, 2007
All I was saying is that, YES, Kobe does have to win to get MVP consideration. I think overall, he is one of the best players in the game. BUT he cannot work with other players. They have a better-than-good supporting cast, and they rarely look like a contender. Odom is the most laid back, all-around, complementary player you can find in the NBA today.... but with Kobe on the court, he is not able to contribute. Kobe "plays" A LOT like Jordan, but he is missing the x-factor. He doesn't mesh well with other players. He passes well, but doesn't utilize that part of his game enough. He plays great defense, but it is not necessarily great TEAM defense. He can take 2 or 3 players to the basket and make the shot a lot of the time, but he can't find the open players. Kobe is the most prolific scorer of his era, but he should never win an MVP trophy unless his team is a legit contender. HOWEVER, it does look like next year will be a different Laker team. I expect Odom to be moved, and the Laker starting line up to change. There should be a new PG, and maybe.... someone like Garnett, Gasol, or hopefully Jermaine O'Neal. O'Neal is also an MVP candidate on a winning team. That would be a perfect set-up for Kobe to get his last chance at a title. JO is in his prime years, as is Kobe. It would also benefit Odom to get some space from the superstar. He could be a great TEAM leader. Odom is the kind of guy that could lead a team of good players, like the Pacers. This will be the best offseason, movement-wise IN YEARS!
posted by Snikastyle at 07:11 PM on May 05, 2007
And yet, somehow, by some miracle I can still admit that there are players who are comparable to Kobe Bryant. As did I, by mentioning LeBron James and T-Mac. And yes, you thinking that Shawn Merion is even close to being the califber of player that Kobe is, shows that you either: 1) love the suns 2) take medication for a mental imbalance or 3) need to be locked up in a mental institution. Odom is the most laid back, all-around, complementary player you can find in the NBA today.... but with Kobe on the court, he is not able to contribute. I guess you didn't notice that Lamar was having his most productive season EVER, until he got injured.
posted by yay-yo at 07:52 PM on May 05, 2007
Yay-yo you will never convince others of your point if you repeatedly insult them when they disagree with you. /patiently waits for the next thread so he can boast about the Pistons
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 08:59 PM on May 05, 2007
As did I, by mentioning LeBron James and T-Mac. And yes, you thinking that Shawn Merion is even close to being the califber of player that Kobe is, shows that you either: 1) love the suns 2) take medication for a mental imbalance or 3) need to be locked up in a mental institution. C'mon yay-yo think about it. All of those players have teammates that are included in the gameplan and don't need thier star to do what Kobe does. The Lakers may have Odom and he may have been having a pretty good year, but the Lakers are still a non-contending team. Marion would be a bench warmer on any other team without Nash. Uhhhh he did start before the Suns got Nash. And if he didn't have Amare' and Nash, he would be reeling in 20 PPG. 11 RPG. 5 APG. and 10 dunks a game. Let's put it this way Shawn Marion is a phenom and is a huge part of the Suns. I would like to apologize to all of you for Kobe. He is sorry that he fucked that mentally unstable, money hungry, white bitch. Now get over it. Omfg. Dude, get a fuckin grip. I for one thought he was innocent the whole time and I always liked him before and after that bullshit. But c'mon i don't think people are degrading him just because he got framed.
posted by TelamarketersBeware at 08:44 AM on May 07, 2007
But c'mon i don't think people are degrading him just because he got framed. If that's not it, what is IT? That's the only negative thing that has ever happened to the guy. Why else does everyone hate the man so much? And by the way... Have you ever seen Shawn Marion dribble? He can't. Which means he can't create his own shot. Without Nash, he would have to because he wouldn't be getting 10 layups/dunks a game.
