11/21/24
August 20, 2003
CuJo breaks his ankle.: Talk about going from bad to worse. Joseph had to be sitting around waiting for a trade after Hasek returned to the Red Wings and now... he picks up a big injury and could be out for months. Who wants to trade for a goalie that will cost $8 million but won't be available until after Christmas? Bad break.
As the token representative of Bruins Nation, I'd like to add the following: NOOOOOOOOOOOO! There goes those Cujo for LaPointe rumors. Great. Welcome to Boston, Denis Potvin.
posted by Samsonov14 at 08:02 AM on August 20, 2003
Speaking for my fellow disgruntled Leaf fans, let me be the first to say: Bwahahahahahaha! The karma truck has now finished running over Cujo to make up for him ditching the Leafs last summer (so he could "have a chance to win a Cup"). First it was getting swept in the playoffs, then it was getting relegated to backup status, and now it's suffering an injury. In all honesty, he was a gentleman when he was with the Leafs so I really do hope he recovers and gets his career back on track.
posted by grum@work at 08:34 AM on August 20, 2003
...b/c right now the wheels are falling off in a hurry. Breaking an ankle as a goalie is almost as bad as tearing your groin(left or right). sammy, its felix, not denis. I have to second rcade's sentiments. For a team with everything and looking for more, the hockey gods have done what they can do to bring them back down to earth. Don't get me wrong, watching the Wings is a sight to see, but when its not my team, I definitely get a kick out of seeing them suffer. Maybe Hasek will brutalize someone else, and get charged this time. That would be sweet.
posted by garfield at 08:48 AM on August 20, 2003
Not to undercut my own point, but I'm sure some people view Bill Guerin's freak bruise injury as karmic retribution for my beloved Dallas Stars and their free-spending ways. I pray, however, that the hockey gods are not finished with the Red Wings yet. I beseech thee, o Lord Stanley, give Steve Yverman scurvy!
posted by rcade at 08:52 AM on August 20, 2003
Rcade, count me as one who views Guerin's injury as karma. Cujo, though, that's just not fair. Garfield, yeah, I suppose "Denis the Cat" doesn't have quite the same ring to it.
posted by Samsonov14 at 09:51 AM on August 20, 2003
Requests to the Hockey Gods: Hasek comes back - and just sucks. No injury, no police issues, no controversial off-ice actions - just plain old fashioned suckage. Flopping around, throwing himself at the shooter and looking a lot like Glenn Healy circa 2000. Steve Yzerman gets to score an impossible 130 points this year - leading the league in assists and gracious team-oriented post-game commentary. He then promptly (and finally) retires. Doug Glimour finishes 2nd in all the above. Don Cherry proposes to him in a touching Coaches Corner. The league goals per game average rises to 7 - as a direct result of a players union meeting that can be summed up by saying "this game is boring, we're sick of playing defense - shove it up your ass, Lemaire." Minnesota, Anaheim, Carolina, Atlanta, Columbus, Pittsburgh and Ottawa find balance again in the universe and organize themselves from dead last to amost dead last. Jagr repeats his mediocrity from last year, saying only that he is trying hard and is satisfied with his game - he is immediately traded to the Rangers. The Rangers play astonishing fast-paced pond hockey and lead the league in scoring. They finish in the top three and go into the playoffs against a wholefully overmatched Montreal Canadiens. They get swept. Paul Kariya proves that he can score goals again - finishing the season with 55 - good for second. He misses the last month of the season however when his cheekbone is shattered after running into Darian Hatcher's kneecap. Ron Francis gets another 70 points, breaks another three or four all-time records and nuzzles up next to Gretzky, Howe and Messier in all-time stats while still being able to walk through the Hockey Hall of Fame wearing a button saying "Ask me about my 17 NHL records" and not being stopped, noticed or bothered by anyone. Theo Fleury leads the league in goals with 60. And penalty minutes with 392. Along the way he beats the shit out of three mascots, two strippers and two teammates. He is league MVP. Peter Forsberg leads the league in points again, despite playing without his pancreas, three toes and left eye. He missies a total of one shift. The Leafs start to lead the lobby to convert to a 4 on 4 format, after becoming used to only having 4 skaters for the majority of games thanks to their total team goonery. Joe Thorton takes his rightful place in the NHL hierarchy as one of the top 5 in the game. He does so by scoring, plyamaking and beating the shit out of any and all comers. Boston trades him for a bag of pucks and new nets for the practice arena. Colorado finishes first overall - and skates their way to the Finals practically untouched. They loose the Finals in a thrilling triple overtime game seven final against..... ... The Leafs.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:54 AM on August 20, 2003
I was wondering what Denis Potvin would be like in goal. Probably kind of out of practice I'd think.
