November 10, 2009

If no one in the NBA is going to give Iverson playing time, he should go overseas. It's a shame to see such a talented player going out with a whimper.

posted by rcade at 09:16 AM on November 10, 2009

So God was wrong?

The Memphis deal never made sense on a few different levels. I'd be shocked to see AI have to resort to playing abroad, especially if he's willing to sign a 1-year deal at a less than MLE price.

I'd love to see him back in DC playing for the Wiz. A backcourt of Agent Zero and Iverson would be must watch, both on the court and off.

posted by Ufez Jones at 10:11 AM on November 10, 2009

He can retire for all I care. I'm not a fan of selfish players in any sport, and if he can't accept being a sixth man, then he'll have to accept going home and counting his money, since he doesn't have any rings to count.

posted by TheQatarian at 01:35 PM on November 10, 2009

And don't foget his infamous bitch stomp of Tyronn Lue after sinking a dagger from the baseline in that same Finals.

posted by BornIcon at 02:05 PM on November 10, 2009

Singlehandedly? You act like Matt Geiger wasn't even there! For shame, rcade. For shame.

posted by Ufez Jones at 02:47 PM on November 10, 2009

A.I. has been nothing short (no pun intended) of a Hall of Famer since his days in Philly. Sure, he may have come across as aloof at times but the guy always played his heart out, achieved tremendous success despite his lack of height/weight and earned the respect from his peers for the way he played the game.

Iverson may not won an NBA title but that doesn't mean that he's not a Hall of Famer. There are plenty of HoF'ers that haven't reached the pinnacle of their careers on the biggest stage of them all but if it weren't for Iverson, the Sixers would've never even made it to the Finals.

Call Iverson whatever you want but you must also remember that the greatest basketball player to ever play the game was also accused by his own teammates of being an asshole as detailed in the book The Jordan Rules which brought you inside the Chicago Bulls during their first championship run.

A.I. deserves more respect than to fade away into obscurity by even playing for the Grizzlies or overseas.

posted by BornIcon at 03:03 PM on November 10, 2009

Give me a break. Iverson has been an ASSHOLE since day 1.

1. As opposed to all other pro athletes.

2. He's certainly been portrayed as one. I think whether or not he is one of the interesting sports questions of the current era.

posted by yerfatma at 03:23 PM on November 10, 2009

Iverson doesn't need to win a title to cement his place in NBA lore. Charles Barkley, Patrick Ewing, Karl Malone and even John Stockton are great examples of players that had tremdous talents but never won an NBA title. Does not winning a NBA championship make them any less of Hall of Famers? Not even close but this is just one man's opinion who has watched Iverson play his entire NBA career so I'm a bit baised as I am about Jordan as well...even after reading The Jordan Rules years ago.

posted by BornIcon at 03:34 PM on November 10, 2009

There's no denying Iverson was a superlative talent. But to compare him to Jordan is ludicrous. He simply lacked the work ethic and other qualities (humility, self awareness? I'm struggling for the right adjective here) to be a great teammate and leader. Even the Sixers wanted to trade him before the 2000-2001 season when he led them to the finals and won an MVP. This guy was always trouble.

Jordan may have been considered an asshole by his teammates but he made them better and led them to six championships. All Iverson wanted and wants are his touches.

Even Iverson's experiences in high school indicated that this would end badly for him (from wikipedia).

On February 14, 1993, Iverson and several of his friends became involved in an altercation with a group of white teenagers at the Circle Lanes bowling alley in Hampton, Virginia. Iverson's crowd was raucous and had to be asked to quiet down several times, and eventually a shouting duel began with another group of youths. Shortly thereafter, a huge fight erupted, pitting the white crowd against the blacks. During the fight, Iverson allegedly struck a woman in the head with a chair. He, along with three of his friends who are also African-American, were the only people arrested. Iverson, who was 17 at the time, was convicted as an adult of the felony charge of maiming by mob, a rarely used Virginia statute that was designed to combat lynching.[4] Iverson and his supporters maintained his innocence, claiming that he left the alley as soon as the trouble began. Iverson said, "For me to be in a bowling alley where everybody in the whole place know who I am and be crackin' people upside the head with chairs and think nothin' gonna happen? That's crazy! And what kind of a man would I be to hit a girl in the head with a damn chair? I rather have em' say I hit a man with a chair, not no damn woman."[5]

