11/05/24
March 18, 2006
Mexico's Ayala Out For Season: Finally, the thing MLB dreaded the most. Washington's bullpen takes a hit as one of the best setup men in the game needs Tommy John surgery. To complicate the matter, Washington had pleaded with MLB to keep Ayala from playing because he had surgery during the off-season, and they didn't think he was strong enough to pitch in game situations.
posted by BullpenPro to baseball at 11:30 AM - 30 comments
Wow, that has got to suck. I don't know if I should be pissed at him for taking the risk, or be proud of him for wanting to represent his country so bad. But on the business side, he was told he wasn't healthy enough. I wonder if the Nats will try to recoup his salary this year? I also put blame on Bud Selig for caring too much for his "baby" then players' health. He should have stepped in.
posted by wingnut4life at 01:18 PM on March 18, 2006
I would like to see what Ayala's contract says in terms of injuries and orginization preferences. I personally think that he had the right to make a decision on whether he wanted to play or not, but I think that the Nationals should not have to pay him at least 3/4 of his salary, especially since he went agianst their best wishes.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 01:27 PM on March 18, 2006
So what? Its not like this same thing could have happened in spring training. Ayala could have had the same thing happen to him had he stayed in training camp. Instead he chose to go and serve his country. His methods should not be questioned. He made a good choice to serve his country. He just got hurt. Shit happens guys.
posted by chemwizBsquared at 02:50 PM on March 18, 2006
I wonder if the owners will make Selig take some insurance out for them on the players who play in the WBC next year. Something will be done. You can't go paying millions to a player only to see him get hurt in somebody else's exhibition game.
posted by roberts at 04:07 PM on March 18, 2006
I'm totally with chemwiz on this one. This could have happened anywhere, and it just happened to occur at the WBC for Ayala. Unfortunate, yes, but it's no one's fault, and trying to blame Bud or anyone else is stupid. And I think trying to say that Selig doesn't care about the players' health is a bit crass. It's not like he wanted someone to get hurt. It just happened.
posted by TheQatarian at 04:23 PM on March 18, 2006
How many of these injuries can be blamed on the WBC.... Injuries Arizona Diamondbacks Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/17/2006 Craig Counsell 2B Shoulder Out Out until at least late March 03/15/2006 Orlando Hernandez SP Back Out Out until at least mid-March 03/13/2006 Brandon Medders RP Shoulder Out Out until late March 02/11/2006 Felix Heredia RP Suspended Suspend Suspended for first 10 days of 2006 season Atlanta Braves Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/17/2006 John Foster RP Elbow Out Out until at least early April 03/16/2006 Carlos Almanzar RP Elbow Out Out until at least July 03/16/2006 Mike Hampton SP Elbow Out Out for the season 03/15/2006 Wilson Betemit 3B Ribs Out Out until at least mid-March 03/14/2006 Macay McBride RP Forearm Out Out until at least mid-March Baltimore Orioles Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/13/2006 Jay Gibbons RF Hamstring Questionable Out until at least mid-March 03/13/2006 Todd Williams RP Shoulder Out Out until at least mid-March 03/07/2006 Brian Roberts 2B Elbow Out Out until at least late March 03/03/2006 Aaron J. Rakers RP Shoulder Out Out for the season Boston Red Sox Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/17/2006 Ken Huckaby C Knee Out Out until at least mid-March 03/13/2006 Keith Foulke RP Knee Out Out until late March 03/13/2006 David Wells SP Knee Out Out until late March 02/23/2006 Gabe Kapler OF Achilles' Out Out until at least May Chicago Cubs Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/17/2006 Mark Prior SP Shoulder Out Out until at least April 03/16/2006 Wade Miller SP Shoulder Out Out