March 23, 2012

Trampoline's are dangerous. When the public safety experts advised parental supervision, I don't think this is what they had in mind.

posted by bperk at 05:24 PM on March 23, 2012

Life threatening? Maybe career threatening but I did not read where the injury was life threatening. In any case hind sight is always 20/20 but what is a guy who makes his living with his body doing on a trampoline? Sometimes it is OK to say no to your kids. Like son dad makes his living pitching in the majors and cannot risk injury.

posted by Atheist at 06:26 PM on March 23, 2012

Atheist:

Life threatening? Maybe career threatening but I did not read where the injury was life threatening.

I did. I clicked the link. Look, see? It's right there in the title: "Yankees relief pitcher Joba Chamberlain dislocates ankle, loses life-threatening amount of blood, 2012 season and career may be over"

tahoemoj:

Is it too hard to have a small amount of empathy?

Well, of course, this is spofi, where people know what he was doing, why he was there, and what substances were in his body, and can -- nay, are obliged -- to open their pie-holes and judge accordingly. Aaah, the internet, where nobody knows that you're a dog, but everybody can tell that you're a jackass.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:22 PM on March 23, 2012

When I was a kid we called them Trampolines of Death, because they caused so many injuries.

Really, when you were a kid you called them that? Nobody called them "trampolines of death" when I was a kid, and all the kids couldn't wait to get up on them. No doubt we were wrong, but my point is, no one knew them as agents of death just waiting to reach out and grab us and smash us on the ground. I question whether it's really all that widely known today -- you can make the "look at what you're doing on the thing for godsakes" argument, but still, do you think anyone would get on one if that were widely known?

But he was asking for trouble, and I'm not lacking empathy by thinking this was a dumb choice.

I'll grant you the dumb choice, but "asking for trouble" seems callous. Subtle difference, perhaps, but I think there is one.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 08:42 PM on March 23, 2012

I've never been to Rebounderz. I know these places are trying to make trampolines safer, but you can only do so much.

Also, have no idea if this is true or not, but according to this site they make you sign a waver:

Second you MUST sign their waiver. The waiver basically says, trampolining is dangerous and could result in in injury or death and you are participating knowingly and accept the risk and won't hold Rebounderz responsible. So, assuming you are okay with all that you can either fill out the waiver online prior to arriving, or fill it out at their designated sign-in station in the lobby.

Edit: Yep, waiver is real.

posted by justgary at 08:50 PM on March 23, 2012

From rcade's link:

Trampoline safety expert Marc Rabinoff, of Metropolitan State College of Denver, Colo., calls trampolines "quad machines" because they can turn you into a quadriplegic in four seconds."

Sums it up, but quad machines doesn't have the ring of 'trampoline of death'.

posted by justgary at 09:20 PM on March 23, 2012

Chamberlain was quickly becoming a non-factor as a pitcher for the Yankees anyways, so it's really no big deal. Let your ankle heal up, then begin your post-baseball life, Joba.

posted by dyams at 10:22 PM on March 23, 2012

So is an organized outing at a business like Rebounderz the same thing as jumping around on a backyard trampoline without extra safety features? Just curious, because I was willing to feel bad for the guy when I thought it was just the backyard variety. I feel even worse for him knowing he had gone to a place that attempts to make trampolines even safer. Is climbing a mountain the same thing as going to a local climbing gym?

The waiver basically says, trampolining is dangerous and could result in in injury or death and you are participating knowingly and accept the risk and won't hold Rebounderz responsible.

Big deal. If you look at the back of a baseball ticket, it has the same disclaimer on it. Has it ever stopped you from going to a ballgame? Go to Disneyland and read the disclaimers at the ticket booth. Just because the legal department has you sign a waiver to do something doesn't necessarily make you stupid per se for doing it.

