11/21/24
May 29, 2008
Fines will be imposed for clear cases of flopping:: The league office has yet to determine exact fine amounts for offending flops and how fines might escalate for repeat offenders, but in-game arena observers and video reviewers will be instructed to report instances of theatrical flopping for potential punishment as part of postgame reports on officiating and other matters.
posted by DudeDykstra to basketball at 11:35 AM - 32 comments
Sounds good to me. Flopping is one of the worst aspects of the NBA. If they stick to very clear cases it should work.
posted by aerotive at 11:48 AM on May 29, 2008
What is a clear case of flopping? This has disaster written all over it, in my opinion. I hate flopping with a passion, but I would rather see the refs just stop calling charges on players who run into floppers. Fining players doesn't seem to fit here.
posted by curlyelk at 12:08 PM on May 29, 2008
Well, I guess that ends the Manu Ginobli era entire San Antonio Spurs franchise for a few years... But yeah, I'm not sure how you call egregious- however, the article clearly notes these things would be assessed on video after the game and not as in-game subjective judgments. So I think with slo-mo review you could have a good idea of legitimate flops. I agree with curlyelk that at the very least they should stop calling charges that are simply about acting on the part of the flopper. Beyond that, better than fines or even suspensions- which would be very emotionally satisfying but tough to enforce consistently- would be for the refs to simply note the floppers, and adjust their refereeing accordingly: floppers do what they do because it works. If they stop getting the benefit, and even suffer the penalty of the Boy Who Cried Flop, they won't do it as much. I recall just a game or two ago the announcers even commenting on how good Richard Hamilton is at making incidental contact look like third-degree assault. If the TNT analysts can notice this, there's no good excuse for the NBA and its referees not also adjusting to give Hamilton and others far fewer foul calls or even allowing for him to be fouled more easily without an actual call.
posted by hincandenza at 12:19 PM on May 29, 2008
I know people complain a lot about flopping in soccer, and I am curious if any professional soccer leagues have ever done anything like this (create some system that addresses flopping). Have they? Shouldn't they?
posted by DudeDykstra at 12:35 PM on May 29, 2008
And I think players getting fined for flopping would be effective. I think it would be a matter of pride for these macho men. You wouldn't want to be amongst the league leaders in fine dollars for flopping. Plus, the fine system may serve the purpose that Hal describes above. By fining players each time they flop, you get a database of who has been caught flopping the most. This would be a tough stat set (if it was thorough and uncompromising) for the referees to ignore.
posted by DudeDykstra at 12:40 PM on May 29, 2008
How exactly woud this work??? Or an even better question, is flooping ncessary? I'm not saying I am a big fan of the dramatics, BUT did anyone happen to see that San Antonio/Laker game the other day? Apparently Barry should have given in to a little floppage and who knows MAYBE there would be a series going on in the West. I saw where the NBA has "acknowledged" there should have been a call made BUT what does that mean? All I'm saying is that if the Refs were more consistent about what is and what isn't a foul, maybe players wouldn't have to OVER do it when they get bumped enough to really affect their game.
posted by emancipated107 at 12:53 PM on May 29, 2008
Well, I guess that ends the Manu Ginobli era entire San Antonio Spurs franchise for a few years... You beat me to it hal. It was disgusting watching Ginobli in the 2005 finals. He would drive the lane, heave up a shot, and then collapse like he was shot. And the worst part was he almost always got the call.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 01:11 PM on May 29, 2008
if any professional soccer leagues have ever done anything like this Sure. The NHL has a rule as well. It almost never gets enforced. It'd be interesting to see what they'd do with an incident like last night, where Ray Allen might have exaggerated* his contact with Lindsey Hunter and the subsequent foul call resulted in 'Sheed getting a technical. Would they reverse that if he was right that it was "bullshit"? * In Ray's defense, it was like the 3rd time he'd been clobbered on that possession.
