11/21/24
October 05, 2003
"They boo you because they want to cheer you": I can't tell if he's immature or just stupid, either way he's not winning anyone's favor. After being introduced at last night's game in Boston, Byung-Hyun Kim was booed by the crowd for his last performance in Oakland. He responded by tipping his cap and then flipping off the crowd. I haven't seen anything like that before in my scant few years of baseball fanaticism. I don't know how the ownership will deal with this, if at all, in the offseason.
posted by jerseygirl to baseball at 03:03 PM - 44 comments
There was some tell that By was promised a starters role next season if he pitched relief this season. He begrudgingly agreed. I think we all agree that this experiment has failed. The question is do the Sox reneg on their promise?
posted by lilnemo at 05:27 PM on October 05, 2003
How many of us would do the same thing? I'd forgive the guy.
posted by Succa at 05:36 PM on October 05, 2003
I don't see a problem with this. If crowds, no doubt exhibiting a mob mentality, want to abuse players, fine, but they should expect some back. Good on the geezer.
posted by Fat Buddha at 05:48 PM on October 05, 2003
The best of all time was back in 1995 when Jack McDowell flipped off the fans in Yankee Stadium (during his short tenure in pinstripes). I agree with Succa though, as frustrating as Kim has been at times, there is no need to further damage his psyche while he is still on the squad.
posted by usfbull at 06:13 PM on October 05, 2003
If Sox fans can't take what they dish, they deserve to wait another 85 years. Especially if they dish to a member of their own team.
posted by tieguy at 06:50 PM on October 05, 2003
[That said, it wouldn't surprise me if this is part of why we didn't actually see Kim on Saturday night.]
posted by tieguy at 06:51 PM on October 05, 2003
I'm pretty sure that Garry Templeton got himself traded to the Padres (for Ozzie Smith) after he flipped the bird to the Cardinals fans. That incident turned out OK in my book.
posted by mbd1 at 07:23 PM on October 05, 2003
I still don't see why it's such a big deal that he did anything. Here we have a bunch of fans throwing every name in the book at him after he played a freaking game and he's supposed to just take it because "it's part of being a pro"? Rubbish. You get exactly what you deserve; if you boo a player, he has every right to respond.
posted by therev at 07:34 PM on October 05, 2003
People, has anyone here been to a baseball game? Played in one? From little league on booing is part of the game. How many of us would do the same thing? If I was making a over a million a year for playing a sport? Not me, at least if I want to stay in the majors. If crowds, no doubt exhibiting a mob mentality, want to abuse players, fine, but they should expect some back. Good on the geezer. Abuse? Are you kidding? Booing is not abuse. You do well you get cheered, do badly you're booed. Its not abuse, its part of the game. Especially if they dish to a member of their own team. Every crowd has booed a member of their own team. Rarely does anyone respond. Just today, the twins were boing one of their pitchers. When he was yanked from the game I didn't see him flipping anyone off. Here we have a bunch of fans throwing every name in the book at him after he played a freaking game You must have read a different article than I did. It just mentioned booing. Anything more (racial names for instance) and I'm sure Kim would have said so. It would make his case far better. You get exactly what you deserve; if you boo a player, he has every right to respond. Sure, he has every right to respond. Of course, he's only making it harder on himself. If he gets called into a game how much booing will he hear now? I don't know if Kim is stupid or immature, but he's proven (by game performance) that he can't handle pressure, so I'm not surprised he cracked. He doesn't have the toughness to be a reliever. The way to get booing to stop is play well. Nothing else will work. If Kim can't take it, if he should quit playing a 'freaking game' and get a real job. He won't get booed, but I'm sure his paycheck will take a cut as well.
