October 24, 2003

The wild-card Marlins moved one win away: from another surprising World Series championship, beating the banged-up and bumbling Yankees 6-4 in Game 5 on Thursday night.

posted by justgary to baseball at 01:12 AM - 45 comments

The yankees have Pettitte and Mussina coming up, so they can't feel too bad, but boy do the yankees look old.

posted by justgary at 01:13 AM on October 24, 2003

The Marlins have never lost a playoff series in their storied history. I can't believe they're in a position to extend that streak, but they still have to get through two pitchers who have already beaten them once in this series. I hated the last Marlins team of rent-a-players, but these guys are easy to like. Juan Pierre and Miguel Cabrera are future All-Stars, Pudge Rodriguez is playing the best ball of his life, and their young pitchers are great. It's too bad they might be doing another post-season fire sale, which would be criminal.

posted by rcade at 06:53 AM on October 24, 2003

It's an old game now (game 4) but this picture sure makes me smile. We've had lots of discussions over the last year about the ranking of Jeter among shortstops. I've been vocal that he is my first, last, and only choice. I'm curious if any of the Jeter naysayers would change their tune after the good regular season and typical postseason he's having? Game six should be great. The Yankees won't panic. Well, maybe Aaron Boone will. He looks like a deer in the headlights out there some of the time.

posted by vito90 at 07:56 AM on October 24, 2003

banged-up and bumbling Yankees I could just read that phrase over and over again.

posted by wfrazerjr at 07:59 AM on October 24, 2003

Well, this was the worst birthday ever. Two losses in one day. Fuckers.

posted by goddam at 08:01 AM on October 24, 2003

The Yankees won't panic. Well, maybe Aaron Boone will. He looks like a deer in the headlights out there some of the time. Boone has something like a 2:1 ratio of making an atrocious play to making the right play, maybe even 3:1. When he doesn't make an error, he'll make the wrong play. It's astounding this guy was picked up late by the Yankees. At the start of the post season, I kept asking knowledgable baseball fans, 'why did they get this guy?' which was unanimously answered 'for his defense'. After a few more errors and one swing of the bat, I'd pose the question again, and all I got was a shrug. Now, 'Boone Sucks' gets roared atleast once a game.

posted by garfield at 09:15 AM on October 24, 2003

Jeter plays with poise and delivers in the clutch, but anyone who wouldn't trade him straight up for A-Rod belongs in the Grady Little wing of Baseball's Hall of Shame.

posted by rcade at 09:16 AM on October 24, 2003

I don't know why they picked up Boone either. It kind of seemed desperate at the time. Ventura wasn't THAT bad, was he?

posted by jerseygirl at 09:27 AM on October 24, 2003

The yankees have Pettitte and Mussina coming up, so they can't feel too bad And the Cubs had Prior and Wood coming up....... Go Marlins! Now let me jump on my Jeter Naysaying Soapbox. Jeter had an OPS of .844 this year despite missing about 40 games to that shoulder injury. His career OPS is .852, so I guess "good" is relative. Good compared to Cristian Guzman, certainly. He is having a nice postseason, though, with an OPS of .905. If the Yankees lose this World Series, will Jeter still get the "just knows how to win" tag?

posted by mbd1 at 09:37 AM on October 24, 2003

i think this is it. yankee haters should tune in on saturday.....the yanks have lost their mojo. i also think torre is goating this series left and right. while i loathe soriano, especially in the lead off spot, there's no reason to sit him in favor of enrique wilson. soriano can strike out all he wants but he's still an integral part of the yanks 3-run homer offense and this is still the world series. soriano shouldn't have *ever* been the lead-off for this team. while torre has had the golden touch there's something that doesn't sit right with him on the bench and then coming into the field late in the game in right field. torre managed the last two games like they didn't mean much. he could have afforded to get a little creative with his bullpen usage, although that's questionable.....there's not much out there in that pen. going to mariano in game four might not have hurt. and hammond was a poor choice last night. you can't expect guys like weaver and hammond to be sharp after these long layoffs. and it's a disgrace that they are pitching some of the biggest innings of the season. go marlins.

posted by oliver_crunk at 09:48 AM on October 24, 2003

I'm glad to see that Pudge has finally gotten to play on a National stage and get out of the looming shadow that is the Rangers organization. He's definitely one of the (if not the) best catcher(s) of this era and deserves the recognition. Go Fish.

posted by Ufez Jones at 10:05 AM on October 24, 2003

Maybe I'm finding out what makes the insufferable Yankee fans insufferable. Two days ago they were all gloating about the 27th World Championship, planning the victory parade. Now they are all over the team. Very insecure, these people.