posted by gspm at 09:57 AM on August 20, 2003
gspm, even though he's retired and only played defense, I'd be willing to bet ol' Denis would give Steve Shields a run for his money.
posted by Samsonov14 at 10:28 AM on August 20, 2003
UPDATE! Cujo out six weeks. Nice.
posted by Samsonov14 at 11:02 AM on August 20, 2003
Typos a-poppin'!
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 11:07 AM on August 20, 2003
next off-season resolution: wait 48 hours to believe any hockey related story.
posted by garfield at 11:16 AM on August 20, 2003
OK, I can understand the hatred for the Wings...and especially for Damien Hatchet...but what did Steve Yzerman ever do to illicit ill will from the hockey masses?
posted by MeatSaber at 12:09 PM on August 20, 2003
Beats me. Yzerman has always been a class act, and is one of the best leaders in hockey.
posted by Samsonov14 at 12:17 PM on August 20, 2003
egads, trying to trade a goalie that had an ankle problem at the end of last season. and now that ankle needed surgery. obviously the Red Wings weren't figuring they'd be putting Joseph on the market until Hasek returned but - ouch, good thing he didn't get traded before this ankle thing was dealt with.
posted by gspm at 12:19 PM on August 20, 2003
Oh no Weedy, say it ain't so....yet another Leaf fan around here? Us fans of other Northeastern teams are getting outnumbered. Sigh. Well while we're here, who do you think's gonna be the new GM? Neil Smith is looking like the man so far, but how is he the right man for the job? Talent development -- what the Leaves need -- is completely not within his area of expertise. He's the leading candidate because he's high-profile enough to give off the impression that upper management is Doing Something. I'd say he's a bad choice. Then again, anything that keeps the Leafs away from the Cup makes this Sens fan happy. As for CuJo, I think he gets a bum rap. He's a quality guy off the ice and I don't blame him for leaving Toronto ("Joe-sieve", anyone?). The 5-1 shellacking from the Swedes in the Olympics wasn't his fault (mostly), and nor was the Ducks' sweep (again, mostly). In fact, I would say anyone who claims Joseph is a mediocre goalie doesn't know what he's talking about. The guy has put up some downright legendary playoff goaltending performances over the years behind defensively mediocre teams. He's had good numbers all his career and he's still one of the best when he's on his game. Just about any team who lands Joseph will be better off.
posted by Succa at 12:41 PM on August 20, 2003
Weedy, I was with you and laughing heartily until your last sentence, which should be corrected to say: ...The Devils!
posted by billsaysthis at 02:10 PM on August 20, 2003
Succa, Cujo is quite good, but he is only good on defensively mediocre teams. What's worse, he makes a defensively mediocre team, well, even more defensively mediocre. His scrambling, impromptu style evokes chaos and panic in his own zone. Believe me, the difference after the first shot with EddieB between the pipes was night and day. He's still a top-10 tender, but I'd rather have Mike Vernon, at his present age, in there.
posted by garfield at 02:44 PM on August 20, 2003
Succa - I wholeheartedly agree - Smith, or any GM isn't the problem with the Leafs, it goes so much deeper - nothing in the minors, a decade of poor drafting (outside of Kaberle and Antropov - but they're no saviours) and a numbing tendency by managment to plug holes with used duct tape. No money for quality free agents and nothing to trade - unless it's a blockbuster, and here's hoping for that. Oh - and fuck the Sens and their efficient, visioned and focused management. You guys still need a gamebreaker and I don't trust Lalime as far as i could throw him. Perhaps I'm biased though. Billysaysthis - quit being so greedy. You have enough parade memories to last a lifetime. I want a taste!
