04/26/24
January 02, 2012
Colts fire vice-chair Bill Polian and g.m. Chris Polian: Indianapolis Colts owner Jim Irsay said it was just time for the team to move on. The Polians have been staples in the organization for 14 years and, with the help of draft picks such as Peyton Manning and Dwight Freeney, were a model of NFL consistency with 7 consecutive 10-win seasons from 2002 to 2010. That included a Super Bowl victory in 2007.
posted by tommytrump to football at 07:52 PM - 21 comments
I'm not at all sorry to see them go. Their whining before the NFL Competition Committee about strong, physical defense against their receivers has led to the "no touch" rules in the NFL today. Most of us "old school, smash mouth" guys feel that the prohibition against contact has gone too far. What's more, there's too much room for inconsistent interpretation from officiating crew to officiating crew, and even from play to play within the same game.
The above must be taken as coming from a Colts hater. Ever since Irsay snuck out of Baltimore on a winter midnight, breaking the hearts of a lot of Colts fans (my wife included), I have wished nothing but ill upon the team. If there is any justice, whomever they pick with the #1 will prove to be a total bust, Manning will quit on the team, and they will be stuck in the land of mediocrity for many years.
posted by Howard_T at 08:35 PM on January 02, 2012
Coach Caldwell still has his job. I hope they know what they're doing with who has to go and who gets to stay. Irsay might not be done chopping, though.
If they draft the Stanford QB and he goes on to create his own legend, they can dub the field Luck's Soil.
posted by beaverboard at 08:51 PM on January 02, 2012
One AP story ran with the following headline:
"Colts fire Polians as cleansing begins"
Housecleaning, maybe. Don't know what editor approved calling it cleansing. Not good.
posted by beaverboard at 09:16 PM on January 02, 2012
Black Monday has come and gone...
And Norv remains employed. Hm...
posted by Bonkers at 08:30 AM on January 03, 2012
And Norv remains employed. Hm...
Don't blame Turner for all of the Chargers woes. They've got a lot of money invested in horribly inconsistant players at key positions starting with their QB.
posted by cixelsyd at 09:56 AM on January 03, 2012
The Polians have built a team that has been successful year after year until this year. The Bucs should fire Dominik and try to get them to come to Florida.
I don't know what to make of their failure this year, but I think it was Caldwell's failure to make adjustments.
posted by bperk at 11:07 AM on January 03, 2012
My gut feeling has always been that Payton Manning has played his last game maybe not in the NFL but most likely for the Colts. I think the Polians are just the beginning as the coach is next and most of this is probably because there is disagreement with ownership as to the future of Payton Manning in a Colts uniform.
The Colts have a chance to draft the next franchise QB while Manning is questionable at best health wise. I also don't see Manning with his future options and potential, risking his long term health (he has had several neck surgeries) to line up next year behind a 2-14 team. I think Manning is worth the most as a trade to help the Colts rebuild for the future while he finishes out his career (if he plays at all) with solid team, that has good defense and a decent ground game that may be just an experienced QB away from a possible Super Bowl challenge. Brett Favre all over again only without all the drama and indecision. Payton Manning is one of my favorite players of all time but he is the Colts past not their future and taking a lesson from the Packers Favre - Rogers example. Sometimes you have to look toward the future and let go of the past. It would be in Manning's and the Colt's best interest at this point.
posted by Atheist at 11:12 AM on January 03, 2012
Atheist, Irsay has already said Manning is coming back unless he can't play or he doesn't want to come back. Keeping Luck on the bench a la Rodgers seems like a pretty nice move at this stage. Alternatively, the number of picks they could get for that pick would probably be impressive.
posted by bperk at 01:10 PM on January 03, 2012
Manning is due a $28M roster bonus March 1--if the Colts are not 99.999% certain he's better, Payton will not be collecting that dosh.
@Bonkers: Do not give up hope, Norv may still get the boot and perhaps Spanos just wants to not be lost in the Black Monday noise. At least those of us who believe Norv is the archetypal Great Coordinator Terrible Head Coach or real Chargers fan can hope that's still possible.
posted by billsaysthis at 01:38 PM on January 03, 2012
On NBC Sports Network yesterday, their football commentators Mike Florio and Peter King were convinced Irsay pays Manning that money regardless.
posted by rcade at 02:12 PM on January 03, 2012
Norv may still get the boot and perhaps Spanos just wants to not be lost in the Black Monday noise. At least those of us who believe Norv is the archetypal Great Coordinator Terrible Head Coach or real Chargers fan can hope that's still possible.