I'm not lacking empathy by thinking this was a dumb choice. No, I suppose not. In hindsight, I guess I have to agree that it was foolish. My response was a) directed to the post above it, largely because we could all have seen it coming before it arrived; and b) just to point out that empirically, it's pretty goddamn sad that a guy may have lost his career due to making an effort at fatherhood.

posted by tahoemoj at 01:53 AM on March 24, 2012

Anyone who's ever seen an episode of America's Funniest Home Videos knows how dangerous trampolines are.

posted by Mr Bismarck at 09:57 AM on March 24, 2012

Being a parent doesn't automatically make one smart or responsible. MANY yards in my rural community have trampolines and kids jumping on them without supervision. Many of the local kids have their own ATVs and ride without helmets. Each year the newspapers are littered with stories of children and adults being maimed and killed on snowmobiles. Each year more people have kids without having a clue as to how to even try to keep them safe.

My mother was an ER nurse and as much as I complained about how much she didn't love me growing up because she wouldn't let me have a trampoline or a BB gun, etc, etc, I am damn glad she didn't because I was dumb kid and did stupid things, and would have killed myself.

As for Joba, I wish him a speedy recovery and hope he spends his time recuperating thinking of better things to do with his time with his children.

posted by scully at 06:41 PM on March 24, 2012

Confession time: I have played Thunderdome on a trampoline.

As an adult.

(and then...we played nails...)

posted by lil_brown_bat at 09:13 PM on March 24, 2012

All of this is sittin' at home eating marshmallows out of the bag compared to going motorsickle ridin' with Big Ben or Jay Williams.

posted by beaverboard at 11:31 PM on March 24, 2012

27 years old... a little bit beyond the age where you think you're going to live forever and accidents happen to other people. Usually by 25 you start to consider that your actions have consequences. Jeopardize millions of dollars to bounce up and down? There's really only one word for that; Stupid. It's people like Joba that make prove the statement 'youth is wasted on the young' a true statement. I wonder if he violated any of the terms in his contract. That would add insult to his injury. Every so often you hear of some bone-headed move by an athlete that defies wisdom. Hopefully others in a similar position will take heed and wait until a more appropriate time to stick their neck (foot) out for a thrill.

posted by mitchigan at 12:33 PM on March 25, 2012

... I will question whether you could say with any degree of certainty that you (or any of us) would be smarter in the same situation.

I have trouble believing I'd be more reckless if I had more to lose. People make sacrifices for their careers all the time. Not engaging in leisure activities that might imperil your athletic career seems like a reasonable one to make.

Chamberlain's done with surgery and out of the hospital.

posted by rcade at 01:49 PM on March 25, 2012

Climbing off a high horse could be dangerous.

posted by rcade at 02:37 PM on March 25, 2012

A few have suggested that he was stupid for engaging in a recreational activity provided by an ostensibly reputable business. If the danger of maiming was that severe, and if occurrences like this are as common at Rebounderz as some of you suggest, what the fuck are they doing in business?

This is a story about an athlete who took his kid to a local business to spend some time with him.

This is getting kind of ridiculous. Look, trampolines are dangerous. Period. You seem to really have a difficult time understanding/agreeing with this, comparing it to going to a ball game, and I don't know how much more proof you need to just admit that it is dangerous. This isn't even debatable. The statistics back this up, anyone that has worked in an emergency room can back this up, providers of home insurance policies know this, viewers of the Simpsons know this. They've always been dangerous, and they always will be. Flying in the air far higher than what is normally possible and then having to land, often with other people also participating, is dangerous.

Sure, this place has tried to take some of the danger away. Looks like it's harder to fall off. That doesn't take away all the danger. You still can come down wrong. You can still come down on someone else's foot. You can still run into other people jumping. A lot of the 'safety' relies on people not acting crazy.

But you're going to ignore all that because a place whose existence relies on people paying them money claims it's safe? Are you fucking kidding me? Yes, we are safe, come spend money here! By the way, you have to SIGN THIS 2 PAGE WAIVER FIRST! But ignore that, we're really safe!

We've lost focus here. This isn't about the danger to the kid. I'm okay with kids being kids. I'd probably let my kid do this. I understand that kids can be hurt anywhere. I grew up hanging from monkey bars and playing with lawn darts.