After Iverson spent four months at Newport News City Farm, a correctional facility in Newport News, Virginia, he was granted clemency by Virginia Governor Douglas Wilder, and the Virginia Court of Appeals overturned the conviction in 1995 for insufficient evidence.[5]

posted by cjets at 05:07 PM on November 10, 2009

Thank you cjets for pointing out what I've been saying all along. He was good at basketball but is still an asshole.

posted by Doehead at 06:09 PM on November 10, 2009

There's no denying Iverson was a superlative talent. But to compare him to Jordan is ludicrous. He simply lacked the work ethic and other qualities (humility, self awareness? I'm struggling for the right adjective here) to be a great teammate and leader.

Some of that was true early in Iverson's pro career, but by the time he reached the NBA Finals he was a changed man and a more mature one.

I think it's bogus to dredge up that Virginia incident, which has selective prosecution written all over it. He was 17 years old, none of the whites involved in the group fight were ever arrested, the felony charge is overzealous prosecution and Iverson was granted clemency.

I know that Iverson is 34 years old but in all honesty, I would rather have Iverson in the starting lineup over OJ Mayo anyday.

There isn't a coach or GM in the league who agrees with you, or else he wouldn't have been riding the pine in Memphis.

posted by rcade at 07:10 PM on November 10, 2009

I've never understood the hatred of Iverson. None of us really know any of them, but he seems far more sincere and genuine than your average Kobe / LeBron type. He doesn't have that Disney Channel polish, but that just makes him interesting. He works hard, takes lots of punishment, plays injured, and is a phenomenal talent. He should be a starting point guard in the NBA.

posted by dusted at 08:11 PM on November 10, 2009

He works hard, takes lots of punishment, plays injured, and is a phenomenal talent.

He's also a 34 year old non-mentor who is a black hole on offense; too old to build around and on the decline. He doesn't want to practice and won't share shots with younger players. What team needs that?

posted by dfleming at 09:25 PM on November 10, 2009

Some of that was true early in Iverson's pro career, but by the time he reached the NBA Finals he was a changed man and a more mature one.

I guess that's why the Sixers were about to trade him just before the 2000 - 2001 season, unless you're saying that he matured that season? And where was his maturity when he wore out his welcome in Philly, Denver and Detroit, as well as this latest incident?

I think it's bogus to dredge up that Virginia incident, which has selective prosecution written all over it. He was 17 years old, none of the whites involved in the group fight were ever arrested, the felony charge is overzealous prosecution and Iverson was granted clemency.

It's relevant because it shows a history of poor judgement on his part. And he seems to still be showing that same poor judgement today.

It's too bad, because he did have the ability to be Jordanesque (or at least enjoy that success that Isiah Thomas, the player, had) but he kept getting in his own way.

posted by cjets at 09:28 PM on November 10, 2009

Iverson spent his first 10 seasons in Philly and asked for a trade in 2006 after three straight losing seasons when the team was entering rebuilding mode.

Really? I think it was a bit uglier than that.

Fallout with Sixers The 200506 NBA season would be the last full season for Iverson in a Sixers uniform. He averaged a career high 33.7 points per game, but the Sixers missed the playoffs for the second time in three years. He had also begun to clash with coach Jim O'Brien, and O'Brien was fired after the season.