posted by yay-yo at 09:23 AM on May 07, 2007
Shawn Marion: Good player, high energy - great defender. An All-Star. The best player ever out of UNLV. Couldn't create his own shot if his life depended on it. Needs a point guard, and he's had a few decent ones - Kidd, Marbury and Nash. Let's not go nuts looking at the stat sheet, gang. He's actually been pretty spoiled in terms of PGs. He's not a MVP player by my count. He's a top 20-30 player in the L, and if that's not good enough, well, too bad. But no MVP - he's not in the class of the other guys by virtue of his inability to make his own offence if needed. I like the defence, but people harp on that too much (Nash can't defend, blah, blah, blah). Basketball is a game based on offense. It's a scoring game. Unless you're a shot-blocking centre, and in most cases even if you are, defence in the NBA is a TEAM responsiblity. You have to study the tape, know the tendencies of your opponent and play to your strengths and their weaknesses (force right-handed shooters left; funnel guys to your big man; no big man? Zone out, etc.). This is how Jeff Van Gundy coaches the Rockets to the best defensive record in the league despite having no players outside of Battier that anyone would consider any good defensively (Alston? McGrady? Yao? Luther Head? Yuck.) This is my main complaint with people who think Nash sucks because the talking heads keep saying "he doesn't play D" like it's 1999 or something. He does play D. He plays good TEAM D. He takes more charges than any other guard in the blocks, he reads the set-ups well and helps on double teams great. He can't guard a guy on the ball, and other guards can score on him, but he knows where to go on transition and causes turnovers as well as any other guard. Hell, you can BLOW by Jason Kidd, but he's a good defender because he finds the holes and is a great defensive rebounder. Since there's a stat that shows his contribution, people tend to gloss over the fact that Kidd gets routinely taken off the dribble. Defence is more than just a hand in the face. Why else does everyone hate the man so much? He comes across as a phony. With Kobe everything seems like snake oil. He says the right things and wants to be the superstar, but he pouted in the second half of game 7 last year (when he barely took a shot in the second half) and seems mostly concerned with his personal legacy. Why anyone would drum out Shaq after losing 1 out of 4 championships is beyond me. Would a guy who ultimately only cared about winning do that? Would Jordan do that even if he didn't like the guy? I just think he runs a game on everyone. His need to be constantly recognized as "the best" actually seems like a weakness in his case. In Jordan's it was a strength. I don't pretend to really know why.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:33 AM on May 07, 2007
Basketball is a game based on offense. It's a scoring game. This is the only point i disagree with. Have you ever played basketball? Defence is the key to winning. For example, look at the Bulls-Pistons game last night * sob sob *. Detroit held the Bulls to 69 points by stepping up on D and then scoring of turnovers. Bulls had over 20 TOs* bangs computer *. I agree with everthing else you said. The reason people hate Kobe is because he whines. He is the T.O. of basketball. After every game he scores under 20 points he looks like he's about to cry.
posted by TelamarketersBeware at 10:29 AM on May 07, 2007
Why anyone would drum out Shaq after losing 1 out of 4 championships is beyond me. If you remember, Shaq asked to leave. Because he didn't want to defer to Kobe. But in Miami, he felt OK letting Wade run the show? What's that tell you about Shaq? He says the right things and wants to be the superstar, but he pouted in the second half of game 7 last year (when he barely took a shot in the second half) and seems mostly concerned with his personal legacy. But if he scored 60 points and they lost, you would say that he was too selfish, right? It didn't have anything to do with the fact that the Suns were just a better team? The reason people hate Kobe is because he whines. Name one player in the league that doesn't. He is the T.O. of basketball. How many championships has T.O. won? How many teams has Kobe played for? That comment is just stupid. Get a fuckin clue.
