12/03/24
September 08, 2009
Carson Palmer: 'Somebody is Going to Die': "Guys are getting so big, so fast, so explosive. The game's so violent. Now that they're cutting out the wedge deal on kickoff returns, those guys [are] coming free, and at some point somebody is going to die in football. And I hope it's not anyone at this table, and I hope it doesn't happen, obviously. Everyone talks about the good old days, when guys were tough and quarterbacks got crushed all the time, but back in the day, there weren't defensive ends that were Mario Williams -- 6-7, 300 pounds, 10 percent body fat, running a 4.7 40." -- Cincinatti Bengals quarterback Carson Palmer
I think Palmer meant that guys are getting so big and fast that one wrong hit (such as a full speed helmet-to-helmet hit) is going to cause someone to die, which is why so many steps are being taken to protect QBs. I'd almost worry more about receivers doing crossing routes than QBs, since the force is doubled with each player (receiver and defensive back) running at each other. The sorts of deaths noted by Atheist aren't what Palmer was talking about, though we should be concerned about those as well.
posted by TheQatarian at 02:39 PM on September 08, 2009
That's how I took it too. Palmer's talking about deaths that come from a hit. I'd hope that protective gear is making it harder for players to suffer catastrophic injuries on the field. One change I've noticed is that helmets fly off a lot more often these days, which I've surmised is a design decision to dissipate the energy of a collision.
posted by rcade at 03:24 PM on September 08, 2009
Didn't a L.A. Avenger die from a hit in an Arena Football League game ?
posted by tommybiden at 03:28 PM on September 08, 2009
Atheist, nice work removing the context for your straw man. Palmer was discussing the possibility of a death directly caused by tackling/blocking in a pro game, specifically mentioning rules changes for special teams play this season, and that the NFL is now more dangerous. As far as I can tell no NFL player has died due to injuries from contact in the modern era; the article behind the WikiAnswer you cut/pasted doesn't mention any.
I don't think he's right - there has been a decline in the last 20 years in spinal injuries, rules and equipment are changing - but I doubt he is clueless to the dangers.
posted by deflated at 03:29 PM on September 08, 2009
Human body can only take so much impact before it says "Bugger this, I'm off". I know I wouldn't one of those guys charging at me.
Atheist: FAIL~!
posted by Drood at 04:07 PM on September 08, 2009
Yup. There was an arena player who died after a hit back in 2005.
posted by rcade at 04:38 PM on September 08, 2009
As someone who is close to the cohort including pros like QB Rob Johnson, I have always been awed by the bravado it takes to stand in there like these guys do. Reading Blind Side by Michael Lewis also gives a pretty decent history on the evolution of the game as it relates to this issue. No, not so much the stats on serious injuries, but the increasing likelihood that they will occur. As Palmer says, these guys are freaks! Some more aptly named than others ... but freaks all the same.
We do all love the "savage hit", but these guys do need to be protected. Of course there are times it looks like the refs are splittin' hairs on some of the less violent collisions, but lines need to be drawn and enforced full-time if they are going to be effective over time.
posted by Spitztengle at 04:55 PM on September 08, 2009
I wouldn't say we all LOVE the savage hit. I find them awe inspiring, but also I wonder what the fuck it's doing to their bodies.
posted by Drood at 05:20 PM on September 08, 2009
Darryl Stingley, while a member of the New England Patriots, was left a quadriplegic after suffering a broken neck induced by a hit from Jack Tatum. Although he didn't die as an immediate result of the injury, his premature death is considered to be related to his condition.
posted by Howard_T at 05:35 PM on September 08, 2009
but also I wonder what the fuck it's doing to their bodies.
And we could also add: to their minds as well.
This issue is far from "new" to us here at SpoFi. Doing a quick search, Drood, you posted a story on the physics of a football hit a while back too. And we also discussed the same thing here, when it was a really hot topic.
Not addressing this issue is negligent. It may not be immediate death by contact, but the slow (or "quick" if suicide is the way out for some as has been the case) and agonizing death as a result of cumulative traumas IS a reality for modern NFLers.
Having a sociology background, I find it interesting to ask the question of how history will remember us in this historical moment, especially when we have full knowledge of the risks and impacts of "our" activities. Will "that's just the price to be paid" suffice? Or will it be asked why we didn't do more to change it?
I wouldn't say we all LOVE the savage hit.
And to this point, I agree. I was a bit too general when I said the we do all love them. Your point is right on the money though ... it's the paradox of knowing it's gonna hurt someone, but the thrill of the spectacle still holds (many of) us captive.
posted by Spitztengle at 06:46 PM on September 08, 2009
posted by tommybiden at 06:50 PM on September 08, 2009
I was kinda including the brains in their bodies. I know it's causing concussions, which by themselves aren't too bad, but if you get ANOTHER one before the first has healed, that can cause serious injury.