On April 18, 2006 Iverson and Chris Webber arrived late to the Sixers' fan appreciation night and home game finale. Players are expected to report 90 minutes before game time, but both Iverson and Webber arrived around tipoff. Coach Maurice Cheeks notified the media that neither would be playing and general manager Billy King announced that Iverson and Webber would be fined.[13] During the 2006 off-season, trade rumors had Iverson going to Denver, Atlanta, or Boston. None of the deals were completed. Iverson had made it clear that he would like to stay a Sixer.[14]

On November 29, 2006 following a conflict at practice, Iverson stormed out of the gymnasium. That same evening, Iverson missed a corporate sponsor night at Lucky Strike Lanes in Philadelphia. All the 76ers besides Iverson attended this mandatory event. Iverson was fined an undisclosed amount by the 76ers. Iverson claimed he overslept after taking medication for pain related to having two abscessed teeth pulled but it was reported that Iverson told teammates earlier in the day he planned to blow off the event and was simply going to take the fine.[15]

On December 8, 2006 Iverson reportedly demanded a trade from the Sixers (although he would deny that).[16] As a result of the demand and missing practice prior to a matchup against the Washington Wizards, Iverson was told not to play nor attend any further games. During that game, which was televised nationally on ESPN, Sixers Chairman Ed Snider confirmed the trade rumors by stating "We're going to trade him. At a certain point, you have to come to grips with the fact that it's not working. He wants out and we're ready to accommodate him."[17]

He went to Denver

Who immediately became a championship contender AFTER he left. I don't have a cite for it but I believe Coach Karl got very sick of his act as well.

was traded to Detroit

On April 3, 2009, it was announced by Pistons President of Basketball Operations Joe Dumars that Iverson would not play the remainder of the 200809 season. Dumars cited Iverson's ongoing back injury as the reason for his deactivation, although two days prior Iverson stated publicly that he'd rather retire than be moved to the bench as Piston's coach Michael Curry had decided

And now there's the latest incident with the Grizzlies, not to mention his infamous "practice" rant, and his rep as a selfish me -first player. It sure seems like a bad attitude to me.

posted by cjets at 11:03 PM on November 10, 2009

All of that is minor stuff, Cjets. You probably had to go to Wikipedia just to remember any of it. It's not that unusual for a marquee player's trade from a lousy team to be preceded by some internal strife. That doesn't invalidate the 10 seasons in which he played well enough in Philly to be a 10-time All Star.

People are so eager to believe the worst of NBA stars these days it's unbelievable. He arrives late to one game and misses an event at a bowling alley, and we're talking about it three years later? Did he also get any parking tickets or tip a waitress less than 15 percent?

posted by rcade at 08:50 AM on November 11, 2009

But to compare him to Jordan is ludicrous.

The only comparisons that I said A.I. shared with Jordan is that there are some people and even teammates alike that thought they were assholes.

In the Iverson/Jordan comparison above, I'd put it this way: Jordan made his teammates better.

And in Jordan's first 7 seasons, he was known as a selfish ball hog and his teammates were being called the Jordanaires because the consensus around the league was that they would all just watch as Jordan would go 1 vs 5 and if you stopped Jordan, his teammates would not come thru in the clutch.

On February 14, 1993, Iverson and several of his friends became involved in an altercation with a group of white teenagers...

To even bring up what happened to A.I. back in 1993 is grasping for straws. He was 17 at that time, the other kids were all white, never arrested and never even charged with a crime but A.I. was the one to take the fall although he was granted clemency and all the charges were eventually dropped.

There isn't a coach or GM in the league who agrees with you..

I can live with that but that's what makes it my opinion and I'm not really that interested if any GM or NBA coach agrees with me about Iverson (remember that it was a GM that chose Darko Milicic over Carmelo Anthony and Greg Oden over Kevin Durant..what does that tell you?), I just know that after seeing the man play for over 10 years, how much heart, will & desire A.I. has for the game of basketball (which not many players have) and it kills me to see one of the greatest basketball players to ever play the game be subjected to coming off the bench when he can still provide quality minutes as a starter (since Jordan is in the conversation, even Jordan was a starter in the twilight of his career when he played for the Wizards those last 2 seasons and no one said a word about that). His job isn't to train a rookie or to be a mentor to a young player, his job is to put butts in the seat and to score and he has done a great job of that his entire career and is still capable of doing that, IMO.