posted by yerfatma at 01:48 PM on May 29, 2008
This is silly. If something is not against the rules of the game(like taking a dive in hockey is), players should not be fined for it. As much as I hate watching it, unless the league creates an in-game penalty for it, they should not fine the players. I think instead of fines they should make floppers wear a pink wrist band on their shooting arm for every flop from the previous game. In addition every compilation of 15 flops would result in a pink tear drop tatto on the offenders cheek below their eye. Laimbeer would have run out of space.....he may not have been the first flopper, but very few have ever done it better. That and they need to get rid of the "Shaq no charge zone" under the basket.
posted by Hannibal at 02:01 PM on May 29, 2008
Apparently Barry should have given in to a little floppage and who knows MAYBE there would be a series going on in the West. It annoys me that they are dissecting that play because it was the last play of the game, but don't talk about all the other fouls missed.
posted by bperk at 02:55 PM on May 29, 2008
Apparently Barry should have given in to a little floppage and who knows MAYBE there would be a series going on in the West. It annoys me that they are dissecting that play because it was the last play of the game, but don't talk about all the other fouls missed. Or how he traveled on that play...Or how the Laker's shot right beforehand hit the rim and the shot clock should have been reset...
posted by jmd82 at 03:58 PM on May 29, 2008
I'd rather see the league start enforcing the travelling call. Flopping cheapens the game, but taking three steps from the free throw line to slam the ball makes a mockery of it.
posted by Shotput at 04:32 PM on May 29, 2008
So as I understand this, they would have "observers" at various places around the court. Would they carry numbered cards, as the figure skating judges do, and have only those flops that exceed a certain average score qualify as true offenses deserving of a fine? There would be no Russian judges allowed, please. Perhaps, the amount of the fine would be determined by the score on the judges' cards. The trouble with this is that some players would actually try to get a perfect 10 just for bragging rights. The offense that really drives me nuts is the Reggie Miller-style kick after shooting that is called a foul. If anything, this ought to be an offensive foul, resulting in any made field goal being nullified and posession being given to the defenders. I dislike the idea that a shooter can initiate contact and be rewarded for it. This is far worse than flopping.
posted by Howard_T at 05:16 PM on May 29, 2008
I'm all for this rule. I have hated the pro wrestling feel to the NBA style basketball for years. This is a good first step, now they need to address the travelling calls, or lack thereof.
posted by dviking at 06:54 PM on May 29, 2008
if any professional soccer leagues have ever done anything like this The thing to remember about soccer, unlike most American sports, is that leagues do not set their own rules (as far as officiating the game is concerned): it is called the "world's game" for a reason. Everyone, everywhere, whether it be the Premier League in England or some amateur village league in central Africa, is playing by the exact same rules (ie, the Laws of the Game). Leagues don't set their own rules: FIFA does (or to be technically correct, the International Football Association Board does). The best that the various national football associations and leagues can do is to give their referees guidelines about how to interpret the Laws of the Game. Flopping/diving/simulation has always been against the rules in soccer if it is an attempt to cheat so as to gain an undeserved free kick or penalty kick. The problem is that the game is fast flowing and non-stop and there is no time to watch replays; it is therefore very rare for a ref to penalize a player for flopping; more commonly these attempts to draw a call are simply ignored by the ref unless they are extremely blatant. There have been proposals in soccer to do after-match video analysis to punish floppers, too, but there are similiar objections to this in soccer as there is in basketball. The problem has gotten worse as the game has internationalized; different countries have different cultural tolerances for flopping/diving/simulation. In Britain, North American and parts of northern Europe for instance it is very much frowned on but in Latin America or parts of southern Europe it is more likely to be accepted as "part of the game". That wasn't a big deal when the game was isolated within each country but now that you have players from all over the world playing in top leagues all over the world, you have conflicts over just how much of this sort of thing is tolerable. Soccer and basketball are quite similar in this respect in being international games. Interesting how flopping is allegedly an issue that will ensure that soccer will allegedly "never" be acceptable to Americans, yet flopping isn't an issue with basketball being acceptable to Americans.