posted by cg1001a at 10:21 AM on October 24, 2003

Ain't life grand?

posted by rcade at 10:26 AM on October 24, 2003

Maybe I'm finding out what makes the insufferable Yankee fans insufferable. Two days ago they were all gloating about the 27th World Championship, planning the victory parade. Now they are all over the team. Very insecure, these people. and the jerky fans are awfully quiet when the team is losing.

posted by jerseygirl at 10:26 AM on October 24, 2003

As long as Pettitte pitches like it's a Game 2...and Nick Johnson hits the ball...and Soriano makes contact, for God's sake...and Boone catches a ball...and...and... I've got nothing to worry about. Yikes.

posted by msacheson at 11:19 AM on October 24, 2003

sorry msacheson! the "ifs" are enough to drive you crazy, but it's the "joy" of being a sports fan. :)

posted by jerseygirl at 11:35 AM on October 24, 2003

Well I'm as much of a Yankee hater as the next guy, but I wouldn't count them out at all. The Marlins aren't beating them in any meaningful way except clutch hitting - and only slightly at that. With a 6-1 lead last night, the Fish ended up about 5-feet in front of a Bernie homer that would have changed this thread significantly. If Beckett goes tonight then it'll be very interesting. 23-year old kid in the middle of the Zoo with the title on the line. Yankees should never be considered dead until the champaigne is spraying- and even then I'd check with the Umpires to make sure it's official.

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 11:37 AM on October 24, 2003

The yankees have Pettitte and Mussina coming up, so they can't feel too bad And the Cubs had Prior and Wood coming up....... Go Marlins! Hey, I'm all for the marlins, but they looked pitiful against both pitchers. I hope that changes, but I can see the yankees still being pretty confident. The Marlins aren't beating them in any meaningful way except clutch hitting In english please ;) Sorry McSmoley, you lost me there. Clutch hitting is the difference in many games. There couldn't be a more meaningful 'way'.

posted by justgary at 12:01 PM on October 24, 2003

OK - I didn't phrase that well Put it this way - Fish are playing the best baseball of their lives. Yankees are looking the worst I've seen in years - YET five more feet on that Bernie shot and it's Petitte going for the crown and Beckett trying to extend the series. Just seems like everyone is all up on a final that isn't in yet. In fact - now would be a good time to put some money on the Yanks. Or I'm dead wrong. Isn't this fun?

posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 12:05 PM on October 24, 2003

rcade said "Jeter plays with poise and delivers in the clutch, but anyone who wouldn't trade him straight up for A-Rod belongs in the Grady Little wing of Baseball's Hall of Shame." I'm starting to think that this is a Marino/Montana comparison. And in that situation I'd take Montana any day of the week. I'm not willing to say that I would keep Jeter over A-Rod at this point, but I don't think it would be shameful to think about it. Thoughts?

posted by 86 at 12:07 PM on October 24, 2003

Speaking of champagne......Bud Selig is still a moron.

posted by mbd1 at 12:07 PM on October 24, 2003

PS - Go Fish, but let's go seven to make it fun. And more painful for Yankee fans. What can I say? I'm a spiteful bastard.

posted by 86 at 12:08 PM on October 24, 2003

I'm sitting at home sick right now, and one of the few things that is making me feel somewhat better is that my team could be the champs by Sunday morning... Go Marlins!

posted by bcb2k2 at 12:20 PM on October 24, 2003

Or I'm dead wrong. Isn't this fun? Probably somewhere in the middle. ;) Still, thanks for explaining. I understand now, and agree to an extent, and can now go on with my day.

posted by justgary at 12:45 PM on October 24, 2003

mbd1: good link, especially this: If Selig is so worried about alcohol consumption, then stop selling suds at the ballpark. He is such a 'tard! Champagne vendors probably don't pay for the privilege, so they got's to go. Weedy: Dead wrong maybe, but at least not dead. Just be glad you can still hang out and smoke. And don't be all justgary on us!

posted by billsaysthis at 01:08 PM on October 24, 2003

I'm all over the Yankees all the time :) But now most fans are joining me in my cynicism. Gonna be a stressful weekend. it'd be hard to watch another team celebrating on that field...

posted by Bernreuther at 01:57 PM on October 24, 2003

Jeter had an OPS of .844 this year despite missing about 40 games to that shoulder injury. How is OPS affected by games played again?

posted by yerfatma at 02:06 PM on October 24, 2003

I'm not willing to say that I would keep Jeter over A-Rod at this point, but I don't think it would be shameful to think about it. Thoughts? Dude, that's shameful. Next you'll be telling me you'd rather have Mike Mussina than Pedro Martinez.