until at least May 02/25/2006 Kerry Wood SP Shoulder Out Out until at least mid-April Chicago White Sox Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/16/2006 Jose A. Contreras SP Elbow Questionable Out until at least mid-March 03/14/2006 Dustin Hermanson RP Back Out Out until late March 03/13/2006 Scott Podsednik LF Shoulder Questionable Out until at least mid-March Cincinnati Reds Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/16/2006 Grant Balfour RP Elbow, shoulder Out Out until at least mid-July 03/13/2006 William Bergolla 2B Groin Out Out until at least mid-March 03/13/2006 Aaron Harang SP Shoulder Out Out until mid-March 03/13/2006 Eric Milton SP Calf Out Out until mid-March 03/13/2006 Paul Wilson SP Shoulder Out Out until late March Cleveland Indians Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return No injuries reported. Colorado Rockies Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/16/2006 Ryan Speier RP Shoulder Out Out for the season 03/15/2006 Ryan Shealy 1B Elbow Out Out until at least April 03/15/2006 Josh Wilson SS Toe Out Out until May 03/14/2006 Josh Fogg SP Groin Out Out until at least mid-March 03/06/2006 Chin-Hui Tsao RP Shoulder DL 60-day DL. Out until at least June Detroit Tigers Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/16/2006 Matt Mantei RP Oblique Out Out until at least early April 03/10/2006 Craig Monroe RF Quadriceps Questionable Out until mid-March 03/10/2006 Dmitri Young 1B Quadriceps Questionable Out until mid-March Florida Marlins Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return No injuries reported. Houston Astros Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/15/2006 Jeff Bagwell 1B Shoulder Questionable Hoping to be ready for early April 03/13/2006 Danny Klassen SS Knee Out Out until at least mid-March Kansas City Royals Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/16/2006 Bobby Madritsch SP Shoulder Out Out until at least mid-July 03/15/2006 Angel M. Berroa SS Rash Out Out until at least mid-March 03/14/2006 Mark Grudzielanek 2B Back Out Out until at least mid-March 03/13/2006 Zack Greinke SP Personal Out Out until at least early April 03/13/2006 Mike Sweeney DH Ankle Questionable Out until at least mid-March 03/07/2006 Mark Redman SP Knee Out Out until at least early April 03/01/2006 Mike Coolbaugh 3B Wrist Out Out until at least late April 02/02/2006 Ken Harvey 1B Back Out Out until at least July Los Angeles Angels Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/15/2006 Garret Anderson LF Foot Questionable Out until at least mid-March 03/15/2006 Nick Gorneault OF Wrist Out Out until at least mid-March 03/13/2006 Dallas McPherson 3B Oblique Questionable Out until at least mid-March Los Angeles Dodgers Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/16/2006 Ryan Ketchner P Elbow Out Out until at least July 03/16/2006 Derek Thompson SP Elbow Out Out for the season 03/15/2006 Dioner Navarro C Hamstring Out Out until at least mid-March 03/13/2006 Rafael Furcal SS Knee Out Out until mid-March 03/13/2006 Cesar Izturis SS Elbow Out Out until at least June 02/20/2006 Jayson Werth LF Wrist Out Out until at least mid-April
posted by zippinglou at 04:47 PM on March 18, 2006
Milwaukee Brewers Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/15/2006 Rickie Weeks 2B Oblique Out Out until at least mid-March 03/13/2006 Rick Helling RP Elbow Out Out until at least mid-March 03/13/2006 Ben Sheets SP Oblique Out Out until late March 02/05/2006 Dave Krynzel CF Shoulder Out Out until at least April Minnesota Twins Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/13/2006 Juan Rincon RP Elbow Out Out until at least late March New York Mets Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/17/2006 Kaz Matsui 2B Knee Out Out until late March 03/14/2006 Juan Padilla RP Elbow Out Out for the season 03/13/2006 Carlos Delgado 1B Elbow Out Out until at least mid-March 03/07/2006 Pedro Martinez SP Toe, shoulder Out Out until at least mid-March New York Yankees Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/17/2006 