Also, what people seem to forget is that Iverson never really had that go-to type of teammate. He was always paired up with a young up & comer (Jerry Stackhouse, Raja Bell, Larry Hughes) and they never meshed or some past his prime veteran (C-Webb, Mutumbo) who wasn't able to keep up with the Sixers style of play and his only teammates that he did have for a few years weren't capable of carrying a team (Eric Snow, Aaron McKie, George Lynch, Tyrone Hill) if Iverson had an off night but he still was able to carry that team to the 2001 NBA Finals against the Shaq/Kobe-led Lakers.

posted by BornIcon at 09:34 AM on November 11, 2009

You probably had to go to Wikipedia just to remember any of it. It's not that unusual for a marquee player's trade from a lousy team to be preceded by some internal strife. That doesn't invalidate the 10 seasons in which he played well enough in Philly to be a 10-time All Star.

I certainly remember him being a selfish player and a troublemaker. I went to wikipedia for the specifics as well as a cite to back up my claim.

Here's my first sentence in this post: There's no denying Iverson was a superlative talent. And he'll certainly get in the hall of fame. But the difference between him and actual NBA champions is his work ethic, his inability to be a team player and his selfishness.

Ten or twenty years from now, Iverson will be best remembered for his ranting about practice. That tells you all you need to know about him.

And dfleming, well said.

posted by cjets at 12:32 PM on November 11, 2009

Pippen and Jordan, Stockton and Malone, Kobe and Shaq, they all fed off each other...

Jordan and Pippen didn't always get along and Pippen was one of the players who felt that he could not play with Jordan because of the way that Jordan played the game.

Stockton was a natural point gaurd who pefected the pick & roll offense with Malone as the main cog of their offense.

And does the Kobe/Shaq situation really needs to be addressed? Shaq was always looking at himself as Batman to Kobe's Robin. Shaq wanted to be the dominant force behind the Lakers championship run and it wasn't until after Shaq was traded to Miami that there was even a peep about how if they stayed together for a few more years, how many championships would they have won.

..he very recently played with Carmelo Anthony, a premiere player, and Kenyon Martin, Nene, Marcus Camby and J.R. Smith, all above average players. How, exactly, was that not a good supporting cast?

Melo has only recently learned how to use his ability to the upmost potential and that was because he had to grow up himself (suspended for DUI, suspended for insubordination). Melo has shown flashes of brilliance in the past but it wasn't until after playing in the Olympics and winning a gold medal did he see what was needed in order to become a star-caliber player in the NBA. Playing alongside Kobe, LeBron & Wade helped Melo develop into the player we see today.

Kenyon Martin? Nene? Marcus Camby? J.R. Smith? Are you kiddin' me?

Kenyon is nowhere near to the player he was when he was with the Nets. He's a respectable, hard nosed defender but com'on now. Nene is not a star player but decent in the paint and Marcus Camby (I laugh just saying his name) is playing for the Clippers I believe. J.R. Smith is still a fairly young player but is inconsistant. He may score 30 on one game but the next game he may have a goose egg.

I'm not putting a halo over Iverson's head, I just feel that after 10 years of playing in Philly and basically carrying that franchise on his back for all those years, he deserved better than to be stuck on a Grizzlies team that is not going to the playoffs anytime soon. Iverson should have had the opportunity to sign with a team that has a chance to win but also needs a player like him to fill that void of a scorer.

Like I said, I know that A.I. isn't the same player that he once was in Philly but I'm sure that he can still provide some decent minutes and would be willing to come off the bench but not for a team like the Grizzlies. At least there, he should be a starter.

Ten or twenty years from now, Iverson will be best remembered for his ranting about practice.

Maybe you will but I'll remember A.I. for this and for this. I do still love the practice rant and the fact that he can make fun of it.

posted by BornIcon at 12:39 PM on November 11, 2009

Ten or twenty years from now, Iverson will be best remembered for his ranting about practice. That tells you all you need to know about him.