posted by wfrazerjr at 02:34 PM on October 24, 2003

I understand that it's a rate stat, but it's easy to assume that he wasn't playing at 100% for a while after he came off the DL. I don't know, I haven't looked at the stats to justify that. But it probably took him some time to readjust to major league pitching after not swinging the bat for 6 weeks.

posted by mbd1 at 02:34 PM on October 24, 2003

wfrazerjr, I don't think it's shameful because of the intangibles. I know people talk about "intanglibles" so much the word has lost all meaning, but Jeter brings something to the table that A-Rod doesn't. And it's something that isn't made up in the power numbers, the better defense, the better overall talent. The man has four or five WS rings to prove his worth. He's been to the World Series how many times? The post-season every year (or close to it)? The rise of the Yankees corresponds with his career. Yes, he isn't the only one on that field and he isn't the once-in-a-generation talent that A-Rod is, but I think that trade is closer to being even than most would admit. And think about it this way... If Derek Jeter was that much worse, wouldn't A-Rod would be a Yankee right now?

posted by 86 at 04:26 PM on October 24, 2003

Hey, I admire Jeter. He's a great leader, he's got the rings, blah blah blah. But is he the reason the Yanks have all the titles? Nope. He's a partial reason, and because ARod is a better ballplayer (much better, in my estimation), I think the Yankees would have one every one of those championships with Rodriguez as opposed to Jeter. Look at it this way if you were Tom Hicks, would you swap Arod for Jeter? I didn't think so.

posted by wfrazerjr at 04:55 PM on October 24, 2003

As the Sports Guy put it (deep breath) "A. Salaries matter ... would you rather be paying Tony Parker $3 million for the next two years, or Mike Bibby $70 million for the next six? B. Age matters ... would you rather have Chris Webber for the next five years or Amare Stoudemire for the next 15? C. Pretend the salary cap suddenly got expanded to $70 million (making any trade possible), then ask yourself one question: If Team A tells Team B, "We'll trade you Player X for Player Y straight-up," does Team B make the deal or not? D. Concentrate on degrees. For instance, neither Phoenix or Boston would make a Paul Pierce for Stephon Marbury trade, but the Suns would at least call in their basketball people to discuss it, while the Celtics would say, "No bleeping way we're trading Pierce!" That counts in the big scheme of things. E. Make the list in reverse order, Nos. 40 to 1. So if Stevie Francis ranks in at No. 14, players 1 through 13 are all players about whom Houston would probably say, "We hate giving up Stevie Franchise, but we can't pass up that deal." And they wouldn't trade him for any of the players listed at Nos. 15-40. " Link for reference in future discussions.

posted by lilnemo at 05:05 PM on October 24, 2003

The man has four or five WS rings to prove his worth. He's been to the World Series how many times? The post-season every year (or close to it)? The rise of the Yankees corresponds with his career. Yes, he isn't the only one on that field and he isn't the once-in-a-generation talent that A-Rod is, but I think that trade is closer to being even than most would admit. Chuck Knoblauch has four World Series rings. Being good enough to play for the Yankees during a historic run of success does not put Jeter anywhere in the ballpark in a one-on-one comparison to A-Rod. I understand the sentimental argument being made here, but it's literally a no-brainer. Jeter could have a ring for all 21 digits on his body and Cashman would still dump him without a nanosecond's hesitation if Tom Hicks offered a trade.

posted by rcade at 05:52 PM on October 24, 2003

I'd even hazard a guess that Cashman would pay for the plane ticket. And I don't even like A-Rod. I feel dirty.

posted by lilnemo at 05:59 PM on October 24, 2003

Arghhh...why is A-Rod for Jeter even debatable? Jeter is not even close to Rodriguez. Careers Numbers: Jeter - .851 OPS, 127HR, 615 RBI Rodriguez - .963 OPS, 345HR, 990RBI Ok, but Jeter is so stellar in the field: Jeter - 2839 assists, 116 E's, 582 DP's, .975 FP Rodriguez - 3079 assists, 102 E's, 744 DP's, .979 FP Best Year: Jeter - 1999 .989 OPS, 24 HR, 102RBI Rodriguez - 2002 1.015 OPS, 57HR, 142 RBI Rodriguez's WORST year - 1997 .846 OPS, 23 HR, 84 RBI A-Rod's worst year is comparable to Jeter's best, and better than any year in Jeter's career except '99. Sorry to bust out all the numbers, but this thing of putting Jeter in the same class as Rodriguez drives me nuts. There is no evidence to support such a claim. I looked all over Stats Inc, coudn't find "Rings" as a category. Jeter is a fine shortstop, but nowhere close to A-Rod (and actually doesn't stack up so well against Nomar either, perhaps in another thread).