This is a story about a pitcher at a crossroades in his career, where he could fade away or continue on making millions a year for the next decade, coming back from a serious injury, already on the disabled list, participating in an activity where injury is not rare.

I'm happy he's spending time with his kid. That's better than getting a DUI. But there's a hundred other ways safer to spend time with his kid. He's not a computer programmer. He can't go to work on crutches and continue to work. He's putting his whole career at risk.

It's ironic to hear lbb complain that sportsfilter users are judgmental. Sportsfilter is easily one of the least judgmental sports sites on the net. Joba is being crucified everywhere else, but here, the mere mention that jumping on a trampoline might have been a dumb move is lambasted.

I'm sorry, but fuck that. This is a story of a baseball player making a dumb choice, and now he's paying for it. Pointing that out doesn't make anyone a jackass, because it's the truth. And I feel bad for him. It's easy to make a dumb choice. I make them all the time. Luckily for me millions and my career aren't usually resting on those dumb choices.

Hopefully Joba comes back strong, and I'm guessing he'll leave the trampoline for when he's retired.

NYDailyNews: He'd been explicitly told by the Yankee trainers not to engage in any sort of physical activity that would potentially put his arm in harm's way. You would think they wouldn't have had to tell him that, but then there had already been too many things in Chamberlain's past to indicate he wasn't gifted with a whole lot of common sense.

It was as if he had a death wish for his career and now he's succeeded. This is an injury far worse than the blown-out elbow. The broken bone on his push-off ankle was out of the skin, blood was all over the place "he could have died," surgeons reportedly said and very likely it will take more than one surgery to put everything back together... It is highly unlikely Chamberlain will ever be able to pitch again.

-----------------------

So you lock yourself in a padded room and hope that nothing bad happens to you?

Now you've lost it. Time to step away from the computer.

That's why highly paid jockeys are stupid.

Naa, getting off their horse is part of the sport. That would be comparable to Joba getting injured on a liner back to the mound.

Now a Jockey coming back from an injury hurts himself on a trampoline? Now you're on to something.

posted by justgary at 08:30 PM on March 25, 2012

The statistics back this up, anyone that has worked in an emergency room can back this up, providers of home insurance policies know this, viewers of the Simpsons know this. They've always been dangerous, and they always will be.

I've never once disputed that. I've never said that what he was doing was a good idea. I have no difficulty understanding the point. I've repeatedly stated so. My exact words earlier? "I'd have to agree that it was foolish." I'd follow it up with a 'nuff said, if you think it would help.

What I take issue with, and have all along is the people treating this story like he was on some rickety, unprotected backyard trampoline. Sure, this place has tried to take some of the danger away. Looks like it's harder to fall off. That doesn't take away all the danger. It's almost like when you wrote that, you understood the point that I was trying to make. In as few words as possible:

Backyard trampoline = dangerous, and yes, stupid for a professional athlete.

Business marketed to families involving trampolines, padding, protection, special shoes, etc = probably less dangerous, therefore probably less stupid. Certainly markets itself as safer, waiver or not. A reasonable person could enter expecting it to be safer, No? Not exactly a wise choice, but not precisely the same as the previous one. Are we clear on my point?

We've lost focus here. This isn't about the danger to the kid.

Never was my point.

So you lock yourself in a padded room and hope that nothing bad happens to you?

Now you've lost it. Time to step away from the computer.

That wasn't a straw man--read the definition you so helpfully linked to again slowly. I'm pretty sure the vast majority of readers here would recognize it as sarcasm/hyperbole/exaggeration to make a point. You seem familiar enough with sarcasm that I'll assume you actually got it, too.

Before acting like my position is so unreasonable, point me to a statistic that shows that the probability of injury at Rebounderz is the same as the overall probability of injury on a trampoline. You certainly have some anecdotal evidence, because that is why we are having this discussion. There's a ton of available evidence on trampolines in general, absolutely recognized. But in that this business exists, markets itself as a safe alternative, has been touted by the local press as a safe alternative, and has insurance, I think it's just gratuitous condescending bullshit to be so harsh on a guy for (mistakenly) relying on that representation. And yes, he fucked up. I have agreed to that repeatedly. He knows he fucked up, I'm sure. But I don't sleep better at night knowing I'm better than him because I can point out his mistake and call him stupid.

posted by tahoemoj at 10:00 PM on March 25, 2012

A reasonable person could enter expecting it to be safer, No?