One reason I don't watch much wrestling anymore is the fact I find it hard to watch certain guys because of Chris Benoit and the damage his brain had suffered from years of diving headbutts etc... Of course that served as a wakeup call for the industry to a degree, but it really sucks when a wrestler is pulled from a show due to suffering a concussion, and the fucking fans BOO him for not endangering his life and health for the assholes. (This happened to new WWE signee Nigel McGuinness a year or two ago at a Ring of Honor show. Fuckers BOOED him putting his health first.)
posted by Drood at 10:37 PM on September 08, 2009
The game's so violent. Now that they're cutting out the wedge deal on kickoff returns, those guys [are] coming free, and at some point somebody is going to die in football.
I don't understand this point..unless I'm misreading that, he seems to be saying that REMOVING the wedge is going to cause someone to be killed. They are removing it to PREVENT injuries, as previously you had a "wedge buster" who did nothing but hurl himself full speed into a mass of several hundred pounds of blockers. Now that you have 2 man wedges, there's no need for this full speed collision into that mass. I think this rule change helps player safety, not hurt it.
As for Palmer's concern for QBs, I don't care how big/strong/fast a DE/LB is, to actually kill a QB with a hit while he's in the pocket would take astronomical odds. They just can't build up enough speed in a 5-10 yard sprint (especially with the QB standing still, thus minimizing impact).
Now full-sprint down field, with both players traveling in opposite directions (i.e. special teams or a downfield pass of an unprotected receiver), that's equivalent to 30-40mph car crashes.
posted by bdaddy at 11:48 PM on September 08, 2009
The game's so violent.
Yup. Always has been. The people that love and play the game are aware of the risks, as are those that merely watch. I'm ready for some football.
Football is not a contact sport, it's a collision sport - dancing is a contact sport.
-Vincent Thomas Lombardi
Football is, after all, a wonderful way to get rid of your aggressions without going to jail for it.
- Heywood Hale Broun
Trying to maintain order during a legalized gang brawl involving 80 toughs with a little whistle, a hanky and a ton of prayer.
-Anonymous referee, explaining his job
I like to believe that my best hits border on felonious assault.
-Jack Tatum
At the base of it was the urge, if you wanted to play football, to knock someone down, that was what the sport was all about, the will to win closely linked with contact.
-George Plimpton
Football combines the two worst things about America: it is violence punctuated by committee meetings.
-George F. Will
You have to play this game like somebody just hit your mother with a two-by-four.
-Dan Birdwell
Let's face it, you have to have a slightly recessive gene that has a little something to do with the brain to go out on the football field and beat your head against other human beings on a daily basis.
-Tim Green
I wouldn't ever set out to hurt anyone deliberately unless it was, you know, important -like a league game or something.
- Dick Butkus
Pro football is like nuclear warfare. There are no winners, only survivors.
- Frank Gifford
Most football teams are temperamental. That's 90% temper and 10% mental.
-Doug Plank
Baseball is what we were, football is what we have become.
- Mary McGrory
posted by mjkredliner at 02:01 AM on September 09, 2009
The people that love and play the game are aware of the risks
People have been aware of the risks of driving cars for decades, yet manufacturers continue to add safety devices.
posted by yerfatma at 09:29 AM on September 09, 2009
(This happened to new WWE signee Nigel McGuinness a year or two ago at a Ring of Honor show. Fuckers BOOED him putting his health first.)
I remember when that happened. It's a shame that people cannot envision themselves in that situation and what they would do if they were in those shoes.
posted by BornIcon at 02:44 PM on September 10, 2009
Well just to inform Carson Palmer of a little fact, football has caused many deaths and very serious near fatal injuries already. High school football has proven even more dangerous than professional football due to the fact that there is a bigger disparity in the talent levels and sizes of the participants.
Football is dangerous, but so are a lot of sports. Is he saying anything that isn't already common knowledge?
Carson - somebody already has died-
According to The National Center for Catastrophic Sports Injury, 325 men and boys have died either directly or indirectly from playing football at the high school and college level between 1982-2008 (26 years). Direct injuries are defined as those fatalities which resulted directly from participation in the fundamental skills of football (such as tackling and blocking). Indirect injuries are those injuries that are caused by systemic failure as a result of exertion while participating in football activity or by a complication which was secondary to a nonfatal injury (such as heart failure and heat stroke).
Professional Football
24 Oct 1971: Churck Hugues, wide receiver with the Detroit Lions, died of a heart attack during a game with the Chicago Bears in Tiger Stadium. His teammates were informed of his death before leaving the stadium.
22 Jul 1979: James Victor Cain, tight end with the St. Louis Cardinals, died of congenital heart failure during training camp.
01 Aug 2001: Korey Stringer, offensive lineman with the Minnesota Vikings, died of heatstroke during the second day of practice with full pads. His core temperature reached 108 degrees. He died within 24 hours of being removed from the field.