posted by pivo at 06:46 PM on October 24, 2003

He's a good shortstop. Nomar is better and A-Rod is the best. Also, I'd like to be the first to predict Guerrero in a NY uniform playing RF next year. Garcia's gone.

posted by jerseygirl at 11:38 PM on October 24, 2003

Read that Guerrero rumor yesterday but wondered if he wouldn't be an upgrade over Trot Nixon--will Bosox be willing to spend for him?

posted by billsaysthis at 01:23 PM on October 25, 2003

Hm. I don't know about that. They've got some spending decisions to do in the off season - Nixon, Lowe, Millar, Mueller, Varitek, Pedro, and Nomar -- are all up at the end of the 2004 season. I'd bet on George buying him.

posted by jerseygirl at 03:01 PM on October 25, 2003

Guerrero in a NY uniform playing RF next year. For previous compensation Todd Zeile? I want to continue to love baseball. I can see one of the greatest players in baseball right in my backyard. Please let it be.

posted by qbert72 at 03:20 PM on October 25, 2003

Chuck Knoblauch has four World Series rings. Being good enough to play for the Yankees during a historic run of success does not put Jeter anywhere in the ballpark in a one-on-one comparison to A-Rod. That's a totally unfair argument. We're not talking about Chuck Knoblauch, Luis Sojo or Tino Martinez. We're talking about Derek Jeter. He's a proven winner, goddammit. The point is to win the World Series, not have better statistics than your opponent. Baseball is about so much more than statistics. So Rodriguez is a rainmaker, so what? He doesn't contribute to successes of teams in any meaningful ways. The Mariners improved without him, and the Rangers would have improved if they eschewed him for good pitching. His contribution index is lower than Jeter's. In fact, I would keep Posada and Bernie Williams over A-Rod (the former because catchers are harder to find and the latter just to spite you). Here's the sabermetric argument. Even Billy Beane in Moneyball acknowledges that the sabermetric philosophy is designed to build a winning team over a 162-game schedule. With that many games, probabilities will have the chance to work themselves out and manufacture output in the form of runs scored. But Beane said that the playoffs are a crapshoot - over 4 or 7 games the tendencies to walk and get on base won't have the opportunity to work themselves out. So here's what you have to ask yourself. Are you trying to win a World Series? Or are you trying to field a team that boasts the best numbers? If you want the former, then make the playoffs with guys who aren't afraid to swing the bat and make something happen and who don't get nervous on a big stage and don't fail you when you most need them and live for the big moment and have a flair for the dramatic and an ability to be in the right place at the right time and be a leader to his teammates, an ever-confident presence that is looked up to by every single member of the organization, and do this in the city with the highest expectations and most media scrutiny and do it all with very good numbers. As for Tom Hicks, and what he would do given the chance...he'll never get that opportunity. Steinbrenner doesn't want A-Rod. He wants Jeter. And I think Steinbrenner's record is, uhh, a little more impressive than Hicks'. Jesus H. Christ, in other words, just for one second, forget about the statistics! grabs spatula, uses it to pry own lips from Jeter's backside...

posted by vito90 at 06:23 PM on October 25, 2003

Marlins win! Marlins win!

posted by languagehat at 10:06 PM on October 25, 2003

Guess he really didnt "just know how to win" after all.

posted by pivo at 11:06 PM on October 25, 2003

Fuck me. I'll take my crow medium-rare, with a side of mashed potatoes. That was a long drive home from the bar, knowing that everything I passionately wrote this morning blew up in my face with Jeter's game 6 performance. But I'm here to face the music. Bring it on, you bastards!

posted by vito90 at 01:26 AM on October 26, 2003

We're not talking about Chuck Knoblauch, Luis Sojo or Tino Martinez. We're talking about Derek Jeter. He's a proven winner, goddammit. The point is to win the World Series, not have better statistics than your opponent. How is Jeter any more of a "proven winner" than Knoblauch, if the proof you're looking for is rings?

posted by rcade at 06:02 AM on October 27, 2003

I don't know man. Chuck Knoblauch never entered into my argument. You were the one that saw fit to make the crazy comparison. He doesn't belong in the same sentence as Jeter, unless the sentence is "Knoblauch, he's no Jeter"

posted by vito90 at 07:56 AM on October 27, 2003

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