No.

From the waiver:

I acknowledge that my participation in trampoline court activities and other amusement activities entails known and unanticipated risks that could result in physical or emotional injury, paralysis, death, or damage to myself, to property, or to third parties. I understand that such risks simply cannot be eliminated without jeopardizing the essential qualities of the activity. The risks include, among other things: Slipping and falling; collision with fixed objects or people; injuries including, sprains, fractures, scrapes, bruises and cuts, dislocations, pinched fingers and serious injuries to the head, back, or neck the negligence of other participants, ROL, or myself; my own physical condition; physical contact with others.

From page 2 of the waiver, required for all parents of under-age children:

YOU ARE AGREEING TO LET YOUR MINOR CHILD ENGAGE IN A POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS ACTIVITY. YOU ARE AGREEING THAT, EVEN IF ROL USES REASONABLE CARE IN PROVIDING THIS ACTIVITY, THERE IS A CHANCE YOUR CHILD MAY BE SERIOUSLY INJURED OR KILLED BY PARTICIPATING IN THIS ACTIVITY BECAUSE THERE ARE CERTAIN DANGERS INHERENT IN THE ACTIVITY WHICH CANNOT BE AVOIDED OR ELIMINATED.

When I'm asked to sign a waiver that my child or I might be killed, I tend to take that pretty seriously. You?

And yes, he fucked up. I have agreed to that repeatedly. He knows he fucked up, I'm sure. But I don't sleep better at night knowing I'm better than him because I can point out his mistake and call him stupid.

If it's OK for you to say he fucked up, why is it so objectionable that people call him stupid? Your position seems to be that you're looking at his dangerous fuckup (your assessment) rationally and compassionately, but others are smug assholes taking pleasure in his dangerous fuckup. I'm not seeing the distinction. You can think someone stupidly fucked up and still feel sorry for the stupid fucker.

posted by rcade at 11:07 PM on March 25, 2012

When I'm asked to sign a waiver that my child or I might be killed, I tend to take that pretty seriously. You?

Do you take your kid to baseball games?

Line drives, wayward throws, uncontrollable bats, steep steps, long drops from upper deck areas...lots of ways to maim/kill a child at a baseball game. It seems like a risky proposition for a child (or anyone!) to go to a game.

And yet, if Joba had been hit by a baseball while sitting in the stands, no one would have called him "stupid".

posted by grum@work at 01:58 AM on March 26, 2012

Any time any company allows the public into a place where there is any (un)imaginable chance for injury, the lawyers whip up a (usually unenforceable) waiver clause and stick it on the entrance sign/ticket/purchase area.

This place is much more dangerous than those places. You can be sure that it is because they don't stick a vague waiver of liability up in the business or on the back of the ticket. They ensure that every person that enters has signed a very explicit waiver of liability, and that the parents have signed one for the children. Surely, that is a very obvious difference here. I don't see the relationship to baseball at all. No one would be calling him stupid if his child was hurt by a ball in the stands because the risk of those injuries is very low. The American Academy of Pediatrics doesn't advise parents to keep their children away from baseball games.

If I had a young child, I'd be doing it all the time. It's called "skiing".

Okay, so don't you think parents should assess the safety of skiing before they start? There are risks in skiing, including death. Shouldn't parents know the risks and know how to minimize the risks? And, if they decide to participate in a way where the risks are high and can't really be minimized therefore possibly ruining their career, why isn't reasonable to call them stupid?

posted by bperk at 07:24 AM on March 26, 2012

If it's OK for you to say he fucked up, why is it so objectionable that people call him stupid?

You don't see a slight difference there? Have you ever fucked up? Are you stupid?

posted by tahoemoj at 09:47 AM on March 26, 2012

You don't see a slight difference there? Have you ever fucked up? Are you stupid?

