12/18/24
June 01, 2002
It was over before it started.: Are the Wings that good? Was Roy that bad? Do the Canes have a avalanche's chance in hell?
What a ridiculous game, they should have pulled Roy after the third goal. Carolina is probably going to get steamrolled. How does Detroit's ownership have enough revenue to pay for so many stars? Mike Illitch spends a ridiculous amount of money on bringing stars in.
posted by insomnyuk at 11:11 AM on June 01, 2002
Carolina will take the cup in 6.
posted by corpse at 12:48 PM on June 01, 2002
I hope you're right corpse, I've got $10 riding on it :) The only way Carolina will have a chance is to win Game 1, come out and surprise Detroit. They have a fairly suffocating defensive style, and Irbe has frustrated the Red Wings before (1994 playoffs, Round 1 with the San Jose Sharks). They have some solid offensive players, including O'Neill, Francis, Battaglia, et al. But the best chance they have against Detroit is taking as many games as possible into overtime. The Red Wings, on more than one occassion, have really struggled this playoff season in OT. There are four reasons Carolina is so strong in OT: 1) Rod Brindamour wins faceoffs 2) Ron Francis makes great passes 3) Arturs Irbe 4) No one on their team is afraid to shoot. If they can't win in Detroit, though, they will be steamrolled. 4 and out.
posted by insomnyuk at 01:37 PM on June 01, 2002
corpse, you're dreaming. Carolina isn't a pushover, but they don't stand a chance against the Wings(although I seem to remember saying this about the Devils back in 95). The Wings aren't letting up now, the momentum from last night's game is going to huge. Irbe is really hot right now, but he's not that good, and now he's had some time off to cool down. Carolina had trouble putting away a severely injured Leafs team, what chance do they honestly have of dealing with a healthy Red Wings? As far as Detroit's payroll, players deferred parts of their salary to get Robataille and Hull. That's how bad they want it. Even still though, they had to get this far just to break even.
posted by tj at 07:02 PM on June 01, 2002
I'm picking Detroit in 5, but I hope I'm wrong. At the very least I hope they take it to 6, cause my sister has tix to that game. In order to make this interesting, and I think they can, obviously Irbe needs to stand on his head, they need to keep getting goals from odd places (Wallin? He's not even supposed to be dressing!), and the BBC line needs to score some damn goals like the Montreal series. At least ONeill turned it on when the BBC got shut off. Basically all 3 of their big lines need to go out and hit and cycle and hit to tire out the wings, then obviously get shots with lots of men in front. Otherwise Hasek's going to stop everything he sees, and if they aren't keeping the puck deep, there'll be 3-on-1(and 2)s on Irbe and even if he does act superhuman, he's not going to stop all those Red Wing snipers. Ward compared it to Patriots-Rams... except the Patriots only needed to win once. It's a pretty tall order for the Canes, but Insomnyuk is right. If they can come out and take maybe a 2-2 game into OT and pull it out, they can do it. And I really hope they do, cause I might get to drink from the cup in a few months :)
posted by Bernreuther at 07:43 PM on June 01, 2002
As to the revenue issue, I am pretty sure the Wings are the highest-revenue team in hockey and probably end up covering expenses (and making money) considering: 1) They sell out every home game, 2) More play-off games = more money, and 3) They sell more licensed merchandise than any other team. As to the players they have picked up, it should be noted that Detroit did not necessarily outspend other teams when it came to individual players. While other teams made competitive offers in terms of money, Hasek, Hull, Robitaille, et al. in part chose Detroit because they were looking at who had the best chances of winning the cup. That said, no other team would have been financially able to add all these stars together -- a team like the Blues, for instance, tried to get Hasek but never could have signed the other two. So basically the Wings are the Yankees of hockey, and as long as the salary structure and revenue-sharing remains as it is, they will keep outspending others and you can't really blame them. The interesting issue will be whether they will be able to reload once the older players retire/move on (as the Yankees seem to have done with the retirement of O'Neill and Brosius and letting Tino go) or if they will go through a rebuilding phase of sorts.
posted by holden at 12:48 PM on June 03, 2002
You're right about the revenue holden, in fact, the Red Wings budget is about twice the size of the Hurricane's budget.