posted by yay-yo at 11:15 AM on May 07, 2007
But if he scored 60 points and they lost, you would say that he was too selfish, right? You show me one place where I have ever said that Kobe was selfish for scoring that many at any time. I never have and never will, because I'm not a simpelton. Don't argue my point by putting someone elses words in my mouth. The reality is he didn't take a shot in the second half of a game 7. He either: a) Gave up. b) Was so pissed at his teammates lack of execution that he wanted to prove it to Lakers management so he... See a). c) He was being hounded by the defense stalwarts of the Phoenix Suns so much that he had to defer to his teammates. Wait. Nope. See a). He was frustrated and he sulked. He did. It's a blemish in his career from something that happened on the floor. It is. Sorry that you don't like it, but it's entirely the perception and I think it probably has some truth to it. You asked why some people don't like him. That's why I think they don't. But don't confuse yourself - I like Kobe the player. But there are many, many reasons (some above) why at the end of it all, there won't be many that put him at the top of the pyramid. This is the only point i disagree with. Have you ever played basketball? Defence is the key to winning. For example, look at the Bulls-Pistons game last night * sob sob *. Detroit held the Bulls to 69 points by stepping up on D and then scoring of turnovers. Okay - I said that a little wrong. When I say basketball is an offensive game, I mean it in the context of comparing to other sports. A great defence in basketball still allows the opponent to score 30-35 baskets in a game (not counting free throws) out of 80 possessions. Now, that's a game that is predicated on offense. The calls and the rules are all established to the advantage of the team on offense. Teh 24 second shot clock is about offense. Good defensive teams limit the success but the game itself is about generating offense. And while "defense wins championships" is a great cliche, often I think it comes down to clutch shooting that wins championships, or to put it another way "good offense". Basketball is truly a game of clutchness. That's what makes the great players so great. For instance - Miami was not a great defensive team, but a tremendous half-court offensive team - and no duh, with Shaq in the middle (who wasn't then/and no longer is a great rebounder or shot-blocker). The Showtime Lakers and Celtics - No where near the defensive leaders in the NBA during their eras. But the Celtics especially could play D when needed. If they faced a team with one great perimeter player - they could shut that player down with Dennis Johnson. I'm not sure I'd even call the Bulls a defensive team - even though they had Pippen (who was the best on the ball defender I ever saw play). They had no shot-blocking and weren't great on the boards. But they could shoot. Outside of the recent Pistons win - and they're actually a fabulous offensive team with 2 players that can get their own shot ('Sheed/Billups) and 2 players that can shoot and drive with the best (Rip/Prince) - I can't think of a great defensive team that has won the title in the last two decades. Maybe the Spurs? They're good defensively in the traditional sense - they rebound, block shots and don't turn it over much. But they're a great offensive team, too - so it's hard to say. No - I think defense is great and important, but it's a timely and selective thing. Winning teams typically feature the better offensive players. The Pistons of the early 90s and two years ago are the only exceptions I can think of. But feel free to research that one. I could be overstating my case.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:42 PM on May 07, 2007
How many championships has T.O. won? How many teams has Kobe played for? That comment is just stupid. Get a fuckin clue. I meant in PERSONALITY>, not skill. I'm not saying that he is as bad as T.O. he just talks to much about himself. When the Lakers lose he pouts that he didn't shoot enough or that his teammates didn't step up. Listen yay-yo nobody is going to agree with you or listen to you if you don't just calm down and chill. Your talking as if somebody teabagged and hosed yer mom. Sorry Weedy i see what your saying and agree. I'll still do the research because it sounds interesting and post it later
posted by TelamarketersBeware at 01:59 PM on May 07, 2007
he just talks to much about himself. Please, please, show me one instance of this. I have NEVER heard Kobe say, "I am the best". When he gets interviewed after a game, win or lose, he talks about the team as a whole. If the reporters ask him about his stats or how he played, he tells them. I watch 80% of Laker games, and I always see Kobe's interviews, he never brags or boasts. It seems like people dislike him so much that they have to make up some shit to base their hatred on. He's just damn good. Get over it. He's nothing like T.O. I'm not saying that he's flawless by any means, but come on now. You can make up something better than that. The Pistons of the early 90s and two years ago are the only exceptions I can think of. . I think you can throw in the Spurs recent championship teams (especially the ones with D. Robinson and Duncan sharing the paint) and the Rockets (with Hakeem blocking just about everything in the paint). If you really check into it, you will find that most teams who win championships do it with a mixture of both. You can't win if you don't score more points than the other team or You can't win if you let the other team score more points than you. They go hand in hand.