Yes, I've fucked up. And when I did, I was being stupid.

You're objecting to comments by people who had the same take you did: "most people know how dangerous trampolines can be, and most agents would advise their professional athlete clients to stay off of them." Given those two things, Joba was being stupid.

posted by rcade at 10:25 AM on March 26, 2012

rcade:

I think you have an obligation to become fully aware of the risks of an activity, particularly one you're required to sign away legal rights to undertake.

Okay. People get killed skiing. You're now fully aware of that risk. Are you going to decide not to go skiing?

posted by lil_brown_bat at 11:45 AM on March 26, 2012

Rebounderz mission statement. And a trampoline (Quad Machine). So maybe I'm naive, stupid, etc., but I think a reasonable person might think one recreational activity is safer than the other.

From my third post in this thread: Just because the legal department has you sign a waiver to do something doesn't necessarily make you stupid per se for doing it. I just signed a waiver to play in a men's softball league that acknowledges that playing softball can lead to serious injury, even death (I'll scan it after work, if you'd like). Am I stupid for playing men's league softball? I make my living in a certain way; that living could be jeopardized if my brains get scrambled by a hit ball or collision with an outfield fence.

I'll (probably) bow out by just summing up that I think this comes down to a matter of degree. Sure, a professional athlete should take an extra amount of care to ensure his meal ticket. And I'll have to agree that the waiver should have raised a red flag for Chamerlain. But, c'mon. Go to the company website; it repeatedly stresses that it is a fun, safe, family friendly activity. The company logo mentions safety. So my perception is that, yes, people are being unduly harsh on the guy for his choice.

Others disagree. Fair enough.

posted by tahoemoj at 12:06 PM on March 26, 2012

rcade:

Regarding the Richardson incident, I'd never ski without a helmet nor let my kids go without.

It's interesting that in the article you quote, every authority cited (as well as the article's author) resists the conclusion that a helmet would have saved Richardson. I think they're generally a good idea, but they are counterproductive if you think they make you bulletproof, and I think the reports of Richardson's accident don't show any of the classic indicators (high speed, hitting something solid an unresisting like a tree, moderate speed combined with toilet-bowl ice) that point to a helmet making a difference.

bperk:

You don't have to do something to assess its risks.

Really? Well, I guess all I can say is that you seem to have a flexible standard for what qualifies someone to assess risk -- if something went wrong, you were an idiot and failed to assess the risk properly, but if nothing went wrong, obviously you nailed it -- and I don't think there's really any more discussion to be had here.

posted by lil_brown_bat at 04:46 PM on March 26, 2012

Oh man, this thread is awesome. We had a trampoline growing up. Loved that thing, spent a lot of time on it. Didn't follow any of the trampoline safety rules and did some pretty wild stuff. Took some bad beats on that thing too. It greatly enriched my life. How do I say, "I'm glad you guys aren't my parents" without impugning your parenting skills?

I'll comment more when I come back down from the mountains where I'm snowboarding in trees, without a helmet(I should probably get a helmet).

posted by tron7 at 12:53 AM on March 27, 2012

How do I say, "I'm glad you guys aren't my parents" without impugning your parenting skills?

I think you don't, because you realize anecdotal evidence proves nothing, at least as far as parenting skills. The strictest parents I've ever know lost a child to drowning. I don't think that makes them bad parents. I've known parents that just ignored their children and let them do whatever the hell they wanted, and their children survived and did great. I don't think that makes them good parents. I don't think that backs one set of parents being better than the other. It points to luck being involved.

Please go home and wrap your self in bubble wrap until it's time to entertain me.

Entertained? You and... who? Yankee fans don't seem to care. He was a forgotten man. Almost all comments have discussed what he's losing for himself, not what the fans are losing. I'm pretty sure you can count the number of fans crushed they won't get to see Joba pitch mid-season as a 3rd or 4th reliever out of the bullpen on one hand.