Jorge Posada C Illness Out Out until mid-March 03/16/2006 Aaron Small RP Hamstring Out Out until at least early April 03/14/2006 Johnny Damon CF Shoulder Out Out until late March 03/10/2006 Carl Pavano SP Back, shoulder Out Out until mid-April 02/20/2006 Octavio Dotel RP Elbow Out Out until at least mid-May Oakland Athletics Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/14/2006 Frank Thomas 1B Ankle Out Out until at least early April 03/13/2006 Bobby Kielty LF Oblique Questionable Out until at least mid-March 03/07/2006 Rich Harden SP Shoulder Out Out until at least mid-March Philadelphia Phillies Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/18/2006 David Bell 3B Back Out Out indefinitely. Could miss start of season. 03/13/2006 Randy Wolf SP Elbow Out Out until at least mid-July 03/07/2006 Chris Booker RP Knee Out Out until at least mid-March Pittsburgh Pirates Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/16/2006 Damaso Marte RP Shoulder Out Out until late March 03/13/2006 Jose A. Bautista 3B Wrist Questionable Out until at least mid-March 03/13/2006 Bryan Bullington SP Shoulder Out Out until at least June 03/13/2006 John Van Benschoten RP Shoulder Out Out until at least early April 03/13/2006 Neil Walker C Wrist Out Out until late March 03/07/2006 Kip Wells SP Shoulder Out Out until at least July San Diego Padres Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/13/2006 Doug Brocail RP Heart Out Might be out for the season San Francisco Giants Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/16/2006 Jose Vizcaino 2B Quad Out Out until late March 03/15/2006 Armando Benitez RP Knee Out Out until at least mid-March Seattle Mariners Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/13/2006 Willie Bloomquist 2B Finger Out Out until mid-March 03/13/2006 Bobby Livingston SP Neck Questionable Out until mid-March 03/13/2006 Clint Nageotte RP Hamstring Questionable Out until at least mid-March 03/13/2006 Chris Snelling LF Leg Out Out until late March 03/13/2006 Fernando Vina 2B Hip Questionable Out until at least mid-March 12/29/2005 Matt Lawton RF Suspended Suspend Suspended for first 10 days of 2006 season St. Louis Cardinals Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/17/2006 David Eckstein SS Flu Out Out until late March 03/16/2006 Al Reyes RP Elbow Out Out for the season 03/13/2006 Rick Ankiel OF Knee Out Out until late-March Tampa Bay Devil Rays Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/15/2006 Sean Burroughs 3B Back Out Out until mid-March 03/13/2006 Shinji Mori RP Shoulder Questionable Out until at least mid-March 03/06/2006 Luis Rivas 2B Knuckle Out Out until at least late April 01/19/2006 Rocco Baldelli CF Elbow Questionable Hoping to be ready for opening day Texas Rangers Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/16/2006 Brian J. Anderson SP Elbow Out Out until at least mid-July 03/16/2006 Matt Riley RP Elbow Out Out for the season 03/15/2006 Josh Rupe SP Elbow Out Out until late March 03/13/2006 Gary Matthews CF Ribs Questionable Out until at least mid-March 03/07/2006 Francisco Cordero RP Shoulder Out Out until at least mid-March 01/28/2006 Frank Francisco RP Elbow Out Out until at least May Toronto Blue Jays Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/18/2006 A.J. Burnett SP Elbow Out Status uncertain 03/13/2006 Gregg Zaun C Calf Questionable Out until at least mid-March Washington Nationals Updated Player Pos Injury Status Expected Return 03/17/2006 Luis Ayala RP Elbow Out Out for the season 03/16/2006 Cristian Guzman SS Shoulder Out Might be out for the season 03/16/2006 Brian Lawrence SP Shoulder Out Out for the season 03/16/2006 T.J. Tucker RP Elbow Out Out for the season 03/14/2006 Jose Guillen RF Wrist, shoulder Out Out until at least late March 03/09/2006 Ryan Drese SP Shoulder Out Out until at least mid-April Is not really fair to blame the WBC for injuries, when they are bound to happen more so in the regular Spring training. The WBC was a huge success.... Long live it!
