11/05/24
April 26, 2002
Broken nose, broken cheekbone and a concussion.: Richard Zednik suffers this at the "hands" of Kyle McLaren as a result of a vicious clothesline/elbow when the game was out of hand. The Montreal coach Michel Therrien has decided to take the low road and said that if the Bruins are targetting his stars, "We'll go after theirs."
What used to be the best playoff series on TV has suddenly turned very ugly. And I have a feeling that it's going to get worse before it gets better.
Grum good call on the Therrien idea. I like that. But with the McLaren vs Domi comparison I think you're a bit off. McLaren hit the guy during play, in the flow of the game while Domi's hit came well away from the puck with nothing in mind, but intent to injure. I know the McLaren hit was nasty, but it looked to me like he missed his hip check on a nice move by Zednik and got caught. In a split second he swings his arm around and hits the guy in the face. On the other hand, Domi elbowed a guy in the chin a dozen seconds after the puck had left that part of the ice. They don't go together. Additionally, I don't know what his permanent record looks like, but McLaren certainly doesn't have a history of dirty play. I'll check to see if he's been suspended, but I don't recall him ever earning a reputation as a dirty player. That all said, McLaren needs to be shelved for a while. I think 8-10 games is sufficient. And with him gone, that could very well be "for the rest of the playoffs" for the Bruins. In other news, Zednik was flying, hitting, scoring... doing everything! It's a shame he's out of the series/playoffs and we won't be able to watch him for a while. Glad he's ok though.
posted by 86 at 07:36 AM on April 26, 2002
Just re-read the original post and noted the "gone the rest of the series and 8 games". That sounds good to me, but wasn't Domi given the "rest of the playoffs" and 8 games? Whatever the case, I think around 8 games sounds about right.
posted by 86 at 07:41 AM on April 26, 2002
Bruins management, of course, is saying it was a clean hit. Even as a Bruins supporter I can't agree with that. It was a terrible accident, but it was just that - an accident. As 86 points out, McLaren's never had a suspension before. And the Domi comparison is completely unfair. Domi went headhunting. McLaren got reckless while trying to take the puck carrier out of the play. This definitely warrants a suspension, but I can't see more than 8 games.
posted by Samsonov14 at 08:45 AM on April 26, 2002
you actually think mcclaren didnt realize the guy he was hitting has 8 points in the series? he knew who he was hitting, and his actions demonstrate he was going to do 'whatever' to stop him. this is the type of shit that angers me about hockey. i love the sport, but there isn't much accountability in the playoffs. even most of the headlines are about the no.1 seed evening series. that isn't the story. mcclaren should be called out. and he definitely should not be allowed to play for the rest of the playoffs. an eye for an eye, thats how hockey is kept under control.
posted by garfield at 08:55 AM on April 26, 2002
[full admission: Bruins fan] The Domi comparison is off-base: remeber he hit someone who wasn't carrying the puck. Watch the hit again, and imagine McLaren never put his arm up but made the same hit. Would it still be dirty? 86 has it right: McLaren was lining him up and Zednik made a nice move that McLaren tried to compensate for unsuccessfully. Therrien came off like an idiot during the post-game press conference, asking why PJ Stock was out on the power play at the end of the game. Ignoring the fact Stock scored a goal last night (1st of the year), Gino Odjick spent a solid minute starting a fight with him (forget about who got the instigator penalty: Odjick was holding a one-way conversation throughout the faceoff, proceed to do the tired old slash-at-the-skate routine and then went to DEFCON 4 with the attempted face wash. It's hockey: no one's innocent 8 games would be a joke. What did he do that deserves 8 games? Stuck his arm up? I wish Don Cherry could see this. If he were here, he'd say, "How do I stype on this thing again?"