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 02:47 PM on August 20, 2003
Good, maybe this means the Leafs won't make the mistake of getting CuJo back.
posted by insomnyuk at 03:28 PM on August 20, 2003
garfield: Yeah, he's a little nutso between the pipes but I always thought his teammates fed off it. Still, Mike Vernon's better than a top-10 tender? Weedy: You must be happy that at least Lumme and Hoglund are cut loose, even though there's nobody to fill those holes. Not gaping holes, I know, but still. And perhaps you are biased....Lalime was quite good in this past year's playoffs. He's a goalie that gets better every year. He's not elite yet but getting there. Besides, he's as good as he needs to be on that team...with one of the best defensive units in the league, do the Sens really need Patrick Roy in net? As for the gamebreaker, Hossa is turning into something ressembling a power forward, although he's limited by his size. It's hard to argue with his stats though, not to mention his much-improved aggressiveness. Give Spezza the same killer instinct and they'll be one hell of a team this year.
posted by Succa at 04:11 PM on August 20, 2003
I personally think Cujo is a fine goalie. However, it should be noted that he hasn't won a single individual award, nor has any of the teams he's played for won a Stanley Cup or even a league title. He's a very good goalie, but he's not a championship-calibre goalie (Brodeur, Hasek, Roy being the prime examples). I learned that as a Leaf fan. As for Yzerman, I have absolutely no ill-will towards him at all. I just wish he'd retire so that he doesn't end up with a sub-par season on his illustrious career. He's got nothing left to prove to anyone, and he'll be an easy first-ballot, almost-inner-circle hall of famer when the time comes. (The inner circle of forwards is reserved for the 5 greatest of them all: Gretzky, Howe, Lemieux, Richard, Hull...Yzerman can hang out with Beliveau, Esposito, Messier, Bossy and others)
posted by grum@work at 06:27 PM on August 20, 2003
I thought it was a crime when Yzerman was left out of the Hockey News top 50 players of all time. He's one of only 4 players to crack 150 points in a season. We all know who two others are - can you name the 4th? Without looking it up? It's great bar trivia. Cujo to me is sadly overrated. I can appreciate the tough saves that he makes and the showstopping performances he can give - but for a guy with a long career he has taken a team past the second round once, and hasn't won anything. His stats have never been jaw-dropping and he is a risky player who tends to create problems in his own end with his unpredictible rebounds and his totally abysmal stickhandling. He is still a top ten goalie, but has shown an alarming tendency to play worse as the talent in front of him improves. Though he has some great past performances (Dallas v Edmonton - St.Louis v Toronto).
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 09:26 AM on August 21, 2003
succa, Vernon is probably a stretch. I just prefer an 'angle' goalie of the Vernon mold. Nothing fancy. Just be in the front of the puck, and no flailing please. You're right, though, his teams did feed off his timely acrobatics, so there is some benefit to his style of play. He just makes me nervous. And don't forget that Havlat kid. Very feisty last year in the playoffs, and at times mezmerized the opposition and this spectator. Stevie Y is cool with everyone. Anyone says different needs a smack across their stupid face.
posted by garfield at 09:51 AM on August 21, 2003
Weedy: Off the top of my head, I'd guess Bernie Nicholls. The problem with the top 50 of all time is that you have some great players at positions that are hard to compare. How do you compare a great goalie with a great offensive defenceman with a great defensive forward with...you see what I mean. With players like Beliveau, Orr, Potvin (of the Denis variety), Bossy, Harvey, Plante, Dryden, Taylor and others, I can see where a great player like Yzerman would be left out a couple years ago. But throw on a couple more Stanley Cups, a gold medal and some more years of professionalism (including an improvement in defensive zone coverage) and I can see Stevie-Y making the top 50 now.