posted by zippinglou at 04:47 PM on March 18, 2006
So what? Its not like this same thing could have happened in spring training. It could have happened. Doesn't mean it would have (no matter how many links zippinglou lays out). Spring training and spring training games are not the same as the wbc, as games you actually care about. He easily could have pushed himself in ways he never would have had it only been practice games, which is what spring training is. Instead he chose to go and serve his country. Serve his country? This isn't a war. He chose to play a game for his country. His methods should not be questioned. Sure they should. They should be praised, condemned, dissected and discussed. That's what the site is for, and there's nothing untouchable or holy about choosing to play a game for your country.
posted by justgary at 10:56 PM on March 18, 2006
How many of these injuries can be blamed on the WBC.... From the linked article: The news of Ayala needing Tommy John surgery left the Nationals organization upset with Ayala and Major League Baseball. Weeks before the World Baseball Classic began, the Nationals, according to team president Tony Tavares, appealed to Major League Baseball twice about not allowing Ayala to play for Mexico because the club thought his elbow was not strong enough to play in any games in early March. Tavares said both appeals were denied. The point, zip, is that had Ayala stayed out of the WBC, he would have been brought along at a more appropriate pace in line with his injury and corresponding surgery. The WBC as an entity is not to blame, but I have to side with the Nats on this one.
posted by thatweirdguy2 at 11:47 PM on March 18, 2006
All this tells me is the WBC is a shame. It is a made up event since baseball is no longer an olympic sport. Selig wants baseball spread all over the country so he holds a sporting event with all these countries finest players in the MLB just so these people can open there sports section and read about it on the last page of the paper. The only thing thats kept me interested is how much the US of A has sucked in this thing. Come on we invited the sport lets act like it!
posted by buffalo will never win at 12:03 AM on March 19, 2006
The point, zip, is that had Ayala stayed out of the WBC, he would have been brought along at a more appropriate pace in line with his injury and corresponding surgery. The WBC as an entity is not to blame, but I have to side with the Nats on this one. Exactly. You have to take the injury by itself, in context. Lumping it with a thousand others and claiming it means it would have happened anyway is misguided.
posted by justgary at 12:09 AM on March 19, 2006
Links? what links... I just copied and pasted info... not links... Spring training and spring training games are not the same as the wbc, as games you actually care about. That's the attitude that some Americans fans had toward the WBC hat differed them from the rest of the countries participating. Unlike its ball players, who wanted to win more than anything... ask Derek Lee if he wanted out dispite hurting his shoulder going for a foul ball... Instead he chose to go and serve his country. Serve his country? This isn't a war. He chose to play a game for his country. It's not war, and no one said it was, you made that up... To serve your country you don't need to be at war... In sports, you serve your country for the Honor and Pride! I'm very surprised you have neglected to see this way of serving one's nation. The point, zip, is that had Ayala stayed out of the WBC, he would have been brought along at a more appropriate More appropriate wouldn't have guaranteed anything... KG Jr. and Bonds are examples that despite the appropriate efforts, some injuries are just unavoidable.... Ayala would have probably blown out his tendom regardless even just throwing on the side for the Nationals... To me it was a more honorable way to go: WBC pitching to help defeat the US....
posted by zippinglou at 12:11 AM on March 19, 2006
Links? what links... I just copied and pasted info... not links... Whatever. I misspoke. Excuse me. The point is the same. That's the attitude that some Americans fans had toward the WBC hat differed them from the rest of the countries participating. Unlike its ball players, who wanted to win more than anything... ask Derek Lee if he wanted out dispite hurting his shoulder going for a foul ball... I would respond to this, but I have no idea what that means. It's not war, and no one said it was, you made that up... To serve your country you don't need to be at war... In sports, you serve your country for the Honor and Pride! I'm very surprised you have neglected to see this way of serving one's nation. Serving? If you wanna call it serving, so be it. I'd call it representing your country. It's a game. Ayala would have probably blown out his tendom regardless even just throwing on the side for the Nationals No way to argue this point since there's nothing to back up your claim. To me it was a more honorable way to go: WBC pitching to help defeat the US.... Honor? He may never be the same but hey, you helped defeat the big, bad u.s. so it was worth it?