Just saw something on ESPN saying that the Chargers are keeping Turner and Smith. Now, I should be going out and rioting at this point, but I honestly don't know who they'd replace Turner with. Unless they had a line on a coach ahead of time that's a proven commodity, I'm not going to blame them too much. Last time we switched coaches, getting rid of Schottenheimer for Turner, I was kind of disappointed that even if they had problems with Marty, is going to Turner really going to solve anything? And this time...who's out there? I had heard rumors about Wade Phillips coming in but HOLYMOTHERFUCKINGSHIT NO, we'd be in the same boat we're in now but with a better defense.
posted by LionIndex at 02:42 PM on January 03, 2012
The Chargers really need to get rid of Norv Turner. In Marty they had a coach that could get a talented team to the playoffs and then always loose in the first round. By going with Turner they got a coach that could ensure a talented team would not even get to the playoffs. What they really need is a Jeff Fisher, Bill Cowher, or Gruden. Offensively they have tremendous talent in Rivers, Vincent Jackson, Floyd, Tolbert, Vincent Brown, Antonio Gates and others. They should have no problem offensively, maybe Wade Phillips could help them defensively and would just need a good offensive coordinator. In any case sticking with Norv Turner will be a terrible mistake. He is absolutely one of the worst head coaches in football and has done nothing but make sure one of the most talented franchises in football misses the playoffs consistently.
posted by Atheist at 03:30 PM on January 03, 2012
bperk - that is precisely what I am saying, Manning may not be able to play without substantial risk to his health in which case he retires to a multitude of big money opportunities or if he is able to play, will not want to line up behind the offensive line of a 2-14 team with no defense. The only way I see Manning playing is behind a solid and competitive team on the verge of making a real championship challenge. What other reason would he be willing to play with what his opportunities are. Money-wise is there any room for him and Luck on the same roster? Unless you make him a QB coach why would he hang around to help his replacement and take a beating in the process? Peyton Manning has nothing more to prove in the NFL as a player. I just can't see him taking a beating on that team next year while they groom the next generation of franchise QB.
The value of him to the Colts as a trade to a team with all the pieces except the great QB, would propel the Colts into a great future as they could draft luck and get some very good players and draft picks for Manning. They have got to let him go while he is still worth a lot. One more injury to his neck or problem with it will end his career and leave the Colts with nothing. They really need to take a page from the Packers and take advantage of setting themselves up as a very competitive team for the next decade rather than stick with an aging and fragile QB when they are poised to rebuild almost immediately with what they can get now.
posted by Atheist at 03:42 PM on January 03, 2012
I honestly don't know who they'd replace Turner with
Jeff Fisher? A drinking bird statue? Me?
posted by yerfatma at 04:05 PM on January 03, 2012
bperk - that is precisely what I am saying, Manning may not be able to play without substantial risk to his health in which case he retires to a multitude of big money opportunities or if he is able to play, will not want to line up behind the offensive line of a 2-14 team with no defense.
I just don't see this. The Colts are not a 2-14 team with Manning. Plus, his presence makes the offensive line better. They are a playoff team if he plays. The most the Colts ever have is an opportunistic defense like you see in the Saints, so the fact that their defense is suspect this year is hardly surprising. They were on the field far more than they are used to, so the D was bound to suffer as a result. I don't see any chance that Manning is going to be traded, and I doubt he would want to be. He is the Colts at this point.
GB can be the model. They left Rodgers on the bench for a while and it has worked out pretty well for them.
posted by bperk at 04:15 PM on January 03, 2012
I agree his ability to get rid of the ball quickly helps the offensive line tremendously but the Colts really are missing a lot of components now. Surely there could be a great argument made that Peyton Manning should get MVP because his loss this year showed just how valuable he was to the Colts even more than the great performance of Rodgers showed his value to Green Bay. Even when Brady was out a few years ago Cassel was able to keep New England from collapse. I agree Manning is the Colts, but as he ages and his health is questionable, they are going to need a lot more than Manning, and trading him along with the getting first pick will do a lot to build a much better team for the future. Especially now while he still has tremendous value. I am not sure he will have much value in a year if he doesn't get back to 100% and then how many years does he possibly have left?
Last year the Steelers lost their starting QB due to suspension for a quarter of the season and still made the Superbowl. This year the Houston Texans lost Shaub and the second string QB and still made the playoffs. Green Bay sat Rodgers down against Detroit and had a six TD pass game and threw for almost 500 yards with a first time starter. It all shows how valuable Manning is and how little they have without him. Most teams suffer if their starting QB goes down but they don't totally collapse and almost go winless. It really is time to seize the opportunity for real and dramatic retooling for them and it would also give Manning a chance at another super bowl if he is healthy enough to play with a better team. Not even Peyton Manning can get the current Colts team to the playoffs let alone another SuperBowl.
