11/21/24
November 30, 2004
Ty Willingham Gone!!: Do you think a deal is already done with Urban Meyer whose dream job is ND? This is the first time an ND coach has been fired before first contract was up.
Maybe someone versed* in ND football lore can answer this, as I suspected a bit what yerfatma alludes to when I first heard this news. Isn't there still a lot of anger still directed at Holtz from Alumni and Boosters? Or has the hunger for a championship diminished that somewhat? I don't recall the specifics, but didn't Holtz quickly turn the poor team he inherited from Gerry Faust into a national championship by more or less trashing its values and looking the other way with regard to recruiting violations? It seemed like he left there under a cloud of suspicion, or am I not remembering that correctly? Sympathies to Willingham, three years hardly seems long enough to turn a program around, even despite some early success. * Alas, I am not. My old man is an alum, so I only follow ND football when something significant happens.
posted by paolomigli at 02:09 PM on November 30, 2004
I generally believe that you need to give coaches a fair shot. And I think a fair shot would be four full years. That said, 6-5 at Notre Dame is like 2-9 elsewhere and the Insight Bowl isn't exactly a bowl game I've ever even heard of before. Willingham will catch on elsewhere.
posted by 86 at 02:13 PM on November 30, 2004
Cleveland Browns have an opening, as does Ty's previous employer. Did Florida announce a new hire yet?
posted by billsaysthis at 02:50 PM on November 30, 2004
Isn't there still a lot of anger still directed at Holtz from Alumni and Boosters? Or has the hunger for a championship diminished that somewhat? Not among the younger alumni, though he did leave under a cloud. Willingham was seen as someone who would bring integrity back into the program (Davie was never liked), but about half of my friends got weary of Ty this season, and were ready for him to go. I think that Ty got a bum deal, and if the Davie (and late Holtz) regiemes weren't so mediocre, he may have been allowed to ride out the contract. Willingham is also a class act who seemed to understand how to balance academic achievement and on-the-field success (as evidenced by his time at Stanford). However, after eleven years without a bowl win and sixteen years without a National Championship, there was no patience left to give him the benefit of the doubt, even though he was only responsible for the last three years. I'm sorely disappointed, and if Meyer isn't the next coach, then ND could potentially wander the desert for several more years.
posted by avogadro at 02:50 PM on November 30, 2004
there was no patience left to give him the benefit of the doubt Seems so short-sighted. Without decimating their standards, no one is going to come in to Notre Dame and recruit a championship.
posted by yerfatma at 02:56 PM on November 30, 2004
I don't have a lot of sympathy for ND, who hired Willingham with a wave of goodwill despite the hamhanded way he wound up in the fold. This move smacks of not-enough-rope-to-do-it-right. I have no doubt, though, that Willingham will have more than one job offer, and if he wound up coaching (sure, why not) the Browns, that would be a just and right promotion. His name will certainly come up for everything for a while. (The Dolphins, anyone?)
posted by chicobangs at 03:12 PM on November 30, 2004
I doubt he's going to get any pro calls; Dennis Erickson and Butch Davis were both demonstrably more successful in college than Willingham was and neither are exactly burning it up in the pro ranks right now. It takes a rare bird to make that jump successfully- Jimmy Johnson is the only one I can think of offhand. That out of the way... the expectations at ND are completely out of wack with the reality that their recruiting situation puts them in. They are at a school in a cold state, in a city in the middle of nowhere, whose academic reputation is solid enough to scare off low-end kids but not high enough to let it win recruiting battles based solely on academics. And the older alums have plenty of memory of ND glory- but the kids the next ND coach will recruit will never have seen a ND team better than 9-3. But... this was all true when Willingham took the job, too. So I can't say he was screwed, exactly- he had to know this was a very distinct possibility. UF will also have ridiculously high expectations and won't pick up someone percieved to be 'on the rebound.' So I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him return to Stanford and play out a long career there.
posted by tieguy at 05:16 PM on November 30, 2004
Assistant for Denny Green again is also in the rumor milll here in the desert. No clue on the veracity of that one.
posted by pivo at 05:55 PM on November 30, 2004
I'm sorely disappointed, and if Meyer isn't the next coach, then ND could potentially wander the desert for several more years. Why would Meyer make such a difference over quite a few good alternatives?
posted by billsaysthis at 06:57 PM on November 30, 2004
I dont think ND gave him enough time. I think they were more concerned about the bad press that ND is getting. Lets face it, many in the Sports media have been blasting ND and Willingham for a long time. Anybody that they bring in to replace Willingham will be facing the same bad press and basically will be starting all over again!