posted by justgary at 07:54 PM on October 05, 2003
People, has anyone here been to a baseball game? Played in one? From little league on booing is part of the game. And this makes it okay? I mean come on justgary, do you honestly think that booing is a good part of the game? Just because something happens does not mean it should be accepted. Booing is not abuse. Seriously? Obviously you've never been booed before. I played amateur baseball at a high level and if I played poorly and got booed, it stung pretty hard (I didn't play poorly often, but even once hits you pretty hard). I already knew I played bad and cost my team a game....do you really think it's somehow benefitial to having it rubbed in like that? Will he improve somehow because someone told him that he messed up? You must have read a different article than I did. It just mentioned booing. Anything more (racial names for instance) and I'm sure Kim would have said so.It would make his case far better. David Wells had people talking about his dead mother for chrissake. People are ruthless when heckling; you're naive if you think that all they were doing is booing. Whether or not he mentioned it in this article, I'm sure he's heard quite a few things that have been past the line of acceptable criticism. I sat behind the dugout at a Blue Jays game and was disgusted at what I heard being sent at the players. Pure trash and any acceptance of that because "he didn't play well" is horrible. The way to get booing to stop is play well. Nothing else will work. Thank you, Captain Obvious. I don't think that Kim was trying to get them to stop booing; he merely was giving them a taste of their own medecine. You and I both know that the next time he hits the field, regardless of whether or not he flips them off, they're going to boo him for his last performance. So what's he to do? Keep taking it every time he blows a save, even if he's saved the last 16 in a row? Regardless of whether or not they are million-dollar superstars, they are still people, and as such, we ought to be treating them with the same respect and dignity that you'd treat anyone else.
posted by therev at 09:24 PM on October 05, 2003
I think they should get rid of him. Maybe see if they can get Hillenbrand back and send him back to Phoenix. Who needs a high strikeout/low walk/low ERA inning eating pitcher. He didn't give up a run, goes 3-1 with 5 saves out if the pen (where he really isn't happy, just damned he's too valuable there) in September. Instead of booing him they probably ought to be thanking him for a postseason berth. Just some grub to ponder. Pivo-give-me-Kim-for-Hillenbrand-any-day-and-twice-on-Sunday, Phoenix
posted by pivo at 09:31 PM on October 05, 2003
I don't see a problem with this. If crowds, no doubt exhibiting a mob mentality, want to abuse players, fine, but they should expect some back. If booing was considered abuse, I am sure athletes across the spectrum of sports would be up on their pedestals trying to put a stop this parade of "violence" by fans. Are they doing that? No. And you know, more times than not, when asked about it, an earnest player will say "we deserved to be booed" On preview the rest of what I wanted to post wouldn't seem to reach anyone this evening... Looks like the crowd is feeling a bit huggy-feely tonight.
posted by jerseygirl at 10:02 PM on October 05, 2003
And this makes it okay? I mean come on justgary, do you honestly think that booing is a good part of the game? Just because something happens does not mean it should be accepted. Not good or bad, but a part of the game all the same. The yang to the yin of cheering. Are you seriously trying to tell me that booing should not be accepted? So fans should cheer but never boo? Please. After you get rid of booing in baseball maybe you can move on to just about every sport under the sun. You have your work cut out for you. Obviously you've never been booed before. I played amateur baseball at a high level and if I played poorly and got booed, it stung pretty hard (I didn't play poorly often, but even once hits you pretty hard). I played for 17 years and ended at the college level. Hopefully my credentials are good enough for you. In the end I was too short and too slow. To tell you the truth I hardly ever noticed fans. David Wells had people talking about his dead mother for chrissake. People are ruthless when heckling; you're naive if you think that all they were doing is booing. I'm not naive at all. I know how bad it can get. Doesn't mean that's what he heard here. Players are not shy about bringing up particular lines thrown out by fans. Kim just didn't want to be booed. You're just making assumptions on previous instances. Doesn't mean it happened here. I don't think that Kim was trying to get them to stop booing; he merely was giving them a taste of their own medecine. He really gave it to them, huh? I bet those fans went home crushed. Please. It just eggs them on. Any player with half a brain knows that. It just makes it worse on Kim, and god knows he doesn't need it worse. You and I both know that the next time he hits the field, regardless of whether or not he flips them off, they're going to boo him for his last performance. So what's he to do? Keep taking it every time he blows a save, even if he's saved the last 16 in a row? It will surely make it worse. I'd be scare to even put him out there now. When you're brought in with a one run lead and walk one hitter while hitting another you might as well expect the boos. Regardless of whether or not they are million-dollar superstars, they are still people, and as such, we ought to be treating them with the same respect and dignity that you'd treat anyone else. How about Kim understand that booing is part of the game and even if it is 'abuse' it will never leave so deal with it or quit. I would trade careers with Kim in an instance. Timlin said it best: "I was standing right next to him. I was personally embarrassed," said Timlin, who pitched three perfect innings. "He's a man. He's got to control his actions. "I was embarrassed for myself and for the Red Sox."