I'm amazed at the nonsense here being written just so people don't have to say that a pitcher already injured at the crossroads of his chosen career with possible millions at stake shouldn't have been on a trampoline. Ask Joba how much that decision 'enriched' his life. That's comical.

posted by justgary at 11:31 AM on March 27, 2012

I don't see why you'd be amazed, given the longtime warnings about trampolines causing permanent paralysis. Since the 1970s health officials have been warning about them. The American Academy of Pediatrics even advised in 1981, "The trampoline should never be used in home or recreational settings."

^{When I was a kid, the first purchases I vowed to make as an adult were a trampoline and the Void Indigo graphic novel my mom wouldn't let me get because she said it was too violent.}

posted by rcade at 12:19 PM on March 27, 2012

a trampoline and the Void Indigo graphic novel

Please tell me those are involved in your living will/ hospice care instructions.

posted by yerfatma at 05:13 PM on March 27, 2012

Ask Joba how much that decision 'enriched' his life. That's comical.

I wasn't even talking about Joba. I added the enriched part because I think trampolines are great and I have a lot of fond memories. I was surprised to find people who were terrified of jumping on them. I found 'trampolines of death' to be pretty comical so I guess we're all having a laugh. If you want to call Joba stupid, be my guest. To me, it depends on what he was doing on the trampoline, so I can't really make a judgement. I will say that the bigger you are the more likelihood of an injury and if he had never been on a trampoline there is a bit of a learning curve.

posted by tron7 at 07:53 PM on March 28, 2012

I'm just amazed at how many people are treating jumping up and down on trampolines like it was dirt bike racing, or base jumping, or alligator wrestling. posted by grum@work

I almost don't want to comment on this because it sure seems like you're trolling. You're the guy that whenever someone brings up a baseless assertion in a sport you bring up the statistic to show their wrong. Rightly so, and you're good at it.

Yet, no matter how many statistics are given, how many warnings are given by legitimate organizations, how many opinions are given by those familiar with trampolines, insurance companies refusing coverage, personal accounts, you ignore it all and conclude that it's just 'jumping up and down'.

But the American Academy of Pediatrics disagrees:

"Trampoline accidents have resulted in a significant number of cases of quadriplegia. In many cases, these accidents have occurred while the victims were participating in supervised physical education activities. Next to football, trampolines were found to be the highest cause of permanent paralysis in this survey."

"Therefore, the Committee on Accident and Poison Prevention of the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends that trampolines be banned from use as part of the physical education programs in grammar schools, high schools and colleges, and also be abolished as a competitive sport."

It also states that "Highly trained personnel who have been instructed in all aspects of trampoline safety must be present when the apparatus is used." It goes on to say that 'netting' does not make trampolines safe.

But the more I think of it, that's probably the problem. You've said the same waiver exists on the back of your baseball ticket, when you rent a bike, on the back of your Disney World pass. And you don't understand why it's being compared to dirt bike racing, or base jumping, or alligator wrestling.

And it seems this is in the middle. If Joba hurts himself at Walt Disney World, very few people would claim he's being irresponsible. If he was injured dirt bike racing, few would think he wasn't irresponsible. But there's a middle ground here. You can easily get hurt on a trampoline, seriously hurt. But most people just think of it as 'Jumping up and down'. I doubt they see any danger. And that's probably what Joba thought also. I think it was a clear mistake considering his situation, but an easily made one. That I wouldn't argue.

posted by justgary at 09:05 PM on March 28, 2012

It's such a weird injury I don't think it's safe to assume anything.

I agree it's strange. It's so bizarre that I wish Joba had mentioned what actually happened. Twisting an ankle doesn't do that. Not sure if we'll ever know.

posted by justgary at 09:40 PM on March 28, 2012

We apologize to Mr. Palladino and to Rebounderz, and join them in wishing Joba Chamberlain a full and fast recovery. And we urge Chamberlain, once his ankle is healed, to consider Rebounderz for his next birthday party, bar mitzvah, or regular old afternoon out with the family. Rebounderz is fun for kids of all ages, and is in no way a death trap for chubby middle relievers.

Ha.

posted by justgary at 11:34 PM on March 28, 2012