posted by yerfatma at 09:12 AM on April 26, 2002
I have to agree with Samsonov. I've seen the replay again and again, and I can't compare it to the Domi hit. The game was already chippy (see verfatma's point about the Odjick fight) and it was getting worse. The amount of damage caused by the hit was certainly a mistake, the hit itself was intentional. I'd say 8 games, tops, and start calling the series way closer than it has up til now.
posted by junior at 09:21 AM on April 26, 2002
[full admission: Leafs fan who hoped the Habs/Bruins series went 7 games to exhaust them, before Sundin got injured and the Leaf playoff hopes disappeared] I'd like to believe it was an "accident", but if you watch the replay slowly, you'll see that he stuck both his arms and his stick out at head level. That's reckless and should be punished. As for it being a "first offence", I wonder if everyone in Boston would be so forgiving if, in the final minutes of a game 7 blowout win for Boston, Yannick Perrault were to "accidentally" catch Samsonov with an elbow in the face and knock him out. Personally, I've never felt that "first offence" was an excuse for leniency. It's not like they didn't know it was illegal, or that they hadn't seen anyone else get suspended for something similar. And when the hell has a clothesline maneuver been a "legal hit"? The Boston management just makes themselves look silly with that statement. As for my comparison to the Domi incident: while the intent/stupidity of the play was worse, the damage done (to the player) was not even close. I'm still sticking to "rest of series + 8 more games". Whew. I sure had a lot to say about this. Imagine if it had been in the Leafs/Islander series...
posted by grum@work at 09:25 AM on April 26, 2002
Here's additional coverage from Slam Sports in Canada. From the descriptions, this hit reminds me more of Claude Lemiuex's hit on Kris Draper in 1996 than it does the Domi hit. Lemiuex slammed Draper into the edge of the boards with reckless disregard for the injury it might cause and was suspended for two games, if I recall correctly.
posted by rcade at 11:30 AM on April 26, 2002
Ok, I guess my problem is this: Kyle McLaren the player doesn't remind me of Lemieux or Domi. He's a stay-at-home defenseman in the mold of an Adam Foote without a history of nastiness or gooning it up. As for the Lemieux hit comparison, that wasn't "reckless disregard" in my mind. Lemieux ran Draper into the divider on purpose. McLaren fully intended to lay a hard hit on their star player (I don't get why "he knew who he was hitting" is important: is he supposed to duck hits against stars or guys on potential breakaways?); he wound up putting his arm up after he got beat, resulting in an illegal hit. To me, there's a world of difference between that and running Kris Draper face-first into the glass. Why not compare it to the McSorley-Brashear incident too? Then we could show that hot video for the zillionth time.
posted by yerfatma at 12:08 PM on April 26, 2002
I agree yerfatma. It definitely doesn't merit a suspension for the rest of the playoffs. Intent should factor into the punishment - like the difference between manslaughter and murder. Sadly, it doesn't look like the general public agrees with us. And before anyone (correctly) mentions that the readers of USA today aren't exactly "the general public, there are other polls that have found similar results (on the lower left).
posted by Samsonov14 at 01:12 PM on April 26, 2002
Cheap shots? Nothing new for the Bruins....
posted by skwm at 01:42 PM on April 26, 2002
Yes. Exactly. Ten seconds of Marty McSorley's less-than-one full season is representative of the Bruins general team vision. Let's not forget Eddie Shore nearly killing Ace Bailey back in the '20s. Personally, I'm worried about the Bruins playing St. Louis in the finals. Given what Wayne Maki did back in an exhibition game in the '70s, someone would definitely die.
posted by yerfatma at 02:07 PM on April 26, 2002
Accident? ACCIDENT??? Are you kidding me? This is unquestionably a dirty hit, an intent to injure. There was almost no body contact whatsoever, it was pure elbow-on-head. The guy should be suspended a la Domi, first offence or not. One of the dirtiest hits I've seen in a long time. Series plus 8 games.
posted by Succa at 02:39 PM on April 26, 2002
it was pure elbow-on-head If you ignore the fact that he clotheslined him. Wrong side of the elbow.