posted by justgary at 10:10 PM on October 05, 2003
Are they doing that? No. And you know, more times than not, when asked about it, an earnest player will say "we deserved to be booed" Exactly. 99.9 percent of players understand its part of the game. This whole thread about booing being 'abuse' has to be the strangest thing I've read at spofi. On preview the rest of what I wanted to post wouldn't seem to reach anyone this evening... Bah, you should still post it.
posted by justgary at 10:15 PM on October 05, 2003
ok. i will. and I'll agree with you justgary... when i posted this fpp, i never expected much of a response. so... You perform well and the crowd loves you. You stink it up out there and they are going to tell you about it. It happens everywhere where anyone is put before a crowd as part of their occupation. Actors, comedians, politicians, musicians, athletes. It's all the same pressure. Where else would this be acceptable? No where. It's part of the gig, man. You know that when you get on "stage" and sign the checks. If Sox fans can't take what they dish, they deserve to wait another 85 years. Oh. It's just us. :/ Hah. What's a fan to do then while in the stands when a player doesn't perform? Offer a toasy mug of cocoa? Perhaps a sachet of some relaxing potpourri? A reassuring hug and the latest Chicken Soup for the Blown Save Closer's Soul? Come on, guys. If fans in the stands can't boo, then what we do here is just as wrong with our posts complaining and name calling and seething about stupid plays or "bum" athletes. It's sports. We're fans. This is what we do. Don't get all Oprah on me. So what's the bottom line after all this? He gets paid 3.5mil a year as an athlete. Absolutely, most of his job is to perform as a world class athelete, but there is more to it than that. With his job, he has some responsibilities. He has a commitment to his employer, he has a commitment to the league and a simple responsibility to keep himself in check as an adult. He signed the line on the contract, he cashes the checks, it's not too much to ask him to not make leud gestures to the "customers" while on the clock, at his place of employment and wearing the company garb. I don't imagine the owners are taking a very nonchalant attitude with this. The fans are the customers and the customers are revenue. Yes, the customers are demanding, loud, emotional and obnoxious at times, but that's how it is. These customers will live and die by you and will generally give you another chance for their adoration.
posted by jerseygirl at 10:51 PM on October 05, 2003
The way to get booing to stop is play well. Nothing else will work. Really? I think Patrice Brisbois might disagree. He scored a goal in a pre-season hockey game and STILL got booed by the Montreal fans for stuff he did last season. That's what resulted in Bob Gainey's rant about those fans.
posted by grum@work at 11:55 PM on October 05, 2003
A reassuring hug and the latest Chicken Soup for the Blown Save Closer's Soul? Hee. It happens everywhere where anyone is put before a crowd as part of their occupation. Actors, comedians, politicians, musicians, athletes. It's all the same pressure. Good analogy. The baseball field is basically their stage. he cashes the checks, it's not too much to ask him to not make leud gestures to the "customers" while on the clock, at his place of employment and wearing the company garb. I work in the business office of a pediatrics clinic. At least once a week I get cursed at by a customer (99.9 percent of the time I did nothing wrong - they're just taking it out on me because I'm there). Now I'm talking being called names, not just booing. If I were to curse back, or flip them off (and I've often wanted to) I'd be looking for a new job. But hey, I'm an adult, I can control my emotions (and Kim probably makes as much per pitch as I make a year). So exuse me if I don't spend too much time sympathizing with Kim's abuse. A reassuring hug and the latest Chicken Soup for the Blown Save Closer's Soul? Hee. The simple fact is when players do well they are treated like gods and cheered. To balance that out you take the chance of being the goat and booed. It's been like that from the start, everyone knows the deal, and no one is forced to deal with it. I think Patrice Brisbois might disagree. I don't follow hockey, so I'll plead ignorance. Sure, there are cases with special circumstances, but in general, cheering/booing is tied to performance. If Kim came out the next night and saved a game, he would have turned the boos into cheers. Now, he might be one of those players with 'special circumstances', and he has no one else to blame but himself.
posted by justgary at 12:23 AM on October 06, 2003
It strikes me as very childish, and sulky in the extreme, to go to a game, boo one of your players and expect him to just take it with equanimity. It happens at English football games and it makes me sick. One the best things I ever saw was Alberto Tarantini wade into a heckler; the guy quickly lost his appetite for debate. Sports fans should grow up, if they can't take it they shouldn't give it. They should ask themselves, "would I say or do this, one on one, face to face, or to some stranger in a bar". If the answer is no, they should shut the fuck up.