posted by insomnyuk at 01:24 PM on June 03, 2002
That's true, but Carolina's budget has shot through the roof with all this winning... they just doled out some hefty bonuses to a lot of guys, since they had so much extra money laying around I guess. The Yankees of hockey? Bah, the Yankees are likeable :) (actually, I kinda like the Wings, just not in this series... The only one I don't like is Hasek... though I'm told Hull is a real jerk too)
posted by Bernreuther at 03:14 PM on June 03, 2002
I think it's poetic that Hull was born in Canada (Belleville, Ont.) but played on Team USA and lost to Team Canada, in the USA.
posted by insomnyuk at 03:21 PM on June 03, 2002
Wow. Carolina is in the finals. I've been making fun of this team all year, claiming that if they were in any other division, they'd never get enough points to even make the playoffs. Boy was I wrong. They haven't really blown me out of the water with their skill, but you can't deny that the guys have some serious drive to win. Without O'Neill and Kapanen performing, they've been able to rely on guys that weren't really getting it done in the regular season. That says something. I certainly don't think they can match up against the Wings in terms of skill, size, speed, playoff experience, defence, offense, coaching, or pretty much any other category, with the possible exception of goaltending, which is a draw. Anyway, I was wrong about the Whalers, or whatever they're calling themselves these days. But I'm getting used to being wrong (see my predictions on BOS-MON, TOR-CAR, or COL-DET). I'm definitely calling this one Detroit in 5, but even if they're swept in this last series, you have to give them some respect.
posted by Samsonov14 at 06:33 PM on June 03, 2002
Also, I'd like to add that the hockey threads here are by far the best discussions on Sportsfilter. Good for us.
posted by Samsonov14 at 06:34 PM on June 03, 2002
I think it's poetic that Hull was born in Canada (Belleville, Ont.) but played on Team USA and lost to Team Canada, in the USA. He has dual citizenship. He wanted to play for Canada a while back (forgot the year) but they snubbed him, so he chose to play for USA ever since. It was like Xmas morning for me seeing Roy get pulled. After the failed statue of liberty pose (I HATE grandstanding and showboating), nothing went right for him, and deservedly so. The only one I don't like is Hasek It was wierd for me to see him a Wing, but I really like the guy. His work ethic is outstanding. Roenick was inches away from signing with Detroit in the offseason...he was actually in a Detroit hotel after eating with the Detroit GM, when he got the offer from Philly, take it or leave it, and he had to decide right there. The reason he chose to go with it was because of Osgood's lack of work ethic (this was before the Hasek trade). Article was in the Free Press a while back, can't find it. Hasek has been great. I could care less if he is a jerk or not, but I have never seen anything from him other than joking around. Hull is outspoken, and sometimes I wish he would shut up, but as long as he scores, he can say whatever the hell he wants. People make the case that the Wings are trying to buy the cup, but holden's statement is right on the money. Hasek makes $8 million in Detroit, and was offered $9 million by St. Louis. He cited the tradition of hockey in Detroit that drew him, as well as the Cup prospects. FWIW, Detroit still has a large base of drafted players (Holmstrom, Yzerman, Fedorov, Lidstrom, Dandenault, Datsyuk, Fischer, to name a few...) that rivals most teams. I fail to remember anyone crying about the Avs doing that, even though they have made significant moves every year (Fleury, Borque, Blake, Kasparitis). There are four reasons Carolina is so strong in OT: 1) Rod Brindamour wins faceoffs 2) Ron Francis makes great passes 3) Arturs Irbe 4) No one on their team is afraid to shoot. True enough. But you need to also consider the opposition each team has had. Colorado has some of the best finishers in the NHL in Drury and Forsberg. And, 1) Yzerman wins faceoffs 2) Fedorov and Larionov and Hull make great passes 3) Dominik Hasek and 4) Detroit's firepower. Thier third and fourth lines match those of most teams' first line and second line. Mike Illitch spends a ridiculous amount of money on bringing stars in. True enough, but the team needed to make the Western Conference finals just to break even this year. Someone mentioned players deferring salary to get Hull here (it was Yzerman, Lidstrom, and Chelios, and possibly Shanahan). I think that speaks volumes as to what is important to the team and players, as well as the fact that most Wings could make loads more by testing free agency. Shanahan had the choice to do so a few years ago, and took considerably less than market value to stay on the roster. Detroit in 4 or 5. Though I wish it was an Original Six matchup, the Canes have been great this playoff year, and I am glad to see them get some respect, as well as to see Toronto lose.
posted by adampsyche at 12:30 PM on June 04, 2002
ok, why are we talking about how good the canes are in OT? you have to tie the game up first. And Irbe hasn't faced a team with this much firepower in the playoffs. Although it is nice to see Hartford in the finals.