posted by grum@work at 10:10 AM on August 21, 2003
Yep - Bernie. LA, 1987 - the year before Gretzky arrived, if i recall correctly - 76 goals. Oh, it's really not that hard - just take the 50 best they came up with and compare Yzerman to them. For my money, I'd take Stevie Y over: Bill Cook, Gilbert Pereault, Johnny Bucyk, Milt Schmidt, Paul Coffey and probably a few others. I think Stevie Y gets extra points for his cups, tenure as Captain, ruggedness, loyalty, complete game and his ability to perform in crunch time. Plus his stats eviscerate that of those other guys (save Coffey) and while it's difficult to compare eras - it makes sense to me. I'm sure some of you disagree.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 11:12 AM on August 21, 2003
Here's the top 50 of all time, for those who are interested. It's from '98. Weedy, Paul Coffey in his prime was amazing. You must be thinking of Paul Coffey on the Bruins in 2000-2001. I can't believe I'm trying to argue with a guy named "weedy"
posted by Samsonov14 at 11:37 AM on August 21, 2003
Sorry, just a little defensive when it comes to The Captain... =D Now, back to the subject. Goalies in Detroit have a sort of "damned if you do, damned if you don't" stigma. Think about it...every goalie that's passed through here in the last 20 or so years that didn't win a Cup were picked apart by everyone and his dog for not winning here, even when the Wings were a marginal playoff team (think Cheveldae, Essensa, Hanlon). Two of the guys that did win, Vernon and Osgood, basically get credit for backstopping an awesome team, and that the Wings still would've won if they replaced them with a 50-lb. bag of flour. Even Hasek was a victim of "playing behind an all-star team." But poor CuJo, he came into Detroit with a reputation of not being able to win the big one. Add on top of that the unrealistic expectations for our goalies. I think he's a great goalie who needed time to adjust to a new team, and didn't get a fair shake here in Detroit. I mean, c'mon...when the Wings signed him to a 3-year contract, did anyone really expect them to win 3 straight Cups?
posted by MeatSaber at 12:54 PM on August 21, 2003
Sammy (do you mind if I call you Sammy?) - Coffey has always made the numbers look stupid on those Edmonton teams of the 80s - but he never repeated that success elsewhere and was more or less a journeyman for the last third of his career. Not only, but he was a harrowing defensive defensman and couldn't take the body. I don't mean to take anything away from a defenseman who scored 47 goals one year, but frankly I would rather have Steve Yzerman than Paul Coffey if I was starting out a team. I think he's more valuable. Funny thing is - he is my NHL connection. Friends of my family have their cottage right next to his in Muskoka Ontario - I've been to a BBQ at his place. Terrific guy. I was 14. I'd like to post more links and pics and such (thanks for doing that), but this place isn't very friendly to my Mac and OSX. I hate speaking in code - especially when I'm goofing off at work. Oh and the Weedy thing - believe it, foo'. :)
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:35 PM on August 21, 2003
Aaaaaagghhh! Emoticons! Samsonov MAD!
posted by Samsonov14 at 02:04 PM on August 21, 2003
There's a great synopsis of what might have happened at Hockeyrodent today (Warning: Rangers site). If the column has been replaced, look for a rant on the right side table called "conspiracy theory".
posted by Samsonov14 at 02:43 PM on August 21, 2003
Yep - Bernie. LA, 1987 - the year before Gretzky arrived, if i recall correctly - 76 goals. Bzzzt! It was in Gretzky's first year in LalaLand, 1988-89. Wayne Gretzky Los Angeles Kings 78GP 54G 114A 168Pts Bernie Nicholls Los Angeles Kings 79GP 70G 80A 150Pts Nicholls therefore holds the record for the most points by a player to NOT lead his team in points. Of course it was Gretzky-powered because 2 years later he was a Ranger and never sniffed even half that many points ever again. For my money, I'd take Stevie Y over: Bill Cook, Gilbert Pereault, Johnny Bucyk, Milt Schmidt, Paul Coffey and probably a few others. yes, yes, maybe, yes, maybe Comparisons between eras is very hard*, so that's why a great consistant player like Bucyk is hard to rate. And Paul Coffey is one of the best offensive defencemen in history, so it's also hard to say that Stevie Y is better. That said, if I was pushed up against a wall and told to make a decision, I'd pick Yzerman over all of them. * Have you ever looked at the totals that Cyclone Taylor put up in the early part of the 20th century? When you pro-rate them in comparison to the rest of his league AND the number of games played AND the number of goals scored in a game at that time, he ends up with with a value that would be equivalent to almost 300pts in a 1980's season. But 32 goals and 11 assists just doesn't sound all that impressive compared to, say, 92 goals and 120assists.
posted by grum@work at 03:18 PM on August 21, 2003
It's impressve all right. And when you consider the rules then too - He played Rover, defensemen couldn't leave their end and the nets were a different size - if I recall correctly. Most guys couldn't skate backwards either. I'm also pretty sure that assists were recorded differently. Oh and their were seven guys on each side. And the slapshot hadn't been invented yet - the puck stayed on the ice. Different game. Definitely hard to judge. Nice link. The other problem I find with Hockey is that they tend to let a lot of mediocre players into the Hall of Fame, so sometimes the legends outgrow the reality. And it's a sport where stats don't typically tell the whole story (i.e. would you rather have Chelios of Coffey?).