posted by justgary at 12:39 AM on March 19, 2006
Weeks before the World Baseball Classic began, the Nationals...appealed to Major League Baseball twice about not allowing Ayala to play for Mexico because the club thought his elbow was not strong enough to play in any games in early March. "He was strong enough to pitch on the mound [during bullpen sessions], but he wasn't, in my opinion, ready to go into a game," said Nationals trainer Tim Abraham. "He did not face hitters [before he left for the World Baseball Classic]. Just like any other pitcher that comes into our camp, he was ready to throw batting practice, and that is the next step before getting into a game, which he had not done. So was he ready to pitch in a game? Not when he left. "We cautioned him the whole time. We said, 'Louie, you are coming off surgery. We want you to be healthy for the whole year,' and that's all you can tell him." Ayala had soreness in the elbow in late February and was contemplating not playing for Mexico. But after a week of rest, Ayala declared himself fit to play catch and throw in the bullpen. After a few of those sessions, Ayala decided at the last minute to represent his country. While Ayala was away, pitching coach Randy St. Claire said on Wednesday he was concerned for Ayala because the Mexican team was not using him the way the Nationals prescribed. We told him that the rehab process wouldn't allow him to participate [in the games]," Tavares said. Did you actually read the article zippinglou? Weeks before the tournament the nationals said he wasn't ready. His shoulder was sore before the tournament. He was coming off surgery. He was used differently by the mexican team. This injury didn't come out of nowhere. The nationals aren't complaining after the fact, they complained before. They knew he wasn't ready, said he wasn't ready. The player basically took the risk on his own. The sections I highlighted completely blow up your claim that it could have happened anyway. The nationals knew he wasn't ready and would have taken a far more precautionary approach than the mexican team. So if you want to say beating the u.s. was worth possibly his career, fine. But claiming this was just something that just randomly happened and was probably unavoidable is nonsense. Everything (from the view of those trained to know) points to the fact that he wasn't ready to pitch. Could it have happened anyway? Sure. But he greatly increased his chances by his choice.
posted by justgary at 12:51 AM on March 19, 2006
justgary, I agree with nost of your arguments but have to side with lou on one point, that of serving yiour country. You and I may not see it that way, but obviously some do. Take the Koreans for instance, all of the players on that squad have been exempted from 2 years of mandatory military service for having reached the semi's, that decision impacted 11 of their players... So, at least in Korea, the WBC success ahs been seen as 'Serving their country."
posted by elovrich at 01:41 AM on March 19, 2006
Elovrich, good point. And you're completely right. I spoke from a u.s. point of view, short-sighted on my part.
posted by justgary at 02:10 AM on March 19, 2006
I think that can be two sided. As elovrich pointed out, the Koreans are serving their country. However, the Americans are more representing their country, just like Olympians represent their country in the Olympics. As for the parts about Ayala's injury, I think justgary pretty much summed it up.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 05:33 AM on March 19, 2006
I've really enjoyed watching the WBC games, but I think Ayala's injury is a result of the tournament. There are still pitchers right now in spring training throwing bullpen sessions, simulated games, and only working on certain things while on the mound. They have the luxury of not really having to worry about the outcome. Throwing these guys into heated competition where you know they'll be giving it their all, each and every pitch, has to put a pitcher at much greater a risk. As a reliever, Ayala is called on to pitch a great deal of games during a long season, and this doesn't even take into account all the warming up he does in the bullpen and then may not get called on. I can see future contracts for pitchers requiring they not participate in the WBC just for this reason. Injuries can happen at any time, but MLB teams probably feel better having better control over the variables involved.
posted by dyams at 07:52 AM on March 19, 2006
Regardless of what you think of the WBC, Ayala is the "Employee" of the Nationals and should have heeded thier advice. Since he didn't they should not be liable for his salary. The fact that he is a highly paid employee only makes more plain that they should have to right to dictate the actions of those that they employ.