posted by yerfatma at 02:42 PM on April 26, 2002
Actually yerfatma, you can clothesline someone with the back of your arm instead of the front of your arm (like they do in wrestling). The "back-arm clothesline" is the one that Schwartzennegger (sp?) does in the Terminator movies. You swing your arm out and catch them as they run/ride/skate past you from behind to in front of you. In this case, McLaren did clothesline him with the back part of the arm and his elbow caught him square in the nose/cheek. Just watch the replay again and you'll see what I mean.
posted by grum@work at 02:55 PM on April 26, 2002
My bad. Just went back and looked again. I had it backwards in my head.
posted by yerfatma at 02:58 PM on April 26, 2002
Watch McLaren as he hits Zednik. McLaren has his back to him, pretty obviously tries to take Zednik's body out of the play, and Zednik starts to blow by him. McLaren, panicked, throws his arm up to catch him as he skates past. Ill-advised, yeah, but definitely not an intentional elbow to the head. Aside from the fact that it's not McLaren's MO, McLaren couldn't even see Zednik clearly from the position he was in. An intentional backhand reverse clothesline to the bridge of the nose? I'm not denying McLaren's skills here, but he's no Terminator. I wish we could find a replay of the hit somewhere on the web.
posted by Samsonov14 at 03:04 PM on April 26, 2002
Lemieux ran Draper into the divider on purpose. I watched that hit numerous times. The reason for the severity of the injury was because Draper caught the edge of the boards. If you watch it in real time, it's clear that Lemieux was reckless in how he slammed into him and that he intended to slam him into the boards violently. However, there's no way he could've intentionally planned to bounce Draper's head off the edge, which is what made the injury so severe. Things were moving way too fast.
posted by rcade at 03:06 PM on April 26, 2002
I wish we could find a replay of the hit somewhere on the web.
posted by hootch at 04:41 PM on April 26, 2002
I DO think it's comparable to the Domi hit, regardless of whether it was during play or not. I didn't realize that when you hit the puck carrier with a cheap shot, that it's "less serious" than if you hit someone without it. You can't tell me that McLaren did NOT know that Zednik was the best player on the ice that day, you can't tell me that he didn't know that he taunted Dafoe after he scored, and, as such, you can't tell me that McLaren didn't have any intent to inflict some physical punishment on him (Zednik had a big target on his head in the third period -- Bruins were hitting him often -- so it's no coincidence that it was Zednik that got knocked out.) Sure, I don't think that he intended for it to be as severe as it was -- but the fact is, he was wreckless in his attempt to take him out and, as such, deserves to be strongly punished for it. Rest of the series + extra 8 games is fair to me... just as I thought the Domi suspension was fair (despite being a Leafs fan).
posted by mkn at 06:33 PM on April 26, 2002
Okay, there is a much better/cleaner version of the video on this page. Watch the entire video (RM or WMV)! They run the hit from another angle and show it in slow motion. After seeing this, there is absolutely no evidence that McLaren: a) tried to hip check him b) just "reached out" when Zednik went by him The slo-mo from the other angle shows him preparing his elbow/arm by dropping his shoulders down, swinging his arms back and then bringing his arms/stick up into Zednik's face. He has his eyes on him the whole time. Anyone who tries to tell me now, after watching this other angle in slo-mo, that it was "an accident" is just bullshitting themselves. After seeing this video and the new angle, I became quite angry. I can't believe I almost gave McLaren the benefit of the doubt. I'll still stick to my initial punishment, but if they give him more I won't be complaining too hard.