I think Manning could win a Superbowl for a team like the Ravens which has a great defense and probably only lacks that Superbowl level QB. It just seems like a win win for everybody with the exception being that Manning wouldn't play his entire career for just one team. But then again who does these days. Teams like the Jets, or Cowboys, Niners, Jaguars, Titans, or Cardinals could probably get over the hump with a Peyton Manning.
As for GB being the model, some might argue that allowing Favre to hang around as long as they did only delayed what could have happened sooner.
posted by Atheist at 05:45 PM on January 03, 2012
Colts should consult with Belichick. He knows how to pull the chain and part company with a beloved, established QB if he thinks it's time.
He did it to Kosar and Bledsoe. He'd do it to Brady if he thought it would buy him extended competitive continuity. He'd draft Luck and get value for Manning if he thought Luck could play.
If the Colts keep Caldwell, that would be a sign that Manning is coming back, because Peyton's a virtual OC when he's in uniform, and will optimize the offense on his own through sheer drive, dedication, knowledge, and work habits. You can get by with a Caldwell if you have a Manning in the building. I don't think Caldwell is the right guy to lead a team starting a top draft choice rookie QB, though.
My guess is that the Chargers would want to lock in a new GM first, then chop both Norv and Smith and let the new GM have a hand in hiring the new coach.
The thing that really aggravates me about Norv is that he tortures you on the way to bringing his team in below expectations each year. I thought his slow, twisting marches to mediocrity in Washington were gonna drive me into a clinical ward.
Some coaches don't want to work in SD because it's outside the glare of the spotlight, way down in the farthest corner of the map. Last game of the day at sunset with nobody watching.
However, if the team was to move to LA, that's different. Then they could get Chucky.
The league must be too big for its own good. Not only are too many coordinators masquerading as head coaches, but too many of them are kept on for far too long after it's clear that they're not fit for the top job.
posted by beaverboard at 06:42 PM on January 03, 2012
The league must be too big for its own good. Not only are too many coordinators masquerading as head coaches, but too many of them are kept on for far too long after it's clear that they're not fit for the top job.
I think owners and fans underestimate how hard it is for a coach to turn a team around. Even Belichick failed as a head coach when he was in Cleveland. Was he a bad coach then and a good one now or was it more than that? Dungy was fired in TB b/c he couldn't win the Super Bowl, except obviously he could. Some teams replace a coach every few years. The players never get much consistency and their growth is stunted.
posted by bperk at 08:14 PM on January 03, 2012
Belichick was a good coach in Cleveland. After painfully transitioning from Kosar to Testaverde, he took a rather ordinary Browns team to the playoffs and beat Parcells' Pats. Testaverde was viewed as extremely low value retread goods around the league when he was made the starter.
I don't consider that Belichick failed in Cleveland, but that he was ultimately tied to the guillotine by Modell's mid-season announcement that the Browns were moving to Baltimore. That created a highly poisonous and untenable situation, complete with players mailing it in and fans' anger being flung in all directions. No coach should have to go through what Belichick went through the second half of that season.
I will say that Belichick did not distinguish himself at first as the Pats' head coach. Credit to Kraft for having the patience to stick with him until he was able to deliver sustained excellence.
Dungy was never a lock to win a SB. He was very fortunate to have had the Bears as opponents in the SB that his Colts won. The Colts had failed to make it to the SB in several gut wrenching previous attempts. In those prior attempts, principally against the Pats, they were outplayed and out game planned. IMO, Dungy's finest moment was winning the AFC Championship game against the Pats just prior to his SB win. I still think he's a good coach regardless of how many major games he did or didn't win.
posted by beaverboard at 10:35 PM on January 03, 2012
Dungy was never a lock to win a SB. He was very fortunate to have had the Bears as opponents in the SB that his Colts won.
No one is a lock to win a SB. I think the most a coach can do is put his team in a position to win. You greatly increase your odds of winning if you can create consistent playoff teams. The players are still the ones that actually play the game, and coaches don't get to pick the players.
posted by bperk at 06:03 AM on January 04, 2012
The Polians are getting a raw deal since their complete incompetence in the face of Manning's injury has earned them a potential new franchise QB (though I predict he turns out to be neo-Testaverde). Manning will be back next year and they'll have Luck and the Polians get tossed for their efforts on one extraordinarily bad season.