12/03/24
November 07, 2017
SportsFilter: The Tuesday Huddle:
A place to discuss the sports stories that aren't making news, share links that aren't quite front-page material, and diagram plays on your hand. Remember to count to five Mississippi before commenting in anger.
It's the celebration by the "winner" that makes it great.
posted by grum@work at 09:25 AM on November 07, 2017
I know that in the NFL that a player with the ball is not down unless by contact, but isn't there some sort of rule of the play being whistled dead when the ball carrier gives up on the play?
Watch this to see what I am referring to (TY Hilton play from this past weekend)
posted by NoMich at 10:45 AM on November 07, 2017
I'm not sure where the ball carrier gives up on the play. He dodged the tackle and fell to the ground in the process, got back up and ran it in.
posted by grum@work at 11:50 AM on November 07, 2017
He's probably referring to where he lays on the ground waiting for the defender to pass by before getting up. But I think that is on the defender to not reach down and touch him while he is on the ground. He doesn't need to slam down and tackle him, but just reach out and touch while you run by. Seems like a heads up play by TY. If he had jumped up right away Hal was in a position to make the tackle. Waiting a few seconds (probably wasn't even a full second) was just enough for Hal to saunter past, opening the path to the end zone.
posted by opel70 at 01:04 PM on November 07, 2017
Yeah, opel70 caught my meaning.
Looking through the myriad of NFL rules on when a play is declared dead, I don't see anything about "giving up on the play." The closest thing that comes to it is when the player with the ball slides feet first as if he's sliding into second base. Then the play is dead without needing to be touched by an opposing player.
And going back to what opel70 mentioned, this is completely on the defensive player for not merely reaching down with a single finger and touching Mr Hilton.
posted by NoMich at 01:42 PM on November 07, 2017
Roy Halladay has died in a plane crash.
posted by yerfatma at 04:37 PM on November 07, 2017
I saw Halladay and Stieb pitch, and Stieb put up more WAR (57.4 to 48.5) but that can almost entirely be based on the fact that he pitched for an extra 3 seasons (and 120 starts) for the Blue Jays.
Halladay, however, was a MUCH better person than Stieb (both on and off the field). It felt good to cheer for Halladay because he was a good person. All of the interviews with former teammates that I've heard so far (Lidge, Romero, Martinez, Hudson) have all mentioned how he was the hardest working guy on the team and that he was all business when he was on the field.
I remember watching his second ever start as Jays pitcher and he threw a no-hitter for 8.2 innings before giving up a 2-out home run. Screw you, Bobby Higginson!
I don't know if it was true, but I'm pretty sure that Halladay didn't ask for a trade from the Jays, but that they asked HIM if he wanted to be traded (since he wasn't getting to the playoffs any time soon as with the Jays). Very few players for the Jays were as well beloved by Halladay even after he left the team.
When he threw the perfect game in the regular season and then the no-hitter in the playoffs, every Jays fan I knew was ecstatic for him.
His name/number is not yet retired on the Jays' Level of Excellence because they were waiting for his HOF ballot appearance (next year). If he got voted in (possible and, sadly now, probable) then they would have also retired his number (like they did with Alomar).
During his time with the Jays, he was known to fly model airplanes around the empty SkyDome during off days/practice. He was very excited to get his pilot's licence in 2014, and posted numerous photos/videos of his love for the plane he was flying when he perished. He only got it a month ago.
My favourite posting from his social media feed is him doing a selfie with the kids baseball team that he coached that won a championship trophy as they all celebrated the win.
The dude was only 40 years old, so he was supposed to be around much longer. This sucks.
posted by grum@work at 06:48 PM on November 07, 2017
There is an NFL rule about a play ending when the ball carrier surrenders himself.
"An official shall declare the ball dead and the down ended ...
"when a runner is out of bounds, or declares himself down by falling to the ground, or kneeling, and making no effort to advance."
Victor Cruz once intentionally took a knee on a catch and got up without the ball. Defenders took it. The initial call of a fumble was reversed by the referee because the play was dead when he gave up by making no effort to advance.
The Hilton play was crafty, like an earlier Bilal Powell touchdown against the Jaguars when he acted like he had been touched and then rocketed away from defenders who stopped playing.
I think allowing this is a bad idea because the NFL penalizes so harshly for defenders who hit someone after the play. Playing possum blurs the line on when a play is over. A defender who tackled Hilton after he pretended to be down and got up is risking an unsportsmanlike conduct call.
There's also an injury risk when some players think a play is over and others don't.
I'd like to see the NFL blow the whistle when the ball carrier acts like he is down. So Hilton's stunt could have ended that play if a ref saw it as a surrender.
posted by rcade at 07:21 PM on November 07, 2017
Thanks for that, grum.
posted by tommybiden at 07:52 PM on November 07, 2017
That is a very nice tribute, grum. Gone too soon indeed.
posted by bender at 09:10 AM on November 08, 2017
I think allowing this is a bad idea because the NFL penalizes so harshly for defenders who hit someone after the play. Playing possum blurs the line on when a play is over. A defender who tackled Hilton after he pretended to be down and got up is risking an unsportsmanlike conduct call.
I understand this position, but a player on the ground does not need to be tackled. Andre Hal is running by the play and can easily touch Hilton without fear of being penalized for unnecessary roughness or late hit. Furthermore, blowing the play dead rewards the player who failed to make the tackle and punishes Hilton, who made a heads-up play. He first dives to try to maximize yardage, but then when he realizes he was never touched, he gets up and continues. That's smart football.
posted by bender at 09:10 AM on November 08, 2017
There was another play, I forget which game it was in, where after a completed pass, the receiver went to the ground, was barely missed by a defender, and then got to his feet. He stood there for a second, looking around, but not attempting to advance, while his teammates yelled and gestured for him to run. He did, gained a few more yards, and then had the ball stripped. The defense recovered, killing an important drive and subsequently scoring. In this case the receiver was better off staying down.
posted by Howard_T at 01:31 PM on November 08, 2017
I understand this position, but a player on the ground does not need to be tackled.
True, but once Hilton got up after playing possum he created a new situation. I don't think that situation is good for the game, because it puts the defenders at too much disadvantage in terms of penalty risk.
Defenders need to touch players when they are down if there's any doubt. But ball carriers shouldn't be allowed to pretend a play is over before they take off. I think Hilton did that.
posted by rcade at 03:39 PM on November 08, 2017
I don't mind a little trickery. I loved some of the stunts that the immortal Jeff Fisher's special teams pulled to torment the Seahawks, who were his favorite dupes. Pete Carroll almost gagged on his gum wad in disbelief (but he never stopped pacing purposefully along the sideline all bug eyed and clapping while he was busy shitting his drawers over what had just happened).
And that Devin Hester faux "play over" delayed runback of a field goal attempt that he caught in the end zone is just classic.
If the Steelers are ever trying to close out the final minute of a game, instead of going into a series of kneel downs, they should hand the ball off to Le'Veon and have him turn one of his patented hesitation runs into a full stop. The defense wouldn't know what to do for a couple of seconds. They'd be waiting for him to burst through the line and he'd be hanging back looking like he was about to accelerate but not going anywhere. It'd be like a bunch of old ladies in Buicks all arriving simultaneously at a four way intersection.
posted by beaverboard at 06:28 PM on November 08, 2017
I can't stop looking at this, and I can't stop laughing when I look at it.
Chiefs TD celebration.