posted by grum@work at 06:57 PM on April 26, 2002
Habs fan here. I'd like to give McLaren the benefit of the doubt, but there was, what, 1:30 left in the game and the B's had a 3 goal lead? The game was over. I don't beleive that McLaren hit him with the intention of breaking his nose and cheekbone, but I don't think it was an accident, either. Like someone said earlier, the Bruins were looking to inflict some punishment on Zednik. I don't blame them, he was playing great. But McLaren should not be let off the hook for an intentional elbow that did that much damage. It's not as pre-meditated and vicious as Domi, I'll admit, but he should be gone for at least 10 games. After all, he just put a player out for the rest of the year with a cheap shot. I just saw Cherry's reaction to it. I'm not a Cherry fan to say the least, but I thik he got it right this time. He "feels bad for" McLaren, but thinks he'll get a hefty suspension, and deservedly so. He also laid the blame on the hard shell of elbow pads. Therrien's outburst was also inexcusible. He should be fined. Also, now every hit on a Bruin is going to be examined for ulterior motives. This series is effectively over.
posted by sauril at 07:51 PM on April 26, 2002
McLaren, panicked, throws his arm up to catch him as he skates past. I didn't see that in the video. He was bringing his arm up to clean Zednik's clock before the collision. As a Stars fan, the move reminds me of some of the questionable hits that Derian Hatcher doles out from time to time. Maybe he didn't intend to knock the guy out, but he clearly wanted to elbow him in the face.
posted by rcade at 10:34 PM on April 26, 2002
I would just like to point out something here: GO SENS GO!
posted by Succa at 12:07 AM on April 27, 2002
So what about the Leaf hits on Jonsson and Peca? There was a lot of debate after the game last night; some call both hits dirty, others say they were both clean, depending on one's team preference I suppose. I'm a Leafs fan and can't help but think they were clean hits. Does someone with less obvious bias have an opinion?
posted by D at 02:04 PM on April 27, 2002
I'm a Leaf fan and I say that the Peca hit was clean (hip on thigh is always legal) and the Jonsson hit was illegal and should get Roberts a game suspension. However, the league is NOT going to add any suspension to Roberts, so that's a moot point. What caused the injury to Jonsson wasn't the hit itself, but the fact that the glass doesn't give at all. I've ranted about that point before. Nevertheless, I still think that Roberts had his arms up in Jonsson's head and that's not acceptable.
posted by grum@work at 02:23 PM on April 27, 2002
ome thing I notice that no one has mentioned is that Zednik had his head down. Dirty or not, the injury had as much to do with how Zednik came in, as the hit itself.
posted by tj at 04:41 PM on April 27, 2002
my unput on the intent of the hit is that I completely doubt that he left the bench for that shift thinking he was going to lay one down on Zednik, and I really doubt that as he was about to make the hit, he thought "oh, I can really injure him here". As a player who has been on the giving and receiving sides of hits like that, I can say that whenever you're on the ice and a player has his head down like that, your eyes light up. Those are the hits that players live for. I have no argument about the fact that it was a dirty hit and he should be suspended. He got his elbow up and that's wrong. But I don't think it was premeditated and I don't think it even compares to the goonery of Domi or Lemieux. Those guys do go out there with the intent to put someone on the ice and take them out of the game. McLaren was going for the high-fives-after-the-game and in-your-face-montreal hit and messed up by overdoing it. I'll allow for the possibility that I'm wrong, but as a player, this is my semi-educated guess at what went on in the mind of another player. (and for the record, Isles and Canes fan here...)
posted by Bernreuther at 05:03 PM on April 27, 2002
Islanders fan here... I definately think Roberts deserved to be taken out of the game and a suspension, neither of which happened. The seamless glass definately contributed to Jonsson's injury, but to me, the replays definately show Roberts forcing Jonsson's head into the glass. The Peca hit, while I'm not very happy with it, was definately cheap ( I think Tucker was going for the knees when he sunk down as he was making contact), it was within the rules of the game. It's unfortunate though.