posted by Fat Buddha at 02:25 AM on October 06, 2003
Meh. The fans showed some passion and he showed some passion back. I can't imagine it blowing over though since there will always be some that never cared for him in the first place so they won't forget what he's done.
posted by gspm at 03:38 AM on October 06, 2003
If fans in the stands can't boo, then what we do here is just as wrong with our posts complaining and name calling and seething about stupid plays or "bum" athletes. I disagree. It's a different thing to discuss your player's/team's performance down the pub or online than it is to actually physically heckle them at the game to their faces. It's another thing entirely to boo the opposition though, that's part of being a supporter.
posted by squealy at 03:56 AM on October 06, 2003
Boston "fans" suck in a huge way. The Sox crowd was the last bastion of true Boston fandom, but it's going the way of the Fleet Center and Gilette Stadium: other than season ticket holders, it seems the majority of people there are on corporate tickets. In the playoffs it only gets worse. Society now teaches us if you paid all that money for these seats, you're owed a saved game. Anyone who wants to see Kim gone is what Mo Vaughn called "dumb, stupid Boston fans." The kid's like 24. He is a nasty pitcher. He's only going to get better. As pivo said above, do you seriously want Shea Hillenbrand back? The trade was a steal (and if you can't stomach Kim's middle finger, check out Shea's comments since he left) and I hope Kim finishes his career with the Sox if he can figure out how to stop hitting lefties. The crowd the last two games was pretty cool. However, if either of those games had gone the wrong way, I can't imagine we would have heard a "Beat New York" chant (ignoring the fact that series hadn't been decided until after Game 4 of the Sox-A's tilt). Kim's shoulder, not his finger, prevented him from pitching on Saturday. If they weren't going to pitch him, they wouldn't have tried to warm him up.
posted by yerfatma at 06:34 AM on October 06, 2003
Look, Kim was telling his teammates he didn't want to pitch any more in the Oakland series after Little yanked him from game 1. Friday night, he told team officials that he couldn't get loose after trying to warm up. I think Little was an idiot for yanking him. I think Little's mismanaged him all year long. I think Kim has a certain amount of potential. I know that Boston can be a tough city. But you know, you're not going to be able to pitch in this league if you're sulky, and Kim is a sulky player. Giving the fans the finger is the latest example. I'm not convinced he's gonna make a good starter, either. He was 1-5 with Arizona this season as a starter after spending all of last season asking to start.
posted by Bryant at 07:08 AM on October 06, 2003
bottom line with the booing: it's your dollar. and if you choose to spend it on a ballgame, your ticket becomes your voice. if they're was even the slightest concern by MLB about the 'abuse' strewn by fans, they'd either warn fans or eject you for bad bahavior. it doesn't say on my ticket i can't call kim a "no good, run down loser"....so with that said MLB expects players to treat 'customers' with some respect. what kim did was wrong. what kim did was not what the MLB expects from their players. it was poor behavior. and i'm sure he'll get fined. the funny thing about this is that i can see a strong number of red sox fans who despise kim. and it seems, judging by the fan response in boston, that they'd just as soon rather send him off somewhere else. it's the fans right to disagree with the action or personel on the field. after all, we're the ones keeping this whole thing going anyway. so the fans have given their input regarding kim....let's see if the red sox front office follows suit.
posted by oliver_crunk at 07:32 AM on October 06, 2003
let's see if the red sox front office follows suit. Sober up. The Red Sox are a business. The business of business is profit. They will profit most if they field a winning team: ticket sales, TV ratings, playoff revenues, merchandise, etc. Why should they trade someone if he helps their chances of winning just because some bores in the crowd boo him? Does that mean Red Sox Nation as a whole dislikes him? Unfortunately, the lesser minds in the Nation will soon enough, because Reichsmarschall Callahan* and Shank Shaughnessy have started in on him, but that doesn't mean our boy Theo is dumb enough to be swayed. * Callahan said this morning he found in disgraceful Manny raised his finger in the air when he got a hit in the 9th. So that's the level of tolerance for non-white players we're dealing with here.