You remember him as a troublemaker, so you went looking for examples of trouble you didn't actually remember. It's self-fulfilling.

But as you said, he's a superlative talent, so that practice rant isn't all we need to know about him. A.I. will be remembered as an amazing scorer who could put the fear of God in defenders despite an 165-lb. frame., and he'll be known as someone who lifted a team starting Aaron McKie, Tyrone Hill, George Lynch and Theo Ratliff to the NBA Finals.

posted by rcade at 12:47 PM on November 11, 2009

Melo has only recently learned how to use his ability to the upmost potential and that was because he had to grow up himself (suspended for DUI, suspended for insubordination). Melo has shown flashes of brilliance in the past but it wasn't until after playing in the Olympics and winning a gold medal did he see what was needed in order to become a star-caliber player in the NBA. Playing alongside Kobe, LeBron & Wade helped Melo develop into the player we see today.

Kenyon Martin? Nene? Marcus Camby? J.R. Smith? Are you kiddin' me?

'Melo was a star before AI came in town; I'm not sure how you can be so revisionist, but putting up 29ppg and 6rpg and being on the All-Star team is the definition of a star. That was when AI was in town. How many all-stars do you want on a single team? Boston's a unique situation but most teams win with two stars and role players.

Camby, in 2006-07, was the defensive player of the year. He's a 4 time all-NBA defender and an elite rebounder. Not bad for a center.

Nene and J.R. show flashes, but they're young talent. Martin is a rugged forward, not a star anymore, but a role player.

It's hard to think this roster with, say, Dwayne Wade, or Kobe, or LeBron, or even Dwight Howard, wouldn't be a lock to go to the finals. They were far from it with AI at the helm, which seems proof enough that he's not at the level you seem to make him out to be.

posted by dfleming at 03:04 PM on November 11, 2009

If you disagree with me fine. Please do me the favor of not telling me what I did or did not remember.

I'm just going by what you said. It seemed pretty clear from your first Wikipedia fishing expedition that for all of Iverson's oh-so-terrible rep, you didn't have a very strong grasp of anything bad he supposedly did.

Before 2001, I was in the same boat as you were. I'd heard so often that he was a bad guy I took it as a given. But I revisited the subject, and what I found was an incredible player whose bad rep is largely undeserved.

posted by rcade at 03:38 PM on November 11, 2009

Just by putting up decent numbers doesn't automatically makes him a star.

Decent numbers? Try top 3 scoring numbers. He didn't put up decent numbers; he'd be the top scorer on 91% of the teams in the NBA that season.

I never said anything about Carmelo not being a star player in the NBA, just go back and re-read what I wrote because that's not in there.

I quote: "it wasn't until after playing in the Olympics and winning a gold medal did he see what was needed in order to become a star-caliber player in the NBA."

If you need something to become something, you're not that thing already. If you need an experience to become a star-caliber player, you're not already a star-caliber player, no?

posted by dfleming at 04:13 PM on November 11, 2009

If you need something to become something, you're not that thing already. If you need an experience to become a star-caliber player, you're not already a star-caliber player, no?

Carmelo was always on the verge of becoming a star, especially coming out of Syracuse after leading them into their first NCAA championship. The problem was that 'Melo lacked the maturity off the court which seemed to always get him in trouble. A star-caliber player has to be professional (on & off the court) and it took playing with other star players in the Olympics for 'Melo to truly undertsand what it takes (on & off the court) to get the best out of his abilities and it shows this year with the way that he's taken more of a leadership role with the Nuggets.

But back to the point about Iverson. The only thing I want to finish with this topic is that Iverson has proven that he is one of the greatest little men to ever play the game. He has proven himself to be in the upper echelon of star players and he has achieved almost everything there is to achieve in the NBA without winning a championship. You just don't put a player like Iverson on a young team that has no playoff hopes for this season especially when he can still provide the scoring that he's always displayed.

posted by BornIcon at 07:41 AM on November 12, 2009