posted by daddisamm at 01:08 AM on December 01, 2004
The Daily Quickie pretty much summarizes ND's situation.
posted by tieguy at 09:32 AM on December 01, 2004
My aunt (Liz Miller) used to be the coach of ND women's softball when Lou Holtz was there. She knew Lou very well while he was at ND. I used to ask her all the time why Lou left. She said it was because Lou thought ND would not be able to remain competitive unless the University relaxed their academic standards for athletes. Lou left because he didn't feel he could recruit big-time prospects while being forced to have top academic scores. I think a lot of the alumni understand this and they blame the University more than Lou. The University decided that education was more important than football, which many may agree with, but the ND Football program has suffered ever since, and they will continue to do so. You don't see any elite caliber academic schools competing for a national championship in football.
posted by mayerkyl at 10:39 AM on December 01, 2004
There's optimistic talk in Seattle that the Huskies are going to go after Willingham hard. Apparently they tried to talk to him a few weeks ago. Dunno how much truth to that there is. If they signed him it would be like the day they signed Neuheisel...SPLASH!
posted by vito90 at 11:46 AM on December 01, 2004
You don't see any elite caliber academic schools competing for a national championship in football. That is true, but when it happens, it's hard not to get behind them. For example, the year that Gary Barnett's Northwestern Wildcats came within a whisker of having an undefeated regular season was one of the most exciting things I can remember in college football... and believe me, as a UChicago grad that says a lot (denigrating NU academic standards is sport in Hyde Park). Notre Dame does have an interesting dilemma, they'll pretty much have to sell out the one thing that has made them special in order to compete at the levels they used to in the 40s, 50s, 60s and 70s.... or else, they'll go the way of Army and Navy.
posted by paolomigli at 12:35 PM on December 01, 2004
Mark Purdy went right for the jugular in his column today: Race was certainly factor in stunning Irish firing, and I can't see where he's wrong. This is pretty sad for 2004 America. And as for elite caliber schools and footbal, Cal is #4 and would be undefeated except for a loss to #1 USC by four points. So that means there's an extra level of difficulty but by no means is it impossible. And what about basketball? Duke, North Carolina, Stanford, and, again, Cal, those are all top schools with great programs.
posted by billsaysthis at 12:40 PM on December 01, 2004
The only race that was a factor in Willingham's firing was against time. ND wanted a shot at Meyer before Florida locked him up. Way to get your predicatable anti-American sports jab in there though, billy. I was wondering when it was coming, you had me worried for a bit there. What is ND academically known for, really? Is a degree from ND (athletics aside) really that much better than one from Michigan or Ohio State? I don't see it. Many of the top schools mentioned and others will and do have separate standards of admission for athletes, acknowleged or not. Very noticeable at major basketball schools and probably as prevalent in football. Only ones that don't are the Ivy League, as they don't really do athletic scholarships. Like the old saw for a project: It can be done cheap, fast, or correct: pick two. Notre Dame needs to pick two out of academic standards for football, staying independent, and being a football power. They can no longer have all three. Meyer is a good coach, but in the current situation in South Bend and the NCAA, I don't think anyone can win there. Knute Rockne could be reincarnated and would still go 6-5, 7-4.
posted by pivo at 01:20 PM on December 01, 2004
What is ND academically known for, really? Is a degree from ND (athletics aside) really that much better than one from Michigan or Ohio State? I don't see it. You are correct that Notre Dame can't have it all and that if they don't relax academic standards for football players they will continue to struggle regardless of their coach. But there certainly is a difference between ND and Big 10 schools. Notre Dame is a private school, which makes it far more exclusive and costly than any public institution such as the ones listed here. ND admits less than 2,000 students per year, as opposed to the mass admissions at Big 10 schools. Furthermore, Notre Dame admits less than 30% of all people who apply to attend. Michigan and Ohio State are to Notre Dame as Wal-Mart is to Neiman Marcus, academically speaking. I don't say this because I love ND, in fact I graduated from Michigan State, which on this scale wood be the Goodwill store, and my degree is working just fine for me, but I think ND is in a whole different league than any big 10 school, Northwestern included.