posted by yerfatma at 07:55 AM on October 06, 2003
the funny thing about this is that i can see a strong number of red sox fans who despise kim. and it seems, judging by the fan response in boston, that they'd just as soon rather send him off somewhere else. Hmmm... yes and no. He's a good closer. He's certainly a much better scenerio than the 'closer by committee' debacle. Do I have complete faith in him as a closer? Not entirely in the super close games. I know his stats, I just don't get a good feeling about him when the game is on the line. Just how I feel about it. I hope he proves me wrong. Repeatedly. I do hope he can get it done as a #4 or #5 starter next year, though so we'll see how that goes... next year. He has to toughen up a bit. He is sulky and sulky doesn't work in Boston and it doesn't work in baseball. Derek Lowe had a hell of a time when he was flailing as a closer in 2001. He got sulky. There were regular showings of the Derek Lowe Face (which looks a lot like "I just pissed my pants in front of 30000 people... and then someone ran over my dog... and kicked me in the groin.") I don't want Shea back. If that trade never went through, we'd never have Mueller at 3rd or had Ortiz off the bench. At last I heard, Arizona was thinking of trading him off because he was too much of an "American League player" and things weren't working out with the D-Backs. I am hoping with my idiotic Red Sox optimism that the team can get Billy Wagner in the off-season, put Kim in the promised starter role and find another decent starter. I don't know what to do with Suppan, if you're going to ask. Callahan said this morning he found in disgraceful Manny raised his finger in the air when he got a hit in the 9th. So that's the level of tolerance for non-white players we're dealing with here. Yeah but Callahan was also in on that Metco Gorilla bullshit last week too, so his track record in regards to racial harmony isn't exactly stellar.
posted by jerseygirl at 07:59 AM on October 06, 2003
yerfatma: you're right and i agree with you. but it wouldn't be far off for a player to get run out of boston. and in a situation like this, business will be put aside if enough yappers in the press make a big enough deal about it. it'll be hard to live this down for kim and even the SABR-inclined theo is going to at least flinch. i bet you could get even money on his departure based on that action alone.
posted by oliver_crunk at 08:36 AM on October 06, 2003
and the situation is made even more tenable if the reason kim wasn't used on saturday *because of* his actions. that's the real big deal here. that's where the business factor comes in.
posted by oliver_crunk at 08:40 AM on October 06, 2003
but it wouldn't be far off for a player to get run out of boston By the Media and the Fans? The only player who's "been run out of town" recently was Carl Everett...and that certainly wasn't because of the Boston Globe. Carl had major problems with everyone, especially his manager and general manager. Kim doesn't fit into that profile. He's young and frustrated but not an issue on a grander scale. He might not pitch tonight and he might not close again, but to think he's on his way out of town seems a stretch. The kid's like 24. He is a nasty pitcher. He's only going to get better He's eligible for arbitration this year, and if the Sox non-tender him (as Gerry Callahan suggested the should/will this AM) they'd be crazy. Derek Lowe looked like he should be shipped out of town in 2001 too.....and Kim's not even pitching *that* poorly.
posted by YukonGold at 09:13 AM on October 06, 2003
He's certainly a much better scenerio than the 'closer by committee' debacle. Can you clarify that? If you mean, "He's much better than Chad Fox, Ramiro Mendoza, the guy in the 5th row and my dead great-great-grandmother," ok. I don't think the Red Sox 2003 bullpen proves Bill James' idea can't work. Earl Weaver's wait for the 3-run homer offense wouldn't have worked if he had 8 Mark Belangers playing the field.
posted by yerfatma at 10:11 AM on October 06, 2003
Can you clarify that? If you mean, "He's much better than Chad Fox, Ramiro Mendoza, the guy in the 5th row and my dead great-great-grandmother," ok. That's what I was speaking of, yep.
posted by jerseygirl at 10:20 AM on October 06, 2003
Can you clarify that? If you mean, "He's much better than Chad Fox, Ramiro Mendoza, the guy in the 5th row and my dead great-great-grandmother," ok. That's what I was speaking of, yep.