posted by skwm at 08:15 PM on April 27, 2002
just saw replays of the Isles hits for the first time, since I was forced to miss the game... the Roberts hit was definitely dirty, while the Tucker hit was "merely" cheap, in that he legally was finishing his check, but I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have if it wasn't Peca. I believe him about the ducking down part though, with hits like that the lower the better, or else you run the risk of getting roughed up by a stronger player or just bouncing off him. Hopefully the Isles can rally to come back, like they did back when Turgeon went down...
posted by Bernreuther at 11:05 PM on April 27, 2002
McLaren was dealt a three-game suspension by the NHL, is it sufficient?
posted by 10 at 06:12 PM on April 28, 2002
It'll have to do, I guess. I would have liked to have seen at least another game or two AFTER the series, to show that it isn't just an "even-up" for Montreal losing Zednik for the series.
posted by grum@work at 08:26 PM on April 28, 2002
I agree with you. McLaren woke up Theodore for that last game -- he won for his friend, Zednik -- so I think Kyle will think about this for awhile, even longer if Montreal goes on to win.
posted by 10 at 08:47 PM on April 28, 2002
montreal will be winning the series. tonight in fact. at home. and just to chime in again and correct the B's fans erroneous sight. if mcclaren had left his arm bent, then fine, he got beat and tried to stop him. however, he clearly extends his arm in order to blast zednik in the face. that my friends is a dirty hit, with intent to injure.
posted by garfield at 10:10 AM on April 29, 2002
skwm, as a leafs fan, i hate to do it, but you're right about the roberts hit. double forearm to the back of the neck. definitely not a clean hit. probably should be a suspension. if those forearms would've been in kj's back, clean, but the back of the neck/head....he was trying to hurt him, and hurt him he did. not to jump to something so trivial in comparison to brutal injuries, but has anyone noticed that the leafs have been down one player on their bench in consecutive games? i mean, this is basic stuff that quinn & co. are f-ing up, big time. i get reichel and renberg confused too, being both euro summer acquisitions, but i don't see them personally everyday....this has got to stop. especially with so manyu key injuries....with those two gaffes, im surprised the leafs are still around.
posted by garfield at 01:50 PM on April 29, 2002
Garfield- Hey, thanks for chiming in! I'll definitely admit that McLaren's hit was dirtier than I originally thought. I blame beer for my faulty memory. I still don't think that there was "intent to injure", but that's opinion more than fact, and the only facts are that it was a dirty hit and dirty hits must be punished. Having said that: Roberts- 8 game suspension! Tucker- 8 game suspension! 8 games for everyone! Deciding how long suspensions should be is a lot more fun when it's not a guy on your team. Garfield- 8 game suspension!
posted by Samsonov14 at 03:11 PM on April 29, 2002
There's an excellent article on all of this over at ESPN. From the Newsday article on the same:
Until one of the geniuses at the NHL produces some X-ray machine that can illuminate a man's soul and let us know exactly what players are thinking, the NHL's policy of basing judgment calls on presumptions won't work. Every other league has recognized it's impossible. Intent is not something the NFL bothered to try and discern when it wrote its rule protecting quarterbacks from hits to the head. Intent is not something the NBA figures into the equation on flagrant foul calls. The same goes for baseball and beanball pitches. Once both teams have been warned, if you hit someone, you're gone....and one more thing, how the heck can Colin Campbell go on record as saying that the reason that Roberts wasn't given a match-penalty was that it wasn't clear that Jonnson had a head injury. That's absolutely ridiculous.
"If there's a head injury, you can assess a misconduct," Campbell explained. "In this case, they weren't so sure. It's easy when the player is bleeding ... it's difficult, lots of time, to tell when there's an injury."