posted by dave2007 at 06:59 PM on May 29, 2008
The offense that really drives me nuts is the Reggie Miller-style kick after shooting that is called a foul. If anything, this ought to be an offensive foul, resulting in any made field goal being nullified and posession being given to the defenders. I dislike the idea that a shooter can initiate contact and be rewarded for it. This is far worse than flopping. That is actually an offensive foul (as of a few years ago), and it was instituted because of Reggie Miller... Or how he traveled on that play...Or how the Laker's shot right beforehand hit the rim and the shot clock should have been reset... My thoughts exactly. The NBA is stupid for coming out after the game and questioning the ref's call. The players can't do it, so why should the league. Part of any sport is bad calls and make up calls...
posted by docshredder at 07:50 PM on May 29, 2008
Or how he traveled on that play...Or how the Laker's shot right beforehand hit the rim and the shot clock should have been reset... I agree in principle here. I didn't see the end of the game, but the part I saw seemed poorly officiated. That's a shame for a conference finals game.
posted by skifan at 11:27 PM on May 29, 2008
To all the Spurs haters,I agree Manu flops alot (i get especially irrited when he drives the lane, heaves up a prayer and, whether he makes it or not, immediately put his hand on his mouth like he got popped) but there are players that are plenty worse. kirilenko comes to mind as well as derek fisher. CONSPIRACY THEORY ALERT: All the flopping in the world doesn't matter because the NBA decides before the game starts who is going to win. It's been pretty obvious to me that, since the playoffs have started, the NBA is going to do anything to get the lakers/celtics into the finals so they can try to rekindle the good old days from magic/larry. How many times must I watch kobe duck his shoulder and bull through a defender to get a basket and not get called for charging? Or how about Duncan getting knocked on his ass while making a shot and not getting an "and one" call. Better yet, the jersey grabbing celtics that seem to never get called for anything they do wrong. The NBA is the perfect opportunity to pull of this stunt because the referees are in a perfect position to add/take points off the board and virtually control every aspect of a game including killing momentum. David Stern is as crooked any as commisioner in pro sports. He fixed the NBA draft in 1986 for christs sake, does any one really think he would turn a blind eye pre determining games if it was going to make a little extra money. and for anyone who thinks my opinionis wrong or that it's just down right bullshit i give you tim doneghy(or however you spell his name. I d not believe he was the only NBA ref to pull this crap off and he already he admitted he would ref games in his favor. Instead of trying to punish floppers I say do something so that the officiating is more even.
posted by ksb122 at 10:55 AM on May 30, 2008
I'm a die hard Pistons fan but I wouldn't go as far to say there is a conspiracy against them. Especially not after watching them in game three.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 10:58 AM on May 30, 2008
Rasheed Wallace dropped a few F-bombs (click the video on the top right of the page) after a recent game and now Henry Abbott is championing him as the NBA's Vice Commissioner of Anti-Flopping.
posted by wfrazerjr at 01:17 PM on May 30, 2008
All the flopping in the world doesn't matter because the NBA decides before the game starts who is going to win. Neither the Spurs nor the Pistons would have ever glimped the NBA finals if this was the case. Have you so quickly forgotten the ratings killer that was the NBA finals last year with the Spurs/Cavs?
posted by bperk at 01:18 PM on May 30, 2008
Nice post dave2007, I think what you wrote about how globalization of soccer has created cultural problems about what is fair play and what is cheating is dead on. The same goes for basketball. Players from Argentina or Serbia or Italy will always bring these "gamesmanship" aspects to any sport. For those of you who think that the league will be able to shame guys like Ginobili into not flopping (pink armbands and all that), you are dead wrong. That kind of "cheating" is so ingrained in his culture (and many others) that its not just accepted, it's applauded. If you do it well, you are admired and respected.