posted by cpatlj at 08:24 AM on March 19, 2006
Honor? He may never be the same but hey, you helped defeat the big, bad u.s. so it was worth it? Hopefully he will be better when he comes back... Nolan Ryan had some of his best years after the surgery ... a fresh new tendon will be nice! Whether he blew it during the WBC, or would have done it during Spring Training or the regular season, is speculation... but the truth is that if he was weak, then Tommy John was pretty much unavoidable for him to be effective in the long run.
posted by zippinglou at 10:39 AM on March 19, 2006
/begin "beating dead horse" routine: the whole purpose for spring training is to slowly bring along players that have been taking the winter off. it's the equvalent to stretching before running a race, except in this case the race is a 162+ game season, so of course the stretching takes longer. none of the preseason games matter, except for the forementioned "stretching" and assessing the readiness of younger players or ones coming off injury. the gripe that all the owners had with the WBC was that these players would have to rush through this whole period of "stretching" so they could play games that mattered in the WBC. /end "beating dead horse" routine so the long and short of it is: zippinglou doesn't get it. But many thanks for the list of injuries, which will help in my fantasy draft this afternoon!
posted by coryphaeus at 11:03 AM on March 19, 2006
Interesting discussion. I have actually enjoyed watching the WBC, and the seemingly immediate rivalries that have sprung up, especially amongst the latin countries participating. However, the Nationals seem to have gotten the raw end of the deal on this one. Obviously, Selig and the MLB didn't anticipate how to deal with an issue like this. They seemed to be so interested in lending prestige to the WBC, by ensuring that major league players were involved, that they forgot what is the best advertising for the MLB, good teams riding their studs from the start to the finish line in exciting pennant races. If they continue with this WBC experiment, they should at least give the teams the right of refusal for any of their contracted plalyers who are coming off an injury and/or surgery. If the players were healthy and ready to go, then it's their choice. Teams take out insurance for their players contracts, but that doesn't mean that their most vulnerable players should be exposed to unnecessary risks. Spring training, simulated games, bullpen sessions, BP, rehab - these are NECESSARY risks for a player coming off an injury. The WBC wasn't.
posted by bolo165 at 12:35 PM on March 19, 2006
so the long and short of it is: zippinglou doesn't get it. But many thanks for the list of injuries, which will help in my fantasy draft this afternoon! Still, the list proves that % wise, there are more injuries in regular Spring training than in the WBC... so the WBC bashing is not statistically sustainable!
posted by zippinglou at 06:29 PM on March 19, 2006
What's the opposite of reading comprehension?
posted by yerfatma at 06:43 PM on March 19, 2006
What's the opposite of reading comprehension? Reading incomprehension? Zippinglou the point here is that Ayala went to the WBC against the Nationals wishes. While I may not be a trainer, they have now been proven right in that they did not feel he was ready to play at a competitive level. What the Nationals may have done had he not gone to the WBC was bring him along slowly to make sure his injury healed. Would he have missed April and maybe part of May, possibly. But he would still be able to pitch in the rest of the season. You have made your point that there are more injuries in Spring Training than the WBC but that isn't the point of this article. As I've stated above, Ayala's injury can be directly related to his participation in the WBC, something that may not have happened in the controlled enviornment of spring training.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 07:25 PM on March 19, 2006
Zippinglou the point here is that Ayala went to the WBC against the Nationals wishes So did most other players.... But he made his own choice.... Blame Ayala, not the WBC....
posted by zippinglou at 08:37 PM on March 19, 2006
What's the opposite of reading comprehension? Reading incomprehension? .... lol
posted by zippinglou at 08:38 PM on March 19, 2006
I agree that Ayala made his own choice and is to blame but the WBC is directly responsible for why he is now injured.
posted by Ying Yang Mafia at 06:59 PM on March 20, 2006
I agree that Ayala made his own choice and is to blame but the WBC is directly responsible for why he is now injured. Did you ever notice how shooters often get busted for killing somebody, but the guns almost always get off scot free? Where is the justice?
posted by BullpenPro at 09:04 PM on March 20, 2006
At least now the WBC will get some attention from the fans. Isn't that all Bud really wanted?