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 03:37 PM on August 21, 2003
And the Bernie thing - that was the same year Mario had 199 points and lost the Hart to Gretzky, right? My mistake...
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 03:40 PM on August 21, 2003
Must have been sweet to be a goalscorer on a team with Gretzky or Yzerman and have all those nice little treats put right in front of you! I love Gretzky, I would marry him except a) we're both married b) neither of us is gay and c) I only marry soccer players.
posted by billsaysthis at 04:06 PM on August 21, 2003
Cyclone Taylor, star of the Renfrew Creamery Kings. How times have changed. And how many of Bernie's goals were Gretzky banking them in off his ass? But I like Bernie, he was flashy. Didn't he have some "kick" celebration thing when he broke in? Best celebration though? Tiger Williams riding the stick. How times have changed.
posted by gspm at 05:10 PM on August 21, 2003
The other problem I find with Hockey is that they tend to let a lot of mediocre players into the Hall of Fame, so sometimes the legends outgrow the reality. And it's a sport where stats don't typically tell the whole story (i.e. would you rather have Chelios of Coffey?). Most definitely. It's more like the Hockey Hall of Good Players Who Played A Long Time: Michel Goulet, Bernie Federko, Clark Gillies, Dale Hawerchuk, Mike Gartner, Lanny McDonald are all in the HOF, but that doesn't mean I have to respect them as much as Gretzky et al. And I'd choose Coffey over Chelios. He stands out in the long run compared to his contemporaries. Game breaker vs solid defenceman.
posted by grum@work at 09:06 PM on August 21, 2003
Bernie Federko? Bernie Federko's in the HOF? Muthafuckas! Now Mike Gartner, got to give him his props but Bernie Federko? Okay, I'm just kidding, never even heard of Bernie Federko but I just love to say that name. Come on, say it out loud as you read: Bernie Federko! Chant it: Bernie Federko Bernie Federko Bernie Federko. Doesn't that just lighten your morning completely? Like a 30 minute swedish massage in three seconds! Bernie Federko!
posted by billsaysthis at 10:58 AM on August 22, 2003
Federko is in the HHOF? I musta missed that one. Gartner is in (what did he have? like 15 consecutive 30 goal seasons? which is pretty good stuff seeing as he was never, or at least mostly not, on any great teams if I recall) but Federko? He played for the Blues around the same time as Mike Liut and that's about all I could tell you. Maybe was a teammate of Doug Gilmour when he started out. But a Hall of Fame career? What did I miss? I guess there were just a whole lot of other dazzling players in the 80s and Federko doesn't come to mind. From his member page: "He makes the average or above-average player look like a star." -General Manager Ron Caron I don't wanna hate on the guy but you could read that quote as saying that he's so crap that an average player looks like Gretzky in comparison. C'mon HHOF, tighten up. Be more selective. At least Paul Henderson is not yet in. If there was a sentimentality wing I am sure he'd be there.
posted by gspm at 12:28 PM on August 22, 2003
Henderson is in the HOF, but not in the members section. There is a nice little Summit Series section and he gets his due there. Bernie Nicholls, Blaine Stoughton and Jim Carrey also deserve to be in the HOF history section under "flukey seasons". Let's not throw these memories away, but we don't need to elevate the player because of it. Much the same way I think Kirk Gibson, Joe Carter, and Roger Maris should get into the baseball HOF. Not because they should be honoured members in the hall of plaques, but because they had memorable moments and should have a nice spot in the historical section of the hall. I'm a proponent of the "small hall" idea for hockey, so I'd probably end up tossing at least a 1/4 of the guys out of there.
posted by grum@work at 12:46 PM on August 22, 2003
Don't bust on Mike Gartner. He was the fastest guy on ice for many, many seasons. And Weedy, Paul Coffey was amazing. One more word about Paul Coffey and the gloves are coming off!
posted by Samsonov14 at 12:54 PM on August 22, 2003
Paul Coffey overcooked my steak. Come get some.
posted by WeedyMcSmokey at 01:02 PM on August 22, 2003
While this is too bad for CuJo, I'm giddy to see the hated Derian Hatcher-signing Red Wings stuck with the goalie and his contract for at least the first half of the season.