posted by skwm at 06:28 PM on April 29, 2002
If the Roberts on Jonsson hit took place in, say, Dallas -- I doubt that Jonsson would have been as injured as he was. The glass at the ACC is notorious for being as solid as concrete, and is probably a high factor for injuries at the ACC (ask Alyn McCaulley). If the Robers hit was worthy of suspension, then there were at least 4 hits equally worthy in game 6 (and one which was already deemed such -- Corson)... only difference is, no one got hurt (except for that high stick on Roberts... no coincidence it was him), thus no one says anything. </leaf fan>
posted by mkn at 10:49 PM on April 29, 2002
Montreal beat Boston 4-2 in the series, too, just in case anyone here thought it'd be the other way around. :-)
posted by Succa at 11:47 AM on April 30, 2002
I sure thought Boston would win, but I'm thrilled with the results nonetheless. I guess I win by losing or something like that. So far, three of my four least favorite hockey teams have lost in the first round of the playoffs... Philly, Boston, Jersey and one more to go tonight. Hey, if your favorite team hasn't made the playoffs in 5 years, you find new ways to root during the post-season. Come on Leafs! And Succa, I imagine you don't want to be boastful, but give yourself a little credit!
posted by 86 at 01:26 PM on April 30, 2002
Screw both of you. I can't believe I'm being teased by internet nerds. This is the lowest moment of my life.
posted by Samsonov14 at 01:31 PM on April 30, 2002
Don't worry Samsonov: No disrespect to the Habs, but we both know Montreal didn't beat Boston as much as Boston did. If Boston showed 1/100th the heart of Montreal's players, they would have swept the series. Also, was Sean O'Donnell named series MVP? He must have had a dozen assists.
posted by yerfatma at 01:50 PM on April 30, 2002
Samsanov, i thought last night's loss would rank higher than net-nerd teasing, maybe i'm wrong. my analysis of why the b's lost, and I think samsanov you would agree: they forgot their team identity. their response to the habs hitting them was to keep getting hit. i don't know if thats a lack of heart, or just a lack of team awareness, but the b's should've wiped the plexiglass with hab sweaters. and then there was this guy named Jose. that save was best ive seen in years. and believe it or not, he didn't throw his stick. guerin's shooting motion knocked the stick out of his hands. sammy, you'll get a chance to air the leafs laundry tomorrow. or maybe in a couple weeks.
posted by garfield at 02:16 PM on April 30, 2002
Hey, I'm a Sens fan, I'm not allowed to brag about the playoffs just yet. (Well, not TOO much anyway. Nyah nyah Boston lost nyah nyah!) I'd say the B's lost because Montreal wanted it more. How did the Habs keep the score close when the Bruins were outplaying them so heavily at times? Throwing the puck at the net constantly, not resting on their heels, and not quitting until the final whistle sounded. The Bruins' lack of playoff experience really showed throughout the series. I actually had the luxury of attending game 3 in Montreal. I tell you, it was incredible, the comeback they made and the atmosphere in the building. One of the best games I've ever watched.
posted by Succa at 05:33 PM on April 30, 2002
Well, after the game tonight all I can say is...
Leafs win!
This seems to be the thread to discuss the first round now, until someone sets one up.
posted by grum@work at 09:57 PM on April 30, 2002
Celebrate while you still can, grum...the Red Team wins the Battle of Ontario this year!
posted by Succa at 10:21 PM on April 30, 2002
Ain't no way, Succa. We've been keeping our Swedes caged up and poking them with sticks. Leafs! But hey, will the lawyers let Yushkevich play already? We desperately need someone to clear the crease now and then.
posted by D at 10:36 PM on April 30, 2002
Is there a mercy rule in hockey? You'd think they'd just cancel the game after it became 5-0.
posted by Succa at 12:04 AM on May 03, 2002
Let me just add that I think McLaren should get the same sort of penalty that Tie Domi got last year for mugging Scott Niedermeyer: gone for the rest of this series and 8 games after that (regular season or playoffs). As well, I think Montreal coach Therrien should be suspended for the same number of games as his players if they commit an act in the rest of this series that results in a suspension. That said, I think Boston coach Ftorek would be wise to keep his stars off the ice for the last 5 minutes of game 6 (or 7) if Boston is about to eliminate Montreal in a blowout game.