posted by mayerkyl at 01:47 PM on December 01, 2004
What is ND academically known for, really? Is a degree from ND (athletics aside) really that much better than one from Michigan or Ohio State? Well, I'm a little biased here, but it is. ND has been consistently in the U.S. News & World Report Top 20 Universities, and considering that its concentration is still on teaching undergraduates, it can be argued that a four-year degree is one of the very best in the country (in the same league with the Dukes, Stanfords, and all but the best Ivies). It's probably one of the few universities that still emphasizes a liberal arts background, with a stringent First Year of Studies Program that every student must pass. ND grads, from business majors to engineers to english majors tend (on average, though you can always find the exception) to be more well-rounded than their peers from other universities. This however is not a knock against my BigTen friends who have all recieved excellent educations themselves. But that's beside the point. A day later, I'm still sick over this. There are a lot of alumni who would rather have a pretty good (though not necessarily consistently above .500) football team whose student-athletes are on the same academic level with the rest of the student body, but they are out-shouted by older (read: wealthier) alumni that were in school when ND was The Powerhouse, though the academic standards weren't up-to-snuff.
posted by avogadro at 01:51 PM on December 01, 2004
Sorry, forgot to respond to bill: Why would Meyer make such a difference over quite a few good alternatives? I don't really see the other alternatives bringing the same package of football-smarts and integrity that Meyer does. I also think that Meyer has a higher ceiling than the other potential candidates presently available. Keep in mind that the pool of candidates is not as deep as some would think; when Davie was fired, it became apparent that some of the best candidates (Gruden, for example) were turned off by the ND pressure cooker.
posted by avogadro at 01:55 PM on December 01, 2004
billsaythis: basketball teams are a totally different beast than football teams. Duke has to find 1-2 kids across the entire country who can play solid ball and get through class, and 1 decently academically minded superstar every 1-2 years. In college football, you need 20 every year. That's a lot harder. And I wouldn't really cite Cal as in the same football class exactly with ND or Duke; it's basically in the same class academically but it also enrolls more than twice as many undergrads as Duke and 4-5 times as many as ND. Even if the quality of the faculty is identical or superior at Cal, larger schools always have an easier time squeezing in more 'student-athletes' who are held to lower standards both at admission time and during class.
posted by tieguy at 02:15 PM on December 01, 2004
I still don't buy more expensive and private = better, but we'll leave it at that ;) Not a personal slight on any ND grads but that "we're Notre Dame" arrogance is what is dooming their football program to a painful death. They should have joined a conference back when they had a chance, because now it wouldn't benefit them near as much. The Big East could/will lose it's BCS status and they are lower middle of the pack if put in a Big-10 schedule. Good point on the pool availability avogadro. The pundits seem to think ND can get any coach they want and folks are lining up to take the job. ND football is a rapidly sinking ship and I think most of the coaches realizethey want no part of that. Who would want to be forced to win in a no-win situation. This is why they are being so hasty in a grab for Meyer. Alumni would have been calling for Willingham's head next year (if not sooner) and Meyer is a good coach with a ton of upside who actually wants to be at ND. Willingham should be happy too. My money would be on him landing at Washington. That gets him back in the West (he likes it) with a chance to bring a flagging program back to glory. A much easier task at UW than ND. And face it, where would you rather live Seattle or South Bend :)
posted by pivo at 02:18 PM on December 01, 2004
I still don't buy more expensive and private = better, but we'll leave it at that ;) I think some of it is the Catholic nature of the school too. Whatever the alumni or coaches may think, sports should always be a recreation, not a focus. ND would be much better off in a conference now, but when they purposefully cut themselves off from that option (late '80s), they did it because they were powerful enough that it made sense.
posted by yerfatma at 03:48 PM on December 01, 2004
Pivo, way to throw in the ad hominem attack, very cool! Note that I didn't write the linked article and am hardly the only person to hold the perception that Willingham's color was a factor; the recently fired coach of San Jose State (Fritz Hill, another man of color) has done extensive studies for his Ph on the topic and the blunt truth is that with TW and Hill fired in the last week, there are only two Div 1-A football teams with black men at the top. Further I am not biased against American sports though I don't enjoy some of the more popular ones especially baseball.
posted by billsaysthis at 04:09 PM on December 01, 2004
That is awful. I'm saying this as a die-hard ND fan. What possible justification/ replacement could there be? I really liked Willingham; doesn't Stanford's recent performance suggest he had some ability? Maybe the whole SC-Clemson fight and Stanford coaching change is an Illuminait-level conspiracy to bring back the Corpse of Lou Holtz. This time it's decrepit!