04/20/24
November 26, 2005
Splash: Remember the Blue Jays? The team that spent the past five years cutting costs and shedding contracts? The team that didn't care to pay for players like Carlos Delgado and Chris Carpenter? Well, they're on the verge of signing B.J. Ryan, and it's rumoured to be the largest contract ever given to a relief pitcher.
posted by DrJohnEvans to baseball at 09:37 AM - 30 comments
I don't get it either. They're not all that far from being a genuine contender, but this isn't exactly the last piece of the puzzle or anything.
posted by chicobangs at 11:57 AM on November 26, 2005
I think the most popular argument at the moment paints this as setting the table for other moves. Making an early splash like this gets people's attention, shows that the team is willing to commit financially, and maybe makes it easier to pick up an A.J. Burnett or a Brian Giles. But is it smart? I don't know.
posted by DrJohnEvans at 12:13 PM on November 26, 2005
The team that didn't care to pay for players like Carlos Delgado and Chris Carpenter? To be fair, Rogers only upped their budget severely in the last year. They weren't in a position to sign either, as much as hindsight might be brilliant. This seems excessive, considering they could bid at Wagner for less time.
posted by dfleming at 01:26 PM on November 26, 2005
They can also move Batista to the rotation again or trade him, either giving them a very good #5 starter or another bad, perhaps. He's a solid 160-180 inning 4.00 ERA type, which would fit a lot of teams needs in a pitching starved offseason. So, essentially, they could get two players with one move, even if the money is a little wacky.
posted by dfleming at 01:28 PM on November 26, 2005
bad = bat.
posted by dfleming at 01:29 PM on November 26, 2005
To be fair, Rogers only upped their budget severely in the last year. Yeah, and what happened with Carpenter/Delgado/Stewart/Escobar/etc. was Ricciardi trying to cleanse the team of the Gord Ash era. I understand the plan in place, but I figured the money itself was notable enough to make some fuss over. :)
posted by DrJohnEvans at 01:33 PM on November 26, 2005
The money/length is pretty wacky but if I'm a Toronto fan (hey wait, I am!), it's sort of nice to know that they finally have a real closer. I might think otherwise if this move doesn't help Toronto land AJ or Giles or whoever else they are going after. A closer is nice but the bullpen is probably the area that they needed the least help in.
posted by panoptican at 02:18 PM on November 26, 2005
Gosh that sounds like a pretty huge investment in a closer. I'm not a Toronto fan so could those who are tell me what areas of this team needed the most improvement. If their bullpen was decent then i think this is an insane signing.
posted by Fade222 at 02:54 PM on November 26, 2005
First and foremost, they need some offense. I'm pretty sure it's a bad thing when Shea Hillenbrand is your best offensive player. Nice player for sure, but I think you need at least one guy who'll hit over .800 on the OPS scale. Ideally, they'd get that offense in the form of a first baseman or a corner outfielder. They could use some starting pitching too, but then, everyone could. A solid number two behind Doc would really be lovely tough.
posted by panoptican at 05:25 PM on November 26, 2005
Ken Rosenthal, on the other hand, thinks the deal is nuts. But mostly because of the ramifications it will have on the free agent market for other players and teams.
posted by panoptican at 06:06 PM on November 26, 2005
Why do I think that paying $9 million a year to a reliever isn't going to vault the Blue Jays past the Yankees and the Red Sox. They'd be a lot better served spending that money on someone who can better affect games.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 08:40 PM on November 26, 2005
And to be fair about passing on Carpenter, he was coming off major surgery to his arm at the time. If it was the Yankees or Red Sox or Mets or Dodgers, they could afford paying him a big salary to see if his arm healed properly. Passing on Delgado is properly explained by dfleming. I think it's too much money for a reliever (and too long a time period), but Ryan has been solid for the past two years. He'll be 34 in the final year of his contract, so he won't necessarily be too old. Wagner will be 34 next season, so I can see why they didn't invest in a long term deal for him. The conspiracy theory idea is that Riccardi is deliberately starting high on the first reliever, hoping all the other teams will have to pay too much for lesser quality pitchers. It's okay to overpay for the high quality players. It's deadly to overpay for the mid- to low quality players.
posted by grum@work at 09:43 PM on November 26, 2005
Of course that begs the question, is BJ a high quality player? He's played high quality ball for the past two years but last year was his first as a closer and before it, he was just a good setup man (and I think it's pretty safe to say that good setup men are a dime a dozen... they generally come out of nowhere). I happen to think he'll turn out to be a good closer, but it is a huge risk that the Jays are taking on a commodity that isn't exactly proven.
posted by panoptican at 10:39 PM on November 26, 2005
I think were are entering a period where the Yankees and Red Sox are not going to be able to just roll over everybody else in their division. Toronto is going to be able to cycle in several good years under the new ownership. Look for Tampa to start spending some money to bring in player to go along with their hot young talent. The divison was really competitive this year--I look for it to be tougher next year! Bj Ryan is a good yong stopper. whetther he is worth the money is yet to be seen. Sometimes guys like Ryan implode when given the big money for closing.
posted by daddisamm at 11:17 PM on November 26, 2005
It'd be nice if there was some balance in the AL East. Very nice actually. But unless Toronto addresses some other areas with the uh, gusto, they addressed the closer issue, they're going to end up in third again.