posted by yay-yo at 03:07 PM on May 07, 2007
If you remember, Shaq asked to leave. Because he didn't want to defer to Kobe. But in Miami, he felt OK letting Wade run the show? What's that tell you about Shaq? Tells me that Dwayne Wade isn't nearly the asshole that Kobe was. In Shaq's eyes, anyway. You are far too Kobe-centric to have any kind of objectivity on this subject. You might as well just live with the injustice that the rest of the world doesn't share the same love for him that you do. As long as you keep acting like somebody's insulting you every time they write something non-glowing about Kobe, you're not going to make any headway at all, and you're going to keep getting lectured on internet etiquette by teenagers. Two of 'em have felt the need to do so in this thread already.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 05:05 AM on May 08, 2007
You are far too Kobe-centric to have any kind of objectivity on this subject. You might as well just live with the injustice that the rest of the world doesn't share the same love for him that you do. You might be right there... People seem to have an unbased hatred toward the man. BTW, fuck teenagers. They're all assholes anyway.
posted by yay-yo at 09:53 AM on May 08, 2007
BTW, fuck teenagers. They're all assholes anyway. Hmmm maybe thier not the real assholes here. yay-yo do just live to start arguments and throwing shit at people? I don't hate Kobe, I like Kobe. I just don't think he's the best and he talks to much. My opinion, get over it.
posted by TelamarketersBeware at 08:16 AM on May 09, 2007
I just don't think he's the best and he talks to much. My opinion, get over it. It's nice to think. However having some facts to base your opinion on would make your case even stronger. I would respect your opinion more if you said, "Kobe's not the best because (fill in the blank) is. And my reasoning for that is x, y, z." Instead of just saying, "He talks too much." To who? About what?
posted by yay-yo at 10:42 AM on May 09, 2007
I didn't know this was a Kobe thread. Haven't the Lakers gone fishing since they lost to the Suns? Why is there still conversation about the Lakers when they're not even playing?
posted by BornIcon at 11:49 AM on May 09, 2007
Because Kobe's manager keeps posting stuff.
posted by The_Black_Hand at 03:55 PM on May 09, 2007
Manager? or Mistress?
posted by hawkguy at 04:08 PM on May 09, 2007
However having some facts to base your opinion on would make your case even stronger. So your entire arguement is that those who disagree with you don't have a fuckin clue, have a mental imbalance, need to be locked up in a mental institution, they need to watch a little more b-ball, and that they are fuckin haters. Learning how to make a proper arguement would make your case even stronger.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 04:27 PM on May 09, 2007
Learning how to make a proper arguement would make your case even stronger. Let me state it again. Kobe is unquestionably the best offensive player in the game. Then, when you add in the fact that he is a perennial 1st-team all-nba defender... Make your own conclusions. I already agreed with TBH that I am going to have to agree to disagree. I'm still waiting for someone to show me the interview when Kobe made all these comments about how he's the best and everyone else sucks. You think the guy is an asshole, and you feel that he is conceited, but where is the proof in the pudding? Am I the only person on this site that needs evidence to back an argument? If I was Kobe's manager or mistress, I would be too rich to be wasting time on this website. And yes, if you let a personal beef prevent you from recognizing talent, you are a hater.
posted by yay-yo at 05:03 PM on May 09, 2007
From the Urban dictionary: 1. hater A person that simply cannot be happy for another person's success. So rather than be happy they make a point of exposing a flaw in that person.
posted by yay-yo at 05:07 PM on May 09, 2007
Did you even read the comments where others acknowledged that Kobe is indeed an amazing player. Or did you just focus on the fact that they don't believe he is the greatest player on the planet.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 05:33 PM on May 09, 2007
Did you even read the comments where others acknowledged that Kobe is indeed an amazing player. Or did you just focus on the fact that they don't believe he is the greatest player on the planet. Did you read my last post? I agree to disagree. Simple as that. I understand I can't change your opinion and you won't change mine. Some people did agree that Kobe is a great player, and then go on to say how he is an asshole and all of that bullshit that has no basis in reality. He is a nice guy, who is ultra-competitive. NOBODY wants to win more than he does and he proves it with his play EVERY night. He scores 30+ppg against double and triple teams and routinely guards the other teams best offensive player. If Kobe was on the Pistons, you would feel the same way I do.
posted by yay-yo at 06:20 PM on May 09, 2007
Can the mavs come back? I think not...