posted by tj at 01:31 PM on June 04, 2002
I agree with adampsyche's comment about Hasek having a great work ethic and I myself have never had a problem with him (of course, I am a Michigan native and Wings fan). But I think the thing that makes some people dislike him is his theatrics in (or out of) net, pulling the classic soccer player "I've been shot!" routine at even the most minimal contact. It used to be that this (diving) was a big knock on European players in general, but I haven't heard/read about it a lot lately (although I haven't seen any Don Cherry commentary in a long time). That said, I think Dom's flopping has become more minimal as the playoffs have gone on. There definitely hasn't been anything on the level of what he did when Tkachuk nudged him at the end of Game 1 in the Blues series since that game. On another note, an interesting aspect with the Wings picking up some of these marquee players over the years is that they have ended up with two players I grew up hating -- Chelios and Hull, who both played the bulk of their careers with major Wings rivals. Those two guys were probably the most hated players (in Detroit) on the Hawks and Blues. But now of course all us Wings fans think they're great -- Chelios just plays hard but never dirty and Hull is charming in his loquaciousness. Now if we could only pick up that Forsberg prick. There are limits, however -- if the Wings were to sign Claude Lemieux I think a drastic realignment of my allegiances would be necessary.
posted by holden at 03:43 PM on June 04, 2002
I've heard through the grapevine (one of the Red Wings mentioned this to his brother) that Yzerman is done with his career after these playoffs. His knees are absolutely shot (Orr-style) and he couldn't fathom playing another season in this much pain. The gold medal (and then this last Stanley Cup) were the only thing keeping him around this season. So if that's the case, then I'm going to have to swallow my pride (as a Leaf fan) and cheer for Yzerman to get his last cup and join Shanahan and Ken Morrow as the only people to win a Stanley Cup AND Olympic gold medal in the same calendar year. Although I wish it was Cujo doing it instead. grumblegrumblegrumble
posted by grum@work at 04:46 PM on June 04, 2002
Honestly I really admire Hasek and love his style and aggressiveness, I just didn't really like him much as a person, plus he was on Buffalo and I HATE the Sabres (not sure why, since they were the closest thing to a hometown team we had in Oswego, but they were my least favorite team... kinda like the sharks are my least favorite now that I'm out here in the bay area... ) Plus that helmet he wears is ugly. :) Good point, TJ, about tying the game, but you never know. I think the Canes will do a pretty good job of frustrating the wings and keeping them close. If they can get enough bodies in front of hasek, they can take them to OT. I still don't like the idea of "well they can win if they take them to OT" since that's not the best strategy in the world, but they do definitely have a bit of an edge in situations like that... The Canes just need to keep playing with the emotion and intensity they've shown, and hope that Detroit doesn't somehow step up their emotion to overrule that advantage that Carolina has... if Detroit plays as fired up as Carolina does, then the Canes are screwed...
posted by Bernreuther at 04:57 PM on June 04, 2002
god, the Wings played like hell tonight. I guess my point about the canes not being able to tie it up was a crock.
posted by tj at 10:57 PM on June 04, 2002
I always hate it when I'm proved right, at least for a game. The wings will probably come out tougher for game 2. Here's hoping for all you wings fans, but I've got money riding against them, so for now, best wishes to Ron Francis and his noble crew.
posted by insomnyuk at 11:26 PM on June 04, 2002
Actually Yzerman said during these playoffs that he'd be back next season. So if somethine else was said, it's new. I think that if they don't win, he'll have to come back. So keep cheering for the Canes :) That went pretty well... and Carolina's third line had a great game. Hopefully the Wings don't adjust in Game 2...
posted by Bernreuther at 03:18 PM on June 05, 2002
He is supposed to have the same surgery Chelios had a year ago, and now Chris is a Norris Trophy candidate, and should win the sentimental vote (+40 at 40 years old!) If Yzerman comes back, he could be a lot better. He has been ok this series, but this defensive system shit makes me want to go to sleep, the Canes I mean. What a crock, and a bad way to promote the sport on the part of the officials.
posted by adampsyche at 11:23 AM on June 07, 2002
The Avs defense and Roy both looked dead-legged. I'm surprised they made it as far as game 7 against the Wings, who are scary good. Brett Hull a fourth liner? Criminy. How does Detroit's ownership have enough revenue to pay for so many stars?