posted by jerseygirl at 08:06 AM on November 27, 2005
Toronto was nowhere without Ryan, they'll go no where with him. Ryan is just another MLB player stuffing cash into his pocket while he can. Doesn't anybody get it? Do you all think talented free agents will now "flock" to Toronto because Ryan signed? Get real.
posted by OldSchoolBall at 08:08 AM on November 27, 2005
If he really wanted to get to the Series, he would have signed with the Mets, White Sox, or just stayed with the Orioles great young staff under Leo Mazzone. One or two key acquisitions has the Orioles back in it while the Yankees fade.
posted by OldSchoolBall at 08:10 AM on November 27, 2005
Ryan must have wanted to go to a team where he could win now. Uh-huh. Doesn't make any sense for Ryan OR the Blue Jays. Maybe he just wants to have a Palmiero career: Make lots of money and don't bother with that unnecessary anxiety of ever being in a pennant race.
posted by dyams at 08:36 AM on November 27, 2005
One or two key acquisitions has the Orioles back in it while the Yankees fade. All of a sudden the Yankees are fading? In November? I like your optimism, OldSchool. Best wishes to the Orioles.
posted by dyams at 08:40 AM on November 27, 2005
If he really wanted to get to the Series, he would have signed with the Mets, White Sox, or just stayed with the Orioles great young staff under Leo Mazzone. One or two key acquisitions has the Orioles back in it while the Yankees fade. The Mets? Serious? How many people have signed there the past, oh, Vaughn years, thinking that? The White Sox are going to hinge on how well Thome bounces back, as it's likely they're not getting Konerko back too if they're keeping their salary intact. They'll also need repeat years from Contreras and Garland, and for one of their closers to hold up next year. Jenks seems VERY Billy Koch-esque. The Orioles are further back from the Jays, in the fact they're older, have worse pitching and now a below average closer. Tejada is a fantastic building block, but the Sosa/Palmeiro/Ponson experiments have hurt that team in building. The Jays need a big bat and a second starter and they're going to be pennant hunting. Plus, they've got a lot of tradable parts for a stretch run. They've got fewer rotation holes than Boston or New York do at the moment. Burnett's signing will be huge on this front. This isn't the 92/93 Jays, but they had a core team built around a couple of great trades and free agent acquisitions too. It's not that far off.
posted by dfleming at 10:01 AM on November 27, 2005
Did I miss where the Orioles management signed a crane? One large enough to be capable to pull their collective heads out of their collective asses?
posted by yerfatma at 10:06 AM on November 27, 2005
Hey Vertfartma, add a comment instead of trying to be funny. All of baseball should pull their heads out of their collective asses and not sign shitheads like Ryan to stupid contracts so we pay $14.25 for a hot dog at the good ole ball game.Toronto will just burn him out for sure - 98mph, 96mph, 92mph, 89mph, then traded or released, so it goes, except for the $14.25 hotdogs.
posted by OldSchoolBall at 11:11 AM on November 27, 2005
GIVE STEROIDS A CHANCE. I SAY KEEP STEROID USE. I want to see Barry Bonds crush one 'across' the bay. I want to see Tejada hit a ball so hard out of Camden Yards that he hits Frank Robinson in Washington when he's making a pitching change. I want Sheffield to line to Third so hard that the ball embeds itself into the face of Melvin Mora before he can even react......Now that's entertainment!
posted by OldSchoolBall at 11:20 AM on November 27, 2005
not sign shitheads like Ryan to stupid contracts so we pay $14.25 for a hot dog at the good ole ball game. Contract signings have absolutely nothing to do with hot dog prices (or ticket prices). It's strictly a supply-and-demand computation.
posted by grum@work at 11:34 AM on November 27, 2005
Hey Vertfartma Ooh burn. He called you asseous gasses.
posted by jerseygirl at 01:50 PM on November 27, 2005
Paying big money to closers is bad business. Not only are good set-up men a dime a dozen, but most teams could grab a good-enough closer off the waiver wire. Obviously, a proven and consistent relief pitcher is worth some cash, but never 9mil a year.
posted by rocketman at 02:50 PM on November 27, 2005
Toronto was nowhere without Ryan... You gotta admit, it is pretty hard to be 'somewhere' when you are in the same division as the Yankees and Red Sox. They've been a .500 ish ballclub for the last 6 or 7 years but finished third in the divison every year since 1998 (except for 2004).
posted by gspm at 03:34 PM on November 27, 2005
add a comment instead of trying to be funny. All of baseball should pull their heads out of their collective asses and not sign shitheads like Ryan to stupid contracts so we pay $14.25 for a hot dog at the good ole ball game. A. Suck it. B. It was a comment: the Orioles have been an also-ran joke under the Angelos' "Sign the 1987 All-Star Team" program. Is there any reason to think that's changed given no decent, established GM will sign on because they don't want to be second-guessed by Peter et fils? C. Add a comment instead of being ignorant: you're not paying $14.25 for a hot dog because of player salaries, you're paying $14.25 for a hot dog because that's where Aramark or whomever thinks the market for hot dogs at ball games in Balmer or wherever clears. If the Orioles players all started playing for free, do you think ticket or hot dog prices would drop?
posted by yerfatma at 05:18 PM on November 27, 2005
They've been a .500 ish ballclub for the last 6 or 7 years but finished third in the divison every year since 1998 (except for 2004). 2004: "In Which Everybody but Kerry Ligtenberg Gets Injured"
posted by DrJohnEvans at 09:54 PM on November 27, 2005
This makes zero sense to me.