posted by sic at 02:30 PM on May 30, 2008
That is actually an offensive foul (as of a few years ago), and it was instituted because of Reggie Miller... Then why is it rarely called that way? Most of the times I have seen it, it was called against the defender, most recently Chauncey Billups vs Rajan Rondo in Celtics vs Pistons, game 4.
posted by Howard_T at 04:11 PM on May 30, 2008
The yellow card for diving in assoc. football has been used more in recent years, but it's most prominent in penalty box situations, where the referee is usually compelled to do something: you either point to the spot or you punish the offender. (Or you can just let it go, but that doesn't happen too often these days.) In basketball, I think calling the T for an egregious flop -- especially situations where the flopper is trying to turn a regular foul into a flagrant one -- is more appropriate than an after-match fine. It's unsporting conduct, and it's more T-worthy than swearing in the officials' earshot.
posted by etagloh at 10:30 PM on May 30, 2008
especially situations where the flopper is trying to turn a regular foul into a flagrant one -- is more appropriate than an after-match fine. That's becoming harder to do, though. During the playoffs, it hasn't even been so much flopping for me, but even on clear fouls that get called, players act like they've just been shot by their mother while the offender is in complete shock that a foul was committed.
posted by jmd82 at 11:44 PM on May 30, 2008
There wouldn't be so much flopping around if the refs actually called offensive fouls. Which they rarely do. Especially with marquee players, which is total bullshit. I dunno. I've watched a lot of playoff games this season and a bunch of games down the regular season stretch and the thing that most bugs me about the NBA is the totally inconsistent refereeing.
posted by mkn at 01:34 AM on May 31, 2008
Agreed. While there is bound to be some human error the NBA is known for giving stars special treatment and having inconsistant refereeing. Instead of focusing on the way players dress perhaps David Stern should focus fixing the league's officiating problems.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 09:12 AM on May 31, 2008
Semi-related: did anyone see that Salvatore offensive foul call against Paul Pierce when he was shooting a 3 in Game 6 of the Pistons/Celtics series? Michael Wilbon rightly called it "The worst call in the history of the playoffs". It was arguably a travel call (only in that his pivot foot did shuffle a tiny bit), but that's moot given that this was as much a "My bookie wants to make sure the Pistons cover the spread" call as any I've seen. http://youtube.com/watch?v=X5xQExrt0aA&fmt=18 So I think we can all agree: refs suck, man! When they're not gambling on the games, they're just plain incompetent. If Stern weren't an awful human being in every facet of his person, he'd probably do something to fix the officiating. Guess he's too busy helping steal the Sonics from Seattle by breaking a binding arena contract when their "I'll take my team and go home!" foot stomping attempt to get a new stadium at taxpayer expense didn't work...
posted by hincandenza at 01:56 PM on May 31, 2008
I'm still trying to convince my wife that my reaction to that call wasn't overstated. She's not buying it.
posted by yerfatma at 06:43 AM on June 02, 2008
I was at the game and where we were sitting nobody could figure out why Paul Pierce was called for that foul. Not that we were complaining...
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 08:47 AM on June 02, 2008
CONSPIRACY THEORY ALERT: All the flopping in the world doesn't matter because the NBA decides before the game starts who is going to win. It's been pretty obvious to me that, since the playoffs have started, the NBA is going to do anything to get the lakers/celtics into the finals so they can try to rekindle the good old days from magic/larry. Here's my theory: The Lakers had the best record in the West, a strong indicator that they were the best team in the West. The Celtics had the best record in the East (and the league), a strong indicator that they were the best team in the East. The two best teams end up in the Finals. Conspiracy?
posted by docshredder at 06:22 PM on June 02, 2008
Hell Yes I say. Curious how people think they are going to regulate this (seems like a VERY subjective thinig to officiate) but at the same time, I for one hate all the flopping in the NBA and am glad to see them disincentivize it in some way.