posted by jerseygirl at 10:21 AM on October 06, 2003
My few thoughts after being out of the loop: 1) Control yourself. You got booed, clearly because you sucked in Game 1. Whether it's fair or not, it's a reasonable and expected response to sucking, and part of the deal when you sign a contract. You can't handle it, go be a telemarketer. 2) If the Red Sox let Kim go, they're idiots. There are about 15 teams out there who would be willing to give up something nifty for him. Why? He's freaking 24! For God's sake, the kid is unhittable sometimes, and you're going to just let that walk? At least get something for him! 3) Ahhh, Garry Templeton, sweetest of the idiots. His lovely upraised digit to the greatest baseball fans in the world earned him a one-way ticket to purgatory, and handed us the best defensive shortstop in history. Sometimes, some good does come from the bird. 4) What's a Metco Gorilla? Is it like a Cleveland Steamer?
posted by wfrazerjr at 10:21 AM on October 06, 2003
4) What's a Metco Gorilla? Is it like a Cleveland Steamer? the metco gorilla story - here, here and here
posted by jerseygirl at 10:40 AM on October 06, 2003
Nuts. I was hoping it was some cute new mascot, like the AFLAC duck. Go Pedro go!
posted by wfrazerjr at 10:54 AM on October 06, 2003
See also here (blatant self-link) for polite, unbiased, even-handed coverage of the affair.
posted by yerfatma at 11:12 AM on October 06, 2003
Kim's response doesn't surprise me. This is 2003 and his behavior fits in quite well with what we see all the time in America (and elsewhere). This is not about sports anymore but about a change in what's normal across the board and, IMO, traces to a swing towards selfcenteredness in our culture. I see little distinction, to be honest, between Kim's fingerwaving and the obesity epidemic.
posted by billsaysthis at 01:34 PM on October 06, 2003
Sports fans should grow up, if they can't take it they shouldn't give it. They should ask themselves, "would I say or do this, one on one, face to face, or to some stranger in a bar". Comparing booing at an athletic event to walking up to a stranger in a bar is a faulty analogy (one has nothing to do with the other). Bottom line. If you work at Mcdonalds making minimum wage and flip off a customer for calling you a name you'll be fired. Kim is just immature and has a lot of growing up to do. If he doesn't grow up he won't be in the league very long. Booing isn't going away, nor should it. The whole idea of booing being abuse is comical.
posted by justgary at 01:42 PM on October 06, 2003
Aw hell - it's not lke he's spitting at an umpire - this can go away - Jamal Mashburn gave me the finger once because I kept asking him to stop bogarting the ball. His teammates thought it was kinda funny. I just think the biggest mistake was that by flipping off the fans he only encourages greater booing. Why does this thread have 29 commetns? I mean, they're rioting at the future-leader growth factory known as Minnesota State-Mankato!
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:21 PM on October 06, 2003
I see little distinction, to be honest, between Kim's fingerwaving and the obesity epidemic. Good one. 'Cause if we dropped you off in Korea at age 24 you would have handled a similar situation with far more aplomb? Arguing from specific to general accomplishes nothing. He's a kid dropped in a high-pressure situation in a country he's not from and he reacted poorly (I guess. I'm all for the finger-pointing).
posted by yerfatma at 03:04 PM on October 06, 2003
posted by jerseygirl at 04:12 PM on October 06, 2003
yerfatma, i feel that this kind of behavior goes directly to an amazing narcissism that leads to things like Arnold Schwarzenegger being the leading candidate to replace Gray Davis, reality shows swamping the TV channels, and, yes, the obesity epidemic . Kim has been here long enough to be infected.
posted by billsaysthis at 09:09 PM on October 06, 2003
I find it kind of ironic that the argument seems to be >> booing is nothing he should just suck it up the wuss, >> ohmygod! he just gave me the finger, the horror! Fans booed him, he gave them some in return. If I was one of the fans booing, I'd be delighted someone was showing some balls. There again, we do things a bit differently over here.
posted by fullerine at 04:49 AM on October 08, 2003
If I was one of the fans booing, I'd be delighted someone was showing some balls. Flipping someone off shows balls? I see people flip each other off daily on the road. Of course, they know they're safe inside their car. Flipping off fans (who can't get to you) isn't balls, its stupidity. And I could care less if he flips the fans off. Free world. But let's make no mistake about it. Kim flipped off the fans because he can't, nor could he ever, deal with pressure. Look at the picture. He looks like he's 11.
posted by justgary at 03:08 PM on October 08, 2003
I'd have to guess he's gone. For a while I thought they'd be bringing him back on the theory that Grady Little was mismanaging him, but with the way Williamson has played the last four games? He might get a shot as a starter, though. Not impossible.